Home Topics in Depth Economics Should people be paid by education alone, disregarding Country of Citizenship?

  • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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    Should people be paid by education alone, disregarding Country of Citizenship?

    How would people feel about eliminating national origin requirements for work, and eliminating wage differences based on country and gender, and simply paying people by their level of skills and educational attainment?  Allowing people to move and work anywhere they could afford to live?

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    "Out of many, one"

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  • 2 months ago #1
    • Post Removed (826 posts)
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      1. Sure,

      right after we get Bernie in office and he gets free college passed.

      • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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        2. He lost, though, so its not happening. Banks would complain.

        Also, governments cant give away things corporations sell there, thats a theft from their investors.

         

        How would it sit with Harvard or Yale if there was a free Harvard or Yale stealing their customers?

         

        No, i am completely serious and what I am suggesting could still be legal as long as no money is involved. Right now corporations get a right to move their personnel around the world, which is only limited in a few countries like the US (and those limits are likely to end soon) What about having a similar right for real natural people, (not just “natural persons”) and combining it with a right to be treated equally, like National Treatment is for corporations. That way if the poor and uneducated people could no longer afford to live here, they could move somewhere else that was cheaper. Instead of- <no solution>.

        "Out of many, one"
        • Post Removed (826 posts)
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          3. How's it working out for the EU?

          Sounds a bit like right to work. How about we get behind unions instead? Unions have been the only thing that ever helped the working class.

          • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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            17. The EU gives people a right to travel, not just corporations

            what we’re likely going to be getting is corporations having a right to move their cheapest employees here and have them work for nothing.

            "Out of many, one"
        • FanBoy (6226 posts)
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          30. there's never going to be a free harvard or yale. those schools are what they

          are first and foremost because of exclusivity.  that means — no free equivalent.

    • Lynetta (644 posts)
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      4. Need fairy dust to make that work.Anybody can buy education documents abroad and

      BTW. Live in HUD housing. Obama put out money to do remodeling for Hud Housing. They were paying the painters $2.25 hr.  Did not speak English at all and had trouble with our high school Spanish so no chatting. The people doing the siding were Asian. They were paid $5 an hour. The people doing the construction except plumbing, heating and electrical had never worked a construction job before. The supervisors did not know now to read plans and blueprints, did not know about construction materials that would show up and almost everything had to be done at least twice.Then of course the “contractor” ran out of money. My Refrigerator looks like it had been refurbished. The stoves turn the oven cleaning function on with no prompting. Worst things have failed and been replaced and a few of the very old people here did not survive the construction which was done without us totally moving out. Bedrooms were exempt but you had to find somewhere else to be out of the noise and fumes.

      This place was well maintained and my final impression is that they turned a dated silk purse into a sows ear. Looks like the $50 a night hotels now. Building was sold April 1st 2016.

       

      • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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        12. We have had unions but Europe's unions are in some key ways different

        in the sense that the current European workforce are far better protected from neoliberal “reforms” which will be devastating here, or so Saskia Sassen says.

        So the biggest changes are expected to be here.

        "Out of many, one"
    • FanBoy (6226 posts)
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      5. why pay more for education? i say, let those who are interested get the

      education, and for them, simply the opportunity to study and learn is its own reward, plus they’ll likely be better at whatever they’re doing because it’s not a means, but an end.

      pay for the education for the people who want it.  don’t pay more for the jobs.

      • djean111 (2839 posts)
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        9. I agree. This is not fair to those who cannot afford an education in their own

        country, or are hobbled with debt, if they must get student loans.

        You think the only reason that people won't vote for a warmongering Third Way fracking-enabling cluster bomb throwing H-1B increasing lying pandering corporate and Wall Street shill who says she has no problem putting abortion rights on the table is because we are mad about Bernie?  Um, nope.
        • FanBoy (6226 posts)
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          19. One way the ptb keep people out of work is simply by qualification

          inflation; upping the education requirements for jobs that used to have none — now you need an AA or BA to be competitive for lots of minimum wage clerical jobs, for example.  Why?  Two to four extra (expensive) years of schooling to qualify for a minimum wage job?  It’s ridiculous.

        • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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          21. The jobs will go to the people with the education nomatter what

          The people without that formal accreditation of what they know will lose in this game because its written into the agreements. The point is they claim to prevent corruption, quite common in many countries, including our own, where firms pay kickbacks to be awarded a government contract.

          When procurement is internationalized, what’s to prevent the creation of fake desired criteria in RFPs that tailor the requirements to one specific country’s firms?

          So what is being done is that firms suitability to bid on and win contracts must be determined by “objective and transparent criteria” which likely means in part the documented, verifiable formal education of its employees.

          Also, the professional organizations, when they exist, in each profession around the world have been tasked with drawing up “disciplines on domestic regulation” for their profession to facilitate cross-border trade in services.

           

          “Such disciplines shall aim to ensure that such requirements are, inter alia:

          1. based on objective and transparent criteria, such as the competence and the ability to supply the service;
             
          2. not more burdensome than necessary to ensure the quality of the service;
             
          3. in the case of licensing procedures not in themselves a restriction on the supply of the service”.

           

          "Out of many, one"
      • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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        13. Most people cant handle going to college for as long as its going to take to get

        a stable job a few years from now, but some people can. They should get the education, otherwise we’re going to have extremely high unemployment with foreigners doing all the jobs worth doing. Not a good situation if the economy crashes which is not unlikely.

         

        If the economy crashes, and the currency loses value, people who aren’t stuck here, including the imported skilled workforce, will likely leave. Companies who depend on foreign workers will find themselves unable to get people with the skills that once were plentiful here, because of their greed and short sightedness.

        "Out of many, one"
    • snot (632 posts)
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      6. I think you need a couple more criteria, e.g.,

      results, and/or creativity, and/or productivity per hour.

      And I could see local cost of living adjustments.

      Otherwise, yeah.  National boundaries seem to me to function mainly to help TPTB enforce their own agenda.  Similar to serfdom, tying workers to geographic areas, or rendering them “illegal” so as to ensure a supply of cheap labor.

      There is no responsibility, without freedom; no freedom, without power; no power, without knowledge; no knowledge, without love.
      • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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        14. Its up to people to bring what they can to the table. Areas where there is a lot

        going on will always be in high demand to live in because of the work. People who have low or no income are going to need to be able to move somewhere cheap. It makes no sense to give corporations rights to move people around without giving some right to move to those low skill Americans they displace to move to those other countries and work too.  Countries like India claim we owe them jobs because of trade agreements, but there is no reciprocity.

        "Out of many, one"
        • FanBoy (6226 posts)
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          20. people with no/low income ain't moving anywhere for that very reason.

          among others, like they have a family/support system where they are and nothing — not even access to resources like the pioneers had — wherever they might go.

          fuck that crap

          • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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            22. In many areas, like the Bay Area, millions of people who have never lived

            anywhere else, are being forced to move elsewhere because of the high costs of housing. Unfortunately governments put very high values on increasing GNP, say by replacing communities that are not generating lots of wealth for corporate interests with ones who are, but no value on intangibles, such as happiness or stability for families.

             

            "Out of many, one"
            • FanBoy (6226 posts)
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              24. moving costs money. if you don't have it, you go homeless.

              • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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                25. Right, thats the problem. Homeless people also can't vote.

                Since our vote is attached to where we live, if we no longer have a place to live at some point we Americans lose the ability to vote, not having an address.

                "Out of many, one"
                • FanBoy (6226 posts)
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                  27. yep; you basically become invisible once you go homeless. just

                  the way the rulers like it.

                  (invisible until you become subject to police action, that is)

      • FanBoy (6226 posts)
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        18. capital is free but labor isn't. otoh, capital's 'freedom' means labor is moved

        from pillar to post even when it would much rather stay home in its own community.

        capital’s freedom = the constant and repeated dissolving of human community

    • Downwinder (1736 posts)
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      7. Check that out with Bill Gates.

    • djean111 (2839 posts)
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      8. So if you are poor and cannot afford college, you will always be poor?

      Will all countries make going to college cost the same?  Seems fair, if the pay in all countries is going to be the same, depending on that.  Not a well thought out system, or fair system.

      You think the only reason that people won't vote for a warmongering Third Way fracking-enabling cluster bomb throwing H-1B increasing lying pandering corporate and Wall Street shill who says she has no problem putting abortion rights on the table is because we are mad about Bernie?  Um, nope.
      • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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        15. There will always be a few people whgo overcome that.

        But generally, yes, the US and EU have traded places and the EU is now a place of high social mobility and the US is extremely stratified economically and getting much worse quickly.

         

        Also, Just as the door to opportunity is opening to nonwhite Americans because of increased educational attainment they are changing the game and allowing in large amounts of foreign competition, changes that especially will  impact the public sector heavily.

        Who will displace them? We wont be able to tell the subcontractors who to employ, whether men or women, what nationality they are, what they are paid, it will all be between them and none of our business.

        Thats why there should be reciprocal rights so Americans can continue their careers overseas instead of having their careers cut short and finding themselves priced out of the job market.

        "Out of many, one"
      • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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        23. Currently neoliberalism's "fair" is defined as discrimination against corporatio

        If you have a job thats being done using government money even at the local level, soon you will need to put it up for international bidding, and award it to the lowest bidding firm, as long as they are qualified they will get a right to do the work. Qualified likely being defined legally in no small part by the training their organization can demonstrate that they have.

         

        So people who might have worked their way up in companies but have no formal Masters or Doctorate will be out of luck. Back in the day many EEs for example, were self taught or maybe had a BSEE. That still is the case here in the US in smaller companies, but the handwriting on the wall is that to be a global player, which is going to be required because of the new bidding systems, even for bidding on work in your own country (as jobs go away the public sector will be responsible for a growing share of all spending) So college, not just college but more than simply a undergraduate degree, and ideally some strong area of specialization for a worker, a niche, so to speak, that they excel in, will become more and more important.

        Automation will do most work not so very far into the future.

        Because of the way these deals are structured, US companies will have to automate as completely and rapidly as possible to win contracts away from foreign firms with very low labor costs.

        The problem with the people who wrote and signed these deals is they were too focused on the increased profits and too ignorant of the rapid pace of technology adoption.

        They see the jobs which we’re giving up as a trade to developing countries for rights to participate in their economies, and to some extent they are. However the period of time those other countries will continue to grow is much shorter than the decisionmakers here realize, so giving the jobs here away will not buy us much, plus its very much a case of a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush because those other countries will find ways around National Treatment and Most Favored Nation just as we have.

        Plus, they will lose the trust of Americans in our own government. Also the changes will spark an automation race, a push to automate faster so the money can be kept here, rather than paying it to foreign workers to be sent home in remittances.

        Instead, we should dump the WTO deals, dump the new ones in the pipeline, and allow peoples expectations of career potentials to be fulfilled. And we need to totally reverse course, dumping deals like GATS so we can give people public healthcare and public education, or its going to be a truly horrible mess which wont be fixable,  and it could end up really one of the epic fails, the biggest mistakes in human history economically.  Up there with the structurally similar ideologically driven disasters like the Irish Potato Famine and the Great Leap Backwards.   Which all had the same bizarre Social Darwinism element to them as this idiotic ideology does. (In the case of Mao, the Holodormer and North Korea it was in the form of variations on Lysenkoism.. which I see as having structural similarities to the knee jerk trickle down economics of neoliberalism, which despite being debunked again and again in recent years, and basically abandoned by more and more credible economists outside of the US, it still holds sway here, as shown by the long long tenure of the so called Washington Consensus to implement it no-matter what damage it does to our country.

        As we need to be investing in our own country now desperately. People voted for that, not for more deregulation and tax cuts for the wealthy and more secret dealmaking to rob the working people of the country of their jobs, homes and health.

         

        We need to be investing in our country which means we need to dump the trade deals that commit us to privatize everything..

        Our future really depends on how much we are willing to put into investing in our PEOPLE now, or really soon, within at the most fifteen or twenty years,  most people will be unemployed.  It will look like the ghetto where almost nobody has a decent job.

        "Out of many, one"
      • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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        26. The countries that had free college before their WTO accession are under pressur

        to “liberalise” it which is hard to resist when countries like the US are putting pressure on them.  Liberalize meaning privatize irreversibly.

        "Out of many, one"
    • northernsouthern (927 posts)
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      10. Standardized free education then yes.

      Allowing people from countries outside the US to count does favor the scale towards people that go overseas for cheaper degrees like they do in the medical field now to many countries. It seems unfair to let people go to place that teachers get paid less and then return to get paid more. I have never been ok with that aspect of economics …other places do it for less because they have less rights, safety protocols, infrastructure etc. I would say paying everyone the same should be a rule, the H1B visas are used to take jobs away and give them to companies like infosys that pay their people less with lower educations, and then keep them as servants not letting them look for other jobs or bring over family.

      http://www.epi.org/blog/new-data-infosys-tata-abuse-h-1b-program/

      I love everything, this is my signature line by choice it is not censored in any way.

      • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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        16. They cannpt have free higheeducation in the US because of GATS Article I:3(b)(c)

        “For the purposes of this Agreement…

        (b) ‘services’ includes any service in any sector except services supplied in the exercise of governmental authority;

        (c) ‘a service supplied in the exercise of governmental authority’ means any service which is supplied neither on a commercial basis, nor in competition with one or more service suppliers.”

        "Out of many, one"
      • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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        28. I feel that the main reason they are pushing the "mode four"

        is to drastically undercut wages for people in both developed and developing countries which both have serious problems with corrupt leaderships.  By keeping everybody in a state of precariousness and implied impending poverty they prevent any improvements in the state of corruption and allow an ever accelerating looting of the planet to occur despite the fact that technology should be making things easier for everybody, especially working people. Whats happening instead if all that marginal product of work is being skimmed off making a situation that the worlds people absolutely cannot gain one bit of pleasure of security from. Its like we are all being sucked on by a huge parasitic leech which is growing every bit of blood it takes, taking care only not to grow so fast it kills us, but just barely.

        This is bad for business too because business is not being done that could be done were all people given more of the gains back to spend, especially in the form of more time to work on their own skills, which would require shorter working hours.  Progressive companies support their workers in learning, regressive ones don’t.  I believe that the changes that are being made are non-obvious to most of the business community too and if they knew they would not be on board with them. A few bad apples are presenting themselves as working for business but in fact they do not represent its best interests either.   They are truly a rogue global coup attempt to lock down the future into an impossible path which will eventually lead to a global war for no reason because everybody is increasingly in agreement  as to what we need to do,  except for a very few. (and they represent far less than one tenth of one percent of humanity)

        I like the idea of a “Gross National Happiness” measure being the goal, instead of GNP.  Because elevating GNP to a pedestal is always going to result in bad decisions like trading off jobs for phony promises of markets that never materialize (and even if they did, would not create any new jobs).

         

        The Clintons were viewed as very popular in the developing world because of GATS which the US people know literally nothing about. Its easy to become popular if you promise away things which are not yours to give away. Which is what they and GATS and the WTO and especially the newer FTAs do. They give governments more power to change their societies than the people have in fact given them and the only way they maintain it is through very aggressive use of big lies.  If the people of the US knew about GATS and what it does they would be totally outraged.

         

        "Out of many, one"
    • notesdev (1729 posts)
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      11. Cue the fake degree mills

      as if meaningless degrees and credential fraud ain’t bad enough already?

       

      And the self-educated can go what, fuck themselves? If they can afford a broom handle under this regime?

      • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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        29. If they have money they will be okay

        If they save every penny now while they still can, they might be able to last it out. Because it wont last, sooner or later there will be some collapse of this system that cares not one whit for the welfare of its people. And nobody will shed a tear at that point, not even those whose financial interests it claims to be protecting.

        "Out of many, one"