Home Topics in Depth Education Why Is the State of Florida Trying to Destroy its Own Public Schools ?

  • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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    Why Is the State of Florida Trying to Destroy its Own Public Schools ?

    It sounds like an impossibility: the prospect of a state’s government working doggedly to destroy one of the very institutions it is charged with protecting and advancing.Careful and deliberate consideration of legislative and executive actions over the course of the last seventeen years, however, indicate that at least two of Florida’s governmental branches are doing just that. The legislative dismantling of public education in Florida accelerated about six years ago, when the Florida legislature started enacting statutes designed to hasten the demise of Florida’s public schools, as well as the teaching profession itself. By simply ignoring political opposition and public outcry, anti-public education lawmakers have accomplished what many would have considered impossible just a decade ago….Former Florida governor Jeb Bush… is the proud sire of “reform” and “accountability” in Florida. His so-called “A+ Plan for Education” set in motion a cavalcade of dubious education policy initiatives over the next 17 years that have driven public education in Florida into an abyss of neglect and deceptively brokered sabotage.

    Education Corporatization and the Sacrificial Lamb

    Public education has apparently become an issue where Democrats and Republicans seem to be more able than ever to agree. Many Democrats, such as presidential nominee Hillary Clinton, seemed to have tempered their opposition to corporately-driven “reform,” while artfully hedging quasi-promises to protect public education. Campaign contributions are powerful influencers. Corporate PR types have taken the science of disinformation to new heights, and have found that even a fatal disease might be peddled as a panacea.

    The Blueprint for the Destruction of Public Education

    There exists a politico-corporate blueprint for the disassembly of public education. It largely has its origins, as well as its single greatest market, in Florida. The Florida C-Suite has been at this game for almost two decades. Very few of them, if any, have kids in public schools. They do have very large bank accounts, and they want them to get larger….

    http://bigeducationape.blogspot.com/2016/09/why-is-state-of-florida-trying-to.html

    TheNutcracker, MistaP, DamnYankeeInHouston and 3 othersnashvillebrook, djean111, Demeter like this

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    • djean111 (2371 posts)
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      1. Has nothing to do with Florida, per se, just money.

      Easier to do in Florida, perhaps, because most of the fucking “Democrats” are actually Republicans, Third Way, DINOs.

      I believe that a Hillary presidency would accelerate this sort of thing, throughout the United States.

      You think the only reason that people won't vote for a warmongering Third Way fracking-enabling cluster bomb throwing H-1B increasing lying pandering corporate and Wall Street shill who says she has no problem putting abortion rights on the table is because we are mad about Bernie?  Um, nope.
      • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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        3. 2 words: jeb bush. is in florida. and bushes are in the thick of education

        privatization.

        florida = leading edge.  it’s not “just money”

        • djean111 (2371 posts)
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          4. Okay, let's put it another way – it has nothing to do with "Floridians".

          And IMO Jebbie moved here from Texas because the GOP is great at scooping up money here, and the Democratic Party is mostly complicit DINOs.  DWS on down.  Because they can all make boatloads of money.  Florida was sort of a testing ground for the Bush educational software, too.

          You think the only reason that people won't vote for a warmongering Third Way fracking-enabling cluster bomb throwing H-1B increasing lying pandering corporate and Wall Street shill who says she has no problem putting abortion rights on the table is because we are mad about Bernie?  Um, nope.
          • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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            5. jeb moved there because turning florida rightward & drug money

            laundering

            bush educational software (“the cow”) has been bought by districts in California, texas, etc including a by in Louisiana funded by Barbara bush’s donation to the Clinton-bush hurricane Katrina fund specially earmarked for the buy.  it aint just florida.

            the neil bush education venture was funded with a lot of big big money, including money from overseas — another “Clinton foundation” type venture.

            • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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              7. General Agreement on Trade in Services Article I:3

              These lines basically are a test of government activities and if something is completely noncommercial it can continue, and if its not its likely it will have to be privatized – some areas have pecific exceptions but they are threatyned if there is commercial activity in that sector.

              Article I:3 of the agreement states:

              “For the purposes of this Agreement…

              (b) ‘services’ includes any service in any sector except services supplied in the exercise of governmental authority;

              (c) ‘a service supplied in the exercise of governmental authority’ means any service which is supplied neither on a commercial basis, nor in competition with one or more service suppliers.”

              We can thank the Clintons for GATS. Its the reason we cant have public health care or expansion of public education. Its a global thing. Its forcing global privatization and a pulling back of public services and an ending of the concept of investing in society as a public good, instead it frames investing in society as a public bad, claiming that its a taking from corporations- at exactly the time jobs are going away, globally.

              For example, it forced India to give up their fellowships for poor students, there has been a lot of criticism that that will lead to the return of the caste system because many Indians are very poor and cant afford to pay to go to college.

              "Out of many, one"
              • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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                10. not sure what that has to do with the discussion preceding it

                • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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                  12. thats what's privatizing schools

                  those rules, that two line test forces privatization

                  Article I:3 of the (GATS) agreement states:

                  “For the purposes of this Agreement…

                  (b) ‘services’ includes any service in any sector except services supplied in the exercise of governmental authority;

                  (c) ‘a service supplied in the exercise of governmental authority’ means any service which is supplied neither on a commercial basis, nor in competition with one or more service suppliers.”

                  Its in TPP too.. check out the “readthetpp” web site.

                   

                  "Out of many, one"
                  • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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                    13. It may be; but if so, the public is mostly unaware of it and one wonders

                    why everything is being done under the radar.

                     

                    • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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                      16. Its being done under the radar because 1 jobs are going away and 2 GATS

                      Its preparation for the day not far into the future where machines can and do do everything people do so people wont be able to work unless they are literally the best in the world at something new.

                      So the trade deals are transfering everything away from people and governments and turning them into irreversible CORPORATE OWNED rights which should a government dissolve orfail, REMAIN IN FORCE – i.e. tied to the land, not governments for corporations, so these obligations – even revolutions or dissolutions of government cannot reverse trade deals, thats why its so ludicrous for people to think that we’ll be able to reverse it in two or four years..  we wont.

                      All the very wealthy are concerned that automation – because it severs the connection between wealth and work,  will make wealth and the huge gulfs between rich and poor’s life prospects, health, lifespan, etc, unsustainable if they dont eliminate democracy.. So they started 20 years ago, and with GATS they made a lot of big changes but they didnt tell anybody and people dont know its there.. a big part of the new deals is trying to redo GATS so its “legitimate” because GATS and WTO has basically been failing because the US hasn’t gotten what it wanted from poor countries (which include privatization of THEIR public services) and so hasn’t delivered up the jobs to poor countries high skill workers that are its part of the deal.. .

                      The wealthy’s fear is that the end of work will make their wealth seem very illegitimate because it will be so unequal and the automation will make it become far more concentrated very very quickly, the rate is increasing exponentially as is the number of jobs replaced by automation.

                       

                      Maybe they want to push the poor people out of the country- off the map as quickly as possible? Because the changes are happening much faster than anybody who doesn’t work with them realizes. Esp politicians/economists.

                      "Out of many, one"
                      • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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                        17. what is the incentive to automate except to make profit? and since profit

                        ceases almost to exist once all is automated (because few or no workers = no market and no profit even if there were a market, since profit is basically wages held back by capital) — it’s just capitalists buying from other capitalists in a death slog

                      • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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                        18. To free people up from doing really boring things over and over again?

                        So they can spend more time with their families and friends..

                        "Out of many, one"
                      • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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                        22. that's not the incentive of the people doing the automating, obvously.

                        not of the people pushing gats etc either (more or less the same class of people)

                        there’s a disconnect in your vision

                      • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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                        37. People develop new technology because nobody wants to do more work

                        than is necessary.

                        That was the original reason people figured out how to use tools, first simple machines.. “give me a lever and I will move the world” working up to more complicated ones.

                        It still is the best and most important reason for development of technology.

                        People would rather spend that time with their families.

                        Lets not forget that its people that invent things, not corporations.

                        Corporations are a legal fiction.  Also, increasingly, people who invent things don’t stand a chance of being able to keep them, they will be stolen by corporations.

                        I know that fact better than most people.

                        A very large percentage of the people on this planet are not even documented as existing, you know.

                        The system that does that is a system that needs to be retired.

                        "Out of many, one"
                      • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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                        49. Most "people" develop new technology to make money. "People" typically

                        don’t invent things at all, not for a hundred years.  Maybe things like the “Ginza Knife” or the “Slinky”.

                        These days, they’re general lackeys employed by government or business.

                        E.g. most of the internet and computer tech was developed with government funding, and privatized by capital.

                        Same as it ever was, if you know the history.

                      • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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                        50. My father was an inventor. It wasnt his main gig, but he was.

                        And he invented something of importance.

                        A lot of my friends have invented and patented things. Some of them important. Its not that unusual.

                        You are right about DARPA. Thats true.

                        "Out of many, one"
                      • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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                        51. well, show me the percentage data. otherwise, one anecdote does not a

                        summer make.

                      • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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                        52. Inventive environments spawn inventors

                        People are naturally creative.

                        "Out of many, one"
                      • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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                        54. Data trumps platitudes

                      • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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                        57. Dada

                        nt

                        "Out of many, one"
                      • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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                        59. look, i can claim whatever i want to just like anybody else

                        people are naturally creative, sure…but most people don’t even have *access* to materials & tools to invent new technology on a par with what’s in standard use today — let alone knowledge to know what might be useful.

                        Those who do aren’t usually found in home labs and workshops — they know because they already work for facilities who got them access to the knowledge and resources.

                         

                      • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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                        60. Its our choice, we can decide to be stupid (like now) or smart

                        ALL children are naturally smart and curious. (Because their brains are growing really fast)

                        Unless its literally beaten out of them.

                        "Out of many, one"
                      • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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                        64. why are you telling me such things as if you think it's news to me or i would

                        disagree?

                        we started talking about jobs disappearing.  now you’re telling me all kids are smart.

                        we’re on the same page.

                        just, your story about gats and jobs disappearing doesn’t jibe with your storyline.

                      • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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                        61. "Linux"

                        The Raspberry Pi 3 is the size of a credit card, has four cores. Works with any TV that has HDMI and costs $35. It comes with a yuuuge ecosystem of FREE applications including Mathematica (which is a serious math environment for adults that usually costs hundreds of dollars)

                         

                        Another great, brain-expanding ultra-cheap toy/tool are the RTL2832U USB dongles. a 24-1766 MHz software defined radio !   (They basically receive everything in the VHF band and the bottom 2/3 of UHF too.. )  They can be modified to become a HF (shortwave) radio.

                        People do sophisticated science, like radio astronomy, with them.   How much do they cost? Around $7-12

                        "Out of many, one"
                      • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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                        65. how much do they cost and why? slave labor

                      • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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                        69. Automation

                        In the late 1990s a computer with around the same amount of power and RAM cost at least 1500 times that and probably weighed 50,000 times what the RPI weighs. It likely was the size of a small refrigerator.

                        "Out of many, one"
                      • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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                        62. The most creative people I know, got their first computers out of somebody

                        else’s garbage.

                        Myself included.

                        "Out of many, one"
                      • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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                        66. first you tell me all kids are smart, now you prioritize the "most creative"

                        you’re all over the place here

                        what case do you think you’re arguing

      • Rozinante (1620 posts)
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        8. Yes. It's a similar situation as privatizing SS.

        Corporate interests see those large sums of money in the budget, and want to get their greasy palms on it.  It’s also their way to kill the teachers union, who are big Dem backers.

        • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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          14. The Democratic party is a tool of corporate interests and is just as much

          involved in pushing privatization as the pubs — just more hypocritically, since they’re officially the party of the “little guy”.

        • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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          70. YES exactly. Its pretty hard to argue with giving the poor countries jobs

          Its really going to suck for teachers/nurses etc. “Train your replacements or you don’t get your last three months pay”

          "Out of many, one"
    • N2Doc (1973 posts)
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      2. Just trying to get back to Separate but Unequal

      The whites will have their schools, while minorities (except the athletically gifted) will be herded into decrepit public schools.

      "But nothing ever changes unless there's some pain" - Tears For Fears "Goodnight Song"
      • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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        9. "Progressive Liberalisation" is one way privatization and its supposed

        to be helping the developing countries firms.. at least that is the cover story..

         

        High educational levels are what matters. Also, concessions in educational services or any other service sector that commands large numbers, are a sort of currency in trade negotiations..

        “Mode Four”  – a better word is its a potential “balancing factor” in trade negotiations..

         

        So, in a way its a quite positive thing for there to be diversity of national origin as well as race ,  but I think its not a good thing because foreign workers here inh the US should be paid what they are worth and its even more important that good – competent workers not be displaced just because of lower wages being able to be paid to subcontractors than Americans.

        And because some groups want more leverage with the developing countries.

        Women will likely also lose out I suspect. I don’t know.  Its a potentially difficult situation that will likely really stun a lot of Americans. We’ve largely been insulated from the pressures we see in manufacturing in services up until now.  Think of the changes as sort of like bringing NAFTA’s dynamic to service jobs.

        If educational conglomerates move in they will probably gain their foothold one school at a time.

        I don’t know the percentage of women teachers who work for these firms. I suspect its more men than women who travel to the other side of the world under Mode Four but I dont know.

        "Out of many, one"
        • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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          23. High educational levels are what matters

          actually, that’s complete BS.  The people pushing globalization don’t want a highly educated workforce.

          almost everyone is going to lose.  there’s nothing new under the sun though we keep being told it’s all new.

          there’s a disconnect in your vision.

          • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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            29. "Workforce?"

            Well, jobs are going away, globally, a lot faster than the politicians could ever “get”, and even when jobs dont “go away” they will “go away” by being done over the network by somebody in a country with low wages. There is not a single job with the exception of prostitution, which cannot be done that way.Fast networks/low latency means that even jobs which we see as requiring physical presence somewhere can be done by means of some telepresence arrangement.  What that will do is lower wages globally to very low levels and then there wont be any resistance to automating them fully because the pay will be so low that the money wont matter.

            The net result of this is we have to change our priorities and our whole society – shift away from money. Money will lose its usefulness in this world.

            Also, the children of the rich, being distracted, will rarely if ever become good enough to be employed at the things which need to be done. What motivates great scientists is altruism or flow, satisfaction of doing something new or amazing or incredibly creative. Professional pride.

             

            We have to face the fact that we’re headed into a future characterized by people having much more time. What we’re seeing is the last moments of one system, a system that has served us well but its business models are rapidly being exposed as broken.

            The workplace of the future will be a research campus, not a sweatshop nor a factory with hundreds of busy humans swarming over expensive machines.

            So unless somebody has really substantial creative skills, (better skills than simply a desire to make more money is going to be able to motivate out of people) the likelihood is that within a very few years they and other people with that similar level of skills, just wont be needed. Yes, eventually (maybe 30 years into the future from today) 75% of humanity will be unemployed, with little if any part time work, And then 85%.. and then 90%

             

            "Out of many, one"
            • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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              32. Who is this "we" you're talking about? Your whole exposition presumes there

              are two groups: workers who are being fucked, and another group (i.e. capital) who is fucking them.

              You can’t make those two groups into a “we” who suddenly cares about the bad effects on workers.

              And capital can’t profit without stealing from labor; without labor, it’s just groups of capitalists selling shit to each other at no profit.

      • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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        15. you're behind the times; "whites" per se will not have "their schools". All

        the poor and a good section of the former middle class are joining “minorities” (except the “talented 10th of tokens”) in the scrap heap.

        Not needed anymore.

        • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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          30. Unless they create a job or society that needs them

          themselves.

          "Out of many, one"
          • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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            33. With what resources? With what army? Your exposition presumes it's endgame.

            • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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              34. I was just saying that people are worthwhile

              The people telling the excluded groups that they cant participate are doing it for their own ulterior motives.

              "Out of many, one"
              • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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                38. Yes, of course they are, just like they are making all these global trade deals

                for their own ulterior motives, just like they’re monopolizing all the resources people need to live for their own motives, just like they’re making wars all over the world and burning up resources for their own motives.

                 

                If you recognize that, my question is:  how do you make the scenarios you’ve laid out come together?

                • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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                  46. If we were to eliminate GATS, and just dump all the pending/planned ones

                  and fend off Indias’s attempt to force us to “facilitate” opening of our big service markets to their professional permatemp firms.. (a big if) If we did that, that would eliminate the commitments to privatize them and then, only then could we fix healthcare without the really horrible changes that they want, and restore a future for public education.

                  Example Link on how GATS changed public higher education

                  People need to understand that the large numbers of jobs in some of these service sectors are likely seen very callously as bargaining chips in a big game.

                  That was the very first description of how these things worked that I was ever given and its a good one. It was from a Canadian trade negotiator and his wife who I met many years ago. They lived in Vancouver on a boat.

                  Lots and lots of US jobs might be committed to be traded away in exchange for rights to do things like buy up the competition’s companies.

                  Leading to things like higher drug prices.

                  I think the secrecy of these deals makes it likely that the things traded are likely to be things which they don’t want seeing the light of day.

                  Like the Yalta cocktail napkin that divided up postwar Europe.

                  "Out of many, one"
                  • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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                    55. Again, who/where is this "we" who's going to do this? Your proposed

                    solution begs the real question.

                    “People need to understand” = but they don’t.  So where is that understanding to come from?

                    “bargaining chips in a big game” = as well as people’s bodies, minds, property and lives.

                    “the secrecy of these deals makes it likely that the things traded are likely to be things which they don’t want seeing the light of day” = obviously.  And keeps any opposition (“we”) that might arise from forming except for a few isolated geeks and malcontents, easy to eliminate or ostracize.

                     

                    • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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                      56. I don't have any solutions. I did not propose any solutions

                      I was just passing on what a trade negotiator (a very nice fellow) and his wife who my then sweetie and I met while wandering around in a heavily touristed part of our town, and we went out to dinner together..  it must have been more than 15 years ago He told me trade negotiations were about trading jobs when I asked him what he did. He told me that jobs were like poker chips. They increased your leverage with the other side. Not being one of the 600 firms and 6000 lobbyists, I can only guess whats going on. You’re best advised not to listen to me because I’m opinionated.

                      "Out of many, one"
      • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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        19. The powers that be want to get out of providing education

        Because of “the singularity” (which we’re not really grokking as a society but should because its the future, and its not going away.) the skills bar to employment is rising at an exponentially increasing rate –  and more and more people won’t make the cut and so not so many years into the future will be unlikely to be working for them or anybody else, ever, the powers that be don’t see any need to educate more than the bare minimum. “Just gives people unrealistic expectations” is how one person put it to me.

        "Out of many, one"
        • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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          25. What is "the singularity"?

          I don’t see any singularity, just more of the same old crap:

          A large, low-paid “low-skilled” working class

          A high-paid, supposedly “highly skilled” administrative (buffer suckup) class

          A small ruling class who owns everything

          Same as it ever was

          There have only been a few times in modern history it was much different

          But there’s no profit without exploited labor, because that’s the source of profit

          So if you’re saying no one will be working, capitalism will be dead

          But you said automation would take place to save people (presumably workers?) from deadly boredom

          There’s a disconnect in your story

          besides which, the “ptb” are VERY interested in providing education.  just not free, universal (democratic) education.  More like for profit education paid for out of taxpayer funds, to suck the last dime out of the population (for a generally inferior result, btw)

          • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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            26. You're reading a lot into what I said that I had not intended.

            Okay, lets just state a fact, computer power buyable for any given amount of money doubles every one and a half to two years. And that interval is getting shorter too. Something similar is happening to global network bandwidth available for any amount. International network bandwidth.

             

            What does that do to work and working and wages in a low income country if fast networks become available? What does it do in a high income country?

            "Out of many, one"
            • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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              28. Reread. I didn't read anything into what you wrote. I asked a question:

              what’s a singularity?

              and said *I* didn’t see a singularity, just the same old crap.

              as for your question:

              “What does that do to work and working and wages in a low income country if fast networks become available? What does it do in a high income country?”

              it does the same thing that technological advances have always done to the labor/capital relationship.  it upsets them.  It’s not the only factor in the mix.

              What does it do when there’s no labor or consumer market to exploit (which is what happens in your scenario)?

          • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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            48. Suppose there are only 15-20 years more of work, if that, before something is fu

            But your opponents don’t know that and think that getting a right to service some market “forever” is immensely valuable.

            On the other hand, I can see how the powers that be might not want to invest in education if they didnt see it leading to employment directly as it did in the past. Instead, why not rent educated people from somebody else. But the problem is, if the economy has problems, and you know that with the Clintons, it will, big ones. (Trump too) once things go south, all your skilled people leave.  Also, and this is the big one, what does it tell your countrys people to stab them in the back by temping out the good jobs. They cannot be honest about that so if history is any guide they will find some skapegoat to blame it on and milk that for all its worth, rather than tell the truth about GATS.

            Also, what if there is no fut7ure for skilled people here any more because we have modern day slave labor temps.. Our best people will likely move to Europe or Asia so they can raise families like normal people. What happens then? Suppose the Ponzi scheme collapses and austerity kicks in and peoples pay is based on a six year contract, is not re-negotiable, and that money suddenly is worth less at home, the “temporary service providers” as the Indian press calls them – might not stay?

            "Out of many, one"
      • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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        53. Poor is the new Black

        Black people, especially women, have made huge strides in educational attainment. Black women are rapidly becoming one of the best educated groups in the country.

         

        I was very surprised to see that but apparently its the case and they deserve kudos for it.

         

        "Out of many, one"
        • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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          58. "Black" was just the justification for keeping a large group of people poor.

          And whatever you may have heard about black women, black people as a whole are still poor.

          http://stateofworkingamerica.org/fact-sheets/african-americans/

          It’s just that today, a lot more white people have joined them in poverty.

          • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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            63. Read up on GATS

            Nothing has changed. But neoliberalism or ClintonTrumpism is much more sophisticated now.

             

            "Out of many, one"
            • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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              67. Read up on Marx. Nothing has changed.

    • madfloridian (973 posts)
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      6. Not just Florida.

      It’s about privatizing the public schools as another way for corporations to make big money.   They are using extreme testing to cause schools to fail so they can turned over to private companies to run.

      It is not just Florida, and it’s not just Republicans.

      Democrats have take the education policies of GWB and made them flourish.  Bush could never have made such progress because the out of power Democrats would not allow it.

      But now that Obama is president, and since he appointed Arne Duncan in 2009….charter schools have flourished.  They are not held accountable, they do what they want.

      That’s big money for you.  They are the playground bullies…they win.

      If a person is required to be loyal to a political party and not question their stands on issues, then any semblance of real truth is lost. https://twitter.com/madfloridian
      • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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        11. democrats are actually leading the charge — (cough bill gates). republicans

        much less so — some are actively opposing privatization (though not on the same grounds we might)

        • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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          20. Huh?

          Thats not true.. ALL Republicans Ive ever met want massive privatization. Clinton and Obama and their ilk are Neoliberals which means  secret Republicans (of course)  Which can be illustrated by what they do behind closed doors.

           

          Which is not what they claim to be for, its the opposite.

           

          "Out of many, one"
          • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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            24. you haven't met enough republicans. like democrats, they come in different

            flavors.

            • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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              27. Will they see support of school privatizations by GOP to have been a mistake?

              Thank you for saying that. I agree, not all Republicans – just like not all Democrats, are the same.

               

              >you haven’t met enough republicans. like democrats, they come in different flavors.

              I made a much longer response to your post here which I removed and am going to turn into a separate post.. because it is a topic in depth.. on the subject of exponential changes in technology and their impact on our need for education and also in how we will need to shift away from money because money wont be enough to motivate people to be the very best in their fields which increasingly is what will be required to get a job in a world where there are very few jobs.. SO its not really the same thread..

              Thinking about it, I think that once they realize whats happening to jobs and why, we’re all going to be on the same page about this.

              "Out of many, one"
              • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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                31. I understand what you're saying about increases in computer power etc.

                but reading history, I don’t see the same “singularity” you do.

                and reading marx, if indeed 95% of workers are turned into non-workers, that means capitalism and profit end.

                and they’re never going to all be “on the same page” as you, for many reasons.

                 

                • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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                  35. I am not really thinking about politics

                  The changes that are happening are politics-agnostic. Politics and the things politicians do don’t have much of an impact on this. A big part of the changes are empowerment of people by knowledge of which technology is a part. Basically the more we learn, the faster we learn and do more.

                  As far as basing the rate of change in the future on the rate of change in the past, thats an extremely common mistake and its always wrong.

                  Think of an exponential curve. The present is where the curve meets the elbow of the backwards L.

                  Depriving people of education wont necessarily slow down this change either. Its just cutting off your own nose to spite your face.

                   

                  "Out of many, one"
                  • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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                    39. Everything is politics, from family relationships to global relationships.

                    If there are few to no jobs (which is the scenario you’re laying out) what’s the need of education (in the eyes of the ownership class?)

                    You said it yourself “it just gives them overly high expectations”.

                    That’s what bloody “charter schools” (i.e. computerized prison schools) are for.  To suck local resources back into the hands of the ownership class while providing a simulacrum of “education”.

                    • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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                      41. Productivity increasing is a good thing.

                      Also, I am not arguing with you.

                      Under their “global value chains” model everybody all around the world is supposed to compete with one another and be able to be transfered across borders by corpoations that employ them to drive wage costs as low as possible, but at the same time, corporations signing these deals want to not compete with one another to keep prices as high as possible (like with life saving Rx drugs and patent term extensions, and also more generally with businesses of any description) when their profits are involved.

                      I don’t have any solution for all this. All I am saying is that we should be discussing these deals. It should be illegal to steal peoples votes under false pretenses.

                      "Out of many, one"
                      • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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                        44. I understand you're not arguing for it; but you're accepting a lot of the

                        premises of the enemy as set in stone fact while simultaneously (seemingly) accepting romantic scenarios for remediation.

                • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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                  36. The people being "turned into non workers" doesnt have to happen

                  An alternative approach is represented by the Maker movement, which is empowering all sorts of new ideas which often will turn into commercial ventures if given a chance.

                  Everything thats made by technology with few exceptions gets cheaper naturally. And people should have a right to enjoy what they have earned and that includes the gifts we’ve collectively created by developing the sum total of human technology. That wealth should be shared.

                  So trying to use sneaky trade deals to increase the prices of drugs and take affordable housing off the market for well connected developers by increasing the price of energy, in order to churn/cheat people out of the value they have created in their communities, are both really theft, and should be seen as crimes.

                  "Out of many, one"
                  • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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                    40. I'm guessing you are young. You don't seem to understand that there is a

                    class system in this country, and in the world, and the ownership class mostly runs everything, even things that you wouldn’t think, on the surface, that they run, including a lot of “movements” designed to drain ordinary folks’ energy into dead ends.

                    If you really think the owners are going to let ordinary people take their power without a significant fight, you need to think through your self-contradictory scenario a bit longer.  “People should have a right” is not a meme the owners recognize; they recognize only their own unassailable rights.

                    That’s what the whole trade deals/globalization thing you laid out is about:  THE RIGHTS AND PRIVILEGES OF CAPITAL.

                    They couldn’t give a fuck about ordinary people’s rights, or how many ordinary people their power games kill.  They see you and I like you and I as disposable.  Maybe some of them cry crocodile tears, like most Americans cry crocodile tears over the literally MILLIONS of folks just in Africa that the US is killing.  But not enough to do even one thing about it.

                     

                    • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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                      42. Its not personal, they dont hate people, they often just dont see themselves

                      as having any choice because of competitive price pressures.

                      IMHO, we should have a safety net and it should be the governments responsibility to deal with essentials. They should stop pretending we’re in a temporary “recession” and be honest with people, the world is changing, fast, and we should try to adapt. The EU (central) government admits this is happening,, why cant the US government admit it?

                      "Out of many, one"
                      • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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                        45. low-level capitalists have price pressures. high-level capitalists mostly dont

                        they create price pressures; they OWN capital, and the money-creation process: they OWN “MONEY”

                        This recession, like nearly every other recession/depression/panic that’s ever been, is a creation of capital, not a spontaneous happening caused by impersonal forces.

                        Not a question of “hate” (why does everyone always go to “hate”?)  Of course not.  I’m sure you don’t hate the millions of people in Africa your government is killing either.  You just don’t give enough of a rip to lose your own seat.

                        The PTB can easily tolerate the annihilation of millions; they’ve done it before and they will again until people get a clue.

                    • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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                      43. There is no magic difference in species that makes rich people rich

                      Its luck as often as not, people who are born wealthy often don’t realize how many advantages that gives them.

                      There are evil people behind the trade deals but they are not a large number of people, they are a very tiny percentage of people. Reading the Wikileaks emails I realized even most of HRCs own staff and people like Donna Brazile, have not even the smallest inkling of what she’s doing. The whole future world is being taken over and made into an unworkable nightmare for almost everybody rich or poor, by means of a few peoples sleazy, sordid trick.

                       

                      But a lot of work has gone into it, literally 25 – 30 years of planning.

                      "Out of many, one"
                      • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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                        47. Of course there is, just like there's a magic difference in your hometown that

                        puts some people “in power” — it’s typically connections, including generational connections and geographic connections to other power centers; and capital stock.

                        Not a universal, but close enough to do well gambling on percentages.

                        Or look at the Clintons:  bill was a bright young lad, but he wouldn’t have got half as far without connections to some very big league players and his (generational) knowledge of same.

                        and the Clintons are one of the few big-league families in power today that are first-generation.

                        big capital, when you actually do due diligence instead of believing in the fantasies of forbes magazine and that ilk, is even worse.

                        and of COURSE the rich understand their advantages.  THAT’S WHY THEY WORK SO HARD AND CONSTANTLY TO KEEP AND EXPAND THEM.

                        You must be very young or very idealistic.

                      • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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                        68. you never respond to anything. you have a story that just doesn't jibe

                        all these creative types, increasing productivity just so people won’t have to work so hard…

                        and these trade negotiators, trading jobs to render workers obsolete (and resourceless)

                        but it’s not because they’re bad people

                        it’s just incoherent, this story

                        and when it gets to that point, you start talking unicorns

                      • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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                        71. They dont trade jobs to render people obsolete

                        They trade jobs to get something else. Right to be treated like a local company..or buy local companies as if they were from that country. Read up on “service schedules”, “Most Favored Nation” and “National Treatment”

                        "Out of many, one"
                      • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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                        72. They render people obsolete regardless of the why; and they don't give a shit

                        It’s no different from “we had to destroy the village in order to save it” or Maddy Albright “We think the price (killing foreign children) was worth it”

                        They’re killing people.  But they’re not doing it with the direct aim of killing people, it’s just collateral damage, so it’s ok, right?

                         

                        This is fucked up rationalization man

                      • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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                        73. Its not okay, I never said it was

                        Again and again, FanBoy, you are confusing my trying to explain their thinking with endorsing things. I don’t support any of the things you accuse me of.  I am totally a pacifist and I think we need to figure out a better road than the one we are, one which makes the future better. For everybody.  You and me both. All of us. Rich and poor, smart and not so smart.

                        The path we’re on now will make the entire planet miserable. And will not result in anybody reaching their full potential, ever. Not even the people who are bringing it to pass. they are likely to be the most miserable of all. because it leads them nowhere good, fast.

                        Please stop replying to my posts in such an accusatory manner.

                        I am getting the impression you’re trying to mis-frame everything I say.

                        I am just going to stop replying to you.

                        "Out of many, one"
                      • FanBoy (4561 posts)
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                        74. I'm stating my vision of facts, same as you. Which include the fact, as

                        I see it, that your explanation has inconsistencies and an overly generous vision of “the rich”, + a resort to certain right-wing talking points

                        To which you never reply regardless

      • Akallabeth (2140 posts)
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        21. Another reason- Intntnl trading jobs to use them for leverage internationally.

        Public spending equals potential jobs which we should think of as a form of money.. or “water” in trade lingo (not exactly the same thing but close) bargaining chips that could be traded away via GATS Mode Four IF the price was right..

        Other countries want those high perceived value jobs a great deal.. They are ready to help us address our labor shortage.. (cough)

        So, by giving away jobs they get leverage over other countries they don’t have now. leverage in areas like getting rid of generic drugs.. a major desire of the US drug industry. Healthcare, education, IT, construction, all those jobs are bargaining chips in the global game.  Plus the profits will be a lot higher when the wages are lower..

        The other stuff is just the means to getting those jobs onto the table.

        "Out of many, one"