12 Experts Questioning the Coronavirus Panic

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    • #292913
      joentokyo
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,026

      https://off-guardian.org/2020/03/24/12-experts-questioning-the-coronavirus-panic/

      In my humble opinion, we are being taken for a ride in order to advance a political agenda, and fill the pocket of money hungry researchers. I urge you to check this article out.

      “A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves” ~ French philosopher Bertrand de Jouvenel (1903-1987)

    • #292919
      N2Doc
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 7,559

      Report back with how much of a hoax this all is…

      And looking at the ‘article’ -SHAME on the off-guardian. This is right out of the climate denier playbook- find some disgruntled and jealous people, many not specialists in the field, to whine and use outdated/misleading statistics to comaplain about how scientists are using a crisis to enrich themselves. You ewanna know who is getting rich off of this crisis? Look at the ‘stimulus’ bill CONgress just passed and what the fed reserve is doing.

      • #292923
        Hamlet
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 35

        They are saying that the RESPONSE by government is unnecessarily Draconian and their quotes are in line with this theory.

        The Conspiracy Theorist in me notes that even if the sickness wasn’t launched on purpose, the PTB was already prepared with massive bailouts for businesses as if they were waiting for such a moment to arrive.

         

        • #292925
          carrotguy
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 482

          some of the statistics quoted in the off-guardian article seem specious on first glance.   comparing the rate of spread in Hubei might not be a fair comparison if i understand correctly.  they had the city locked down pretty tightly i think

      • #292940
        joentokyo
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,026

        N2Doc

        They just said it was being over hyped, and that this outbreak was no more unusual than other outbreaks of influenza or related diseases.

        Also check this out,

        “A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves” ~ French philosopher Bertrand de Jouvenel (1903-1987)

      • #293042
        reorg
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 17

        You obviously don’t know anything about them and didn’t even peruse the information provided in the OffGuardian article, especially the subtitled videos with interviews and statements. Prof. Dr. Bhakti and Dr. Wodarg are neither ‘disgruntled’ nor ‘jealous’ (of what exactly?) and they actually know what they are talking about, in stark contrast to some anonymous posers on the web and a number of mainstream journalists with no particular expertise in the respective fields (epidemiology or virology).

        Here is the German website where Dr Wodarg provides ample material to support his objections:

        https://www.wodarg.com (in German)

        Dr. med. Wolfgang Wodarg is an internist, with special expertise as pneumologist, and was the head of a health department for many years.

        From 1994 to 2009 he was a member of the Bundestag for the SPD, where he was the initiator and spokesman for the Ethics and Law of Modern Medicine Committee on Inquiry. He was also deputy group leader in the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe and chairman of the subcommittee on health there.

        Now he is retired (73) but still works as a university lecturer in Berlin and Flensburg and on a voluntary basis, among other things, as a board member at Transparency International Germany.

        IOW he is a widely recognized professional and political expert and his arguments are rational and clear.

        http://www.wodarg.com/vorstellung/

        https://www.wodarg.com/vorstellung/ausführlicher-werdegang/

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Wodarg

        Prof Bhakti is a retired professor and was director of the Institute for Medical microbiology and hygiene in Mainz, Germany (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sucharit_Bhakdi; https://www.unimedizin-mainz.de/medizinische-mikrobiologie-und-hygiene/startseite/uebersicht.html.

        On his YouTube channel you can find an interview (and two updates from 22 March, with English subtitles):

        https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgjxQLDkeoa-uJu4sE0eNrg

        Another expert is Prof. em. Prof. hc. Dr. rer. nat. Karin Moelling, Director em. of the Institute for Medical Virology in Zurich (http://moelling.ch/wordpress/karin-molling/). She is also  an outspoken critic of the current hyper’activism’ and panic (discussion in German mainstream TV channel Phoenix, unfortunately without English subs: https://youtu.be/qDPQTqvMoFY?t=592)

    • #292921
      carrotguy
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 482

      to take the word of some of the contributors, the plan to get as many people back to work as possible is well-founded.  practically speaking i think that’s hard to do, without allowing the spread of the disease to occur naturally.   it seems really infectious.   IMO any over-reaction in the US or in the rest of the world is due partially to china’s response to the disease and i don’t think china over-reacted due to some ulterior motive.

       

      the spread of the disease and risk of medical resource overuse justifies some of these measures IMO, but time will tell and i’d love to be wrong.   there is a website and mobile phone app that my RN sister recommended some time ago – http://www.figure1.com.   health professionals use the app to post case histories and get feedback from other users.    they have a COVID-19 section and 30-40 year olds getting struck hard happens in some cases.    the attached image is unrelated to these cases

       

      28M previously fit and well, not on any regular medications, presented with a 6 day Hx of fever, non-productive cough and SOB for the last 4 days. His symptoms started as sore throat and coryzal symptoms 8 days prior to his presentation and he reported contact with a friend with similar symptomatology.

      O/E T39.1 HR87 BP119/63 RR38 SpO2 90% on RA. Bilateral nasal crepitations without a wheeze.

      Image 1 – CXR on admission
      Image 2 – haematology, biochemistry on admission and serial gases
      Image 3 – CXR post intubation in the critical care setting
      Image 4 – the reason for this unfortunate young man requiring critical care.

       


       

      Patient 1977/Male, went on a ski trip in Italy. Came back 08.03.2020. The first signs started after 10 days with temp 40*C, dyspnea, coughing, headache. Went to the testing centers and came positive for COVID-19. Blood work-up is not so dramatic with a very low CRP and PCT. The rtg thorax shows signs of atypical pneumonia. Patient had problems breathing. Without O2 88% with 2L O2 97%. After the first day, the patient was transferred to the ICU and intubated.
      No illness history, non-smoker, fit.

       

    • #292929
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,606

      @joentokyo

      A short time ago.  I’m going with @n2doc on this one.

      Are the corporations and global elites using the pandemic to financially rape the world?  Yes, it is what they do.  Is the virus a hoax?  No.  Is it being taken too seriously? I dont think so – over ten thousand new cases are being reported daily just in the U.S.  Over thirteen thousand yesterday alone.

      https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

      The bailout for the wealthy sickens me – but the pandemic is real enough.  Ask any Doctor or nurse in New York.  Or the CDC or WHO.

    • #292958
      Punxsutawney
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 1,712

      https://www.propublica.org/article/a-medical-worker-describes–terrifying-lung-failure-from-covid19-even-in-his-young-patients

      If this had a 20% fatality rate it would be the modern equivalent of the Black Death. And a lot of people that get serious cases end up with permanent lung damage if they do survive, meaning possibly disabled for the rest of their lives.

      The sociopaths running things do what they do. Work things to their advantage however they may. They have well paid teams of lobbyists set to do just this. And you have an entire political party and a good portion of the other just willing to do whatever they can to please them.

      In America, “Liberty” means “Free to Die in Service of Capital” - Amfortas the hippie

    • #292964
      Fasttense
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 865

      Most of them created strawman and argued against imaginary hysterics. Most of them made bold ass assertions without any information or they quote death and infection rates back in Feb or early March, before the virus reached its cluster, cluster boom stage in the US. They get the death rates wrong, they do not consider all the deaths and infections that have not been recorded. If this is just another simple flu, why are hospitals throughout the US being overwhelmed. Are there that many hypocobdriacs? And why are state health experts asking for mortuary assurance. That doesn’t happen with the flu.

      They are irresponsible and will get people killed. I suggest each of them go visit LA, Washington State, New Orleans, or even New York all clusters of infections as predicted. They should walk around, shake hands, visit hospitals, tell the sick they are hysterics. They should visit Madrid and look at those abandoned nursing homes and tell those suffering patients it is all in their elderly brains.

      The stupid side of America is really showing through here. Instead of coming together like in Czechoslovakia. Idiots with limited understanding are saying “Oh don’t worry, it’s all a hoax, we all need to go back to work at our minimum wage crappy little  jobs and shopping at Walmart.” That way the filthy rich can go back to looting our national wealth at a more gentlemanly pace.

      Do these so called experts want us to visit a church on Easter too?  Let’s all go and spread the virus to all those older folks who flock to churches and religious ceremonies. This propaganda is just more crap made up by Trump worshippers. Let’s hope worshipping an idiot will make you a non symptomatic carrier like Typhoid Trump himself.

      Sorry for the rant but stupid and using stupid to make decisions really gets my goat…and I have 6 of them.

    • #292965
      incognito
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,866

      with this virus and too many have died in a short amount of time for this to have been blown out of proportion.

      And… those “experts” are being irresponsible and endangering lives. IMCPO

      I’m following my gut. It has gotten me to 64 years old and I trust it and I trust the doctors who have spoken the truth about this virus… like Dr. Fauci. And I trust Bernie.

      I’m going nowhere until there’s an all-clear from someone I trust.

      The stock market is NOT MORE IMPORTANT THAN HUMAN BEINGS. Remember that.

    • #293003
      Yanath
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,342

      You can really see a difference in the quality of the readers of that site, reflected in the comments. Often, I feel depressed after reading comments at mainstream sites.

      Thanks for posting.

    • #293012
      NV Wino
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 5,236

      It’s that they did not act soon enough. It’s that prevention, testing and response facilities have been defunded and/or dismantled.

      Are we being taken for a ride? You betcha. But it’s not because this pandemic is not serious. It’s because there is a small, elite element in our society that seizes opportunities such as this to squeeze more profit out of the system to the detriment of the masses.

      “As we act, let us not become the evil that we deplore.” Barbara Lee
      “Politicians and pro athletes: The only people who still get paid when they lose.” William Rivers Pitt

    • #293018
      Fasttense
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 865

      We had an inbeded in China who could have insured we would fight the disease over there instead of now fighting it over here. But Trump fired her 5 months before the virus hit.

      The virus is basically just running wild in the US. The numbers are exponential and are not plateauing or decreasing. The only folks who won’t get infected, sick or die are those who stay inside, wear masks and gloves and be smart.

      But if you think you are immortal, selfish or never get sick, you too can be like Typhoid Trump making everyone sick around you.

      Our economy did not need to crash. We did not have to have a virus spreading exponentially. We did not have to have our hospitals overwhelmed. If Trump had done something instead of nothing, we wouldn’t be in this situation today.

    • #293314
      FloridaProg
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 312

      I would weigh what they have to say with those who disagree with them. The answer lies somewhere in-between.

      This was an interesting development:

      https://www.newscientist.com/article/2238578-uk-has-enough-intensive-care-units-for-coronavirus-expert-predicts/

      Neil Ferguson, the scientist who was predicting massive death (predicted 2.2 million Americans and half of all Britons would die) just a few weeks ago and saying the world should go into an 18 month lock down, has walked it back and is now saying the worst of this will be over in 2-3 weeks in the UK. In fact, he has said the total deaths should be around 50,000 in the UK which is lower than the number who usually die during flu season.

      Essentially, what has happened is that estimates of the virus’s transmissibility have increased, which implies that many more people have already gotten it than we realize, which in turn implies it is less dangerous.

      It also highlights the danger of listening to early predictions, especially those that emphasize doomsday scenarios.

    • #295219
      reorg
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 17

      Sequel: … ten more expert voices, drowned out or disregarded by the mainstream narrative, offering their take on the coronavirus outbreak.

      https://off-guardian.org/2020/03/28/10-more-experts-criticising-the-coronavirus-panic/

      Ah, forgetaboutit, just a few disgruntled nincompoops, probably.

    • #295232
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,606

      @reorg

      Seems to me that the foremost experts in the world are very concerned about the coronavirus.  Seems to me that the bodies piling up in New York City, would argue with your assertion – and the assertions of the experts you reference.  Is there an authoritarian response to the pandemic?  Absolutely – that is generally what happens during a pandemic.  Trump gets an approval bump, despite having fucked everything up, Cuomo is worshipped as some kind of Hero, despite not being terribly useful at the end of the day – and others, they see conspiracy.

      What I see are the videos and articles posted both by experts and by people living in the streets with this virus.  I think that enough is known that we should be concerned for our own health – and for that of others.  Just yesterday – there were over nineteen thousand and nine hundred new cases in the U.S. – and 362 new deaths.  World-wide, it was over sixty thousand – and over three thousand and two hundred dead.  That’s in one day.  This isn’t influenza – it is considerably more fatal, particularly to anyone vulnerable afflicted with it.

      Yes, influenza is something that should be taken a lot more seriously – but there is a reason Nations are reacting as they are.  It isn’t a mainstream narrative – it is the numbers we see growing day after day, it is the advice of those who work with the CDC and WHO.  It is the concerns of those who are dealing with – and treating this virus in our hospitals.  Look at the stats from Italy and Spain and tell me this is some bull shit mainstream narrative.  That social distancing is pointless, or that some more serious measures aren’t called for.

      • #295512
        reorg
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 17

        @ David the Gnome

        > … the foremost experts in the world are very concerned about the coronavirus. <

        … like ‘one of the most-cited medical researchers’, John Ioannidis, who stated: ‘The data collected so far on how many people are infected and how the epidemic is evolving are utterly unreliable’?

        ‘This evidence fiasco creates tremendous uncertainty about the risk of dying from Covid-19. Reported case fatality rates, like the official 3.4% rate from the World Health Organization, cause horror — and are meaningless. Patients who have been tested for SARS-CoV-2 are disproportionately those with severe symptoms and bad outcomes. As most health systems have limited testing capacity, selection bias may even worsen in the near future.’

        ‘If we had not known about a new virus out there, and had not checked individuals with PCR tests, the number of total deaths due to “influenza-like illness” would not seem unusual this year. At most, we might have casually noted that flu this season seems to be a bit worse than average.’

        https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/17/a-fiasco-in-the-making-as-the-coronavirus-pandemic-takes-hold-we-are-making-decisions-without-reliable-data/

        These selected quotes are not intended to show that Mr Ioannidis doesn’t care or is not concerned about this new virus. He merely offers some (apparently utterly unwanted) criticisms of measures taken by politicians who may not be entirely above reproach, as you seem to admit.

        > … bodies piling up in New York City <

        ‘Of the 790 deaths in the city, 777 patients had underlying conditions, which, according to the city’s definition, include diabetes, lung disease, cancer, immunodeficiency, heart disease, hypertension, kidney disease, and asthma.’ https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/03/new-york-coronavirus-cases-updates.html

        One major point made by the experts countering the mainstream panic is that what you see in Italy, Spain, and New York, is not an anomalously high number of deaths due to the virus but a high number of patients getting infected who are already dying of other diseases. Authorities in Italy (and elsewhere, e.g. Germany) have explicitly stated that they count every death of somebody who tests positive for the virus as a ‘Corona death’ and don’t investigate whether the virus was the actual cause of death or even if it contributed to it. And then there is the problem of infectious diseases being spread in hospitals due to lack of sanitary conditions. Like when my aunt was hospitalised years ago in order to fix her broken hip. She got infected in that environment and within a few days died of pneumonia, something that happens to thousands every year in Germany, and even more often in Italy from what I hear (and that is what some of the experts mentioned say).

        > … we should be concerned for our own health – and for that of others. <

        Well, I am. It irks me when some dipshit in the supermarket thinks he doesn’t need to keep a distance (but cries out for the police when I then start coughing). It is just impolite to possibly endanger others, whether it’s the flu or whatever we may be spreading. I certainly keep my social distance, anyway, and don’t currently have an insatiable desire to party and dance. But …

        > …. it is the numbers we see growing day after day, <

        … and these numbers are what makes me skeptical the most! They are way to diverse among the various countries, and I find them misleading. As some of the cited experts state: they show when and where people are being increasingly tested, not when or whether people are infected or die (of the reaction to the virus).

        Note: the experts don’t say there is NO epidemic, they just question whether it’s extraordinarily dangerous and call for solid research and a more thoughtful approach.

        Apart from that, some of them (Dr Wodarg) are outspoken critics of the WHO, and probably with good reasons.

        https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/2011-11-09/how-private-companies-are-transforming-global-public-health-agenda

    • #295370
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 14,723

      At least a dozen people in body bags on the floor because the hospital morgue, which probably only had five slots at most, was already full, and no transportation to remove them, which normally comes once a day max, has arrived.

      Seems to me like a bunch of people died of something during one day at one hospital in New York, which is where the photo I’m thinking of was taken. Doesn’t look like a hoax to me.

      You’re in Japan, where they have a functioning public health care system and I’m sure will have massive testing and tracking. Testing is mostly unavailable in the US and quarantine measures were imposed too late. There’s a ventilator shortage that will not be addressed, and we can’t make them here. Can’t make face masks or protective equipment, either, for that matter.

      Can’t import them because of quarantines or American Exceptionalist refusal to accept foreign help.

      A lot of Americans are going to die because of this. Be glad you’re in Japan; the Japanese are going to do a much better job of getting through this than Americans will.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

    • #295540
      Earthartist
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 774

      The death rates are not really the issue in the broad picture, the death rates when they climax in a span of weeks is the issue. The flue season may kill a lot of people but it does it over a broad period of time. It also doesn’t require a large chunk of patients to be inhabited for weeks. The flue also does not spread any where near as fast.

      I would suggest anyone who thinks this is over blown please go volunteer in your local hospital.  Armchair experts are not who I am going to take advice from. I will take the advice of the front line doctors and nurses who are fighting and dying to save lives. The Chinese stopped this by taking it seriously. Emergency personnel are putting their lives at risk and a lot are dying doing so.

      Then you have the asshole rightwing nuts who think we should all go to church together so the crazy pastor can save us!

      trump who wants everyone back to work so Wall Street will survive,

      I don’t really give a dam what these so called experts have to say, I have doctor and nurse friends who are on the front lines and they and their families are terrified, not because the gov. Is hyping this because they are seeing 1st hand what this virus can do. FYI not everyone who gets this is old and compromised. In Italy 40% were not. They may not die but the were hospitalized for a long time and many of the intubated. That is not the flue!

      Earthartist

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