A message to the Democratic Party establishment, and to those who preach Vote Blue No Matter Who

Homepage | Forums | Main Forums | General Discussion | A message to the Democratic Party establishment, and to those who preach Vote Blue No Matter Who

Viewing 29 reply threads
  • Author
    Posts
    • #51447
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,758

      I saw a post just yesterday on a Democratic site, alleging yet again that those who voted for Ralph Nader in 2000 were guilty of murder and war, because all those who voted Green were responsible for George W. Bush winning the election. As usual, this thoroughly disproven slander was extended to 2016 with the claim that had only all of those who had voted for the Green candidate in three swing states had voted for Hillary, She would have won and therefore the Green voters are responsible for the most fucked up administration in American history.

      The comments, of course, were a chorus of Vote Blue No Matter Who, even from those who now say they support Bernie Sanders.

      I’d like to put this bullshit to rest once and for all, but I know it will be a futile effort. That won’t stop me from giving it a shot.

      First, evidence has shown that Al Gore won Florida in 2000, period. Had not the Supreme Court pulled a coup and allowed the recount to be completed, had the other networks refused to follow the lead of Fox News, and quite possibly had Al Gore himself not meekly accepted their horrible decision, there would have been no President Bush the Lesser. Those are all either solid facts or strong probabilities, and Nader voters had absolutely nothing to do with any of them.

      Just a couple more things on 2000–Al Gore was a Vichy Democrat, and Bill Clinton’s Vice-President. Bill Clinton was a lying neoliberal turd, most Americans did not want another Clinton term, and Gore ran a horrible campaign.

      As for 2016, Hillary Clinton was a neoliberal turd, and had been the warmongering Secretary of State for a President who failed to even try to deliver on the campaign promises that won him the office. She was known to be arrogantly corrupt, and ran a horrible campaign for the status quo in a change election year. In short, Hillary was incredibly efficient in that she was arrogant and stupid at the same time. Even then, she still won the national popular vote.

      There were several catches two of which were hubby wrecked the Midwest with NAFTA after he campaigned against it in 1992, and black people had absolutely no reason to vote for someone who had used racist dog whistle political ploys, no matter what the Other Guy was doing.

      Now to a few general principles that the Democratic establishment and the Vote Blue No Matter Who crowd need to get through their thick, stubborn heads.

      First, just because a voter despises Republicans does not mean that she must therefore like or vote for Democrats. In fact, he may despise both parties’ policy track records in varying degrees, for easily understandable reasons; namely, because neither have helped her family or have actually hurt it right in the standard of living field where it really counts.

      Clinton fucked people with NAFTA, Bush fucked people with forever wars, Obama fucked us by not sufficiently regulating the banks, Trump fucked us with his tax cuts for the unimaginably rich, to name just four examples. There are many more.

      Second, no one owes the Democratic Party their vote. One of the few things American citizens have that is really and truly ours, mostly anyway, is our votes. We can vote for whoever we want to vote for who’s on the ballot, and we also have the choice to decline to vote if there is no one we like on said ballot. That is the way it is. Vote Blue No Matter Who folks, get that through your motherfucking heads. It’s a fact. Votes should be earned, not owned owed by some imaginary right.

      This principle has a name. It’s called democracy. Look it up.

      Third, just because I vote in the Democratic primary for a candidate I believe in does not mean that I have some duty to vote for whichever Democrat wins, or steals, said primary. I, and a whole shitload of people these days, vote on policy, not party. Party doesn’t mean shit. Bill Clinton and Barack Obama both proved that in spades, and so did the despicable Democratic leadership in Congress for the last 30 years. Do I even need to mention the Blue Dogs, remember them?

      Fourth, there is absolutely nothing either the Party leadership or the Vote Blue No Matter Who or the We Suck Less crowd can say to persuade me to vote for someone who I know is in the pocket of our ruling oligarchy and won’t do shit to change things for the better, and probably will help change things for the worse, if elected. Save your breath. If you want me to vote for a Democrat for President, nominate Bernie Sanders or Tulsi Gabbard. Nominate someone I can believe in.

      That way, you will nominate someone who will actually win, which brings me to my final point, which is the Democratic candidate cannot win without the support of progressives, minority voters, and young people. Bernie can get all three. None of your neoliberal Vichy turds or turdettes can.

      So, Vote Blue No Matter Who crowd, if you want to actually win, nominate someone who is right on policy, and that’s probably Bernie. If not, nominate someone else like Beto or Kamala or that really creepy old guy who was Obama’s VP. That choice is partially in your hands. I hope you make the winning one.

      If you don’t, then don’t you dare tell me I must vote for some oligarchical hack, for I’ll just tell you to fuck off.

      And have a nice day.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #51451
      Hobbit709
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,604

      The fact that 8 times as many people as usual in a presidential election year left the top of the ballot BLANK should be telling something to anyone with the wit to pay attention.

      I don't waste my time teaching pigs to sing.

    • #51453
      Two way street
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,193

      I do not understand the Tulsi Warren part.  Thanks for the essay.  I too will not vote for a Vichy DINO.

      2020-2024 Campaign Season: We the People are in the fight for our lives and livelihoods.

    • #51456
      ColorsoftheRainbow
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 669

      The Democratic Party Establishment—and their sycophants—have spent at least two consecutive decades (the 2000s and the 2010s) mindfucking whoever they figure will fall for their lies.

      They are a desperate and despicable lot.

      I suggest people, who may not consider themselves strong enough, build up a thicker skin and reject these manipulative creeps.

      Those who would be, or they are, the prey…well, they should know to not consider the hollow words and narratives of narcissistic parasites who refuse to look into a mirror.

    • #51458
      beemerphill
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 129

      Barbarian, you said it much more eloquently and forcefully than I ever could have.  Thanks. There is a very good reason that I am registered in my state as an Independent. That is because I AM an Independent. If a political party wants my vote they must give me something in return. I voted for Bernie in the Primaries the last election and would have voted for him in the election had the DNC not pulled their shenanigans. I will tell you, I did NOT vote for Hillary. And I did not stay home. There are some decent candidates running this time. Pick a good one and maybe we won’t have Trump for another four. Mess up again and pay the price!

      beemerphill

    • #51459
      game meat
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,525

      If you think about it, they may have lost even worse in 2016 if there were no third parties or, at the very least, it wouldn’t have mattered. While they were all busy foaming at the mouth, casting aspersions on everything and everyone from Jill Stein to Russian bots, they always seemed to overlook Gary “What is Aleppo?” Johnson. The Libertarian candidate got way more votes than the Green party candidate.

      Their weird logic assumes, for reasons I’ve never entirely understood, that all Stein votes would have automatically transferred to Clinton . If that is true, then all Johnson votes would have automatically transferred to Trump. Of course, that’s not true, but the logic they use to blame third parties for their incompetence doesn’t even give them the results they claim to believe it does.

      Also, if Nader cost them the election in 2000, then why aren’t they thanking Perot for giving Clinton the presidency in the 90s? Third parties/independents are only an “outrage” when the dems perceive their impact to be negative for democrats.

      They like to preach hard work and bootstraps for everyone else, so they’ll just have to work hard for votes by actually doing something popular with people, and stop being so, what’s that word they like to use? Entitled, that’s the one.

      • #51674
        ColorsoftheRainbow
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 669

        game meat writes,

        “I’ve never entirely understood, that all Stein votes would have automatically transferred to Clinton . If that is true, then all Johnson votes would have automatically transferred to Trump.”

        I did the math on exactly that premise.

        In every state, plus District of Columbia, in which both Libertarian nominee Gary Johnson and Green Party nominee Jill Stein were on the general-election ballot…Johnson received more votes than Stein.

        This means Johnson was costing Donald Trump more than Stein costing Hillary Clinton.

        Johnson received +2.22 percentage points more in the U.S. Popular Vote than Stein.

        In the official results, Hillary Clinton received +2.09 percentage points more than Donald Trump. (It was: Hillary, 48.02%; Trump, 45.93%.)

        This means, had it not been for Johnson, Trump’s Republican pickup of the presidency would have also included a Republican pickup of the U.S. Popular Vote by +0.13—a similar margin (+0.17) experienced by 1960 Democratic pickup winner John Kennedy.

        This would have also changed the map with more red. In addition to Trump’s pickups (Florida, Iowa, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin plus the 2nd Congressional District of Maine), he would have also flipped the statewide of Maine as well as Minnesota and New Hampshire. Instead of winning with an original 306 electoral votes, Trump’s electoral-vote score would have originally been 322.

        This does not get mentioned by those who mindfuck on behalf of the desperate, corrupt, corporate Democratic Party Establishment.

    • #51461
      Maedhros
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 730

      The Democratic Party is full of losers.  This is a demonstrated fact – look at all the House, Senate, State Legislative, and Governors seats they have lost of the last decade-and-a-half.  As long as they continue on their present course in demanding fealty rather than offering solutions, they will continue to lose.

      At some point (if they last that long) they will get tired of losing and change their tactic.

      His body recovered from his torment and became hale,
      but the shadow of his pain was in his heart;
      and he lived to wield his sword with left hand
      more deadly than his right had been.

    • #51469
      chknltl
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,402

      Vote Blue No Matter Who lurkers:

      Ohio Barbarian speaks for me. As a matter of fact, there is no way I could have said it better myself.

      2016 was an election between Benidict Arnold and Bozo the Clown.

      Should you victimize us with those options again and we will rally against those options again.

      Look around you, our citizenry is suffering. Stop blaming the victims.

    • #51473
      djean111
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 6,438

      Bravo!!!!!!  Much more eloquent than my myriad rants!  IMO, this belongs on the home page.  Truth.

      And, at the risk of seeming flighty or whatever, reading this was well worth interrupting the Game of Thrones marathon.  Sometimes I worry I will wake up and find JPR a sea of  “Bernie, but”s.   Your OP is reassuring.

      America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)

      Everything I post is just my opinion, and, honestly, I would love to be wrong.

    • #51479
      xyzse
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,789

      I might as well blame myself for the expansion of wars under Obama.  As much as I dislike Gaddafi, he disarmed himself under Bush, and still got killed by Obama(or shall I say Hillary?  Obviously she was trying to take credit for that and bin Laden).  Basically, all that these things have done is teach other states to never trust the US, since if the US wants you gone, it doesn’t matter what you do or say, they will even make stuff up and blow you up.

      Hell, they should be blaming themselves for the way they are pushing Trump to go in to more wars and a more belligerent stance in foreign affairs.  Obviously, they ignited a new cold war with the Russian narrative, when even Obama slapped down Mitt Romney for calling Russia a threat, saying “We’re not in the 80’s”.

      Any how, if they play around with the primaries again, I will not vote Blue no matter who.

       

    • #51504
      algernon
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 539

      The primaries have just begun and there’ll be a year of it.  Does anybody think that supporters of other candidates than Bernie Sanders will be uplifted by listening to contemptuous attacks on their candidates, on them, on the Democratic party, over and over 24/7 from Sanders’ supporters and be eager to turn out and vote for Sanders should he win the primary and represent the Dems in 2020?

      Will Sanders’ supporters say “that’s OK” if Sanders wins the primary and on election day loses to Trump because a whole shitload of Dems said “back atcha!” and wrote in Mickey Mouse, rather than vote for someone who attracts supporters who despise them, who dump contempt all over them daily?   Who say “No lesser of two evils for me!  Rather than Sanders I’m perfectly fine with another 4 yrs of Trump!”

      Do Sanders’ supporters believe Sanders doesn’t need Dem votes, except for those who’re already ardent supporters at this early stage?

      Do Sanders’ supporters believe Sanders already has a lock on it, so they don’t have to actually campaign for reluctant or second-third-choice Dem votes in the primary, so they can just ratpack and troll the Dem opposition and Dem voters with no consequence?  Do they believe that it’s Sanders’ “turn”?

       

      • #51517
        djean111
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 6,438

        I believe that it is Sanders’ ISSUES’ turn, and that none of the Vichy Dems will do anything but crap on them.

        Bernie and his supporters have been subjected to lying, cheating, smears, name-calling, and other bad things for a few years now.  Maybe it is confusing for some, people voting on issues instead of against Trump.

         

        America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)

        Everything I post is just my opinion, and, honestly, I would love to be wrong.

      • #51519
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 21,758

        Bernie Sanders does not need neoliberal Democratic votes to win the general election, no. Or Vichy Democratic votes, as I call them. The reason why is simple.

        Less than 5% of the population supports current economic policy and liberal social issues, which is what the Democratic establishment advocates. That, BTW, is why they lose so often, and they would rather lose than see someone like Bernie in the White House, because Bernie is opposed to their personal class interests as well as those of their donors.

        My 5% number comes from poll after poll on the issues for the last ten years.

        Furthermore, the only way Sanders can win the nomination is to bring lots of new voters into the Democratic Party and, as you say, steamroll the opposition. They are unpersuadable, anyway. IMHO, they cannot be negotiated with or persuaded, only defeated.

        Just like the Republicans. Anyway, with tipping points fast approaching, if they haven’t been reached already, for runaway global warming and climate change, we simply don’t have time to talk nice to people who have openly despised us for years.

        If we fail, then something further down the road will trigger the collapse of the American Empire and possibly violent revolution and civil war. Our current order is already doomed. It just won’t admit it yet.

        It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

        You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

      • #51522
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 21,758

        Just one more thing. I don’t believe it is Sanders’ turn. I’m not like the fucking Hillary supporters, or the Republicans who thought it was Bob Dole’s turn or Jeb Bush’s turn.

        I do believe that his candidacy is our last, best chance for peaceful reforms that might just turn the country and global civilization around. The alternative is millions of Americans dead within the next 20 years. I really do believe that, and I’d rather go through a civil war, even die, than see my kids and grandkids be little more than serfs.

        It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

        You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

      • #51545
        sadoldgirl
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,349

        @algernon

        I would like to state 3 things, which I have done before:

        Inspite of what we are being told we have just ONE party; it is

        the corporate, warmongering Uniparty with very minor

        differences to keep us divided. Divide + Conquer is their motto.

        Second: If the Carter Institute cannot make sure that our

        elections are fair and democratic, we should realize that our

        voting system does not work in the people’s favor.

        Third point: If one at last accepts the first point (which is

        very difficult for many Americans), then consider what the

        Dems admitted in court: The party is a private organization,

        which can determine the nominee ahead of time.This means

        either that the primaries are a show for idiots or that they will

        use any means available to get their compliant candidate in.

        In that sense Tulsi and Bernie have become the vote for the

        people, even though they run within the party system. If

        neither of them become the nominee, then the choice is open

        to the people to go third party or leave the POTUS vote

        empty as many chose to do in 2016. Why blame the voters

        for a loss? It is the right of voters to choose, and  it is very stupid

        to blame them, because it will backfire.

        • #51617
          algernon
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 539

          Reread my post.  In no way am I blaming voters for voting or not voting in any way they choose.  That’s a person’s right.

          If Bernie Sanders’ supporters continue to piss on and pour contempt all over the supporters of other candidates and all over the Democratic Party, all over those who might still have a soft spot for Obama, and so on, and if they continue to troll all those who think in any way differently than them rather than campaign respectfully in a debate over ideas and strategy and tactics, then I’ll predict right now:  Bernie Sanders will lose.  There’ll be an “anybody but Bernie” end to the primary, and if he wins out in the primary he’ll lose to Trump.

          And don’t tell me about “polls”.  Hillary’s campaign also had “polls” to show she couldn’t do any wrong – much good they did her.  Believe it, the USA isn’t all that progressive, or even “liberal”, and the extreme right is still on the ascendant.

          I said the same at another site in 2015, to another audience who – I simply couldn’t believe their stupidity in attacking and rat-packing voters – and I was flayed alive.  Then, I wasn’t happy about it, but along with the rest of the planet I noted their shock and disbelief on election night 2016 when Trump won.  Go figure.  Couldn’t be they were bitten on the ass by their own offensive and repellent tactic.  NO I bloody well did not blame the voters!  I did not point fingers at anyone but HER and (eta “those of”, since it was just a very vocal and connected part of) her stupid fucking supporters who spent the whole damn campaign ratfucking and trolling and repelling all those who weren’t already, even before the primary campaign started, part of the choir.

           

          • #51682
            djean111
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 6,438

            If you think people did not vote for her because of her SUPPORTERS, you are sadly mistaken.  This is not a fucking popularity contest.  This is about the issues.  The issues.  The issues.

            If Hillary’s supporters had been sweet as pie, I would not have voted for her.  Because of her record and intentions on the issues I care about.  There, she is dreadful.  Just learning about her plan to collect 3% from every worker’s paycheck to give to the Blackstone Group to play with, just hearing about her desire to attack Russia – IMO we dodged a real bullet.  Literally.

            Hillary paid for, and looks like the DNC is still paying for, a smelly little clot of trolls who pop up and smear and besmirch, in the comments, any positive mention of Bernie or Democratic Socialism, or any of Bernie’s issues.  The Vichy Dem candidates, IMO, have no redeeming qualities, and no, I will not vote for any of them.  Because of the ISSUES.

            America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)

            Everything I post is just my opinion, and, honestly, I would love to be wrong.

          • #51771
            Ohio Barbarian
            Moderator
            • Total Posts: 21,758

            Let me try to explain another way. The Third Way Democrats will never truly support Bernie Sanders, ever. Their interests are diametrically opposed to his economic and foreign policies. If he gets the nomination, I wouldn’t be surprised to see “Trump Democrats,” and the Republicans and corporate media will play them up to seem much larger than they are. Perhaps they’re so disgusted by Trump that they will support Sanders in the general election, but then they’ll do everything they can to stop his reforms from getting through Congress.

            More likely they’ll vote for some billionaire independent candidate, though, come to think of it.

            In short, they are not my allies, they are my enemies, they’ve shit on me and mine for years, and I’m not going to be nice to them.

            As for polls, you’d better know what you’re talking about before you tell me to not tell you about polls. The polls, in fact, did not lie to Hillary. They were accurate. Trump did not carry a single state where Hillary was ahead of him by more than the margin of error. They also said black voter enthusiasm for her was very low. She didn’t listen, and that’s on her.

            It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

            You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

      • #51741
        ravensong
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 2,222

        Democrats simply have to stop nominating center right Third Way New Democrat Republican lite corporatist candidates.

        There are simply too many well informed, perceptive liberal progressive voters out there who see through the New Democrat corporatist anti-democratic oligarch agenda, and many of us are done holding our nose because New Democrats hold a gun to our heads and tell us, fuck you, you have to vote for our shitty lesser of two evils candidate or you will end up with Trump/Bush/other RW extremist asshole.

        It’s a new day, a new age.  The antiquated New Democrat corporatist agenda and New Democrat candidates are a losing proposition.  It is the New Democrat candidates and New Democrat Republican lite policies who LOST everything and gave us Donald Trump.

        And they will give us Trump again if they continue to repeat the same behavior over and over and expect a different result.

        So don’t expect us to mollycoddle them, and tell them that their shitty candidates are just swell with us. The Emperor is stark naked, and someone needs to open their eyes to this fact.

         

        “A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by a majority.” ~ Booker T. Washington

        The truth is, there’s no such thing as being “anti-Fascist.” Either you are a decent human being with a conscience, or you are a fascist.
        ~ Unknown

    • #51535
      Segami
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 5,496

       

       

       

      VOTE FOR TRUTH TELLERS AND NOT BULLSHIT SELLERS!

       

      Make a list and line up ALL the Dem candidates and pose a few simple questions:

       

      1/ Which candidates believe that the insurance industry (not your doctor) have the sole right to determine whether a person receives the necessary life-sustaining medical care based solely on their insurance policy coverage?

       

      2/ Which candidates believe: (a) people would receive BETTER medical attention and sustained health care using private insurance coverage OR (b) people will receive BETTER medical attention and sustained health care using  a Medicare-For-All/Single Payer program?

       

      3/ Which of these health care options ( (a) medical insurance coverage or (b) Single Payer ) do candidates believe have contributed to the vast increase of personal bankruptcies filed in this country directly related to medical bills?

       

      4/ Which of these candidates ACCEPTS political contributions from the healthcare/insurance industry? On related health care bills & issues, which candidates cast their votes to (a) protect the healthcare/insurance industry’s interests or (b) to protect the people’s interests?

       

      Medicare For All | The Gold Standard Health Care Plan

    • #51536
      doh1304
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,673

      I apologize, OB, for piggybacking on your thread, but I’m pretty sure you won’t mind.

      Yesterday I was at a writers’ group meeting when a twenty something pulled out her cell phone and gleefully announced the resignation of the DHS secretary. My response – “Great, he only has 200 to go to beat Reagan’s record.”

      These kids today, they don’t know anything about corruption! Now in my day we had real corruption!

      • #51565
        ArtfromArk
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,611

        Yes, but even Reagan didn’t fire so many staff or have so many resignations in his first two years as Trump has had.

        “There’s a new spirit abroad in the land. The old days of ‘grab and greed’ are on their way out. We’re beginning to think of what we owe the other fellow, not just what we’re compelled to give him. The time’s coming… when we shan’t be able to fill our bellies in comfort while others go hungry, sleep in warm beds while others shiver in the cold.... And God willing, we’ll live to see that day…” Basil Rathbone,"Sherlock Holmes Faces Death" (Universal 1943)

    • #51539
      tularetom
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 35

      You are preaching to us.

      Signed,

      The Choir

      Eloquently to be certain, but to no avail, the Vote Blue No Matter Who crowd can’t hear it.

    • #51541
      Utopian Leftist
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 645

      Good job OB, but you didn’t comment on what I see as the two biggest threats posed by “Vote Blue no matter Who,” so I’m going to.

      First, it causes the center to drift rightward. If our public servants already know that our vote is in the bag, why “serve” us at all? That’s the kind of bargaining position Obama repeatedly presented. Why not sell your vote (cough, soul, cough) for that big, fat campaign donation, instead of doing the will of the people? If you are the lesser of two evils, you may be looking swell even after you sell out to the corporations. But there will always be a trail of evil behind you, because evil is evil. And what that means for the average person is that Vote Blue no Matter Who enables Vichy Dems to take the spot of politicians who might have actually contributed to SOLVING our problems, instead of actively making them worse.

      Second, Vote Blue no Matter Who leads millions astray. Think about how many millions of Americans, voters even, common people like you and me who keep up with the news: how many of them watch CNN or MSNBC and think they are informed? Let alone, Fox? There seem to be fewer informed people than ever. And even if you disagree on that account, think about the millions who have been brainwashed into believing that the Clintons or Obama represent liberal policies, when the truth is that liberal policies haven’t been tried, federally, since the 1960’s. Every time we elect another establishment Dem, we further confuse the voting population, corrupt the liberal “brand name,” and dilute our own message. Susan Sarandon was correct: Trump brings the revolution faster than another neoliberal administration would have. Considering how deeply we’ve all been lied to and how little time we have left to save humanity from extinction, I think we need to RUSH the revolution. Anyway, it is too late for Incrementalism to be a viable alternative (not that it ever should have been).

      "All fascism is a result of a failure of the left to provide a viable alternative." ~ Trotsky
      “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.” ~ Krishnamurti

      • #51551
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 21,758

        Your first point is indisputable, and a great one. Your second point was definitely true 20 years ago and mostly true 10 years ago. Today? It still has some validity, but not so much.

        Cable TV news viewership has dropped dramatically just over the last five years or so, and continues its downward slide. Most of that audience is 55 and older, and generally more conservative than the rest of the population. A greater percentage of that age group votes than do younger ones, but that may be changing as well, and therein lie my hopes, and Bernie’s as well.

        Younger people also tend to be better informed than most of us oldsters give them credit for, and most of the ones I know, and I do know a few, are surprisingly well-informed, and don’t get their news from TV.

        It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

        You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

      • #51552
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 21,758

        Your first point is indisputable, and a great one. Your second point was definitely true 20 years ago and mostly true 10 years ago. Today? It still has some validity, but not so much.

        Cable TV news viewership has dropped dramatically just over the last five years or so, and continues its downward slide. Most of that audience is 55 and older, and generally more conservative than the rest of the population. A greater percentage of that age group votes than do younger ones, but that may be changing as well, and therein lie my hopes, and Bernie’s as well.

        Younger people also tend to be better informed than most of us oldsters give them credit for, and most of the ones I know, and I do know a few, are surprisingly well-informed, and don’t get their news from TV.

        It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

        You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #51543
      PolecatHollerer
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,364

      Hillary Clinton’s career could be labeled “American Horror Story: Politician”.

      I have PRINCIPLES I try to live by- I “vote true no matter who”, and there was nothing true about HerSelf. The D Party worked hard to earn my contempt back in 2016, and they’re no different today. If they cheat Bernie again, I’m voting a straight Green ticket.

      AFAIC, The Democrat Party can suck a candy bar out of my ass and choke on it.

      If you give a man enough rope, it will be six inches too short. This is not the nature of rope- it is the nature of man.

    • #51574
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,230

      Recommending for the daily radical.  @deadpool

      A great post as usual, my friend.  You speak for me as well.  A couple of thoughts…

      It was becoming apparent, well before the election that there were two parties of Democrats.  One had most of the money and nearly all of the power.  It was not the one that most of us here were with.

      Those few of “the other” (by which I mean FDR type dems – not Reagan or Clinton types) sort that remain, are fighting not just an uphill battle, but one that, for all practical purposes, appears hopeless.  I wish them the best.

      The greater part of that conflict ended when millions decided to no longer offer allegiance to those who did nothing to earn it.  Who betrayed us – all of us – many times over.

      The party, such as it may have been, is no more.  It divided long ago, but 2016 was the catalyst that broke it.

      For now, those like Sanders and Cortez may be Democrats in name – but they are radicals in truth.

      I will not vote blue no matter who.  I will not settle for another servant of the oligarchy.  Only by defeating it – and its servants – can we ever hope to build a better Country.

      We lost the last battle – but the war is just beginning.  We cannot negotiate, compromise, or give in to those who have neither respect nor esteem for us.  If we permit corporate lackeys and war mongers to remain.. to rule…

      Then the only changes to come will be ugly ones.  It is time to consider who REALLY serves the public.  It is not the likes of Booker, or Harris.

    • #51579
      Robot X
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 524

      Political parties are just like any other product or service I might chose. Either it’s serving my interests or it isn’t. It’s the responsibility of the party to serve my interests. Not the other way around. The idea of party bosses enforcing loyalty is completely repulsive and grotesque.

    • #51647
      Punxsutawney
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 2,181

      This here, “because neither have helped her family or have actually hurt it right in the standard of living field where it really counts”.  And then Obama comes and stands in my front yard and brags about it.  And then Hillary runs on the same. Yeah, so unreasonable to not vote for someone who’s hurt me. It’s like voting for your abuser.

      In America, “Liberty” means “Free to Die in Service of Capital” - Amfortas the hippie.

      Most of today’s elites have the moral and social reasoning capacities of spoiled toddlers.

      “People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage...but the privileged also feel that their privileges, however egregious they may seem to others, are a solemn, basic, God-right. The sensitivity of the poor to injustice is a trivial thing c

    • #51658
      jbnw
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 5,338

      Well said.  I have said it befote here – I will only vote for someone, not against someone else.

    • #51693
      Charles
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,660

       

      Bernie: "Not Me. Us"

      • #51694
        djean111
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 6,438

        Sorry, there are no effective guilt trips – people would have had to deal with Hillary’s warmongering and social net slashing for the rest of their lives.

        If anyone should have to deal with Trump getting elected for the rest of their lives – it is the DNC/Democratic Party.

        They are the ones who cheated and lied in order to name Hillary, and they are the ones who said, in court, that they are a private corporation and can name whoever they want as the candidate.  I honestly believe they are planning/already planned to do that again.  Why should the rest of us have to vote for a corporate candidate chosen by a corporation, a candidate who does not mean well for us, a candidate who has not done well for us in the past?  How does that even make sense?

        Also – invoking Bernie did not work, does not work, will not work for getting progressives to vote for Vichy Dems.  This is not a cult.

        America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)

        Everything I post is just my opinion, and, honestly, I would love to be wrong.

        • #51696
          Charles
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 1,660

          Sorry. Trump is horrible. At least Bernie gets that……

          Bernie: "Not Me. Us"

          • #51697
            djean111
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 6,438

            Sorry – Hillary – TPP, no universal health care or debt-free college, abortion restrictions on the table, warmongerer, liar, assured Wall Street that she has a public face and a private face, was going to give 3% of everyone’s paycheck to Blackstone Group to play with and dump their unprofitable junk into, worked tirelessly to ramp up bad relations and a war footing with Russia – oh, no, the DNC will have to come up with someone better than that – like Bernie – and not rely on “Bernie says”.  This is ALL on them.  They put a disgusting candidate on the ballot.  Maybe they should do better – that privately owned corporation that has nothing at all to do with Democracy – and put someone on the ballot who means well for people.  If they have to cheat and lie to get their candidate in place, doesn’t that tell you how bad that candidate is?  THAT is why Trump won.

            And no, I sincerely doubt Hillary got that many votes in California.  That is a DNC specialty.    DWS’ specialty.  So no, I do not believe the California totals for a millisecond.

            This is not a case where anyone thinks Trump is not horrible.  WE get that…..      It is just that when the country was presented with two horrible  candidates, many chose “neither one”.  DNC was not expecting that.  All they have accomplished is eviscerating what the Democratic Party used to stand for.  Today, it stands for money and special interests.  That’s all.

            America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)

            Everything I post is just my opinion, and, honestly, I would love to be wrong.

            • #51761
              Charles
              Participant
              • Total Posts: 1,660

              @djean111

              First off I couldn’t stand Clinton and I understand why people didn’t vote for her. She was terrible. We can debate whether her or Trump would have been worse but it’s a moot point.

              But the supreme court picks alone would have been much better. Hopefully that’s pretty obvious.

              7 million less Americans have healthcare under Trump and up to 30 million Americans may lose their healthcare because of him and the GOP.

              Trump appointed a coal lobbyist to run the EPA and that’s the norm for him. He finds the absolute worst person for a position in order to destroy the legitimacy of the agency. Trump actually said the noise from wind turbines causes cancer! He brought in John Bolton and Elliot Abrams to try to push Maduro out in Venezuela.

              And yes, Clinton sucked especially on foreign policy. And Clinton shares a big amount of blame for Trump being president since the DNC and and her campaign chose to elevate Trump in the GOP primaries.

              But Clinton isn’t running now. I realize it’s not saying much but none of the candidates are anywhere near as terrible as she was. And many of the Democratic candidates are much farther to the left on the issues that are important than even Obama was. Issues that Trump doesn’t give two SHITES about.

              Bernie could work with them if he had to.  If Trump wins Bernie loses in many ways. Trump will veto anything decent. By now his record has shown he just wants to make money and do what he can to enrich his buddies while making mockery of the presidency.

              If a third party candidate had even a remote chance I could be more on board but the reality is is that at the presidential level it’s nothing more than a protest vote. We don’t even know who’s going to run for the Greens. And the odds of that person who ever they are of winning the presidential nomination are nearly zero. The Green party doesn’t even have a member in congress yet.

              If Bernie isn’t the president he needs someone he can work with to get anything done. NOTHING will be accomplished with Trump as president. Burning it down by hating what the Vichy Democrats might do doesn’t hurt them or their donor class. It hurts the poorest of Americans, the environment, and society as a whole.

              I am not a fan of many of the current Democrats running for president. But I know the issues and understand their downsides.

              I care about the outcome more than the candidates themselves.

              Sorry we don’t agree and I realize I am in the minority here in my opinion. Best of wishes to you. I hope Bernie is the nominee. That would be the best scenario….

               

               

               

              Bernie: "Not Me. Us"

          • #51760
            Utopian Leftist
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 645

            I think what a lot of people don’t get is that “we the people” do not possess the PRIVILEGE to survive another Democratic Administration unless the Democrat in question is a DECENT PERSON! Eighty percent of this country is living paycheck to paycheck. We KNOW that 45 is a terrorist. $hitlery was a terrorist, too. And in HER own way, would have been, over the long haul, every bit as detrimental to the cause of the poor as 45 has demonstrated himself to be.

            "All fascism is a result of a failure of the left to provide a viable alternative." ~ Trotsky
            “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.” ~ Krishnamurti

    • #51698
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,230

      Another member mentioned that OB is “preaching to the choir” here.  I often felt the same about my own posts.  In this particular case though – I believe he is hitting some particularly vulnerable nerves.  Our political opponents lurk here for the same reasons many of us lurk on their forums on occasion.  They want to know what we are thinking, discussing, planning.  So, this will get a reaction.  Most likely, the most common reaction will be to piss people off – but when you piss people off, it is often also the case that, once they calm, they think on what you said – and why they were pissed off.

      Basically, what OB is doing here is issuing a challenge, in a very clever way.  We aren’t going to all get along – but it may be that, if we write it out in crayon, with small words, over and over again for quite some time… eventually, some of them will get it.

      Lurkers: You are welcome to join us.  Be a part of this difference we so desperately wish to make.  Join us, help us move forward – and you won’t be disappointed.  For, even if, in the end, we lose, you will be in the very best company.

      Love to JPR – and all of my fellow posters – and the lurkers, too, even the stupid ones.

      • #51699
        djean111
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 6,438

        I believe I can already hear the creaking dirty gears of “Vote Blue No Matter Who” and Trump!!! and Russia!! starting to greasily grind.  The “I love and supported Bernie, BUT we all need to vote for the Vichy Dem!!!” posts.  Looking back, the DNC/Democratic Party way of doing things seems to be collect a lot of money, name a corporate candidate, and guilt trip voters into voting for that candidate.  And then collect a lot more money from special interests and screw over the voters.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  Still gonna do that, IMO.  I will not enable that.  It is the candidate’s fault, and the people who name the candidate’s fault.  Not the voters’ fault.  Give me a progressive candidate – a real one, not a lying Vichy Dem – and I will vote for that candidate.  Also I am proud to not be a Democrat any more, so the party loyalty thing does not work on me.

        The DNC lurkers will not be choosing progressive issues that help the voters over the big money.

        America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)

        Everything I post is just my opinion, and, honestly, I would love to be wrong.

      • #51704
        Charles
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,660

        I vote based on issues and electability.

        Jill Stein is awesome on the issues but she has ZERO chance of getting elected president. She may not even run for the presidency so then people are left with Vote Green No Matter Who and not even knowing who the candidate is.

        I respect people’s right to vote for her or another candidate rather than a Democrat but I’d rather vote for someone who has a greater probability of winning and is better than Trump on the issues.

        If Bernie doesn’t win I want someone he can work with and push left. Trump offers nothing. Most of the current field is starting way left of where candidates were in 2016. They may not be perfect but most support issues I care about. Again Trump offer nothing on the issues.

        If the Greens and third parties want to make inroads they need people in congress. The Greens don’t have a single person in congress.

        I don’t hate Democrats so much I will let Trump win. It doesn’t hurt the Democratic party and it’s wealthy donors as much as it hurts the American people, the environment, and society as a whole if Trump wins. The corporate donors will do just fine financially under Trump.

        Having Bernie, AOC, and other great progressives in congress accomplishes very little if Trump wins again.

        I don’t consider myself Vote Blue No Matter who as I will support third party candidates who have a decent chance of winning especially in congressional races. But I’ve read the platforms and watched town halls for most of the Democratic candidates so my decision will be based on their issues.

        Yes, I want Bernie but if he doesn’t get the nomination I know why I would be voting for another Democrat for even if I don’t like them or all their stands on the issues. I agree with Pete Buttigieg on many more issues than Trump. He’s still terrible compared to Bernie but Bernie and progressives could work with him.

        So call me a vichy Democrat if one likes because I won’t hate them more than I care about issues overall. But like Bernie I know Trump is the antithesis of progressive issues and progress. NOTHING good will ever come from Trump being president…..

         

        Bernie: "Not Me. Us"

        • #51732
          djean111
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 6,438

          It is not a matter of “hating Democrats”.  It is a matter of hating what the DNC/Vichy Dems stand for, and what they do.  Really, if I hated “Democrats”, would I support and vote Bernie, since he is running as a Democrat?  That argument is a bit off the mark, methinks.  Anyway, Buttigieg is as far from being progressive as it is possible to be, IMO.  He would not get my vote.

          America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)

          Everything I post is just my opinion, and, honestly, I would love to be wrong.

        • #51733
          Ohio Barbarian
          Moderator
          • Total Posts: 21,758

          Most of the current field is starting way left of where candidates were in 2016. They may not be perfect but most support issues I care about.

          No, my friend, they don’t. They are lying to you. A perfect example is the one you mentioned–Pete Buttigieg. He talks pretty, much like Obama, and he’s celebrated in some circles just because he’s gay. But when pressed, he’s opposed to Medicare-for-All because he wants to preserve the health insurance corporations, and he said he just can’t wrap his mind around the idea of free college for everybody, and makes noises like extending Pell Grants.

          More incrementalism and more lies. More corporatist hacks. More politicians who want to pull a con like Obama did in 2008–get elected as a progressive, but govern as a “centrist” or “moderate,” which are both now synonyms for oligarch.  I am not telling you how to vote, but I am telling you and everyone else reading this I will not vote for another oligarch or aristocrat, no matter who their opponent is.

          And you know what? I’m not speaking just for myself. I estimate there are at least 20 million Democratic-leaning voters who feel the same way I do.

          It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

          You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

          • #51755
            closeupready
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 2,587

            On Buttigieg, I agree.  He’s gay, I’m gay, and I have zero interest in him.

            In part because he strikes me as trying too hard to be a model minority member in deep red Indiana – which makes sense when you consider Ryan White’s treatment from other Indiana citizens.  In other words, in the Midwest, you can be a little weird, but in exchange for letting you live your own life, if you rock their boat at ALL, they will run you right out of town.  So people like Buttigieg out-Obama Obama himself.

            Part of me is waiting for Buttigieg to chastise thoroughly corporocrat Kamala Harris, “you want to eliminate health insurance companies, moving us closer to the single payer model, Kamala, but HOW YOU GONNA PAY FOR THAT?!?”

            The opinions and personal views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and should never be taken seriously.

    • #51702
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,230

      @djean111

      I think things are looking good for Bernie right now.  Of course, that could change in a year – a lot could.  I don’t agree with everything he says, but I know that he is not one of the oligarchs or their servants.  I believe he is a genuine servant of the people.  So, he’s got my vote, even when I passionately disagree with him about one thing or another.

      The difference (IMO) with the Vichy dems (I’m still not entirely sure what that means, or why we don’t just say “assholes”, but.. well, damn you OB, for starting this trend) is that they ARE servants of the oligarchy – and not of the people.  I could easily point out many, many cases in which the other candidates (aside from Tulsi Gabbard – and possibly Andrew Yang) have demonstrated this.  It took me a while – but I am also proud to have abandoned the D party.  They really need to change their title.  They are not democrats – they haven’t been for some time.  Democrat implies that they believe in and/or favor democracy – this is not the case.

      On the other hand… perhaps it is possible, that one day, those like Sanders, AOC and Tulsi can reclaim that word, that title – and return the party to it’s true meaning and purpose.  Should that ever happen, I will have to reconsider my position on the party.  For now though… one hell of an uphill battle, against the establishment, but nonetheless, we are making progress.  Anyhow, I’m ready to go.  Ready to kick some ass (politically) for the sake of all that I believe in.  The best way for me to do that, is to support Bernie Sanders.

      I believe we can do it.  I know we can.  We will have to keep our eyes and ears open and fight damn hard, but we can alter the course this Country has been on for far too long.

      • #51703
        djean111
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 6,438

        The real question at hand – if/when the DNC names, say, Joe Biden or Kamala Harris or another of their ilk, will progressives who supported Bernie vote for the Vichy Dem.  That is what all of this really is about – the DNC’s desire to transform Bernie’s supporters into Vichy Dem supporters.  That is all they care about.  Not the issues, IMO the issues are just an annoyance to the DNC.  There will be a lot of rhetoric – long-winded, short and authoritarian, plaintive, etc., devoted to this.  That stuff makes me snicker, I just find it interesting to see where it comes from.

        America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)

        Everything I post is just my opinion, and, honestly, I would love to be wrong.

    • #51710
      Dudester
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 438

      <hr />


      @davidthegnome
      you dont know what vichy is? World War II history: Nazis invaded France, and one city im called Vichy collaborated with the Nazis. My version of Wiki. I suggest a full Wiki

    • #51714
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,230

      @djean111

      I wrote a really long post that got lost. The gist of it is this: I will not vote again for a Vichy-dem-asshole. I’m done with the servants of the oligarchy. I do think that OB makes a very good point when he speaks of civil war. I think that, regardless of the outcome of 2020, such a thing is coming, in one form or another. The difference that 2020 may make – is whether the government will side with the Neo Nazis or the people. The red hat wearing maggots are the current version of KKK/neo Nazi/white supremacist assholes – but we’ve dealt with them before. We can again, if we have to. Such were always going to be the enemies of the people in any event.

      If, however, another Vichy-dem-asshole should take the nomination… then I believe the dems will lose 2020. I believe they will lose big. I further believe that the strength of the right wing and their grip on this Country will grow to much greater strength, should that happen. At that point… given all we have witnessed these last couple of decades, I believe it entirely likely that a whole hell of a lot of us are going to die. Either because we lack health care, or food, or housing, or heat… or because that long feared civil war will have begun – and some aren’t going to care who they are shooting at. The military would probably put it down – hard -. Thus they would create martyrs – thus enabling a cycle of violence to go on… perhaps until it breaks us all.

      Getting carried away – but I think that the stakes are beyond high. I think 2020 will determine the fate of America, for many, many years to come. Or for the few we have left, as the case may be.


      @dudester

      Okay, that does ring a bell.  I’ll have to look it up.  Perhaps Vichy dem does work better than calling them assholes.  Of course, we can always do both.

    • #51724
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,230

      @charles

      My friend, I once would have agreed with every word of that.  I can’t anymore.  Beto, Buttigieg, Harris, Booker and so on and so forth… their positions on the issues?  They “evolve” as is politically and/or financially convenient.  Brother, these are people who went to Ivy league schools, who never had to worry about their next meal, who have never known even a one hundredth of the hardships that most of us have known.  Wealth – and a life of privilege – alone, that would not be enough for me to write them off.  Their stance on the issues is.

      Not a one of them supports the majority of progressive issues as does Sanders, or Gabbard – or even Warren.  I used to like Yang because of the UBI proposal – then I realized that he intended to replace social security with it.  Not so much anymore.  It is not so much a matter of accepting the good as opposed to the perfect – rather, it is a matter of desperation – and the urgency of time.  I don’t think many (perhaps not any) here will disagree with me when I say that ours is growing short, as a Nation, as a people – even, perhaps, for civilization itself.  We can alter this only through drastic action – desperate times call for desperate measures.

      The current corporate dems running… they are not running for you, or for me, or for the sake of their people.  They are running for power and money – the same reason that 99% of politicians really run for office.  Occasionally, very occasionally, there are exceptions like Sanders.  I do not know if such a future can exist in which there are more dedicated to public service than to greed.  I can only hope.  But if we continue to empower, or permit to gain power… those who serve the 1%, the wealthy, who are always going to be members of that entitled, privileged, absurdly wealthy class… at the expense of everyone… and everything else…

      Then we are punching our own ticket.  They would not support a green new deal – though it does not go far enough.  They would not support even a public option for healthcare – even when they had an overwhelming majority.  They did not move us towards peace, they did not rebuild our infrastructure, our education, what they did do was bailout financial institutions, corporations in general.  What they did do was start wars and murder people – or at least sign off on those murders.  What they did do was steal – and permit the further stealing of the resources of the people of this Country… and of this world.

      We can’t let them continue…. such, anyhow, is my not so humble opinion.  The time has come, I firmly believe, that we must draw a line in the sand, for our own sake, for humanity’s sake… and for the sake of all future generations.  Trump is terrible – but electing someone somewhat less terrible will not help us.  We need someone actually good.  We need many such – and we must be such ourselves.  To negotiate, to compromise with those who will continue to maintain the status quo…

      I won’t, can’t do it.  I understand your position – and I respect you as I always have.  I strongly disagree on these points though.  I think is extremely important that we be united in our resistance – not just to the right, but to those who are supposedly on the left… who have already betrayed us more times than we can count.

      Just my ten cents.

      • #51753
        Charles
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,660

        @DavidtheGnome

        I have a great deal of respect for you. Obviously we disagree here. That’s fine. Not everyone is going to agree on all things.

        There is a lot of corruption in the Democratic party and some of the Democratic candidates are certainly corporate Democrats. It’s not like I relish the idea of Harris or Biden presidency. I most certainly don’t.

        The reality is what it is though. Under Trump 7 million Americans have lost their health insurance. That number could rise to 30 million. A Democrat like Harris or Buttigieg could be pressured to sign Medicare For All and most likely would if it had the enough support to pass congress. Trump would veto it plain and simple.

        Politics are ugly. And corruption is everywhere. I don’t like it and that’s why I support Bernie, Warren, and Gabbard. I like Stein and the Greens as well.

        But results are important to me. John Conyers, Bernie Sanders , Elizabeth Warren, and others called out Obama when he suggested he’d put Social Security cuts on the table. Obama folded after that.

         

        Barack Obama Once Proposed Cutting Social Security. Here’s What Changed His Mind.

        Sometimes, activism works.

        With Trump it’s not even an option. No amount of pressure from Bernie and progressives would change his mind.

        Obama let me down on many issues and actions. But he did get tens of millions of Americans insured, ended the era of preexisting conditions, he made progress on wind and solar, and after Clinton left as SoS he got a deal done with Iran and improved relations with Cuba.

        Still I was very upset with Obama for a number of reasons including leaving single payer off the table, letting Hillary go wild as SoS, and appointing Eric Holder as AG to let off the corrupt Wall Street banks.

        I don’t have any illusion of a corporate Democrat playing ball on all issues.  But I look at the alternative of 4 more years of Trump and that leaves me without any hope that Bernie’s efforts will come to fruition at the national level. It’s not like we’re just getting a bad GOP egg with Trump. We are getting one of the absolute worst case scenarios.

        The environment is already passed a certain point of no return and we are running out of time. Another 4 years of an anti environment president isn’t going to work. This is on top of the potential 30 million who may lose health insurance and the fiscal irresponsibility that will sink our economy if not corrected. It’s not about trusting or liking the alternative because realistically we may not have that luxury.

        If Bernie isn’t the nominee he will want to work work with a Democrat in office rather than Trump. That’s where I’m at when the dust settles. It’s not some mindless slogan like “vote blue no matter who”. It’s the reality of which candidate is better overall and is best to help Bernie accomplish his progressive agenda.

        Regardless of our differences on this I do wish you the best and enjoy your writing. You are certainly talented. Peace….

         

         

        Bernie: "Not Me. Us"

    • #51731
      closeupready
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,587

      Awesome rant, and I completely agree.  I now consider myself an independent (small “i”).

      If they nominate Kamala or Beto or Biden, I will not be voting for the Democrat, that much I know.

      The opinions and personal views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and should never be taken seriously.

    • #51752
      Pam2
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 8,873

      If Bernie doesn’t win the nomination we will know they cheated again. Simple as that.  None of the other members of the clown car will be able to garner the support he has.

       

       

       

       

       

    • #51758
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,230

      @charles

      We are on the same side, in any event.  We both want the same things.  It is my devout hope (and I will do everything I can to bring it to reality) that Bernie Sanders will win the nomination and the Presidency.  I don’t really have any faith in most of the others.  Gabbard, yes.. Warren… maybe, Yang – not really.  Williamson is starting to look more interesting (though I do not believe she has any real hope of winning the nomination).

      Hopefully, if not Bernie – then at least someone we can rely on will win the Presidency.  You are right that, if it is Trump… we are all in for a very bad time.  It is my thinking though – that if a Vichy/corporate/asshole dem ends up being the nominee that runs against Trump… the democrats will lose.  As terrible as he is, he has a pretty firm grip on the right – and his base is… for want of a better word… fanatical.  I still won’t vote for those I believe are servants of the oligarchs – but I understand your feelings on results.

      It is just that… I believe we are in very, very desperate times.  I believe it will take equally desperate measures to get us through them.  Can’t see the centrist type doing that – or anything at all like that.

    • #52019
      Robot X
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 524

      I’m done with voting for establishment/corporate bought Democrats. The corporate bought Republicans are headed for the cliff at 100 mph. Corporate bought Democrats are headed in the same direction at 50 mph. The car needs to be turned around. Destroying American families incrementally rather than at full throttle does not inspire me to vote Democratic.

      • #52313
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 21,758

        Good analogy. Neocons want to boil the frog(ie the wealth of the majority of us and the health of the biosphere itself) ASAP, and put a lid on the pot to keep it from jumping out, neolibs want to slowly boil the frog and claim they are better because they don’t want to put a lid on the pot, at least not yet.

        The wrong direction is the wrong direction. The lesser evil is still evil.

        It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

        You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

Viewing 29 reply threads
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.