A sacreligeous proposal – vote a straight Republican ticket this midterm election.

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    • #495742
      jbnw
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 9,912

      This is an extreme response to an extreme problem of the destruction of Ukraine and Ukrainian people with the full support of the Democratic President and office-holders, and the increasing risk of a global, possibly nuclear war.

      This has the full, unequivocal support of my Ukrainian wife, who has lived through the civil war in Ukraine, the Minsk accords agreed to and ignored by the US, and her participation in the diaspora of Ukrainians from Ukraine.

      Biden, and those who fund an endless war in Ukraine, are destroying Ukraine in their attempt to destroy Russia – and taking the US and the West down with them as well. As far as I can tell, the US has unlimited money for Ukraine with the Democrats controlling the Presidency, House and Senate.

      Maybe, just maybe, if the Congress is turned over to another party, the destruction of Ukraine can be stopped. Maybe. But today, the power plant supporting my wife’s town was destroyed, along with many others, in response to the US providing weaponry used by Ukraine to bomb targets in Russia. Amazingly, she could call a friend there today, but I don’t know how long that will last. The latest news is high school students are being conscripted for their destruction in the Ukrainian army – they are having to register at the local post office.

      This war wouldn’t have happened if the US actually believed in democracy. The Democrats obviously don’t – perhaps enough Republicans do, or at least don’t want to keep spending billions on a proxy war against Russia that destroys Ukraine, a country thousands of miles from US borders.

      I am still a bleeding-heart liberal who would have loved to have seen what Bernie Sanders could have done.

      Instead, I have seen what Biden and his handlers have done – let’s see if we can stop them and those who support them.

      This goes against my rule of only voting who you want to see in office, but perhaps we can have a long discussion if the Democrats don’t manage to turn the planet into glass.

    • #495743
      NV Wino
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 9,647

      🙁

      “As we act, let us not become the evil that we deplore.” Barbara Lee
      “Politicians and pro athletes: The only people who still get paid when they lose.” William Rivers Pitt

      • #495744
        MizzGrizz
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 3,929

        but at least a few of them seem to be anti war.

      • #495898
        Jim Lane
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,092

        @jbnw

        What I gather from your post is that you hope for the following:
        1. People who agree with you vote a straight Republican ticket.
        2. The Republicans take the majority in the House and/or the Senate.
        3. One result of Republican control is that U.S. military aid to Ukraine is reduced or eliminated.

        Then, after a few more steps, the final result is that “the destruction of Ukraine [is] stopped.”

        If I’ve misread you, please correct me.

        What I want to follow up on is how we get from #3 above to #n where the destruction of Ukraine is stopped. I’ll set out what I see as one plausible path. It begins with the observation that both the Ukrainian military and the Russian military have sustained devastating losses in the fighting so far. Russia has continued to fight because it has a larger economy and a larger population, and is better able to bear the losses of people and materiel. Ukraine has continued to fight because it has more at stake (the majority of Ukrainians are willing to fight rather than concede a big chunk of Ukrainian territory to Russia) and because support from the U.S. and other Western countries has partially countered the Russian advantages. Hence, neither side has achieved a clear-cut victory on the battlefield.

        With that in mind, here’s what might happen, as the continuation of your scenario:
        4. With the U.S. reducing or eliminating its support for Ukraine, the military balance shifts in Russia’s favor. (This effect could be augmented if other Western governments react to the U.S. change by reducing or eliminating their own aid to Ukraine.)
        5. The Russian military pushes the Ukrainian military out of all the Ukrainian territory recently claimed by Russia as now being part of Russia.
        6. Russian military success causes a substantial shift in Ukrainian public opinion. A large number of Ukrainians come to favor ending on the war, even on terms that they would now reject.
        7. There is a negotiated settlement, essentially amounting to Ukrainian capitulation. Ukraine agrees to the formal transfer to Russia of the Crimea plus the four areas recently announced as “annexed” by Putin. In addition, Ukraine accepts a Russian-drafted amendment to its constitution to prohibit membership in NATO and possibly in the European Union as well. Russia has also stated “denazification” as one of its war aims, and it turns out that Russia has a very expansive concept of who’s a nazi. The peace settlement also provides that Ukraine must ban from political life any individual or party who criticized the Russian invasion.
        8. The fighting stops.

        The negotiated settlement might also include annexation by Russia of the rest of Ukraine’s coastline, leaving a rump Ukrainian state with no access to the sea. It might also go further in controlling Ukraine’s internal affairs, leaving in power in Kyiv what is essentially a Russian puppet government. Alternatively, perhaps Russia doesn’t insist on those points – at least not right now.

        Is that an example of the kind of outcome you’re hoping for by voting Republican? If not, would you elaborate, with a similar level of specificity, about what you would like to see?

         

        ETA: Sorry, this was supposed to be a response to jbnw, not NV Wino.

        • #495900
          Ohio Barbarian
          Moderator
          • Total Posts: 25,301

          I think the main thing he wants is simply for the fighting to stop. His wife is Ukrainian, you know.

          For the record, I think your scenario is plausible no matter who the Speaker of the House or President of the Senate is come 2023. Russia will incorporate Crimea and at least the majority of the four other provinces it recently annexed. Right now, I think there is a chance that Ukraine will be allowed to keep Odessa and the western Black Sea littoral, but if the war goes on that chance will evaporate, especially if the Ukrainian Army collapses and the Russians actually occupy it.

          The war only continues because Biden and Congress continue to send billions of bucks of weapons to Ukraine at the expense of the American people who so desperately need some help right now. If they stop, Ukraine falls if it continues to fight. It really can be that simple.

          Never let your morals stop you from doing the right thing.--Isaac Asimov

          The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them.--Julius Nyerere

        • #495903
          jbnw
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 9,912

          I’d also add the hope that ending, or at least moving the Ukraine conflict into negotiations again, moves the idea of nuclear war out of the realm of possibility, where it is now.

          I am not certain that the majority of Ukrainians are willing to fight, or continue to fight. Not long ago there wasn’t that much of a difference between Ukrainians and Russians – they were all part of the same country (USSR). It’s like a war between Idahoans and Montanans from one viewpoint.

          And yes, I do get small insights from Ukraine through my wife. Yesterday she got a call from an acquaintance in Odessa – that one, small sample of one just wants Russia to come take Odessa, and hopefully quickly so the city isn’t destroyed.

          I do not know any way to get an accurate picture of how the citizens of Ukraine feel now, but I really, really suspect that those who remain in Ukraine just want it to be over.


          @jimlane
          @ohiobarbarian

          • #496001
            Jim Lane
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 1,092
          • #496002
            Jim Lane
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 1,092

            @jbnw

            Fortunately, I think it’s unlikely, but it’s not totally out of the question. Fair odds would maybe give it a 10 percent chance.

            At the other extreme, Russian capitulation could take this form: Russia continues to suffer severe battlefield losses, plus the effects of sanctions, for no obvious good. Rising opposition to the war, from the Russian public and within the ruling elite, leads to Putin’s overthrow and a Russian withdrawal. That’s also unlikely. I’ll put it at 5 percent.

            I don’t see much chance of a negotiation leading to any kind of mutually acceptable compromise. Putin has said he wants to negotiate – BUT that his purported annexation of a big chunk of Ukraine is a done deal and he won’t discuss it in any negotiation. Not one square centimeter of what is now (according to him) part of Mother Russia is on the table. His stance reinforces my previous view that there’s no prospect of a negotiated settlement that both sides can live with.

            What’s left is a war that drags on for quite a while yet. No nukes, but no peace.

            An analogy in American history is the Civil War. At the outset, many people on each side expected a quick war, ending of course with their side’s easy victory. (“On to Washington!” and “On to Richmond!” were popular battle cries.) In the spring of 1861, no one expected a war that would last four years and kill several hundred thousand people. But that’s what happened. Wars have a way of getting out of hand like that.

            Ukraine, acting unilaterally, could end the war tomorrow. Russia, acting unilaterally, could end the war tomorrow. Neither will do so.

            A continuing war would be a bad outcome. The only thing to be said for it is that for the West to end the war, by forcing Ukraine to knuckle under to Russia’s imperialist aggression, would be an even worse outcome.

            • #496022
              Ohio Barbarian
              Moderator
              • Total Posts: 25,301

              He could abandon all claims to Odessa and the western Black Sea littoral. Russian troops have not gotten that far–yet–and it would allow Ukraine a port, which I think is important to their economy. Putin may also compromise and split a couple of the disputed eastern provinces with Ukraine.

              I don’t see anywhere else that Putin might be willing to budge. What the Ukrainian government wants really doesn’t matter. They don’t have the ability to reconquer all of that lost territory.

              Never let your morals stop you from doing the right thing.--Isaac Asimov

              The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them.--Julius Nyerere

              • #496047
                Jim Lane
                Participant
                • Total Posts: 1,092

                @ohiobarbarian

                Barring a huge change in the military and political situations, the Ukrainian government would not agree to any significant de jure surrender of territory, even territory under Russian de facto control. That’s even before we talk about Putin’s demands for partial control over the Ukrainian government.

                By analogy, the government of Cyprus doesn’t have the ability to reconquer all the territory lost to the Turkish invasion of 1974 (link). Despite that military fact and the passage of nearly five decades, the government has never acceded to the de facto border. Turkey set up a puppet government in the area it conquered, but this supposed “state” – the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus – is not recognized by any country except Turkey. The international community still considers the entire island to be part of the Republic of Cyprus, and regards the Turkish army on part of the island as an occupying force.

                The Ukrainian military has demonstrated that it can push the Russians back in some local engagements. Nevertheless, you’re probably right that Ukraine can’t expel the Russian occupiers from all of Ukraine. What Ukraine can do is to follow the example of Cyprus and refuse to legitimize the aggression. Ukraine can continue to insist on the integrity of its 1994 borders, which Russia formally agreed to respect in the Budapest Memorandum (link) in exchange for Ukraine’s agreement to forgo nuclear weapons.

                I gather that you think Ukraine might agree to ratify Russia’s conquest of part of its territory, in exchange for Russia’s solemn promise to respect the new borders (i.e., a Russian agreement not to advance to Odesa). I can’t see that as much of an incentive for Ukraine. As of right now, it doesn’t look as if Russia has the capability to conquer a large new swath of Ukrainian territory. More to the point, how much is such a promise worth? Russia already agreed to respect Ukraine’s borders, and agreed not to use force or the threat of force, and then violated those promises. If I were a Ukrainian leader, I would ask: “If we were to go along with this deal, our country would be smaller, with fewer people, and less industry. We’d be left with even less ability to resist future Russian aggression. Meanwhile, Russia would rebuild its military, unimpeded by the Western sanctions that would presumably be lifted. When Russia thinks it’s ready, it would launch another invasion, aimed at Odesa. So what’s in it for us?”

                A long-term question is the effect of the sanctions on Russia. With no negotiated agreement, Russia will, as you say, maintain its military control over much of Ukraine, but that will probably not be a basis for ending the sanctions. In the United States, at least, I think that most voters will continue to support Ukraine. We are paying a lesser price for the sanctions than is Western Europe. If the Russian military is occupying part of Ukraine but the Russian economy is suffering as the sanctions go into their second and third year, will enough Russians (the masses and the elites) decide that Putin has to go? If he simply dies of natural causes (he just turned 70), will his successor take the opportunity for a face-saving withdrawal? The point is that, if the sanctions do prove to be a long-term burden on Russia, then Ukraine will still have some leverage, even without being able to win a complete victory on the battlefield.

                • #496048
                  djean111
                  Participant
                  • Total Posts: 9,081

                  ethnic Russian civilians?   The Ukrainian Nazis are pretty proud of that, it seems to me, calling them orcs and cockroaches. This little factoid means that I will never be “pro-Ukraine” or vote for anyone who aids and abets Nazis.  IMO, the Nazis would just continue to murder civilians.  Been interesting as fuck to see who has gotten in bed with the Nazis.  At this point, if Bernie himself called me up or came to my front door, in search of a vote, I would ignore him.

                  America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)

                  "Sometimes when I try to understand a person's motives, I play a little game. I assume the worst. What's the worst reason they could possibly have for saying what they say and doing what they do? Then I ask myself, 'How well does that reason explain what they say and what they do?'" Baelish

                  VFTBNMW is, IMO, literally "take the blue pill".

                • #496057
                  Ohio Barbarian
                  Moderator
                  • Total Posts: 25,301

                  The Turks ARE still occupying a third of the island, yes? So what good did that do the Greek Cypriots, except to salve their pride?

                  You mention the Budapest Memorandum, but conveniently neglect to mention the Minsk Accords. Please read up on them. You can’t really understand the Ukrainian civil war, and that’s what it started out to be, without understanding those, and the fact that it was the Ukrainian government that broke the accords, not the Ukrainian separatists or the Russians.

                  As for the sanctions, they are clearly hurting Europeans and Americans far more than they are hurting Russia. I don’t believe in sanctions for the most part, for they always impact the common people but seldom the leaders. The sanctions on Russia are downright idiotic. Russia is expanding its trade network and popularity all over the world(except the West and Japan), while the American and European economies are being severely damaged, and maybe crippled, by them while the US loses credibility.

                  We’ve already lost the petrodollar as the global reserve currency, and it will get much worse. Saudi Arabia, India, and nearly all of Africa and Latin America are refusing to take part in the sanctions.

                  Most voters will NOT continue to support Ukraine in the long run. Why should they? They’re hurting, they’re going to hurt more, and all that carte blanche aid to one of the most corrupt regimes IN THE WORLD will cause resentment, and it should. In the end, what Ukrainians want will not matter.

                  Just like it has seldom mattered in history. They’re in a bad location. What can I say? Furthermore, and most importantly, Ukrainian freedom or whatever is not worth a nuclear war with Russia, and Russia has certain reasonable national security interests that they will not compromise on. Just like the US didn’t compromise in October 1962.

                  Never let your morals stop you from doing the right thing.--Isaac Asimov

                  The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them.--Julius Nyerere

                  • #496133
                    Jim Lane
                    Participant
                    • Total Posts: 1,092

                    @ohiobarbarian

                    The Minsk agreements failed to end the violence. For that failure, every participant pointed the finger at someone else. I suspect that no one – not the Ukrainian government, not the Russian government, not the separatists – was completely blameless.

                    About the Budapest Memorandum, however, there is no such nuance or ambiguity. Ukraine agreed to give up the Soviet-era nuclear weapons on its territory and agreed not to develop its own nukes. In return, Russia agreed to respect Ukraine’s borders, as they stood in 1994, and further agreed not to use force or the threat of force against Ukraine.

                    Ukraine completely complied with the agreement. Russia has grossly violated it.

                    This comment of yours is interesting: “You mention the Budapest Memorandum, but conveniently neglect to mention the Minsk Accords.” There have been multiple posts on JPR about Minsk. Did you criticize any of them for conveniently neglecting to mention the Budapest Memorandum? If you, or anyone else, made such a point, I didn’t happen to read it.

                    The problem, obviously, is the JPR tendency to start with the conclusion. A common preconception here is that Ukraine and its Western supporters are completely at fault. From that point of view, the Budapest Memorandum is extremely inconvenient, so it must be ignored. With regard to Minsk, it would be inconvenient to acknowledge any violations by Russia and its separatist allies. Instead, the unstated assumption seems to be that the failure of the Minsk process is totally and solely Ukraine’s fault.

                    Of course, for immediate practical purposes, it doesn’t matter what you think and it doesn’t matter what I think. The point I was making about the Budapest Memorandum is its impact on current prospects for a negotiated agreement. Russia might, as part of the negotiation, offer to promise to respect Ukraine’s (redrawn!) borders, and not to use force or the threat of force against Ukraine. How much would that promise be worth to Ukraine? It seems reasonable to suppose that Ukraine’s leaders would deem that promise to be utterly worthless. Been there, done that.

                    Also factor in Putin’s public statement that he won’t allow any negotiation about his territorial claims. The regions purportedly “annexed” to Russia can’t be discussed.

                    A negotiated settlement has to be acceptable to both sides. I simply can’t envision any terms that would come anywhere close to meeting that standard. I could certainly specify terms that I would consider just, but Russia would never accept them. I’m guessing that you also could endorse terms, but that your terms would never be accepted by Ukraine. Therefore, this war is nowhere near over.

                    • #496135
                      Ohio Barbarian
                      Moderator
                      • Total Posts: 25,301

                      For 8 years. Hint: it wasn’t the Russians or the Russian-speaking eastern Ukrainians.

                      If you want to keep going back to past agreements, why not go back to Poppy Bush’s promise to Gorbachev that NATO would not expand one step east of Germany? There is little point to that now. Now, arguing over whether Budapest or Minsk takes precedence is an exercise in uselessness.

                      Whatever, the war will end when either when the West figures out it is weakening itself more than Russia with this proxy war, or when the Russians force the Kiev regime to capitulate in spite of Western aid. Either way, Ukraine will lose, like it has always lost when facing a stronger power.

                      My position as an American is very simple, and based on George Washington’s warning about entangling alliances. It is simply not in our interests to risk a war with Russia over ANY country in eastern Europe, and Europe in general is perfectly capable of defending itself against any Russian aggression.

                      Therefore this country should get out of NATO altogether. It served its purpose. It helped win the Cold War. Now it’s a military alliance always seeking an enemy so the capitalist weapons manufacturers can profit off of it. IOW, it’s useless and sometimes dangerous to all of the peoples it is supposed to protect. Not to mention everybody else.

                      Even you, Jim.

                      Never let your morals stop you from doing the right thing.--Isaac Asimov

                      The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them.--Julius Nyerere

                      • #496166
                        Jim Lane
                        Participant
                        • Total Posts: 1,092

                        @ohiobarbarian

                        As I thought I’d made clear, my principal point in referencing the Budapest Memorandum was its effect on current prospects for a negotiated settlement. You’re free to believe that remembering the outcome of that negotiation is “an exercise in uselessness.” I doubt that Ukraine’s leaders see it that way. They know that Russia promised to respect Ukraine’s borders and then violated that promise. That fact will be prominent in their minds if anyone proposes a settlement in which Russia promises to respect Ukraine’s borders. Why should they think such a promise would have any value?

                        The subject you prefer to address is the opportunity to criticize anyone on your Designated Villains list. On that basis, you criticize NATO expansion. I’m confident that, in assessing a possible negotiated settlement of the current conflict, the leaders of Ukraine will not give a rat’s ass about whether the U.S. under Poppy Bush made a promise that it broke.

                        As for Minsk, I’m not surprised that you think it’s “real clear” whom to blame for the failure of the process. You might want to follow your own advice and read up on the subject. A place to start would be the Wikipedia article – link – and the numerous sources cited therein. You can cherry-pick the links that are unfavorable to Ukraine, while ignoring those that go the other way. A messy situation like that one is “real clear” only to people who begin with the conclusion they want to reach. In that regard, you should find the Wikipedia article helpful. It includes several passages reporting the statements of Russia and the pro-Russian separatists. Just make note of those passages and treat everything those sources say as gospel truth. Then, presto, Russia and pro-Russian separatists are totally blameless.

                      • #496171
                        Ohio Barbarian
                        Moderator
                        • Total Posts: 25,301

                        I don’t give a shit what the Ukrainian government wants, and my government shouldn’t give a shit, either. Russia is important. They are not.

                        That’s just the way it is.

                        Never let your morals stop you from doing the right thing.--Isaac Asimov

                        The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them.--Julius Nyerere

                    • #496136
                      closeupready
                      Participant
                      • Total Posts: 3,792

                      (Are you here all week?)

                      The opinions and personal views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and should never be taken seriously.

                    • #496141
                      djean111
                      Participant
                      • Total Posts: 9,081

                      With calling ethnic Russians orcs and cockroaches and punishing/killing them for being ethnic Russians.  Which, incidentally, is how I think the US government thinks of we inconvenient citizens.  We are just another resource, not really human to them.  IMO.

                      Just look at this clip of AOC dancing to her constituent’s anger about her support of the war.  THAT is how our government sees us, no matter what jersey they are wearing.  Here it is   – and also here is the Democrats’ propaganda – these were not right-wing protesters, these are AOC’s constituents.  Her entitled contempt is pretty obvious.  Two shit sandwiches for the price of one.

                      America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)

                      "Sometimes when I try to understand a person's motives, I play a little game. I assume the worst. What's the worst reason they could possibly have for saying what they say and doing what they do? Then I ask myself, 'How well does that reason explain what they say and what they do?'" Baelish

                      VFTBNMW is, IMO, literally "take the blue pill".

                      • #496164
                        closeupready
                        Participant
                        • Total Posts: 3,792

                        You know, a couple weeks ago, you and I debated whether she’s smart or stupid, and we agreed that she’s smart.

                        Now I’m beginning to second-guess myself on our previous answer to that question.

                        Book smart, unquestionably.

                        Challenged with regard to social skills, however? Probably that, too, considering how stupid she is when it comes to appearing at the Met Gala in a Oscar de la Renta gown without a COVID mask, how she cowers when “Mama Bear” Pelosi growls at her, how she votes in favor of war and bloated military budgets, every single time.

                        Now, she’s just a common Democratic crook. The fact that – in the dancing footage here – she’s not even TRYING to defend herself, and instead seems to be amusing herself by poking fun of those who are angry at her… WTF?

                        But again, as I said before, none of this will matter to the voters in her district. They will send her back to Congress, no matter what she does, because her voters DO NOT THINK, they simply DO AS THEY ARE TOLD.

                        So getting upset about her arrogant ways, it’s pointless and a waste of energy.

                        The opinions and personal views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and should never be taken seriously.

            • #496028
              jbnw
              Participant
              • Total Posts: 9,912

              but I rather doubt that Putin will allow Odessa, Dnepropetrovsk and Kharkiv oblasts to remain in Ukraine. Russian speakers there would remain subject to the anti-Russian laws in Ukraine.

              It’s also against the Ukrainian constitution which supports all minority languages. Or did – I’m not sure of recent changes.

        • #495904
          jbnw
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 9,912

          is that the Ukrainian government was just informed that if the Democrats fall out of power in the mid-term elections, the support for Ukraine may be defunded.

          I don’t believe it’s going over well in Kyiv (or wherever the government really is today).

          • #495909
            djean111
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 9,081

            a dam and inflict ruinous environmental damage, and keep trying, maniacally, to blow up a nuclear power plant.  To keep the money flowing.

            America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)

            "Sometimes when I try to understand a person's motives, I play a little game. I assume the worst. What's the worst reason they could possibly have for saying what they say and doing what they do? Then I ask myself, 'How well does that reason explain what they say and what they do?'" Baelish

            VFTBNMW is, IMO, literally "take the blue pill".

            • #495913
              jbnw
              Participant
              • Total Posts: 9,912

              And I cannot understand how this US administration can support any of this, or any member of Congress.

              But then, all of this is being blamed on Russia, which does support the US narrative.

    • #495751
      Passionate Progressive
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 5,657

      posted in Multimedia – how the far right is falsely exploiting (How the Far Right is Co-opting Antiwar Rhetoric to Further Imperialism) the anti-war movement….and how Lenin warned of tailism….

      https://socialistvoice.ie/2020/02/combating-tailism-and-economism/

      The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.....Martin Luther King '63

      It takes all the technical proficiency our system can provide to make up for the woeful lack of popular support and political savvy of most of the regimes that the West has thus far sought to prop up.........Bernard Fall

    • #495753
      jbnw
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 9,912

      But my hope if the city officers, state governors, state house and senates, US house and US senate change to Republican maybe, just maybe, the @#$%ing Democratic party might actually notice that the people that they once represented having realized that the Democratic party is now the party of war, and no longer represent the goals of the previous incarnation of the party.

      So I’m going to try. I want the planet, and us, to still exist!!

    • #495756
      retired liberal
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 5,107

      Giving the government over to the Republicans, probably would end up giving us a religious based, right-wing dictatorship. with honest voting rights a lost memory.

      We are an arrogant species, believing our fantasy based "facts" are better than the other person's fake facts.
      If Row vs. Wade is overturned, women could lose the right to not get pregnant in 26 states.
      The Republicans are four year olds. The Democrats are six year olds. There are no grownups.
      Normalizing insanity has been the conservative's sweet spot at very least since the beginning..

      • #495757
        chknltl
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,985

        Name even one issue that will survive a full nuclear holocaust.

        The Blue Team is pushing for that.

        At least some of the Red Team is pushing back.

        Hell, even Trump is calling for negotiations!

        For the first time, this ex supporter of the Blue Team is voting straight Red and crossing my fingers.

        • #495758
          retired liberal
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 5,107

          That is a given.

          As in eliminate both. I an living on my social security.

          Nuclear war is a threat to control us. Nobody in their right mind wants a nuclear war. There are saner governments than our own government.

          Edited to add:
          The current so-called Republican party is insane. We aremore likely to be destroyed by them.

          We are an arrogant species, believing our fantasy based "facts" are better than the other person's fake facts.
          If Row vs. Wade is overturned, women could lose the right to not get pregnant in 26 states.
          The Republicans are four year olds. The Democrats are six year olds. There are no grownups.
          Normalizing insanity has been the conservative's sweet spot at very least since the beginning..

          • #495765
            Ohio Barbarian
            Moderator
            • Total Posts: 25,301

            Joe Biden has pushed us to the brink of nuclear war over a country that is not at all vital to our national interests but is to Russia’s. How is any Republican more dangerous than Biden and that bunch of warmongering Ivy League idiots running our foreign policy right now?

            Never let your morals stop you from doing the right thing.--Isaac Asimov

            The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them.--Julius Nyerere

          • #495772
            chknltl
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 1,985

            …and their infrastructure is so destroyed that food and water are very hard to come by.

            Many say Putin is a madman. (I do not). Many say Biden is a madman. (Again I do not). For the sake of argument what is the likely outcome of backing either of these two into a corner-a corner where their country and their own existence is on the line?

            Putin is backed into that corner thanks to our M.I.C.’s control over U.S. led NATO. If he is unable to secure his borders he may indeed go nuke.

            I have no doubt that Biden and the M.I.C. hawks who control him are not going to stop pushing.

            The only way to avert a nuclear catastrophe is through negotiations. If you think Biden and co. are considering negotiations, well please tell me about this because I have not heard of any such intentions.

            Thinking that M.A.D. will stop Biden at this point is not something I would bet the farm on.

            Under the directions of the M.I.C. who controlled the Clinton administration, NATO started tbe Cold War back up by selling arms to what were once Warsaw Pact countries.

            Then one by one we moved NATO forces into those countries.

            This was a direct breach of the Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty.

            The Russians begged us to stop, they wanted negotiations but like for instance the Minsk Accord in 2014, U.S. led NATO ignored it all.

            Was it right that the U.S. risked a Nuke war with Russia back during the Cuban Missile Crises?

            Cooler heads prevailed, we pulled our nukes out of Italy and Turkey and the Russians removed their nukes from Cuba.

            We risked a nuclear war with Russia because we wanted no hostile forces in the Western Hemisphere as stipulated in the Monroe Doctrine.

            What is wrong with Russia having it’s own version of the Monroe Doctrine? Well that was exactly what the Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty gave them…until we spit on it.

            I suspect you know much or more of this backstory retired liberal. I added it to show you how imho, Russia has been backed into a corner and the U.S.led NATO has not stopped pushing.

            • #495773
              jbnw
              Participant
              • Total Posts: 9,912

              I see the value of the ruble, and Germany will stop accepting the hryvnia (Ukrainian currency) at the end of the month.

              I see a positive Russian economy.

              I see countries joining BRICS.

              I see sanctions hurting those who imposed them as the US prepared Russia for them.

              I see positive Presidential ratings.

              I see actual diplomacy, where possible.

              We will see what the next month brings – or at least I hope we will.

              • #495775
                chknltl
                Participant
                • Total Posts: 1,985

                That said, the U.S. has not stopped sending money and arms into Ukraine.

                Even if, (and I doubt this), U.S. and other NATO arms shipments are enough to wear down the Russian Military, that would likely be Russia’s last straw. (Its not like they would surrender.)

                It appears this is the very thing the U.S. is pushing for.

                On the plus side, it is getting very cold in Europe. If enough citizens take to the streets in protest, maybe European leaders will have a change of heart regarding their relations with NATO and the U.S.

                • #495778
                  jbnw
                  Participant
                  • Total Posts: 9,912

                  make it to the Ukrainian army – 60 minutes, WSJ or some such Western source. We’re (the US) is paying Ukrainian military and government salaries – and probably quite a bit under the table. It’s normal in Ukraine – black and gray salaries.

                  So a lot is now ordered, but not sent as the MIC has to make more. Great for the corporations, not so great for us taxpayers.

                  • #495803
                    chknltl
                    Participant
                    • Total Posts: 1,985

                    I know I saw this on the YouTube show Redacted, (not to be confused with Redacted Tonight), and maybe also on Jimmy Dore.

                    I believe I wrote a piece on this here at JPR before we went dark.

                    It is scary knowing that this or that terrorist group can purchase weaponry that can take down passenger jets!

          • #496058
            djean111
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 9,081

            https://theintercept.com/2020/01/13/biden-cuts-social-security/

            And after a Republican wave swept Congress in 1994, Biden’s support for cutting Social Security, and his general advocacy for budget austerity, made him a leading combatant in the centrist-wing battle against the party’s retreating liberals in the 1980s and ’90s.

            “When I argued that we should freeze federal spending, I meant Social Security as well,” he told the Senate in 1995. “I meant Medicare and Medicaid. I meant veterans’ benefits. I meant every single solitary thing in the government. And I not only tried it once, I tried it twice, I tried it a third time, and I tried it a fourth time.” (A freeze would have reduced the amount that would be paid out, cutting the program’s benefit.)

            ….

            Biden himself, at least on his campaign website, now supports making Social Security more generous, not less. But that’s at odds with decades of his own advocacy, a record that could become a major political liability among voters concerned Biden will finally get his wish to trim back Social Security checks. Because about half of black seniors on Social Security rely on it as their primary means of support, any trimming of the program hits those beneficiaries particularly hard.

            Over the years, Biden, in speeches and interviews, has often taken pains to let listeners know that he’s taking an unpopular stance, being explicit about the risk he knows he’s taking.   “One of the things my political advisers say to me, is, whoa, don’t touch that third rail,” Biden told Tim Russert on “Meet the Press,” while running for president in 2007.

            What ANY Dem politician says on their campaign website is, IMO, pandering bullshit and lies.  Also, Obama tried to serve Social Security up to being cut with his Cat-food Commission.  Like every other issue that affects Americans, Social Security (and Medicare) are merely campaign pandering tools for the Democrats, and it would be foolish indeed to base a vote on what they say.

            Biden would never touch Social Security –  BEFORE an election.

            America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)

            "Sometimes when I try to understand a person's motives, I play a little game. I assume the worst. What's the worst reason they could possibly have for saying what they say and doing what they do? Then I ask myself, 'How well does that reason explain what they say and what they do?'" Baelish

            VFTBNMW is, IMO, literally "take the blue pill".

      • #495764
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 25,301

        .

        Never let your morals stop you from doing the right thing.--Isaac Asimov

        The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them.--Julius Nyerere

      • #495769
        jbnw
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 9,912

        seems a good single issue to me.

        If that fails, no other issues matter.

        Ever.

    • #495766
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 25,301

      I don’t trust the Republicans, either. I suppose I could vote Libertarian, at least they’re anti-imperialist and pro-weed.

      I might actually vote for JD Vance for Senate. At least he’s aware that a nuclear war would kill his own family, which puts him ahead of the Democrat. Ryan’s a total tool, and it’s obvious.

      Never let your morals stop you from doing the right thing.--Isaac Asimov

      The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them.--Julius Nyerere

      • #495770
        jbnw
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 9,912

        and I respect the choices of everyone. Well, everyone here 🙂 as we’ve thought about it.

        And I strongly suspect that if someone with my liberal heritage is pushed this far, I’m likely not to be the only one.

        We’ll find out very soon – and I really don’t know what to expect. I suspect that not many people are giving honest answers to pollsters right now.

        • #495783
          Ohio Barbarian
          Moderator
          • Total Posts: 25,301

          There are no Libertarians on the ballot this year. No third party candidates whatsoever. Other than voting against a couple of horrible warmongering Democrats by voting for a couple of Republicans who might be just as horrible if elected, there’s really no reason for me to vote at all.

          Never let your morals stop you from doing the right thing.--Isaac Asimov

          The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them.--Julius Nyerere

      • #495801
        MizzGrizz
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 3,929

        @ohiobarbarian.

        Vance is a turncoat,he will do or say whatever it takes to line up with power.So is he sincere about his anti war stance?Who knows,but sadly there is only one way to find out.

        We know Ryan.A backbencher who never did a damn thing for the state and had been in office forever.Now he’s saying he thinks We should prepare for a nuclear war.

        Only a madman says things like that.So as much as I hate to vote at all,I’ll go for Vance so Ryan can be placed in the loony bin where he belongs.

    • #495776
      ColorsoftheRainbow
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 808

      “Yes, we can!”

      (Side note: I leave people to their voting. I, frankly, will not give any of my votes to any person who is affiliated with the Democratic Party. Yes—it is possible to vote instead for at least one person who is affiliated not with the Democratic but with the Republican Party.)

    • #495779
      retired liberal
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 5,107

      Biden had nothing to do with this. Russia invaded because the Ukrainian Nazis were killing Russians living in the Ukraine.
      NATO has long past any real usefulness. It should have been disbanded in the 1950’s. But  there are those in our government that need an adversary, or enemy to function. Like the Red Scare in the 50’s, this is scare propaganda to justify war. Like Korea and Viet Nam. Iraq and Afghanistan. None of those had anything to do with our defense, or freedom.

      If/When the Republicans get control of our government, our country is done. Look at what the Supreme Court has done so far. They have just gotten started.

      This so-called ‘States Rights’ is a diversion to weaken the federal government, to weaken it so it unable to support the services it provides. (See Florida and DeSantis) The Republicans have been open on weakening or even eliminating these agencies. They will lower taxes to make sure there is not enough money for the government to function properly.
      For instance our postal service could be and probably will be privatized. Republicans have been trying to decades to privatize it. Look at what Louis DeJoy has done to it so far.
      The states would be hard pressed to do the following things.

      Here are just a few things that the federal government in the United States does to serve its citizens:

      1. Air Traffic Control, keeping your air travel safe.
      2. Aviation inspectors and pilot examiners, making sure that aircraft and pilots safe to fly.
      3. Federal Courts, Judges, Public Defenders and Prosecutors, making sure that the cause of justice is served fairly.
      4. National Parks, maintaining the beauty of the country’s natural treasures, and keeping them clean for people to enjoy.
      5. Fire fighting in wilderness areas, keeping our cities safe from the spread of fire.
      6. Funding the construction of interstate highways.
      7. Regulating nuclear power generation to keep safe standards in place to protect citizens.
      8. Funding Medicaid to help the most needy afford health care.
      9. Providing Social Security to help everyone who has worked be able to afford basic living expenses after retirement or disability.
      10. Defending the country with the military forces.
      11. Funding the exploration of space.
        https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-services-provided-by-federal-government?share=1Question everything you you read and see on what passes for news in this country. The Ukraine is not what we are being told.
        We can invade other countries willy nilly and topple their governments, but Russia is set up to invade a country and suddenly it’s nuclear war? Give me a break.
        We are in the process of losing control of our country and some here are more worried about a nuclear incident half way around the world?

        The Republicans are a worse threat for this country.

      We are an arrogant species, believing our fantasy based "facts" are better than the other person's fake facts.
      If Row vs. Wade is overturned, women could lose the right to not get pregnant in 26 states.
      The Republicans are four year olds. The Democrats are six year olds. There are no grownups.
      Normalizing insanity has been the conservative's sweet spot at very least since the beginning..

      • #495780
        jbnw
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 9,912

        and how many trips to Ukraine did he make?

        Here’s Biden’s own words about (some) of his role in Ukraine.

        https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4820105/user-clip-biden-tells-story-ukraine-prosecutor-fired

      • #495781
        ColorsoftheRainbow
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 808

        @retiredliberal writes,

        “The Republicans are a worse threat for this country.”

        No.

        The Democrats are…The Party for Censorship.

        The Democrats, in their current form, are the more evil of the two major United States political parties.

        • #495796
          retired liberal
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 5,107

          Your post smacks of Republican talking points. People need to pay better attention to what the Republican leaders at the state and federal level are saying and doing. It is the Conservatives/Republicans that want to ban books and decide what you can see and read. To control the narrative. That is the purpose of Fox News. To either confuse and/or distribute the daily talking points. Not to mention the Right leaning corporate owned news media.

          For one, the Republicans are on the record for sun setting Social Security and Medicare. Two major programs that people depend on. People will lose their homes, even if paid for, because of taxes.  And their medical care. Are you OK with that? I’m not.

          For too many people, the simple answer is to blame the President, as if any and everything that happens as if he were a king. The president is not. Not even Trump could not do everything he wanted to do.
          The high gas prices were world wide. The world wide inflation is caused by the record profit taking of the corporations. Biden has little to no control of either.
          Or decide if something is good or bad because of the (D), or (R), regardless of the issue.  Nothing is as simple as the black/white thinking of the conservative, or the one issue voter for that matter. No thinking required, just pick a side and refuse to budge, even with new information blowing it out of the water.
          Politics is not a sports game that has winners and losers. The two side used to mostly work together and compromise. No more. Our very lives depend on who and how things get done. Fear mongering (nuclear war) is an effective tool to control people. There is a reason why critical thinking is no longer taught in the schools. Today’s world is the result.

          We are an arrogant species, believing our fantasy based "facts" are better than the other person's fake facts.
          If Row vs. Wade is overturned, women could lose the right to not get pregnant in 26 states.
          The Republicans are four year olds. The Democrats are six year olds. There are no grownups.
          Normalizing insanity has been the conservative's sweet spot at very least since the beginning..

          • #495806
            chknltl
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 1,985

            It is a simple as that.

            I live in Washington State, Pierce County.

            Find me a non war monger with a chance of upseating one of our current war mongers and I might listen.

            I will not vote for the people who push-push-push for war.

            To vote for the warmongers condones their further actions against Russia and sends a message to the world that We The People are also for continuing the war against Russia thereby risking nuclear war.

            This is not the message I plan on sending to the world.

            It is as simple as that.

      • #495790
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 25,301

        Image

        No thanks.

        Never let your morals stop you from doing the right thing.--Isaac Asimov

        The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them.--Julius Nyerere

      • #496059
        djean111
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 9,081

        prolong it.  The only defense for that would be that Biden is too senile to know what he is doing.  Getting in bed with Nazis.  Biden and his son have a history of corruption with Ukraine.  IMO.

        America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)

        "Sometimes when I try to understand a person's motives, I play a little game. I assume the worst. What's the worst reason they could possibly have for saying what they say and doing what they do? Then I ask myself, 'How well does that reason explain what they say and what they do?'" Baelish

        VFTBNMW is, IMO, literally "take the blue pill".

    • #495787
      Utopian Leftist
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,209

      some people may not grasp is that a lot of the damage being done by corrupt Democrats is subliminal and intangible: the damage is under the surface; hidden.

      Every time a fake liberal gets elected as a Democrat, they take up space that could have been taken by someone with a backbone. They water down the liberal brand and fool people into thinking they have voted for progress when in fact they have voted for obstruction. The powers that be know that by having one party be the “lessor of two evils,” they will be able to trap millions of people into voting for the EVIL blue, no matter who. And that’s where we are: trapped by the wealthy.

      For me, I hate the Repugnantcunts so much that I will never vote for one of them. Retired Liberal (and Ralph Nader for that matter) are correct that the Repugnantcunts’ open fascism is a threat to Democracy. (So is the Democrats’ demure posing, pretending to be doves when in fact they are as hawkish now as the right.) And being that there are no third-party candidates on my ballot, I voted a straight Democratic ticket this time. But I would not deign to attempt to persuade anyone else that a corrupt Democrat is not equally harmful as a corrupt Repugnantcunt.

      Mainly, I just wanted to say that I think a lot of the harm being done by Democrats is surreptitious or disguised. Evil is evil. Hate is hate. Corruption is corruption. Either way, it’s time for revolution, and the masses have yet to grok the urgency of the situation!

      “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.” ~ Krishnamurti
      "Given the choice between a Republican and a Democrat who acts like a Republican, the voter will choose a Republican every time." ~ Harry Truman

      • #495798
        retired liberal
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 5,107

        BTY, 1/6 WAS an attempted coup. They failed. Did you watch the televised hearings? I did. They left no doubt.

        We are an arrogant species, believing our fantasy based "facts" are better than the other person's fake facts.
        If Row vs. Wade is overturned, women could lose the right to not get pregnant in 26 states.
        The Republicans are four year olds. The Democrats are six year olds. There are no grownups.
        Normalizing insanity has been the conservative's sweet spot at very least since the beginning..

        • #495807
          Ohio Barbarian
          Moderator
          • Total Posts: 25,301

          1/6 was a failed riot instigated by the FBI and used as an excuse to fund the Capitol Police all over this country, and giving them authority to spy on YOU or me with absolutely no oversight. There was more violence across the country after Trump was elected in 2016.

          You need to read things. I recommend the Gray Zone. They have some detailed journalism on this subject. The 1/6 hearings was a show meant to deceive people like you into believing a web of lies. In that sense, they were clearly successful.

          Never let your morals stop you from doing the right thing.--Isaac Asimov

          The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them.--Julius Nyerere

          • #495824
            Utopian Leftist
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 1,209

            trump STILL wanders around the country, openly spreading outright lies about the election. Lies that, were anyone to actually believe them, would constitute an auto-coup. His supporters, at least the ones who believe the lies, are therefore openly fascist. If trump were simply successful in promoting his lies, the election would be wrongly overturned. That is open fascism. The Democrats’ fascism is disguised.

            I’m not arguing the Democrats are any less fascist these days. That is a matter for personal reflection. All I have stated here is that their fascism is disguised, while that of the other side is open and in our faces.

            “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.” ~ Krishnamurti
            "Given the choice between a Republican and a Democrat who acts like a Republican, the voter will choose a Republican every time." ~ Harry Truman

        • #495823
          Utopian Leftist
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 1,209

          I stated that I voted a straight Democrapic ticket this year. In 2016 and 2020 there were third party candidates on the ballot. I would have voted for Hillary, except for the fact that I was posting on this board and discovered here that she stole the primary from Bernie. That is why I voted for Jill Stein instead. Nor did I vote for Biden. But I don’t see how anyone could read what I wrote and interpret it as pro-trump. That’s either insanity or bad reading comprehension.

          “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.” ~ Krishnamurti
          "Given the choice between a Republican and a Democrat who acts like a Republican, the voter will choose a Republican every time." ~ Harry Truman

          • #495825
            djean111
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 9,081

            If you do not denounce Russia, you hate the US.  (That one may begetting a little uncomfortably close to reality).

            Some look at all the world like that.  I am not sure whether it makes them feel better, or is supposed to make you feel bad.  Easier than critical thinking.  That’s how the Dems roll, I have noticed.  If I don’t vote for Charlie Crist – I am anti-abortion!  That’s actually the entire Dem campaign this year.  Spoiler alert.

            America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)

            "Sometimes when I try to understand a person's motives, I play a little game. I assume the worst. What's the worst reason they could possibly have for saying what they say and doing what they do? Then I ask myself, 'How well does that reason explain what they say and what they do?'" Baelish

            VFTBNMW is, IMO, literally "take the blue pill".

            • #495852
              jbnw
              Participant
              • Total Posts: 9,912

              All Ukrainians – including those who used to be Ukrainian.

              But I’m not a Biden puppet, a Zelensky puppet, nor a Putin puppet.

              This is why I made this proposal – it would be nice to see Ukrainians survive – and sadly, I mean that literally. It’s not just metaphorical today.

    • #495834
      ozoneman
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 617

      but there are some libertarian leaning Republicans who have voted against the Ukraine war. No Democrats have, not even Bernie or AOC. And they are getting criticized for that.

      Ron Paul would be the prototype libertarian Republican, and I guess Rand Paul. If Tulsi Gabbard is chosen for VP on a Republican ticket, I would vote for that ticket.

      War is the single most important issue to me by far, but finding antiwar candidates at the national or state level is not easy. Mostly I just vote Progressive or Progressive Democrat.

      There really has to be an antiwar movement, and the left antiwar movement disappeared since Vietnam, when there was a draft. Unfortunately, the draft is no more and the U.S. employs mercenary armies such as ISIS (or whatever Blackwater is called these days) to fight their proxy wars, or NATO, etc.. Out of sight, out of mind, and there is no real journalism anymore, not like during the Vietnam War. Every night we saw women and children being napalmed, very graphic. The U.S. war machine learned from that experience. The narrative is all controlled now. Go back to sleep.

      • #495853
        jbnw
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 9,912

        At least, not that I can recall —

        But Ukraine and Ukrainians are personal for me, and the survival of humanity on the planet is personal for everyone, whether they recognize it or not.

        For that, one small protest vote, and a hope that enough others will show that they see the US political landscape the same way.

    • #495856
      closeupready
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,792

      That means citizens get to vote however they decide to do so.

      I don’t think I could bring myself to vote a straight Republican ticket (or a gay one), but there are individuals who say interesting things, voice ideas that speak for me far better than Democrats do.

      On edit: “far better than Democrats do” – WTF am I saying. Democrats don’t speak for me at ALL. They don’t speak for the typical Americans. They speak for the corporations that brib … err, give them campaign donations and do all that other stuff that make their lives just a little bit cushier, comfier.

      The opinions and personal views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and should never be taken seriously.

    • #495924
      Pam2
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 11,133

      We’ve got a CIA Dem running for Congress here so I will be leaving that one blank. I don’t think there is a third party candidate in that race. Don’t think I could go Repub. unless there was a Tulsi or Rand Paul type running.

      Voting Dem for Gov. On the state level, I can say the Dems are better than the idiots the Repubs dig up to run in this state.

      It is pathetic we have no actual peace party in this country.

       

       

      • #495929
        jbnw
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 9,912

        But plenty of protests on the cost of living in Europe!

        Apparently a number of pubs in England are shutting down for the winter as they can’t afford to keep the place heated or lighted – so maybe no place to go complain there 😉

    • #496073
      Babel 17
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 6,963

      That the Biden administration has an open check book for Neo Nazi White Boys in Ukraine while inner cities that house a disproportionate number of minorities often look like they got hit by drone strikes, while not very well homeless people wander the streets in confusion.

      And let’s see if anyone goes as far to say that the Biden administration is using those Neo Nazis as an army to fight Russia, and if they paraphrase Muhammad Ali, and say that they have no beef with the Russians.

      Don't Kill the Whale
      Don't feed the trolls

    • #496112
      closeupready
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,792

      is the fact that oligarchs own both political parties in the US, and that it doesn’t matter whether you vote for a Republican or a Democrat? That if you vote for either one of them, you are voting for the status quo? That is, that you are voting to endorse that you are happy with the things the Establishment has done for you?

      They will lie and say how different they are, but their votes and the shit that passes and then becomes law tells a different story – that they are actually both fraudulent and crooked parties who are deceiving voting Americans.

      In other words, promoting the idea to vote for either Democrats or Republicans is to promote the disenfranchisement of voting Americans from making genuine choices at the ballot box.

      But, as the new internet meme goes, you do you.

      The opinions and personal views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and should never be taken seriously.

      • #496113
        jbnw
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 9,912

        Basically, voting in the US only allows the choice of the uniparty.

        But under the exceptional circumstances today of the stance of Biden and the Democrats escalating to a significant risk of nuclear war, or a world war, with Russia I see no alternative.

        Could it actually result in our elected officials paying attention? Maybe. Unlikely, but maybe – and for that I don’t see an alternative.

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