A socialist response to Krystal Ball and Cornel West, and why Joe Biden is a greater potential evil than Donald Trump

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    • #352622
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,908

      Cornel West was recently on Hill Rising, interviewed by Krystal Ball in this 13+ minute long video:

      After a discussion about the Movement for a People’s Party, Ball asked West a very good question–What is the best path forward for progressives? Should they continue to try to take over the Democratic Party from within, should they go their own way and abandon it altogether, or should they do an inside/outside strategy, which amounts to both? West said that was the $64,000 question and did not directly answer it, so I will.

      We should go our own way and abandon the Democratic Party altogether. I’m not going to rehash all the arguments myself and many others on JPR have made over the last several months. I think it is sufficient to say that any association with that party lost all credibility when every single progressive Democrat in Congress voted for the CARES Act in March, giving away $5 trillion to the kleptocracy and relative crumbs to everyone else. For me, that showed the true value of staying within the Democratic Party–little to none.

      Throughout the interview, West kept saying over and over again how the important thing now is to form “an anti-Fascist coalition,” consisting of everyone from his admittedly radical self to neocons such as Colin Powell, just to get Trump out because Trump is a true Fascist. He was honest enough to say that the neoliberal Biden/Harris could not be expected to do anything at all for ordinary people, but Trump just has to go now or unspeakable horrors will be realized. I say “unspeakable” because he didn’t say what they are with any specificity.

      I like and admire Cornel West, but I flatly disagree with him here. First, it is impossible to form an anti-Fascist coalition with Fascists, and that’s exactly what Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, Colin Powell, and all of the Republicans and MIC and intelligence agency people who have endorsed Joe Biden are. All believe in advancing a few corporate interests by means of government power, which is what Fascism is, all are imperialists, all are for more money for the kleptocratic oligarchy and crumbs for the rest of us. West’s anti-Fascist coalition is just a means for enlisting progressives to vote for their political enemies, and it’s just a foolish thing to do.

      Second, in some ways I fear a Biden Administration more than I do a continuation of the Orange Buffoon for the following reasons. It means austerity and war; there’s just no getting around that. It means a unified government that could easily decide to cut Social Security and other remnants of the Great Society entitlement programs for the support of the general welfare in the name of fighting a deficit that is never important to the kleptocracy except when arguments for government spending on behalf of We The People are made.

      Joe Biden has a long record of advocating for such cuts and potential eliminations, and he was an enthusiastic backer of Obama’s proposed Grand Bargain with Republicans to cut Social Security. His election could guarantee that that is the one domestic policy accomplishment that he will actually do. That’s not fearmongering on my part. That’s what Biden has been proposing for over 40 years.

      Third, the fact is that under Donald Trump, while there has been a massive escalation in drone strikes as he doubled down on Obama’s own such escalation, he has gotten us into no new imperial wars and reduced our troop commitment in three of them, namely Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan. Since Joe Biden is being supported by the MIC, and since those people don’t support a candidate unless they are convinced he will do their bidding, that means that a vote for Joe Biden is a vote for more war. It is ironic, not to mention disheartening, to hear a lifelong advocate of peace such as Cornel West urging people to vote for more war, yet that’s exactly what he is doing whether he admits it or not.

      Fourth, it really does appear that, no matter what happens, the Democrats will control both the House and Senate in 2021. If Trump is re-elected, he will be able to legislate nothing and appoint no one, Cabinet member or federal judge, without Democratic Party support. The Democrats will have the ability to check him at every turn if they so choose. I don’t think they will on everything, for most of them are capitalist and kleptocratic scumbags, but they will be faced with the choice of bowing down or truly resisting, and will be in the spotlight.

      To be fair, the Democrats have been, since 1969 anyway, a far more effective opposition party than a governing one, so I’ve got at least some historical precedent on my side here. The Democrats are terrible, but sometimes they do some good when they are in opposition. For example, they have defeated the efforts of several Republican presidents to cut Social Security before. They would undoubtedly do the same thing in a second Trump term.

      Fifth, a second Trump term will prevent all of the virtue-signaling, upper middle class suburban woke liberals from going back to sleep. If Biden wins, they’ll just say that any criticism of Biden hurts him and helps the Republicans, so STFU, just like they did under Obama. They’ll support Biden no matter what he does because Republicans Worse. A Trump victory would keep them awake and more focused, and may even open some of their eyes to the fact that our current political and economic system simply does not work for most Americans, and will eventually destroy even themselves if current trends are allowed to continue.

      Sixth, Trump would get a maximum of four more years. The neoliberal Democrats would get a maximum of twelve, if Biden serves just one term and Harris gets two. If I’m wrong and there is no real revolution during that time, 12 is greater than 4. Since both Trump and the neoliberal Democrats are considered evils by progressives, that means that the latter are in fact the greater evil. It’s simple math.

      In conclusion, anyone reading this who thinks Trump is the Ultimate Threat to a nonexistent democracy or some Lovecraftian Elder God returned who will devour all life on the planet and simply must be defeated should be at least thankful for the fact that I will not vote for a Fascist of any color, be it Red or Blue, for if you ask me to choose the lesser evil, I’ll choose Trump. You’re better off simply respecting my position and my right to vote for neither, just as I respect your right to vote for whatever it is that you are voting for.

       

       

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #352628
      Jan Boehmerman
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 4,562
    • #352632
      djean111
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 6,567

      Thanks, OhioBarbarian!

      America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)

      Everything I post is just my opinion, and, honestly, I would love to be wrong.

    • #352636
      jbnw
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 5,797

      falls apart when you can’t tell which is which.

    • #352639
      xyzse
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,790

      I’ll just say I agree.  Can’t really add much more, since when balancing the scales Biden/Harris shows that they are potentially a greater net negative within a margin of error.

      Both Republican and Democratic top ticket options have reached a level of unacceptability for me, that I can’t vote for either.

      This, coming from someone who is pragmatic enough to try to figure out who would be less damaging and vote for them.  Unfortunately, I am unable to figure out who is worse given the situation.  I also see Biden coming ahead in the negatives, especially since like Obama he will not walk back what has happened, but rather institutionalize it which then allows the next administrations after to go even further down this path of destruction.

      It’s still going to get worse.

    • #352640
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,908

      @xyzse

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #352641
      xyzse
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,790

      @ohiobarbarian
      Exactly, and with how Congress with Pelosi as head has been acting, it just goes to show how a Biden administration would govern. Handouts to the Rich, not even CRUMBS to the rest but just promises of crumbs which will continually be broken.

    • #352643
      GZeusH
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,375

      Trump has a naive 1920’s Republican view of the world – no foreign entanglements, no trade, if they’re ferrieners, fuck’em.

      However, this is just a sense and not an anti-war conviction, so he is easily rolled by the neo-cons around him.  He has tepidly tried to withdraw troops, and certainly is much less warlike than his predecessor.   When it comes to war, he is an empty bowl of shit, rather than Biden’s over brimming  bowl.

      It’s pretty sad when the Republicans can be seen as the peace party.

      Corporate America consists of totalitarian entities laser-focused on short-term greed.

      If you just got finessed into calling the medicine that won the 2015 Nobel Prize for its role in treating human disease ‘horse de-wormer’ then you need to sit the next couple of plays out.

    • #352664
      closeupready
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,682

      @GZeusH  What’s important to him is ego.  He is not as pro-war as Biden is.

      On top of that, Harris is a whole ball of negativity that warrants consideration on her own demerits, given Biden’s advanced age and symptoms of dementia.

      A Biden/Harris administration frightens me like no other potential 2020 outcome.

      The opinions and personal views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and should never be taken seriously.

    • #352679
      JonLP
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,496

      “Woke” is AAVE from the Black Lives Matter movement which from what I can tell means politically aware. Rich person living in the suburbs couldn’t give a rats ass about BLM concerns.

      I usually agree with your posts but you buy into right wing language too much like “cancel culture” & “virtue signaling”.

      Let this radicalize you rather than lead you to despair - Mariame Kaba

      Like many public systems, GOP want to rip the battery out + say the whole car doesn’t work, so they can sell it for parts - AOC

    • #352680
      ThouArtThat
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,544

      @ohiobarnarian

      Hi ob,

      Biden/Harris welcome you to the Fascist Oligarchic Kleptocratic States of America (FOKSA).

      When one is ready for reeducation camp, the Vichy Dems will schedule your brainwashing promptly.

      We look forward to your assimilation.

      TAT

      PS – well stated in the OP.

      “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
      - John F. Kennedy

      "The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate those who speak it."
      - George Orwell

      "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
      - Jiddu Krishnamurti

      "Sometimes a pessimist is only an optimist with extra information."
      - Idries Shah

      "A riot is the language of the unheard."
      - Martin Luther King

    • #352681
      jwirr
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,920

      What we need is that third party to fight back against the two corporate candidates now.

      One thing that I seem to hope is that when it really gets bad – and it will – especially in the cities will force the big boys and girls to recognize that they had better start to listening.

      Love Cornel West.

      jwirr

    • #352689
      salemcourt
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,010

      One of the rare cases when I do not agree with either Cornell West or Noam Chomsky.  On war, Trump is definitely better than Biden.  Also on the criminal reform stuff, maybe he is at least as good as Biden.   I will vote for neither.

      https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/514168-trump-grants-pardon-to-alice-johnson

    • #352690
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,908

      @jonlp I disagree with you. There is a LOT of liberal and Vichy Dem virtue-signaling, and cancel culture is a thing. I don’t have to like either one of them, much less agree with them, and I don’t.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #352700
      MizzGrizz
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,558

      Not much to add except that I agree.

      Looks like Social Security will be on the chopping block no matter who gets in.Apparently the system has decided it’s time.

      At first it seemed as if Trump might meet some real opposition with his permanent payroll tax cut,but the silence of the Dems tells me they plan to do something similar..just more slowly.

    • #352710
      mrdmk
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,704

      Using the Obama Administration as a barometer for Biden Administration can give us some clues on both Domestic and Foreign Policies. Also using Biden’s track record as a Senator tells us Domestically, it will be a conservative administration. Cuts to social safety nets will be the first, no new tax breaks though, some better environmental regulation, women’s concerns will be a mixed bag and the attacks on LBGTQ will be cut back dramatically.It will be no change from the Obama Administration.

      On Foreign Policies, it does depend on who is Secretary of State. There was a big difference between SOS Hillary Clinton and SOS John Kerry. I would welcome a SOS Kerry to make up and walk back for what is happening at this moment. SOS Kerry had some good treaties signed during his time, although the TTP was not one of them. SOS Clinton was a mess and just out for herself as far as I am concerned. Why did she need her own E-mail server if not to protect her sorry ass?

      Lets say Trump wins, the House remains in control of the Democrats and control of the Senate switches to the Democrats. Trump will not be able to shut his big fucking mouth. He will feel cornered and call the militias to his defense to start a Civil War. Why, just because he can. Trump’s biggest accomplishments have so far been a tax break for the rich and a tax increase for the 99% which will come to roost Trump’s fifth year. Let him explain that to the people who just got woken up with a big tax bill and reduced income. This is why Trump is attempting to kill Social Security now before the increase in income tax really hits.

      As far as Foreign Policy goes, Trump has been attempting to pick a fight with Iran, Venezuela, China and light the whole Middle East on fire. Anybody who thinks Trump is a peace maker is delusional, he’s not. Trump is a laughing stock when attempting to make deals with other countries. Like many people here in the U.S.A., people know Trump is liar and wants to make other people his bitch. I my opinion, other countries would love to see Trump out of office.

      Neither Biden or Trump is what this country really needs right now.

      If you cannot dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit WC Fields

      Warning DO NOT CLICK HERE!
    • #352722
      Haikugal
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 2,328

      Yes OB, everything is going to get worse and it will happen faster than expected most likely. The next few months should be interesting…. I’m busy making medicine from my plants that support nerves and the mind…bones and musculature. Can’t hurt and it’s better than sitting idly while the world burns.

    • #352736
      Two way street
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,195

      and the with the House and Senate in Democratic hands, We the People will have greater access to control lawmakers that they will be defeated beginning 2022 if they mess with the Social Security Insurance Trust Fund.

      Part C is paid by direct deposit from Soc. Sec. benefits to bigly insurance and medicine corporations.

      What will happen to the aged and disabled in nursing homes?

      How will those aged 40 pay for their parents living expenses and medical needs.

      Let it be known that if lawmakers want to tear this country apart they are not going to be returning to Congress.

      I think there is a revolution in there before a 2022 Primary.  And that my opinion.

      2020-2024 Campaign Season: We the People are in the fight for our lives and livelihoods.

    • #352832
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,908

      @mrdmk Since Bolton’s been gone, he’s been tame in comparison. Besides, he picked the wrong targets. The Pentagon vetoed attacks on Iran and Venezuela because both countries are capable of defending themselves. Venezuela has top-of-the-line Russian air defenses. Iran has top-of-the-line Chinese anti-ship missiles, and their air defense is nothing to sneeze at.

      It is doubtful that Biden will go to war with either of those countries for the same reasons. He’ll find someone else to pick on. I don’t know who–perhaps an intervention in Bolivia to get at all those rare earth minerals they have.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #352898
      mmonk
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 904

      No good purpose is fulfilled in voting for either of them.

      Fear not the path of Truth for the lack of People walking on it. - RFK

    • #352928
      peacecorps
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,225

      drone attacks are up, taxes for corporations and the rich are down, corporate regulations (environmental, labor, health and safety) are down, income inequality is higher than ever.

      The people in Yemen, Iran, Venezuela, etc. are probably not convinced that Trump is a great peace maker. The Saudi bombing of Yemen is great for military sales. When congress actually tried to halt the bombing, Trump declared it a national emergency that we had to continue it.

      As for the scenario in which Trump is re-elected, law-and-order baby, overcoming his current deficit in the polls, yet Dems hold on to the House and win control of the Senate, this seems a little far-fetched. Trump can certainly overcome his deficit in the polls. He has proven that. But Dems can certain implode in the House and Senate. They have proven that. Indeed that is more likely if Trump rallies and wins re-election. A Trump victory is more likely to include a GOP majority in the Senate and House, than in Dem control of both.

      Another 4 years of fossil-fuel endorsing, anti-environmentalism is going to make the fight against global climate change that much more difficult, if not impossible, in the long run. With or without GOP control of congress in a second Trump term, the environment will suffer more under Trump.

      But if anyone is looking for a candidate who will not listen to people (intelligence community, scientists, medical professionals, etc.) unless they tell him what he wants to hear, Donald is the man. He already ignores scientists and medical professionals. I suspect he will continue to replace people in the intelligence community until they tell him what he wants to hear as well.

      Granted this is a discussion of the ‘lesser/greater evil’, as you said.

      The Big Lie: "Make the lie big, Make it simple, Keep saying it, And eventually they will believe it." AH.

      "Arguments must therefore be crude, clear and forcible, and appeal to emotions and instincts, not the intellect." JG

      National issues (slavery/racism, income inequality, pandemics and pathetic health care, weak unions) are not solved with more states' rights. Global problems (climate change, migration, trade, war, pandemics) are not solved with more nationalism.

    • #352930
      incognito
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,574

      I agree with everything you said. There’s no lesser of two evils in those two parties. They’re both evil. In fact, the Vichy Dems are WORSE because they pretend to be better and they just aren’t.

      There’s the GOP shoveling trillions of dollars to the MIC, which couldn’t have been done without the votes from the Vichy Dems. Just look at the COVID-19 relief – pretty much non existent for the peasants and BILLIONS for the Oligarchs… and that was voted for by the Vichy Dems. And, we see no more help coming with millions of unemployed and newly HOMELESS. WTF is a government for? Why do we pay ridiculous taxes? To help the MIC and Oligarchs only? I don’t think so.

      And if anyone actually believes Biden and Harris are going to be any better than Trump, they haven’t been paying attention.

      We will NEVER have M4A under a Biden admin. He will defend Obama’s shitty assed Obamacare with everything he has. That man didn’t just vote for the crime bill, HE WROTE It and now he has an authoritarian VP who will gladly defend it and help extend it. Biden also wrote the bankruptcy bill, so it’s more than obvious where his loyalties lie and it’s not with the peasants.

      And if anyone believes he didn’t support Obama’s authoritarian moves during OWS and Standing Rock, they need to think again. It was probably his idea to brutalized those protestors.

      And let us not forget that Biden didn’t just vote for the illegal Iraq War that has killed millions of innocent people, he stood on the Senate floor in full and complete support of it. The man is a fucking warmonger.

      And remember, Dementia Joe was VP when Obama murdered more people by Drones, than all other presidents combined.

      And, being Anti SOCIAL SECURITY is his real badge of honor. He stood on the Senate floor, 4 TIMES, advocating Social Security cuts. He’s no better than Trump and an argument could be made that he’s much, much worse than Trump on Social Security and Warmongering.

      Then we have the sham of an election system that Dementia Joe took full advantage of to steal the nomination from Bernie. So, it goes without saying, hackable Evoting Machines are going nowhere under a Dementia Joe admin.

      NOTHING in this country will change under a Biden /Harris admin. and it’s an easy argument to make… it will be WORSE.

      I’m voting for no one in any election until evoting machines are abolished. And that means I will never vote again because BOTH corrupt parties use them to steal votes… it’s only a matter of which party calculates correctly and steals enough to win.

      👍 @ohiobarbarian

      Great post!

       

    • #352931
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,908

      @peacecorps I do not think Donald Trump is a “peacemaker.” Note that I never said that. Oh, he did try to make some sort of a peace with North Korea, and actually is negotiating with the Taliban to get out of Afghanistan, a prospect that Democrats voted against. I will never forget or forgive that, either. Nonetheless, the fact remains that there has been no peace deal concluded with either North Korea or Afghanistan, though there is a chance an accord will be reached to withdraw from Afghanistan. If Trump does that, we must give him credit for it.

      And I agree with you that his policies towards Iran,  Yemen, and Venezuela have been horrible, but the latter two are just continuations of Obama’s policies towards those countries. There is no reason to think that Joe Biden would be an improvement.

      As for the MIC, when over 70 or their representatives and cheerleaders take out a full page ad in the Wall Street Journal endorsing Joe Biden, that means they endorse Joe Biden. When neocon Republican warmongers such as Colin Powell endorse Biden at the Democratic Convention, that means the MIC is endorsing Joe Biden. Donald Trump ripped the mask off of American imperialism, and they want somebody who will put it back on.

      As for Congress, the Senate is somewhat up in the air, but it wouldn’t be unusual for one party to win control of both houses while another retains the Presidency. It’s happened before. Lots of times. And I see no way the Democrats will lose the House this year, none. Lots of voters do like divided government, you know, because they figure that will do less damage. They have a point, too.

      On the environment, I think Biden would be better than Trump, but don’t believe he will make any of the major changes that need to be made because his donors will oppose them.

      On the economy, I think either one of them will fail miserably, and that the flying feces will hit the rotating blades no matter who wins. I do admit that issue is important to me because it directly impacts myself, my family, and my community the most.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #352932
      B Calm
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,121

      for president or leave that line blank. Joe Biden stole my democracy in the primary and I’ll be damn if I will reward him with a vote in the general!  Not sure if this election is not already rigged, but  I will vote Democratic on the down ticket to keep Trump in check.

    • #352934
      ravensong
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,222

      accomplished, and clearly possessed of a great deal of common sense. He would make a great POTUS.

      Cornel Ronald West (born June 2, 1953) is an American philosopher, political activist, social critic, author, and public intellectual.[9][10] The grandson of a Baptist minister, West focuses on the role of race, gender, and class in American society and the means by which people act and react to their “radical conditionedness.” A radical democrat and socialist,[11][12] West draws intellectual contributions from multiple traditions, including Christianity, the black church, Marxism, neopragmatism, and transcendentalism.[13][14][15][16] Among his most influential books are Race Matters (1994) and Democracy Matters (2004).

      West is an outspoken voice in left-wing politics in the United States, and as such has been critical of members of the Democratic Party, including former President Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton.[17][18][19] He has held professorships and fellowships at Harvard University, Dartmouth College, Princeton University, Yale University, Pepperdine University, Union Theological Seminary, and the University of Paris during his career.[20] He is also a frequent commentator on politics and social issues in many media outlets.[21]
      …………
      West has called the US a “racist patriarchal” nation where white supremacy continues to define everyday life. “White America”, he writes, “has been historically weak-willed in ensuring racial justice and has continued to resist fully accepting the humanity of blacks.” This has resulted, he says, in the creation of many “degraded and oppressed people hungry for identity, meaning, and self-worth.” West attributes most of the black community’s problems to “existential angst derive[d] from the lived experience of ontological wounds and emotional scars inflicted by white supremacist beliefs and images permeating U.S. society and culture.”[72]

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornel_West

      His argument is far superior to yours, OB, probably because he has a much deeper understanding of what it is like to not be a member of the dominant straight white male culture in the US. He knows what it feels like to be oppressed, and you clearly don’t have a clue.

      You are really not going to like this, OB, but your argument is classic “spoken like a true straight white male”, who has so much less to lose than the rest of us if gangsta (as Doc West says) Trump, a fascist, homophobic, misogynistic, planet killing white supremacist, gets 4 more years to continue to lay waste to the Constitution, the planet, and human kindness and human decency.

      If I were as intelligent, wise, experienced, anti-fascist, and eloquent as Dr. West, I would have said basically the same things he said.

      But I’m not, so I’ll say it in my own simple, pitiful little way:

      Biden and Democrats totally suck, but we need to get rid of this sociopath Hitler wannabe Trump ASAP.  Cut off the head of the thoroughly corrupt deadly neo-nazi fascist/christo-fascist snake first, and sort the rest out later.

      “A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by a majority.” ~ Booker T. Washington

      The truth is, there’s no such thing as being “anti-Fascist.” Either you are a decent human being with a conscience, or you are a fascist.
      ~ Unknown

    • #352942
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,908

      @ravensong No one who is Black and working class ever accuses me of being “privileged” or of not having a clue as to how they think and feel. The only people who do that are generally white, upper middle class people who live in outer ring suburbs, exurbs, and rural areas who can afford to take trips overseas or to be expats. How many Black Americans have you ever known? I’ve served with them and showered with them in the Navy, not to mention depended on them to preserve my life every bit as much as they depended on me to do the same for them.

      I live amongst them, work in a majority Black workplace, and have one white stepkid who lives with a working class Black woman now and two more who have seriously dated Black people.

      I know Black people and Black American culture far, far better than you, who choose to live in rural, white conservative areas and then complain about your neighbors. My stepsons have been harassed and “oppressed” by police just because they have Black friends. Cornel West himself would never call me privileged or say that I don’t have a clue about how Black people think or feel. Some have told me that I am one of “their white people.” I’m pretty sure that has never been said about you.

      Cast all the aspersions upon me that you wish; they change nothing and I know they are false. What my friends, neighbors and coworkers think about me matters to me; what people like you think about me does not.

      At least you didn’t accuse me of being a Trump supporter this time, so I suppose that’s progress.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #352945
      Mr. Mickeys Mom
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 6,403

      This one should be on the Greatest Page.


      @ohiobarbarian
      It’s easy to throw rocks and piss on each other here from time to time, but the core message here is that we all ought to attend the MPP’s convention online.

      For those with smart phone technology, there is an MPP app than can be downloaded ALLOWING YOU TO VOTE on the issues that are SO VITAL to all of us.

      I can’t believe I still don’t know how to vote. It’s because I value the Green Party, just like I did last time, but they don’t have Jill Stein this time, and Howy frankly is not the best candidate to present this platform… the platform that Bernie Sanders woke people up to.

      Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

    • #352968
      ravensong
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,222

      Just relatively clueless about what it really feels like to not be a straight white male in the US.

      Despite how many black friends you have.

      Not saying you are consciously misogynistic, or homophobic, either. You just can’t really understand what it feels like to be oppressed as a POC, a woman, or an LGBT person in the US.

      Consider the possibility that Native Americans, Mexican Americans, and Mexican nationals, etc, are also minorities, are generally not white, are oppressed and victims of discrimination, and commonly live throughout the rural Western US.  Consider the possibility that women, and LGBT, are also oppressed minorities.

      You seem to assume that it is only privileged rich white people who are able to travel back and forth between nations.

      Shockingly, (sarcasm), non-affluent POC actually do this as well!  Sometimes, even some clever (sarcasm) working class Latinx cross the border and visit family in Mexico, and, believe it or not, some can even afford to fly to Central and South America to visit family.  Sometimes, adventurous Native Americans with less than $100 in their purses even travel to other countries to swim in warm oceans in winter.

      “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy” Shakespeare

      That said, one thing you got right is that it is true that I have had relatively little contact with Black Americans in my lifetime, simply because they rarely lived in or near the places where I have lived.  I have no idea at all what it really feels like to be a Black American in the US.

      There is a reason why the vastly overwhelming majority of POC, LGBT, Jewish folks, and women, are desperately going to cast their votes against Trump in the 2020 election.  What do you think the reason for this is?

      Hint: It’s not because we think Trump will be better for us than Biden, based on what Trump has done for the past 3 3/4 years. Even though many of us think Biden is a terrible candidate.

      There is also reason that the only majority of voters that will not vote against Trump in the 2020 election is straight white men.

      What do you think the reason for this is?

      “A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by a majority.” ~ Booker T. Washington

      The truth is, there’s no such thing as being “anti-Fascist.” Either you are a decent human being with a conscience, or you are a fascist.
      ~ Unknown

    • #352981
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,908

      @ravensong Because as Ice Cube recently said, “OK, Trump’s out of office. Then what?” They won’t vote for Biden because they know he will do nothing for them. The same goes for Latinos in the Southwest, who voted for Bernie and now simply won’t vote at all. Your statement that the vast majority of the people of color you listed, specifically Blacks and Latinos, will vote against Trump by voting for Biden is simply false. A plurality of them will, but maybe half of them won’t vote at all, for perfectly good, rational reasons.

      Why do I think so many of those people you listed are voting for Biden? That’s easy. They’re afraid of Trump and his supporters, but Biden will do nothing to help any of them unless they are already privileged themselves, which many of those voting for him already are. Cornel West can easily survive a Biden Administration. He’s financially set. So is Michael Moore. So are all of the upper middle class white liberals who insult those who refuse to do so as being morally inferior or privileged or whatever.

      I, OTOH, have financial incentive to vote for Trump. Specifically, Biden is more likely to succeed in cutting or delaying my Social Security benefits, which I will need to survive, while Trump will never be able to do that. Furthermore, the $1200 crumb Trump threw me this year is more than I got from Bush and Obama combined. Nonetheless, I still won’t vote for Trump because I don’t vote for Fascists, not even those who throw me crumbs.

      As to your last point, about the only majority of voters voting for Trump being straight white men, there are several reasons for that. There are some who voted for him because they knew Hillary would screw them, and voted for Trump because he was opposed to the TPP while Hillary was for it, no matter how she publicly flip-flopped on the issue. Others, as well as many straight white women, voted for him because of abortion or guns or homophobia or simply because they wanted to think of themselves as superior to somebody, and perceived that their social status in relation to the Others, yourself included there, was declining.

      As LBJ once said, tell some poor white trash man that he is better than the n-word down the road and you don’t even have to rob him of his last dollar; he’ll give it to you. That sort of thing is real, but I think it can only be effectively combated by economic justice for all, including the poor racist white trash themselves. I’m a socialist and a Marxian, so that should be no surprise.

      Finally, I think it’s just plain foolish to vote for those who have not earned one’s vote, who offer one nothing except for not being someone else. Do you really think Joe Biden is going to give minorities and gay people anything they don’t already have? As he would say, “Come on, man!” He’s racist himself. He is directly responsible for incarcerating tens of thousands of minority people for nonviolent crimes and using them for slave labor. He was opposed to gay marriage until it became cool. His bankruptcy reform has hurt millions, myself included. He will push for more wars. In short, he’s a Fascist and an imperialist.

      When you vote for him, he’s already gotten everything he wanted from you, and you have no leverage whatsoever over him to get him to change any of his policies.

      Lastly, if you think Joe Biden or Kamala Harris wouldn’t sell you and every other gay person down the river if it became politically expedient for them, I have a tropical forest in Wyoming to sell you.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #353076
      Fugitive Birdie
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 319

      I will only say that for people who disagree, for those who want to start a third party, or those who want to vote for Biden, we can still work together.

    • #353159
      djean111
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 6,567

      Oh, and “repukes” is soooo SV, it made me actually LOL.  If someone does not vote for the blue no matter who, they are a “repuke”.  Freeper type crap.  Same level.  Low, really.

      Your “truth” is fine, for you.  But you do not get to define “truth” for anyone else.  No one does, no matter how histrionically they emote.  (Norma Desmond would be jealous.)   Also, that corrupt Democratic Party WAS 4 sale, it sold itself, like a hooker, to Wall Street, and working within it is impossible now.   The DNC, in case you have not noticed, is pretty fucking clear about that.


      @not4sale

      America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)

      Everything I post is just my opinion, and, honestly, I would love to be wrong.

    • #353165
      Mr. Mickeys Mom
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 6,403

      Am I supposed to be the “cat lady”? I am Mr. Mickey’s Mom, paying homage to that boy of mine from times past. I’ll always be the cat lady in ya’ll neighborhood. No hissing about that!

      So, if it’s me… THANK YOU!

      Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

    • #353202
      So Far From Heaven
      Keymaster
      • Total Posts: 9,442

      @ravensong

      To be truly anti-racist, one must work at eliminating racism in it’s entirely.

      If you vote for Biden, you acknowledge his past and current as well as future racist behavior. I wrote a topic on just this kind of thing:

      https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/there-is-a-distinction-between-non-racist-and-anti-racist/

      I’m getting smarter concerning racism, and I suggest everyone do the same. That article in my post could just as easily be changed to ANY of the things you bring up here. Just because you and others may claim that either Biden is non-racist or ‘not as racist as someone else’ just promotes more racism.

      Unless you would like to somehow explain all the blatantly racist shit that Biden promoted and passed during his tenure as a politician. And that would be racist as well, now wouldn’t it? “Forgiving” someone of their racism isn’t being anti-racist because it doesn’t fix the racist activity. Don’t vote for anyone that is or has been racist. It’s that simple and it has to be done sometime. The alternative is continued racism.

    • #353210
      Jim Lane
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 889

      @mizzgrizz

      With reference to Trump’s latest attack on Social Security, you refer to “the silence of the Dems” without benefit of any link, as if it were a well-known fact.

      I ran this search:

      Trump “payroll tax” Democrats

      I use duckduckgo.com but I’m sure Google or other search engines would give similar results.

      Without even getting to the bottom of the first page of the search results, I found, among others:

      https://www.cfo.com/tax/2020/03/democrats-balk-at-trump-payroll-tax-proposal/ (quoting Sen. Ron Wyden, the senior Democrat on the Senate Finance Committee; Sen. Sherrod Brown, the senior Democrat on the Banking Committee; Jason Furman, “a top economist in the Obama administration”; and House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer)

      https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/10/payroll-tax-deferral-social-security-medicare-democrats-393303 (quoting DNC Chair Tom Perez and a joint statement from House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer)

      https://oklahoman.com/article/5668942/democrats-say-trumps-payroll-tax-break-weakens-social-security (“The Democratic National Committee was out with a video accusing Trump of breaking his promise to older Americans”)

      All these sources feature prominent Democrats blasting Trump’s move.

      If you get all your news from The Jimmy Dore Show and the like, you may not get facts like this, because they’re inconvenient for the Democrats Are Evil narrative. Before you make a sweeping statement about “the silence of the Dems”, however, you might consider investing a modicum of effort into determining whether the statement is true.

      That being said, the floor is now open for the typical JPR moving of the goalposts, in which the falsity of the initial smear is not admitted, but the refutation is instead met with different criticisms.

    • #353211
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,908

      @jimlane For example, I remember George W. Bush saying, I think it was at the State of the Union, that he had tried to do what was necessary to cut the deficit by “reforming” Social Security but the Democrats had stopped him.

      The problem is that I just don’t trust Joe Biden not to cut it, because he has consistently advocated doing just that for decades. I also don’t trust the Democratic leadership, and most of the caucus, to defy him if he proposes such a thing. I am certain that he will at some point. Obama did, and the only reason he was unsuccessful was because the Republicans wouldn’t approve anything he proposed just because he was the one proposing it.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

      • #353214
        Jim Lane
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 889

        @ohiobarbarian

        But, sorry, I’ve done enough research for one night.  There’s no more than a handful of people reading this thread — if even that many — whose minds might be changed.  It’s just not worth my time.  You’ve provided the “different criticisms” that I foresaw in my concluding paragraph.  (OK, I’ll admit, I don’t get many Nostradamus points for that one.  It was pretty much a sure thing.)  So, with that, I’m done.

        For the rest, we’ll have to agree to disagree.

    • #353225
      Piperay
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 292

      neither will get my vote. 😡 I won’t even waste time trying to figure out who is less evil. 😣

    • #353231
      djean111
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 6,567

      Hey, perhaps Pelosi can set something on fire or shred it!  But actually doing or stopping something – I would not bet on that.  Just more of Pelosi’s statements – that’s all that will happen.  “Balk”, “accuse”, “joint statement”, whatever.  The Silence of the Dems – nah, they will be vocal, but that does not mean anything.  Who believes them any more, except naive fools.  This is just campaign pandering.  As usual.

      Public face, private face.   That is the Democratic Party.

      Once Hillary confirmed that, what Democrats say does not mean squat.   And, remember, Bill was going to privatize it anyway, and Hillary was planning to extract another 3% from workers and hand that to Blackstone to play with.  Easily Googled.   Biden keeps putting Social Security on the table.  Obama gave workers that “tax holiday” – doesn’t that sound exciting! – and that weakened Social Security, too.  Democrat style – little bites.   So saying the Democrats would oppose cutting it is a bit misleading, IMO.  They will squeal about it, but would rather Trump did it, so they can campaign and/or fund-raise off of it.  Hmmmm – maybe the only thing that keeps the Dems from cutting it is that Wall Street really really wants to get their tentacles into it; there’s that.  Wall Street does own the Democratic Party now.


      @jimlane

      America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)

      Everything I post is just my opinion, and, honestly, I would love to be wrong.

    • #353235
      peacecorps
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,225

      IF Trump negotiates an agreement with the Taliban that gets us out of Afghanistan, THEN I will indeed give him credit. IMHO, he has shown no sign of being a ‘great negotiator’ on the international stage – or in DC for that matter. But, if he sees an agreement with the Taliban, as an opportunity to get on TV with ‘great ratings’ then there is some hope of that happening – perhaps even as an ‘October surprise’.

      Biden would a ‘lesser evil’ “improvement” in our dealing with Iran and Yemen, but not Venezuela I agree. Iran is obvious. I doubt that Biden would overrule a congressional vote to end support for the Saudi bombing of Yemen as Trump has done.

      Surely an ad in the WSJ endorsing Biden does not outweigh 4 years of pro-MIC policies from Trump. He has done nothing to tame the MIC and much to empower and enrich it further. The ad proves that Biden is no Bernie but we already knew that. It does not prove that Biden can equal or outdo Trump in enriching the MIC.

      IF Trump narrows the polling gap to a percentage point or two by November coupled with continued voter suppression and chaos with mail-in ballots, momentum will be on the side of him and the GOP. If you believe that the Dems cannot blow the House, that is an interesting opinion. Even if true, if the GOP can hold on to the Senate, Trump will get all his appointees through from judges (from the Supreme Court on down) to agency heads (unless he just continues to appoint ‘acting’ heads and not submit them for confirmation anyway). Not a calming prospect, IMHO.

      I agree that Biden will not make the ‘major changes that need to be made’. Again, the ‘lesser evil’ argument is that he will not continue the pro-fossil fuel, anti-environment agenda that we all know Trump is committed to. Does making ‘minor changes’ better than continuing to cause major damage to the global environment? It is possible that Biden can be pushed by progressives on at least a partial Green New Deal. (At least Bernie seems to think so.) That is impossible with a second-term Trump.

      On the economy, I think either one of them will fail miserably, and that the flying feces will hit the rotating blades no matter who wins. I do admit that issue is important to me because it directly impacts myself, my family, and my community the most.

      Agreed. The economy will tank – not that it has boomed for most of us anyway. We know that the GOP will rediscover their ‘wisdom’ as fiscal hawks – they apparently already have – when it comes to government assistance to regular folks, particularly if there is a Dem in the White House. Trump has shown no signs of caring about anyone other than the 1% (and himself, of course) – other than his rhetoric which can be quite ‘populist’.

      The Big Lie: "Make the lie big, Make it simple, Keep saying it, And eventually they will believe it." AH.

      "Arguments must therefore be crude, clear and forcible, and appeal to emotions and instincts, not the intellect." JG

      National issues (slavery/racism, income inequality, pandemics and pathetic health care, weak unions) are not solved with more states' rights. Global problems (climate change, migration, trade, war, pandemics) are not solved with more nationalism.

    • #353244
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,908

      @peacecorps There’s nothing in his record to support that assertion by Bernie, and just because Sanders says it does not make it so. As for fossil fuels, Biden’s team pulled language calling for an end to federal fossil fuel subsidies out of the already meaningless platform. Biden will probably rejoin the Paris Climate Accord, but that was weak sauce to begin with and is not at all binding. That means such a move will be yet more empty symbolism. I would love to be wrong.

      Again, I haven’t called Trump a peacemaker. The only effort of his that has born fruit is that the Taliban have stuck to their agreement not to target American and NATO troops. The fact remains that Trump hasn’t started any new imperial wars, in spite of his bluster towards Iran and Venezuela. I think the only reason that happened was due to the fact that the military simply refused to cooperate with either him, Bolton or Pompeio  for sound military reasons.

      IOW, I don’t credit the President, except that he did back down; I credit the Pentagon, which is a sad statement if there’s ever been one. I think Biden will pick on a country that can’t really defend itself, or maybe he’ll really screw up and try to conquer a place like Yemen, which would end as well as Poppy Bush and Clinton intervening in Somalia.

      We are in agreement on the economy: It’s going to get worse, a LOT worse, no matter who wins in November. Social unrest will get worse. We’re in interesting times now, they’re about to become positively fascinating.

      All I can do is hope that families like yours and mine will somehow find a way through the tough times to come.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #353253
      Jim Lane
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 889
    • #353261
      Mr. Mickeys Mom
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 6,403

      @jimlane

      Is @dean111 now in charge of moving the “goal posts”? I’m sure you have reason for saying that, but I wonder what it is?

      Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

    • #353264
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,908

      @jimlane You know, like “Republicans lie” or “Cops and prosecutors lie.” Because they do much of the time. There is no moving of goal posts needed to make that observation.


      @djean111
      Please correct me if that’s not what you meant.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #353267
      djean111
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 6,567

      then yeah,  the goalposts need to be moved. Unless this is just empty political posturing or whatever,  and not intended to somehow convince progressives  to vote for the blue no matter what, no matter who.

      The Democrats making noise are now nothing more than this to me –

      ……. a walking shadow, a poor player,
      That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
      And then is heard no more. It is a tale
      Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
      Signifying nothing.
      The Democratic Convention in a nutshell.
      Public face, private face – all in service to campaign pandering and in service to Wall Street behind closed doors.  Obfuscate and marginalize and attempt to talk down away, but it is like watching a lawyer trying to get his guilty client exonerated on a tiny point of procedure – the only people well-served are the guilty client and the lawyer.  Not the guilty client’s current, previous, or next victims.
      So – Green for me, don’t care about the percentages and whatever, especially since I sincerely doubt the vote totals are reality-based in the first place.  Just not choosing one bowl of excrement over another.  I know that I will be served a bowl of excrement, either way.  Cheers!!!!!!!

       

      America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)

      Everything I post is just my opinion, and, honestly, I would love to be wrong.

    • #353269
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,908

      That’s breaking out the battleship guns, @djean111 , but effective.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #353277
      MizzGrizz
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,558

      is what Fancy P.Lousy and her ilk specialize in.

      There probably are a few Dems left who don’t want to cut Social Security,you mentioned three.Add Bernie to the mix and you get four.AOC would likely make five.Possibly even Elizabitch  Whoring would make six.But what chance has that minority got over what Fancy in the House And Schemer and Bitch in the Senate want to do?

      The difference in the two parties is that Trump wants to starve the beast with his payroll tax cut,which would kill the system entirely by 2023,and Biden advocates cuts and means testing which would turn it into a welfare program,leaving it easier to cut by politicians playing on the resentment of everyone with unaddressed sibling issues who are angry as hell that Johnny is getting something they aren’t.

      Same goal,it just takes longer to achieve under Biden or his VP so maybe we won’t notice and be in the streets.

    • #353284
      Haikugal
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 2,328

      @jimlane

      You need to check your attitude here guy. You are consistently insulting and dismissive and it’s going to get you nowhere at JPR. Go use that tone where it belongs, at SV. Thanks for listening….

    • #353358
      Jim Lane
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 889

      @haikugal

      Let’s note the context of this particular sub-thread. It was started by a comment derogatory of the Democratic Party (Democrats were silent about Trump’s latest attack on Social Security). This comment did not turn on a difference of opinion, but rather was a statement of fact. I’m using “statement of fact” the way lawyers do; it doesn’t mean truth, but rather that the statement makes an assertion about a matter of fact (as opposed to opinion), and can therefore be either true or false.

      This particular statement was false. Furthermore, it was unsupported by any link or other evidence. I did some research and provided overwhelming evidence that the statement was false.

      Was I “insulting and dismissive”? To my mind, a response like “You’re full of shit” would have merited that description. I didn’t do that. To address the substance of a comment and provide a rational basis for a different opinion is the exact opposite of dismissive.

      I also pointed out that the necessary research was, literally, the work of a minute. That fact would have justified a pretty strong level of insult. My comment was on the snarky side but well short of the “You can bugger right off with that shit” level of insulting.

      By my lights, a post that exposes error is a useful contribution to a discussion.  I guess you see it differently.

      Incidentally, my quoted examples aren’t hypothetical. They’ve both been said on JPR. About me. Without any objection from you about the lowering of the tone.

    • #353364
      MizzGrizz
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,558

      I try to follow politics so closely as I can,but the fact that some Democrats are questioning Trump’s plans for Social Security had somehow escaped me.That’s good that they are,but they don’t appear to be taking issue with Biden over his plans.

      I’m glad you called it to my attention,but I still question whether there are enough in the Senate and the House committed to Social Security to create a veto-proof majority.Senate and House leadership seems to feel differently than do the senators and congresspeople we have been discussing.

      There are several good congresspeople still,but they are in the minority among Democrats these days.Clintonism—basically a baby boom version of Reaganism—still holds that party in a vise.

    • #353365
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,908

      @jimlane We may disagree with you on what constitutes a personal attack. We may well disagree with ourselves–the vast majority of decisions to remove posts are reached only by consensus, the exceptions being the really egregious ones that we rarely see–but we will review any post or reply that has been reported.

      I don’t think “you can bugger right off with that shit” is a personal attack. “You’re full of shit” probably is, though the sailor in me thinks that can be a joke. I’m not speaking for the other mods, who probably would disagree with me. “You are an asshole” definitely is. There’s even an option for reporting a person as a stupid, hateful asshole.

      But please don’t resort to the equivalent of “Other people have been mean to me and now you’re showing a double standard by singling me out,” which you just did right here, if you never let us know you feel you have been the subject of something that constitutes a violation of the JPR Terms of Service when it does happen to you. And you do that by reporting it. We all get an email.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #353366
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,908

      @jimlane If you feel I or any other moderator crossed the line, flag it anyway. We can’t vote on what we did ourselves. I’m sure you’ll agree that makes sense.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #353375
      Jim Lane
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 889

      @ohiobarbarian

      I was indeed, as you perceived, pointing out a double standard.  You say that’s wrong unless I flagged the other post.  I resolve the double standard the other way: I didn’t flag those posts and I didn’t flag the post that @haikugal made about me.  My general attitude is to favor discussion that is “uninhibited, robust, and wide-open,” as Justice Brennan wrote.

      Robust discussion means that people can tell me I’m full of shit.  It also means that I can tell them they’re applying a double standard.

    • #353388
      Haikugal
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 2,328
    • #353393
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,908

      @haikugal I saw the Missouri and the New Jersey fire broadsides in the Pacific once. Awesome is an appropriate description. I was on a destroyer, and the rounds passed right over us. It really did sound like tearing cloth, but really, really loud.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #353395
      closeupready
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,682

      On the DNC’s side, you’ve got, let’s see, Michael Moore, Katy Perry, that Grace actress from Will & Grace, Noam Chomsky, Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Joy Behar, Whoopi Goldberg …  Oh, and how many dozens of Republican former DC insiders?  See what they all have in common?  DNC leader Nancy Pelosi gushing about her $34/pt. chocolate ice cream … just sick.

      People criticized Nancy Reagan for buying some fancy porcelain dinnerware.  These days, that kind of complaint would seem petty.  Which tells us how much times have changed.

      The opinions and personal views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and should never be taken seriously.

    • #353402
      Haikugal
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 2,328

      I can’t edit my above reply so I post this….


      @jimlane

      I see no double standard but I do see a bunch of democrats making as little noise and taking as little action as possible to maintain their ‘cover’ of being ‘the left’…they are anything but the left and have spent decades denying the left until they finally just came out and said it. They don’t need us, they don’t want us, and we can just go to hell. FINE…I didn’t vote for them last time and I’ll be damned if they get a vote from me again. I’m old, I’ve been fighting for change all my adult life and this is what the democrats give me, a big fat nothing. They stole another election from us and expect us to sit down and shut up while they dismantle what’s left of the new deal. If you think they are being wronged then you are suffering the results of decades of gaslighting and propaganda. If you feel you’ve been done wrong then report it, I can’t vote on my own post. Have at it.

       

       

    • #353403
      Haikugal
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 2,328

      You were very lucky…isn’t that video fun!!! Love it!! My Dad served on a destroyer in the Pacific during the war…a tin can. LOL

    • #353418
      Jim Lane
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 889

      With Social Security, as with any other issue, we try to make predictions about what each candidate would do if elected. We look at past actions, current statements, what pressures each is likely to respond to, etc. We can’t be infallible. We just make our best guesses.

      I look at those factors and conclude that Social Security will be in far better shape under Biden than if Trump is given four more years. Trump’s proposal to eliminate the dedicated funding source is of course particularly stark, but it’s not a bolt from the blue. Despite his campaign promises, he has in fact proposed cuts to Social Security in each year he’s been in office. (Link: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/retirement/trump-calls-for-social-security-cuts-for-fourth-consecutive-year/ar-BB10eNUa )

      Other people prefer to put their trust in Trump over Biden. I think they’re wrong, they think I’m wrong, and none of us will ever know for certain who was right, because only one person will be inaugurated on January 20.

    • #353421
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,908

      @jimlane This is getting tiresome. I certainly did not say I trusted Trump more than Biden on Social Security. No one here did, so stop putting words in my mouth. 

      I said that I trust the Democrats in Congress to stop Trump from dismantling Social Security, while I do not trust them to stop Joe Biden from doing the same if and when he does.

      You’re free to disagree with me there, and to tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about, but stop implying I said something I didn’t. I’ve had quite enough of that.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #353428
      Jim Lane
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 889

      @ohiobarbarian

      What I wrote: “Other people prefer to put their trust in Trump over Biden.”

      You say I was putting words in your mouth, but I never said that you personally were in that group.  My post didn’t even have an @ohiobarbarian in it.  In fact, it didn’t have an @ anyone in it.  I was commenting generally on the Social Security debate.

      As I stated, I believe “that Social Security will be in far better shape under Biden than if Trump is given four more years.”  Some people disagree.  There are people who put their trust in Trump because they believe that he’ll revive the privatization idea and that a privatized system will be better than what we have now.  There are people who put their trust in Trump because they support his plan to abolish the dedicated revenue stream and pay all benefits out of general funds.  There are people who mistrust Biden because they see him as a wolf in sheep’s clothing, and who think that Trump’s open hostility is at least more honest.  I wasn’t attempting a complete taxonomy of all the views with which I disagree, let alone attributing any particular view to any one person.

    • #353439
      Babel 17
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 5,397

      The residents of those countries don’t have representation in our government, and just speaking up for them as our electoral process plays out can get you branded as a pariah. Those war crimes were countenanced by President Obama though, so that grants them the property of invisibility, most of the time.

      The only time Biden spoke of them was to mention (paraphrasing) that he warned that they were risky ventures. (Thanks Hillary!)

      And sure enough, some folks had their nations turned upside down, and millions of folks got killed, wounded, left homeless, and made the grieving relatives of wives, husbands, brothers, sisters, children, aunts and uncles, and so on. In the USA our kids get counseling, and therapy at their schools, if they undergo just 1% of the trauma millions of kids in Libya and Syria had to suffer.

      Those of them who currently have the internet or TV can marvel over how here in the USA we have zero fracks to give for their suffering, though we care very much for our own lives, and those of our fellow Americans. They get to grow numb as we go to the polls and cast our votes based on myriad issues, while what happened to them never being one of them.

      Biden was the one candidate who exemplified having a lot of responsibility for those war crimes, and not showing any concern for what led to them happening, or their aftermath. To vote for Biden is to countenance that attitude, and to countenance the wicked process that led to him being the nominee.

      Ha, Cornel West is now on in that Peoples Party live event. He implies he’s still on the fence for this election, but leaning towards opposing the fascism of Trump, presumably by voting for Biden.

    • #353441
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,908

      @jimlane It is a constant of many of those voting for Biden, for whatever reason, to at least imply that anyone who refuses to do so, again for whatever reason, prefers Trump to Biden, with the wink-wink-nudge-nudge that they will actually vote for Trump, or are a “repuke.” It is possible I am reading things in that don’t exist, because communication in this format does lend itself to misunderstanding.

      You’re also a lawyer, and I never completely trust any lawyer. All are masters at innuendo, and that’s what I saw when I read your reply. There is no point in continuing this conversation any further. I’ll wish you and yours the best of luck in the interesting times ahead and leave it there.

       

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #353524
      Jim Lane
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 889

      @ohiobarbarian

      You write that “many” Biden supporters imply that anyone not voting for Biden actually prefers Trump, secretly if not openly.  I’m sure there are some such Biden supporters.  I don’t know whether there are enough to constitute “many”.

      What I do know is that I’m not one of them.  What I wrote — https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/prediction-game-how-well-will-the-green-party-do-this-year/#post-352659 — a few days ago:

      Many progressives have two objectives with their vote. They’d like to express their view that the Democratic nominee is too conservative, but they’d also like to do their part to give the office to that Democrat because the only realistic alternative is a truly horrible Republican, who’s far worse.

      The biggest problem the Green Party has, in a simple first-past-the-post system with no IRV, is that those voters can’t do both things with one vote.

      For my part, I’m OK with using my vote in the primary to express my opinion that Biden is too conservative, and then using my vote in the general to influence the choice of who will be inaugurated on January 20.  I understand, however, that some progressives disagree.  They might think Biden would be (however slightly) less bad than Trump, but they prioritize using their vote to express their disdain for Biden by voting for a minor party or by not voting.  I think they’re making a mistake but I don’t think it means they prefer Trump.

      To be fair, however, some Green voters do prefer Trump.  There is a line of argument that says: We welcome a victory by Trump, even though he’s the worse of the two major-party candidates, because his depredations in office will persuade the electorate to support more left-wing policies, or because the Democrat’s defeat will either move that party to the left or hasten its inevitable demise.  That’s certainly not all Green voters but it’s some of them.

       

    • #353551
      Earthartist
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,564

      I honestly agree on much of what you said but on the MIC no just no. Both parties vote over and over for the MIC the dems have pretend votes when they have 1 house like Bernie cutting the pentagon budget by 10% knowing full well it would go nowhere. It gives them something to claim they are in agreement with you on,  then like my critters they turn around and vote for the pentagon budget, that for the last number of years they have been adding on over what the president has requested! The idea that this is just trump is BS This is the one party system.

       

      Earthartist

    • #353554
      Earthartist
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,564

      Ravensong: Very offensive when white upper to middle class women play this card. But to use this against a fellow JPR member is really off the charts your hate for trump is making you spew hate all around. This is the kind of superior BS that I ran into in dp when I was vice chair either you agree with me or you are xyz. I lasted a year before I said no more. The reason the D party gets nothing done is they attack their own on a regular basis. The repukes to their credit do not do this, Trump actually speaks to the lower class and serves their coolaide for better or worse. The biden dems just shit on anyone who disagrees and wants something better. FYI you are supporting a racist segregationist who loves to slaughter brown people around the world. His running mate likes to see black men in her prison system cause they make cheep firefighters!

      Earthartist

    • #353770
      RobertFromNC
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 96

      that Biden is a greater evil than Trump, at least when it comes to the issues, although I do think that you could make a case that Trump winning at least gives progressives a better chance in 2024. I think that it would be much harder to challenge an incumbent democrat from the left, regardless of whether that candidate is running in the democratic primary or on a third-party ticket.

      With that being said, I think that debating which candidate is the worst is an irrelevant point anyway. Voting for evil is not sustainable long-term, and at some point you just have to stand up and say no more.

    • #353794
      eridani
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 10,243

      That is to say, those who sometimes vote but are not policy wonks.  That would be Socialist Alternative, who actually elected a socialist to the Seattle City Council with the aid of 400+ volunteers.  If you don’t believe in voter contact, then there is no way that you are actually serious about electoral politics.

      Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

    • #353819
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,908

      @eridani

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

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