A talk with a lunatic.

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  • #246200

    chknltl
    Member
    • Total Posts: 807
    @chknltl

    Lunatics in my estimation come in two colors, blue and red.

    Try as they might, they fail to convince the other color of their point of view nor do they see the other’s point of view either.

    What is causing me significant hair-loss is that while I see the war between red and blue accomplishes nothing for either team, I can not convince them that they both fight against the wrong enemy-an enemy they share equally.

    Putting this all aside, I get to drive a diabetic Conservative on Social Security around to do his shopping once per month.

    He has no car, lives in a tiny trailer, survives solely on his monthly S.S. check and is solidly mired in the red team camp.

    “So what do you think of Pres. Trump killing those Iranian Generals?” He asked.

    “It was an utterly despicable act, an act of war!”, I told him. “It risks WWIII, it prooves what I have said all along, that Trump is reckless, that he cares more for corporations and nations who want war than he does for us citizens of this country or this planet!”

    “Nah, Iran won’t go to war with us”, he said. We got the biggest military on…” I interepted him with, “You mean to say that we are the biggest damned bully this planet has ever seen-we hire out our military to the highest bidders, in this case Netanyahu and likely the Wahibists in Saudi Arabia.”

    “What is wrong with others paying for our military?” he asked as if that were a good thing.

    “Who’s military?” “Who’s boys and girls?” “Who’s blood?” and do you really believe that our tax dollars are not being thrown down that rabbit hole-that that money being paid our politicians isn’t instead winding up in their pockets?”, I returned rhetorically.

    “When he then said that voting for Trump was the lesser of two evils, I had to ask “Lesser between who? Hitler and Mussolini… Judas and Hillary… Stalin or Pelosi?”

    (He liked two of the three comparisons)

    Then I asked him how Make America Great again worked out for him.

    “The economy is better”.

    As we were pulling into the very full Wal-Mart parking lot I pressed my point, “Ok…so now that the man you voted for is in office, specifically, how is this better economy of HIS working out for YOU???”

    “Well, things have not changed so much for me….”

    “Didn’t you just say that the economy is doing better? If so then for who? Can you point to someone in this very parking lot who is bennifiting better from Trump’s economy?”

    That’s when he turned to me and said accusingly, “Name a poor person who has made you any money, go ahead, name someone who is in poverty who signs paychecks!”

    I pointed to the people coming and going in the parking lot, I pointed to their average crappy cars… and then I pointed at him, “Do you think anyone in this parking lot is doing all that much better than yourself?”

    “Do you see that kid in the blue vest pushing around shopping carts for Wal-Mart?”

    “Do you see that door greeter who checks your bags when you leave in order to make sure that you are not stealing stuff?”

    You guys, you guys are the poor, the impoverished ones who are signing those Wal-Mart employee pay checks!

    Then I pointed at Wal-Mart, “You idiots think that the Waltons simply print money?

    “Do you see gobs of fantastically rich people shopping here at Wallyworld?”

    “No, the Waltons collect their millions and millions of dollars weekly, maybe even daily from YOU, the poor and the impoverished when you purchase their made in China garbage and you subsidize their employees with food stamps and emergency health care.”

    “YOU sign those checks while the Waltons are laughing their asses off at you but you have the utter lunacy to wonder why I support Senator Sanders, a man who wants to help YOU but you support Trump, a man who supports the Waltons!”

    I was angry at this lunatic by now. I hope he got my point…I doubt it…they never do.

    He had nothing further to say, he just went into Wal-Mart and spent $180 on meds and the rest of $500 on groceries to get him through the month.

  • #246201

    David the Gnome
    Member
    • Total Posts: 1,529
    @davidthegnome

    Nicely done.  You left him without much to say- but with plenty to think about.  We need to talk about these things, whatever our personal politics may be.  It is coming down to survival, for all of us.

  • #246256

    sadoldgirl
    Member
    • Total Posts: 577
    @sadoldgirl

    It is important to point out that left/right are

    just invented terms to divide us. Well done!

    • #246369

      The Red Menace
      Member
      • Total Posts: 463
      @twilightsporkle

      That’s a pretty silly thing to say. Yall gotta get over this “unity” fetish. it doesn’t make you look wise, it doesn’t make you look fair, it doesn’t make you look astute, it makes you look like someone quoting the back of a cereal box.

      I am divided from the right not by a mysterious “them” but because my personal ideals cannot and will not support an ideology focused aroudn exploiting the poor for the gain of the rich, centering power in the hands of people on basis of their race, religion, or other caste signifiers, and I cannot tolerate hyper-nationalist militancy. I find these ideas repulsive and impossible to reconcile with.

      I am a leftist. I have ideas. i have beliefs. And these ideas and beliefs are very different from people on the right, and people in “the center.” My division from them is not due to some arbitrary nomenclature, but because i am working in direct opposition to them, and they to me. “Right” and “left’ are simply descriptive terms for the divide that’s already there.

      • #246485

        chknltl
        Member
        • Total Posts: 807
        @chknltl

        @twilightsporkle

        Perhaps…perhaps you are right that the better debate is the one between the values deeply held by the so called Left and the Right.

        Perhaps I am just not there with you…. yet.

        I see the ‘divide’ itself as extremely more important.

        I say this because I do not see any shiffting of the needle through current methods.

        From my perspective I have only on the rarest of rare moments seen one of my Red team supporting chums grudgingly accept this or that bit from my so called Blue team arguments.

        I OTOH see nothing from the so called Red team argument that could persuade me in any way shape or form to switch sides.

        So we are at an impasse….perhaps.

        It occures to me that there actually are things we share, the Red and the Blue team supporters, especially when my chums are among the impoverished.

        While I have found no common ground with wealthy Red team supporters, those without the wealth share a common mistrust in our govenment.

        From our discussions, we both deeply believe that there was no influence of our elections between Russia and Trump. We both get it that this impeachment is a waste of time, tax dollars and going nowhere.

        On a higher level-a level not seen in the corporate media, we both hate the corporatist Dems, my hate for Hillary and Pelosi is as strong if not stronger than theirs.

        When we sit down and explore the actual reasons for this hate, it becomes revealed that it is corporatism controlling our government as it’s source-it becomes revealed that our courporate controlled government is neither Red team nor Blue team but both teams against We The People!

        Imagine that! Both teams agreeing on something. Sure, from my perspective it has been those without the wealth who agree with me but it is a start.

        Guess what, if it could truly happen, these same Red team supporters would give up these senseless wars in the middle east in trade for getting their teeth fixed, cheaper meds, free health care or food assistance.

        I share this with them. I want these things for the poor of this country. Like all who support Bernie for President, we fight for these things and more.

        To me this is a critical breakthrough! Name even one of your above mentioned values that you fight for that couldn’t be easier accomplished with the removal of the roadblocks put before us by corporatism.

        Like I said in my OP, I pull my hair out trying to get through to supporters of the both Red and Blue teams that the single most important thing that needs to be taken away from our corporate controlled government is their control of OUR GOVERNMENT itself.

        This government belongs to us-WE THE PEOPLE! We share this regardless of which team we support.

        If we continue this Red Team vs Blue team fight, what we instead seek is a government of by and for half of us. The only end to that in my opinion, is one where the corporate media keeps us divided and the corporatists get to run our government as they see fit.

        Trust me when I say that I am a Progressive, I’ve always held Progressive values. IMHO, i see no clear way to accomplish those values in our country without first taking back our government.

        When it comes to fighting for our very democracy, the lines blur between “teams”. I see this blurring as potentially the citizenry’s greatest strength, something exploitable when throwing off the shackles of corporatism.

        For this reason I try to share what should be commonalities between the Red and Blue teams. With this as my tool-as my methodology, i intend to bring the poor and impoverished who identify as Red Team supporters over to our shared Progressive values.

        Every vote is important, fighting against these guys has not worked so far. My fight is instead against corporatism running my government, not against my fellow citizen.

        BTW, guess who said this:

        “It is impossible that our government got this fucked up by accident!”

        Remember that guy I got mad at in my OP? That is his line. To me it prooves that we share something I can exploit, something which supporters of both teams share which is exploitable if we are to take back our government.

        He is right, Our government did not get this fucked up by accident. It won’t get better by accident either.

        I hope that you see now that I see no clear way forward for Progressivism in this country through fighting with each other. I get it that few agree with me, I understand the passion for our values makes us fight so hard for them.

        I hope that I have made my case in how I see it best to do just that.

        • #246488

          The Red Menace
          Member
          • Total Posts: 463
          @twilightsporkle

          @chknltl,

          I’m not saying people can’t be won over or that common ground cannot be found. Obviously political alignment isn’t static, people can and do chance their minds about things. My point is just that the distinction between “left” and “right” is not arbitrary or purely semantic, these are terms that describe groupings of real and impactful ideological differences people hold.

          That is, I fully endorse trying to pull people to the left – the fact Democrats refuse to ever challenge right-wing ideology and instead just abandon people to it is one of my big criticisms of the party. What i’m arguing against is the idea that there are no such distinctions, that a difference in ideologies is artificial and devised by a suspicious “them” to “keep us divided.” People COME divided, that’s just people.

          And… I’m sorry but some things do need to be fought. There’s a plethora of dangerous, damaging ideas in our politics and people who adhere to them very firmly. While I advocate persuasion, I also realize that there’s a limit; Just as I’m not going to ever be persuaded by a Nazi’s argument, I figure it’s unlikely they’ll be persuaded by mine… so conflict is entirely unavoidable – and is in fact entirely desirable, in that instance.

  • #246291

    MistaP
    Member
    • Total Posts: 2,079
    @mistap

    good conversation, you’re touching not on specific details (they can always quibble) but on the fundamental assumptions–off the top of my head you hit his conceptions that

    1. that the rich did something to earn it
    2. that people should help themselves
    3. that any “assistance” he gets is also earned (which can spin off both points #1 and #2)

    https://berniesanders.com/ https://www.tulsi2020.com/

    • #246364

      Cold Mountain Trail
      Member
      • Total Posts: 5,579
      @coldmountaintrail

      4.  that poor people are making the waltons rich (but the jobs are in china)

  • #246303

    incognito
    Donor
    • Total Posts: 2,336
    @incognito

    The next time you see your RW guy you should tell him if he votes for Bernie, his Medicare will likely be free (if his SS is $29,000 or less per year). His eye Care will be covered. He could get someone to go into his home to help take care of him. He can go to the dentist without costs. And… He will never pay more than $200 a year for his medicine.

    Is that $180 he spent on meds for one month? For three months? He would save a LOT of money if Bernie becomes president.

    Give him some specifics on what Bernie will do for HIM.

     

  • #246358

    chknltl
    Member
    • Total Posts: 807
    @chknltl

    @incognito

    To be honest, I do not know if he truly had any money left over from his monthly Social Security.  I do know that I provide this ride for him once per month and only once per month.

    Perhaps he has other rides at other times.  In other words perhaps he has more in medical expenses/assistance than what I just observed and/or perhaps he had foodstamps as well.

    The numbers I quoted above where the ones he told me about when he got done putting his groceries in the back of my car.

    Regarding his meds, I asked him if he had just spent $180 on insulin and he said, “No, that was last month”, he then held a white bag out and said that “these are for this month”, then he removed a large inhaler from that bag and put it to use.

    I had cooled off by the time he had gotten back. Had he so chosen to continue his lunatic conversation about the economy, how Trump was “helping” anyone other than the ultra rich, how his personal health costs were as good as they could get or how a vote for Trump over Bernie was the “lesser of two evils”, (the point I think he was about to make earlier that set me off the most),-had he done any of the above I would not have hesitated to squash his propaganda influenced paradigms.

    There was one bit I left out above from our trip in to Wal-Mart. I DID tell him that unlike President Trump, President Sanders would fight for all of our health care, that he was the only one fighting for Medicare For All. I told him that I support Sanders in this.

    His response? “It is ballony, Sanders is lieing because M4A will cost $58 Trillion and there is no where to get that sort of money.”

    I was pretty much at full boil when I told him that his figures were just wrong and that unlike politicians he was used to, Senator Sanders not only talked the talk but his record shows that he walks the walk. I pointed out how Bernie organized bus trips for the elderly like himself-bustrips to Canada in order to get their meds for cheaper than what they would pay for them in the U.S.

     

     

    • #246365

      Cold Mountain Trail
      Member
      • Total Posts: 5,579
      @coldmountaintrail

      You can’t make a horse drink, but hoping the day will come when he’ll say to you “You were right about Sanders & things are better for me”

    • #246419

      incognito
      Donor
      • Total Posts: 2,336
      @incognito

      Whew! This is going to be a tough nut to crack.

      Based on just the $180 for his meds for this month, on M4A, he would save $1960 or $163 a month. That’s $1960 he could use to buy food or pay bills or use for other necessities. That much money would pay my gas, water and garbage pickup every month! If his meds are more than $180 some months, he will save even more and have even more money to spend on his needs.

      A REPUBLICAN think tank study was done on M4A and we now pay MORE for healthcare than what M4A will cost.

      Any time he goes to a doctor, it’s free if his income is $29,000 or less.  And very minimal amount (in taxes) if it’s over $29,000 a year (4% of anything over $29,000).

      Something has to get through to this man!

      Just tossing out a few stats for you to throw at him. 😉

      Maybe it will take Bernie getting elected for him to see his life isn’t supposed to be this way.

      It’s unbelievable how these RWers are sooooooo indoctrinated, brainwashed and propagandized. Fox News has done some major damage and I’m sure that was Murdoch’s, Limbaugh’s, Hannity and O’Reilly’s goal.

      @chknltl

  • #246375

    joentokyo
    Member
    • Total Posts: 757
    @joentokyo

    A steady diet of Faux News Network makes people incapable of rational thought, critical thinking, or analysis, most MAGA madhaters only watch Fox. However, the other networks just offer different takes on the same old same old. It is no wonder most ‘Murcans are sheep being led to slaughter.

    We the Sheeple

    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron."

    - Dwight D. Eisenhower

  • #246389

    N2Doc
    Donor
    • Total Posts: 5,198
    @n2doc

    He’s lost to the RW propaganda machine. Likely will go to his grave praising Trump (or whomever the RW anoints as their next savior) and blaming ‘liberals’ for all his troubles.

    This is why the young are our only hope, they haven’t yet been brainwashed to the point of irrationality. Yet.

  • #246490

    sonofspy777
    Donor
    • Total Posts: 4,288
    @sonofspy777

    The only way to counteract RW  propaganda is to use a steady diet of truth repeated at least as many times…

    The human race has few (if any) problems that couldn’t be solved by massive wealth.  And we’re literally surrounded by it, like a fly in amber.  Now if we only had brains… —Ben Bova

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