About Vaccinations…

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    • #41500
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,602

      My fiancé and I were discussing this topic this morning – as I drank my first cup of coffee.  Someone I have a certain amount of respect and affection for – posted on facebook that the measles outbreak is being caused by the measles vaccine.  This is, simply put, entirely, 100% false.  Yet she linked to a so called “news site” where the claim is made.  For reference: https://newstarget.com/2019-03-06-genetic-sequencing-science-breakthrough-just-proved-that-measles-outbreaks-are-caused-by-the-measles-vaccine.html?

      So, here’s a person who is pretty well known in my area – who is linking to “news” that is not only fake, but dangerous if you actually believe it.  This anti vaccer business has gone on long enough – it has risked enough lives and even ended some.  There is no solid evidence that the current vaccines are causing the measles, or autism, or most of the other things anti vaccers like to theorize about.  The problem with the continuing disinformation campaign is that it is going to cost lives.  People will decide not to vaccinate because they listen to perhaps well meaning, but ignorant friends who tell them the vaccines are causing things… which they do not cause.  Then parents will stop vaccinating their kids (even more so than now) and diseases will spread.  Even those like the measles which were previously considered to have been eliminated.

      When you decide not to vaccinate yourself, or your children, it is not just your own life – or even just theirs, that you are risking.  You are risking the health, the safety, the lives of many others that you or they come into contact with.  Some of us have forgotten the lessons that should have been inherited from our ancestors.  Even our ancestors of not so long ago – during the massive so called “spanish flu” of 1918.  We have examples of epidemics and plagues that, historically, wiped out cities and even civilizations.  These people weren’t stupid – but they didn’t have the same medicines we have today.

      Desperate measures were taken.  They are still taken, at times, in terms of quarantining communities and/or burning property to stop the spread of the disease – some times it helps, some times it is already too late.

      I speak of this because there is every reason to believe that another epidemic, plague of some sort, is eventually going to hit massively populated areas.  If and when it does, researchers, doctors and scientists, will rush to find a vaccine.  If they can – perhaps they can slow or even stop such.  They can’t do so though, if people refuse to vaccinate.  The CDC is a flimsy defense not due to incompetence – but due to distrust and even outright hostility.  They exist for a reason – when they quarantine – they do so for a reason.  We’ve all seen enough television (or read enough books) to have some idea of what happens during an outbreak, even the post apocalyptic shows or novels (the walking dead, anyone?) that show a CDC, military and Nation – perhaps a world, that fails to handle an outbreak, in spite of every tool available.

      While the zombie apocalypse is rather unlikely, there is good reason to be concerned about the outbreak of disease.

      The measles – and other illnesses, have returned – and will continue to return and to spread, as long as people refuse to vaccinate and nonetheless, are not restrained from society.  It’s not just schools, public or otherwise.  Grocery stores, playgrounds, churches, what have you.  So I have to wonder… what response is adequate?  When does it cease being a matter of individual civil rights and become a matter of public safety?  When an epidemic starts killing hundreds of thousands, even millions?  When the measles outbreak reaches every state?  When it does become such a matter… what should we do about it?

      We can quarantine for individual cases – cases that are known, which are never going to be all of them, particularly not with very contagious disease.  When it comes to something like the measles though – we have a working vaccination – that most of us can get (some cannot, due to allergy/illness, etc.) that will actually prevent it in the overwhelming majority of cases.  If we choose not to do this, we can be, potentially, ticking time bombs, as they say.

      I am all for personal freedom – but I am not for stupidly killing people through ignorance.  If people refuse to vaccinate, in spite of thoroughly documented proof of a vaccine’s effectiveness, then additional steps need to be taken.  I just don’t know which.  We cannot quarantine everyone who refuses, not indefinitely, we cannot prevent their access to all public goods, services and places.  Not without becoming even more of a police state.  Nor would I want to see society take that route.  We can educate and hope it works, but that’s what we have been trying – and right now, it is failing.  We can banish those who refuse – but to where?  Make them another Country’s problem?  Send them to the moon?  Leper colonies?

      This is such a tricky and controversial issue because it then becomes a question of how far this can be pushed.  Can you force people to get vaccinated?  No.  Not everyone, in any event.  What we CAN do, however – and probably should do, sooner rather than later, is begin constructing medical facilities/institutions to contain anti-vaccers until they DO vaccinate.  If they never do – then this still would be a semi-effective quarantine.  Wouldn’t cover everyone – but, frankly, it needs to be a matter of law.  We are worried about climate change – and for good reason, but there is every chance that the next massive epidemic to hit us will wipe out massive numbers of people.  A new TB strain, a deadlier flu virus, hell, could be anything.  Could be a plague like we haven’t seen in centuries.

      Maybe I’m extreme – or maybe, the fact that society has been so damn soft on this one, is going to ultimately cost millions of lives.  I wouldn’t want to bet on all the anti-vaccers suddenly getting it together.  We cannot afford the risk – the near certainty – of the eventual suffering and death their ignorance will cause.

    • #41516
      N2Doc
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 7,451

      I’m not in favor of any sort of pre-emptive quarantine. That’s pretty authoritarian. What should be possible is a combination of coercion (one’s children and the adults who refuse to vaccinate them are not allowed to use public facilities like schools, One is legally and criminally liable for those who get sick because you didn’t vaccinate, etc. ) education and research into making vaccines better.

    • #41530
      Average Gazoo
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 420

      There are so many things wrong with the American healthcare system, primarily high costs, poor access and poor quality.  I’m sure Merck and the rest would love to make various drugs and vaccines mandatory even though 1) many people have natural immunities as shown by titers, and 2) all vaccines have limits to their effectiveness and their benefits to risk ratio.   There was a human version of the vaccine for lyme disease. It was pulled in 1994 because exposure to the disease, even in attenuated form, engenders lifelong complications.

      Our best defense against serious outbreaks will not come from giving pharma even more power, more profits and less accountability.  It will come from providing medicare for all and paid sick leave so that those who are ill or at risk have access to the best care, including preventative care, and those who are ill can stay home without the risk of losing their job or home.

      Fear and demonization will only create more victims.

      Be the Change

      • #42174
        closeupready
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,324

        Completely agree.  It saddens me that people here are doing the pharma industry’s PR job for free.

        The opinions and personal views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and should never be taken seriously.

    • #41543
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,602

      The thing is, people who have good coverage right now are not getting vaccinated.  Denial of public services is one thing… along with criminal liability (I do not know if it applies currently – you would at minimum have to prove someone gave you an illness deliberately or through neglect) but…

      There are outbreaks – and there are epidemics.  In the case of the latter, extreme measures will be taken if the effect is severe.  History demonstrates this.

      It is not fear mongering to point out simple facts.  The more followers this anti vaccination movement gets, the worse it will be.  I’m not up for dying because some dumbass listened to a quack who told them x vaccine gives you x illness.

      Its not about pharma.  Frankly, these vaccines can be (and often are) provided free of charge.  It’s one thing to say “that’s authoritarian!” Its quite another when people die due to someone else’s stupidity in not getting vaccinated.

      1 + 1 is 2.  Another epidemic will eventually occur.  How we prepare for it can make a massive difference.  If millions of people decide not to get vaccinations shown to generally prevent illness x…

      Well, up to you, I guess.  The healthcare system may be largely broken – but as for me, I’ll get the vaccinations.

      • #41551
        Average Gazoo
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 420

        There are people in the Seattle measles outbreak who were vaccinated and got measles anyway.  They are being lumped in with and demonized as “Anti-Vax.”  You could have a 100% MMR vaccination rate and still have outbreaks.

        There are doctors and journalists who discuss vaccination science and issues with specific vaccines — they are also being demonized and not just irresponsible discussion but fact-based discussion is being curtailed.  For example this recent article in a reputable publication is very careful about how presents its findings.  While MMR is 93 to 97% effective, the flu vaccine has no reliable statistics or proof of efficacy.  This article tries to sort through the challenges and the path toward a better flu vaccine but it has to do so amid the climate of demonization:

        http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/09/why-flu-vaccines-so-often-fail

         

        Be the Change

      • #42173
        closeupready
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,324

        The vaccines are NEVER provided free of charge.  They may not cost anything to the individual being immunized, but the pharmaceutical provider DOES get reimbursed by the government.

        The opinions and personal views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and should never be taken seriously.

        • #42187
          David the Gnome
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 2,602

          @closeupready

          I realize that.  I was a telemarketer at one point – and always had to cover myself by making sure to say “at no cost to you”.  No, nothing is really free, perhaps I should be more specific, but I figured that was a given.

          Anyhow, various pharmacies, hospitals and whatnot do often provide these vaccines at no immediate cost to the individual.  If you pay taxes, sure, you are paying something for them – but not inmediately.

          It’s not like with insulin, cancer drugs and others that are a matter of life or death for lots of people.  Generally speaking, in America, the vaccines are available, even to most who cannot afford to pay for them.

          Yes, the government reimburses with tax dollars – that’s one thing I imagine most would prefer be covered…

          • #42194
            closeupready
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 1,324

            Qui bene, as pretentious people like me ask on message boards (lol).  Some people will do ANYTHING for money.

            If money is involved, there’s a crook to be found, in my experience.  Pushing people to get the 20% effective flu vaccine “for free” when the government ensures a profit-per-vaccination of $50 or whatever is the very DEFINITION of conflict of interest.

            The opinions and personal views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and should never be taken seriously.

    • #41568
      sonofspy777
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 5,156

      My right to swing my fist ends at your face!

      As measles lives in the nasal passages of the infected person it can be spread by coughing sneezing etc.

      In other words it’s AIRBORNE and can live in the air (and on surfaces!) for two hours, more than enough

      to infect dozens of others, “here take this paper and pass it back” 1st person has (dormant) measles now 20 people

      have measles!

      As a licensed healthcare worker I feel because of the criminal misinformation and due to what has become

      an epidemic un-vaccinated children should be kept out of school as well as anyone with an active

      case of measles!

      https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/transmission.html

       

      Bernie figured he could do more good ALIVE,
      than dead in a small plane "accident".
      I think he's right.

      Don't you?

    • #41769
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 14,469

      Before I answer your question, you need to know three things. First, I am a measles survivor, not that that’s rare or anything, but I had the measles when I was 7 years old before the vaccine existed. Had rubella, too. The measles were no fun. I was sick for a solid week; high fever, the spots all over me, hallucinations.

      Second, I’ve worked in social services agencies for 30 years. There’s a phrase we use to describe parents and guardians who knowingly endanger their children because of how those parents and guardians feel: Child abuse. In such situations, the state has a duty to look out for the best interests of the child, no matter how he parents feel about it or what they believe.

      Third, the ultimate reason that parents oppose vaccination is a religious one: They don’t want to interfere with God’s will. That’s where all this shit started, just like the Roman Catholic Church is still officially opposed to the birth control pill because their doctrine says it is up to God to decide whether or not a woman gets pregnant. And making decisions that impact, and sometimes take, the lives of children for religious reasons with no basis in fact is as unacceptable as ruling that a woman can’t use birth control.

      There is zero evidence that the Mumps-Measles-Rubella vaccine causes autism. Zero. The anti-vax sentiment on this issue has no basis in reality, and parents have no right to jeopardize their children’s health, or other people’s children, because of how they feel about it.

      Accordingly, my position is that parents should be forced to allow their children to have the MMR vaccine. I don’t care if they have to have a gun held to their heads and handcuffed. It’s time we put a stop to this insanely dangerous bullshit.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

    • #42141
      RobertFromNC
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 91

      Couldn’t agree more, and I say this as someone who almost always in favor of rights and freedom of choice. However, I would argue your rights end at another person’s nose and that we have a right to not get infected from preventable contagious diseases. If someone poses a risk to society, they are either locked up or institutionalized(such as the violent and insane), and we have limitations on choices/actions that affect other people(for example, you can’t smoke in a hospital), but for some reason, antivaxxers bring this argument up and this issue is raised in the debate. I don’t get how this is supposed to be some kind of right, even though it has serious negative consequences on others and poses a risk to other people.

      Also, parenting should be about what’s in the best interest of the child, not what the adult wants. That’s why child services can confiscate your children if necessary, and adoption agencies have strict standards.

      Congratulations on getting married!

    • #42154
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,602

      @robertfromnc

      We are in agreement there.  Unfortunately – I won’t be able to get married for a couple years (if I did as we had initially planned, for September, I’d lose my social security benefits – and right now we need that).

      What’s sad to me is that when, prior to and during the Reagan era, it was decided to dismantle our institutions…. little to no thought was given as to what, if anything, should replace them.  In general, it ended up being prisons – as well as hospitals that are now overwhelmed dealing with issues that should be handled by psych hospitals/institutions/something equipped for it.  It likely contributed massively to homelessness as well.  Instead of having a place to go (albeit, there were problems – big ones – with the system) if someone is severely mentally ill their choices are limited.  Particularly in the case of those who are prone to violence – maybe because they hear voices, or see things that aren’t there.  It’s…. well, insane.

      IMO – there should be a National system of psychiatric institutions (with very strict oversight) in addition to rehab centers and housing.  Not nearly enough of it now… too many fall through the cracks.  Err, I’m off on a rant here.  Anyhow… I think we can do a lot better – and in the case of those who are against vaccinations and/or do not receive them, deliberately, because, God, or something…. I am not opposed to permanent quarantine facilities.  They can put each other and the (volunteer) staff there at risk – and leave the rest of us out of it.


      @ohiobarbarian

      Both of my parents have worked now, for over forty years at the hospital I was born in.  My mom used to work psych – my dad has always been a PR Director/administrator.  I have heard many, many stories.  It is a hell of a thing when a child needs, say, a blood transfusion to live… and the parents will not permit it, because, God told them not to, or something.  Vaccinations, medications, medical treatment and technology in general… are there for a reason.  Assuming there even is such a being as the capital G God… would it not make more sense that it would work through human beings by manner of inspiration?  That quiet voice of conscience and/or inner wisdom that tells you what is right or wrong?  You know, you can refuse treatment and pray all day long – but ultimately, perhaps such a being would have inspired the Doctor to give a damn, or the paramedic, or who ever.

      Some time in my twenties, I got really into Catholicism.  Went off my medications – told my doctors and everyone else who asked that I was going to rely on my faith.  Well, assuming, again, that there is a capital G type deity… all things would be it’s creation, that from which we get medicine, as well.  Tools, here to be used.  Going off my meds did not end well for me.  It’s like the story of the dude who is drowning in shark infested waters.  Three ships stop by and offer to help, he replies, “No.  I am waiting for God to save me.”  Sharks get him, he gets to heaven – asks God why he didn’t save him.  “I sent you three ships.  Idiot.”

      Eh… theology and spirituality aside though, simple facts ought to be enough in this case.  97%.

    • #42686
      RobertFromNC
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 91

      @davidthegnome I do agree that the mentally ill who pose a threat to others need treatment and/or to be put in a mental health facility. Not in prison or out on the streets. I have heard about that before that Reagan defunded mental health treatment, causing many to go homeless or be locked up.

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