Home Main Forums General Discussion An Open Letter to Voters Who Believe in the Right to Have Guns

  • Ohio Barbarian (5159 posts)
    Profile photo of Ohio Barbarian Donor

    An Open Letter to Voters Who Believe in the Right to Have Guns

    I grew up in Texas. My father had a .12 gauge shotgun and one of my favorite memories is of him shooting some local bullies who had egged our cars the previous Halloween in their fleeing butts with rock salt. Many members of my extended family were hunters, and I went on a couple of trips. I grew up with guns. Revolvers, shotguns, bolt action rifles, and one uncle taught me how to shoot a military issue .45, still my favorite firearm. Won an expert marksman ribbon in the Navy on that one, I did.

    My mother thought all guns should be banned, especially after the assassinations of JFK, RFK, MLK and the University of Texas Tower sniper in the 1960’s. I never have thought that, and still don’t. And I’m a Socialist, so don’t believe the lies the NRA, the gun manufacturing lobby, Republican candidates and Fox News tell you about all leftists wanting to take away all of your guns. That’s just bullshit, and many of you know it because you’ve met people kinda like me, and are maybe related to a few. That will never happen in America. There’s too many guns out there, anyway. Unrealistic.

    I differ from many of you, maybe not even most, in that I am absolutely convinced that no ordinary citizen, or police officer for that matter, should be allowed to possess weapons that were designed for the military with the sole purpose of killing as many people, as many enemies, as possible in the shortest amount of time. What we call “assault weapons” or even semi-automatic pistols with magazines of more than six to ten or so rounds are what I will call Weapons of Mass Murder, for that is what they are made to do. That is their purpose.

    They are not designed to hunt deer. They are not designed for home defense. They are not designed to be fun to play with on shooting ranges. They are designed to kill dozens of the “enemy,” whoever that enemy is, in just a few seconds. They are designed for war. They are designed for soldiers to kill enemy soldiers in the legally sanctioned murder of war. And war is the only place they belong.

    Weapons of mass murder should not have been available to that wackjob who mowed down dozens of country music fans in Vegas. They should not have been available to that vicious, wife and child beating bully who was drummed out of the Air Force and then murdered at least 26 people in the Baptist church in Texas because he was pissed off at his mother-in-law, who was a parishioner in said church.

    Your right to own Weapons of Mass murder is less important than my right to go to a movie theater or a mall or a church or anywhere in public without fear of being murdered by some gods-damned psycho fool. It is less important than your own family’s right to do the same, goddammit!

    And every time, every time, you send money to the NRA or vote for someone who promotes the widespread possession of Weapons of Mass Murder, you have blood on your hands. You are responsible for Newtown. You are responsible for Las Vegas. You are responsible for Sutherland Springs Baptist Church. And you’d better fucking stop it.

    Because the rest of us are really sick of this shit. Better to turn in your Weapons of Mass Murder now and join us in prohibiting the gods-damned things, or some year the day will come when the rest of us send the Army after you instead of people overseas who, for the most part, have never done us any harm. Because you have done us harm. Again and again and again by helping people obtain Weapons of Mass Murder to use them on us, and in the cases of Vegas and Sutherland Springs, no doubt to some of your own as well.

    The threat to your right, and mine, to own firearms designed for hunting or home defense is jeopardized, in the long run, more from your support of the right to own weapons most of you don’t even have than from any leftist political candidate, who would actually improve your standard of living, unlike the crop of political critters that’s been in Washington since at least 1981. Because if this goes on, there will be a Reckoning. Do you really want to take the chance of reaping that particular whirlwind? I can hear it in the distance, and it’s getting closer.

    Think, goddammit. Join us in banning and confiscating these things, like most other civilized countries do. If you don’t, things will become much more uncivil, I promise. And you will be most unhappy, or worse.

    FourScore, Rocco, Paper Roses and 31 othersCharles, davidgmills, azurnoir, Paka, Lucas Jackson, Iwillnevergiveup, Betty Karlson, Eleanors38, dlegendary1, disillusioned73, mak3cats, HeartoftheMidwest, Scuba, Katashi, eridani, hopemountain, Haikugal, PADemD, LaaDeeDaaVA, Robert From NC, area woman, Satan, Abelenkpe, Deadpool, Tierra y Libertad, 99Forever, elias39, chknltl, Gryneos, Lord Thomas, incognito like this
    Ignorance is the foundation of tyranny.   

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

▼ Hide Reply Index
59 replies
  • 1 week ago #6
    • Gryneos (1862 posts)
      Profile photo of Gryneos

      1. I'd like to see them confiscated, too.

      Yet, with the people we have in power now, it would be easier to restrict the gun manufacturers of these kinds of firearms to military contracts only. I’d like to see that happen anyway, and to get them to stop selling both parts and tools to fix or replace these weapons, unless it’s another government military contract. None of this should be available to civilians, including the police (and including SWAT.)

      Just as civilians can’t own artillery, they shouldn’t be able to get hold of any military gear, even if it’s for their “collection.”

      Maybe once such laws are in place, and the ATF is allowed to enforce them, then we can start gathering up the existing military weapons in civilian hands. Close the gun-show loophole, too.

      "That's Jeff Vader, that is."__"I am not Jeff Vader, I am Darth Vader."__"What, Jeff Vader runs the Deathstar?"__"No, Jeff… No, I run the Deathstar."__"You Jeff Vader?"__"No, I'm Darth Vader!"__"Are you his brother? Can you get his autograph?"__"I can't get it… No, I'm… All right, I'm Jeff Vader! I'm Jeff Vader!"__"Can I have your autograph?"__"No, fuck off, or I'll kill you with a tray! Give me penne a la arabiata or you shall die. And you, and everyone in this canteen! Death by tray it shall be!" Eddie Izzard, Circle
      • Ohio Barbarian (5159 posts)
        Profile photo of Ohio Barbarian Donor

        3. I agree. That would be a great start, but only a start.

        Ignorance is the foundation of tyranny.   
        • Gryneos (1862 posts)
          Profile photo of Gryneos

          5. I know it's just a start,

          but I’m thinking in terms of what would be likely to pass for legislation. Outright banning and confiscation would require something much bigger than the massacres we’ve seen so far, and it would require more than tenth of federal reps being killed in such an event. Otherwise, their fear of the NRA and getting primaried by someone even more in the NRA bandwagon outweighs our needs.

          Yes, of the people we manage to get elected to replace these wimps, they all need to be Anti-NRA. And, we need to be able to counter the propaganda that will come out of that terrorist organization’s HQ. If only we had enough friends on the Supreme Court to do a little charter revocation of the NRA…

          "That's Jeff Vader, that is."__"I am not Jeff Vader, I am Darth Vader."__"What, Jeff Vader runs the Deathstar?"__"No, Jeff… No, I run the Deathstar."__"You Jeff Vader?"__"No, I'm Darth Vader!"__"Are you his brother? Can you get his autograph?"__"I can't get it… No, I'm… All right, I'm Jeff Vader! I'm Jeff Vader!"__"Can I have your autograph?"__"No, fuck off, or I'll kill you with a tray! Give me penne a la arabiata or you shall die. And you, and everyone in this canteen! Death by tray it shall be!" Eddie Izzard, Circle
          • davidgmills (5669 posts)
            Profile photo of davidgmills Donor

            23. I keep advocating that military guns be required to be kept in licensed armories

            Militias had armories.  And if they are forced to be stored there, it will be a lot harder for people who should never have them to get them.

            At least armories avoid the problem created by a complete ban.

            I want to hear any argument as to why armories would be an unreasonable problem for gun owners.  Because if they have no reasonable argument, maybe we can get laws passed that create armories, license them and require owners to store them there.

            French Revolution; not secession.
            • Gryneos (1862 posts)
              Profile photo of Gryneos

              25. I agree with that,

              if we could convert people’s unhealthy obsessions with firearms into some form of patriotic duty of service in a government militia. But, are those types even intelligent enough to understand such a concept? Much less, willing to get behind it?

              They are a vocal minority that needs to be out-shouted-down (since that’s their only method of discourse) so that the majority of this country who support such control measures could get them implemented. Because it still relies on getting such ideas through congresses as blind as that vocal minority of constituents.

              The NRA needs to be reigned in, and I honestly wish the real hackers would do some work on them that way…

              "That's Jeff Vader, that is."__"I am not Jeff Vader, I am Darth Vader."__"What, Jeff Vader runs the Deathstar?"__"No, Jeff… No, I run the Deathstar."__"You Jeff Vader?"__"No, I'm Darth Vader!"__"Are you his brother? Can you get his autograph?"__"I can't get it… No, I'm… All right, I'm Jeff Vader! I'm Jeff Vader!"__"Can I have your autograph?"__"No, fuck off, or I'll kill you with a tray! Give me penne a la arabiata or you shall die. And you, and everyone in this canteen! Death by tray it shall be!" Eddie Izzard, Circle
              • davidgmills (5669 posts)
                Profile photo of davidgmills Donor

                31. I have no idea.

                But what I am interested in is what plausible reason they could have for saying no.  You get to keep your gun.  You just can’t store it in your house.  It is an upgrade from a special firearms case.

                French Revolution; not secession.
                • Gryneos (1862 posts)
                  Profile photo of Gryneos

                  35. Yours is a good idea.

                  I’d also like to see something that could help them learn that they have an unhealthy obsession. Maybe appeal to their morality (which is all too often religion-based)?

                  "That's Jeff Vader, that is."__"I am not Jeff Vader, I am Darth Vader."__"What, Jeff Vader runs the Deathstar?"__"No, Jeff… No, I run the Deathstar."__"You Jeff Vader?"__"No, I'm Darth Vader!"__"Are you his brother? Can you get his autograph?"__"I can't get it… No, I'm… All right, I'm Jeff Vader! I'm Jeff Vader!"__"Can I have your autograph?"__"No, fuck off, or I'll kill you with a tray! Give me penne a la arabiata or you shall die. And you, and everyone in this canteen! Death by tray it shall be!" Eddie Izzard, Circle
            • retired liberal (1759 posts)
              Profile photo of retired liberal Donor

              27. If we can't even rein in Bump Stocks, armories won't fly either.

              All the same excuses for not calling the cops when there is a “good guy with a gun” handy. Or after the good guy with a gun is shot, along with the rest of the victims.

              RICO indictments against the NRA might have a chance. Shouldn’t buying Congress Critters be agin da law?

              No matter how cynical you become, it's never enough to keep up. Lily Tomlin
              • davidgmills (5669 posts)
                Profile photo of davidgmills Donor

                29. Militias didn't have bump stocks

                I am interested in hearing arguments as to what is unreasonable about armories.

                French Revolution; not secession.
            • Lizzie Poppet (460 posts)
              Profile photo of Lizzie Poppet Donor

              37. Do you think most (or even many) owners would comply?

              Compliance with bans (of certain weapon types or with things like large capacity magazines) has been notably low in jurisdictions where such laws have been passed. In NY and CT (and it begins to look like CA, too), compliance rates have been officially estimated from between 5% to 8%. Mandatory out-of-the-home storage isn’t confiscation/banning, but I don’t imagine voluntary compliance rates are going to be significantly higher.

              People routinely violate laws they strongly disagree with, even when faced with draconian penalties (as the War on Drugs should demonstrate quite clearly). That doesn’t mean laws are useless…but it does indicate that passing them in the presence of very widespread opposition will result in high levels of non-compliance. So what then…?

              • davidgmills (5669 posts)
                Profile photo of davidgmills Donor

                44. Which begs the question? Why would they strongly disagree with armories?

                Sure there would be some suspicion that this would amount to a confiscation.

                But why do people keep their money in a bank as opposed to a mattress?  People learned to trust banks when initially they were apprehensive.

                If they came to realize it was safer maybe they would volunteer.

                French Revolution; not secession.
                • Lizzie Poppet (460 posts)
                  Profile photo of Lizzie Poppet Donor

                  52. Perhaps so.

                  I suspect that trust would take a very long time to build, though.

      • Satan (2880 posts)
        Profile photo of Satan Donor

        9. Closing the gun show loophole would be the obvious first step.

        One which no sane person should object to. And this latest insanity in Texas uncovers another loophole that most people – and Devils – weren’t even aware of. Yeah, this piece of shit was thrown out of the Air Force for beating his wife and child. But for some reason, this conviction in a military court was NOT reported to the database which is used for background checks at your local gun shop. A conviction is a conviction is a conviction. Military court, civilian court, Native American tribal court…. whatever, they should all be reporting convictions to a national database.

        That alone would have kept this fool from buying a gun.

        Fuck Kamala Harris. Fuck Borey Crooker. Fuck Joy Reid. And FUCK Hillary Clinton & her husband for destroying the Demoncratic Party.
        • Gryneos (1862 posts)
          Profile photo of Gryneos

          10. Well, I've learned that even background checks don't

          always mean much. Frontline aired a repeat of a story they did on the NRA recently, and I recall a segment where they talked with the ATF about their records. It seems Congress has been doing everything they can to prevent the ATF from being able to prevent anyone from getting any firearm they want.

          Major Congressional limits on ATF
          The ATF’s appropriation statute includes a variety of proscriptions on its power, known as “riders.” Here’s what the significant ones do.

          1. Prohibits the Justice Department from consolidating or centralizing records regarding federal firearms dealers.
          2. Prevents electronic retrieval of names or personal identification codes of gun buyers from out of business records maintained by ATF.
          3. Exempts federally licensed gun dealers from being required to maintain inventories.
          4. Requires destruction within 24 hours of FBI data from Brady Law “instant checks’ for gun purchases
          5. Restricts ATF’s right to disclose firearm trace information and data maintained by firearms dealers; trace data is immune from legal process, not subject to discovery, inadmissible as evidence in any state or federal civil action (except actions brought by ATF) or administrative proceeding. Use of trace data is thus limited in litigation and is off limits to the Freedom of Information Act.
          6. States that trace data cannot be used to draw broad conclusions about gun-related crime — a frequent NRA contention that is disputed by researchers.
          7. Bars the transfer of ATF functions to any other agency.
          8. Broadens allowable import of guns more than 50 years old – so-called curios and relics for “sporting purposes.” Passed in response to ATF efforts to tighten the definition of these weapons, which include semiautomatic military-surplus rifles.
          9. Allows importation of shotguns ATF had determined to be “non-sporting” —and thus ineligible for import—because they had features such as pistol grips, folding or collapsible stocks, laser sights and the ability to accept large capacity magazine feeding devices.
          10. Allows an individual with a federal firearms dealer’s license to purchase guns at wholesale prices for personal use or to sell to friends, neighbors or other individuals even when they are not operating what would normally be considered a “business.”

          Some other links from the Frontline page worth reading, or watching.

          Inside the “Other” Gun Lobby

          Gunned Down: The Power of the NRA
          SEASON 33: EPISODE 4 (January 6, 2015)
          In Gunned Down: The Power of the NRA, FRONTLINE goes inside the politics of America’s gun debate. Veteran FRONTLINE filmmaker Michael Kirk investigates the NRA, its political evolution and influence, and how it has consistently succeeded in defeating new gun control legislation.

          "That's Jeff Vader, that is."__"I am not Jeff Vader, I am Darth Vader."__"What, Jeff Vader runs the Deathstar?"__"No, Jeff… No, I run the Deathstar."__"You Jeff Vader?"__"No, I'm Darth Vader!"__"Are you his brother? Can you get his autograph?"__"I can't get it… No, I'm… All right, I'm Jeff Vader! I'm Jeff Vader!"__"Can I have your autograph?"__"No, fuck off, or I'll kill you with a tray! Give me penne a la arabiata or you shall die. And you, and everyone in this canteen! Death by tray it shall be!" Eddie Izzard, Circle
        • Lizzie Poppet (460 posts)
          Profile photo of Lizzie Poppet Donor

          38. It looks like they system broke down in that case.

          The  Air Force apparently dropped the ball on that one, and messed up what should have been routine reporting to the NICS database. I have to wonder how often this sort of thing happens. I know that some states are worse than others about sending timely updates, in part because the federal requirements for doing so were an unfunded mandate. Talk about something well worth shelling out the federal coin to pay for!

      • Lizzie Poppet (460 posts)
        Profile photo of Lizzie Poppet Donor

        26. Confiscated? By whom?

        Obviously not by the military, as that would absolutely require a constitutional amendment, doing away with posse comitatus. There’s another problem with using the military for this, but I’ll get to that later.

        By the police? I can’t see that working. There are fewer than 900K law enforcement personnel with arrest powers (that is, armed officers accredited to conduct such operations) nationwide. That’s all police, sheriff’s deputies, ATF, FBI, and so forth, in the entire country. That’s not even remotely enough to accomplish the task, which will meet with resistance. There are literally millions of such weapons in civilian hands, and approximately 90,000,000 civilian gun owners. If even a very modest percentage elect to resist this confiscation, law enforcement would be utterly overwhelmed.

        It’s also a huge stretch to assume that orders to conduct confiscations would be universally obeyed. Both the military and law enforcement lean very heavily towards the conservative end of the spectrum, and are (at the boots-on-the-ground level) overwhelmingly pro-gun. No way in hell such orders wouldn’t send some military and law enforcement folk over to the side of the resisters.

        Confiscation simply isn’t happening…

         

         

        • Gryneos (1862 posts)
          Profile photo of Gryneos

          28. Whether any of those examples could work or not,

          I would sill like to see it happen ;)

          "That's Jeff Vader, that is."__"I am not Jeff Vader, I am Darth Vader."__"What, Jeff Vader runs the Deathstar?"__"No, Jeff… No, I run the Deathstar."__"You Jeff Vader?"__"No, I'm Darth Vader!"__"Are you his brother? Can you get his autograph?"__"I can't get it… No, I'm… All right, I'm Jeff Vader! I'm Jeff Vader!"__"Can I have your autograph?"__"No, fuck off, or I'll kill you with a tray! Give me penne a la arabiata or you shall die. And you, and everyone in this canteen! Death by tray it shall be!" Eddie Izzard, Circle
          • Lizzie Poppet (460 posts)
            Profile photo of Lizzie Poppet Donor

            32. To see what happen? The confiscation or the attempt to do so?

            I’m ambivalent about the former (I don’t possess any such firearms, so it’s not my ox being gored), but the latter would basically be a ticket to bloodshed that makes out horrific homicide rate look like an episode of Mister Rogers Neighborhood.

            • Gryneos (1862 posts)
              Profile photo of Gryneos

              34. I'm not going to argue with you.

              I suspect you know exactly what I meant. You might also look at my other posts here so see what I’ve written on what is possible and what isn’t.

              "That's Jeff Vader, that is."__"I am not Jeff Vader, I am Darth Vader."__"What, Jeff Vader runs the Deathstar?"__"No, Jeff… No, I run the Deathstar."__"You Jeff Vader?"__"No, I'm Darth Vader!"__"Are you his brother? Can you get his autograph?"__"I can't get it… No, I'm… All right, I'm Jeff Vader! I'm Jeff Vader!"__"Can I have your autograph?"__"No, fuck off, or I'll kill you with a tray! Give me penne a la arabiata or you shall die. And you, and everyone in this canteen! Death by tray it shall be!" Eddie Izzard, Circle
              • Lizzie Poppet (460 posts)
                Profile photo of Lizzie Poppet Donor

                36. I wasn't looking to argue.

                I was asking, without the slightest disingenuousness, for a clarification.

                But whatever…

                • Gryneos (1862 posts)
                  Profile photo of Gryneos

                  39. Again,

                  read my other posts. Maybe then you might not have asked about what I know is a fantasy.

                  "That's Jeff Vader, that is."__"I am not Jeff Vader, I am Darth Vader."__"What, Jeff Vader runs the Deathstar?"__"No, Jeff… No, I run the Deathstar."__"You Jeff Vader?"__"No, I'm Darth Vader!"__"Are you his brother? Can you get his autograph?"__"I can't get it… No, I'm… All right, I'm Jeff Vader! I'm Jeff Vader!"__"Can I have your autograph?"__"No, fuck off, or I'll kill you with a tray! Give me penne a la arabiata or you shall die. And you, and everyone in this canteen! Death by tray it shall be!" Eddie Izzard, Circle
                  • Lizzie Poppet (460 posts)
                    Profile photo of Lizzie Poppet Donor

                    40. *sigh*

                    At this point, I see little value in doing so, as you’ve made it clear you’re disinterested in polite discussion of the matter. You have a nice life, m’kay?

    • duckpin (5360 posts)
      Profile photo of duckpin Donor

      2. Wonderful essay/memoir – thanks.

      For the past 1800 days in the USA, and average of 9 out of 10 days have seen a mass shooting event – mass shooting defined as 4 or more people being shot in the same crime. 1800 days, almost 1600 mass shootings. This society is unhinged. The political class is divorced from the will of the people.

      Military weapons, including  sniper rifles and armor piercing ammunition, don’t belong in the hands of citizens.

      "The justness of individual land right is  not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged "
      • Ohio Barbarian (5159 posts)
        Profile photo of Ohio Barbarian Donor

        4. The political class is divorced from the will of the people on most things. eom

        Ignorance is the foundation of tyranny.   
        • duckpin (5360 posts)
          Profile photo of duckpin Donor

          12. I agree and so far they are able to get away with it.

          This state of affairs  can go on forever unless concerted pushback occurs. It’s a tough situation.

          "The justness of individual land right is  not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged "
      • Lizzie Poppet (460 posts)
        Profile photo of Lizzie Poppet Donor

        33. Um…basically every hunting rifle made is a "sniper rifle."

        • duckpin (5360 posts)
          Profile photo of duckpin Donor

          42. No, I was thinking of the military rifle that can be accurate at over a mile

          and is of a different calibre than hunting rifles. It’s a different firearm altogether.

          "The justness of individual land right is  not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged "
          • Lizzie Poppet (460 posts)
            Profile photo of Lizzie Poppet Donor

            43. Something like a Barrett .50? Yeah, that's in a different class.

            • duckpin (5360 posts)
              Profile photo of duckpin Donor

              46. I didn't know the name, thanks, but I did read about it's capabilities

              and in was in the context of civilians wanting them available. (I do recall the .50 but I wasn’t confident enough with my memory to write it.)

              "The justness of individual land right is  not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged "
    • 99Forever (3505 posts)
      Profile photo of 99Forever Moderator

      6. I'm with you OB.

      They do have blood on their hands. Baby’s blood.

      They are just as evil as if they pulled the trigger themselves. If ever there was a case of, if you aren’t part of the solution, YOU ARE THE PROBLEM, this is it.

    • Deadpool (11030 posts)
      Profile photo of Deadpool Admin

      7. On the Daily Radical !

      Thank you. 

      • Ohio Barbarian (5159 posts)
        Profile photo of Ohio Barbarian Donor

        8. Thanks. President Whitmore would do the right thing, you know. If he can take

        out alien invasion ships, he can certainly take on the NRA.  

        Ignorance is the foundation of tyranny.   
    • hopemountain (2287 posts)
      Profile photo of hopemountain Donor

      11. hunting, yes. automatic mass murder military weapons,

      no.

      thanks, ohio barbarian – your common sense essay conveys my view as well.

      "economic and environmental justice is spiritual work." ~ tom b. k. goldtooth .... "question everything – including, organizations touting labels proclaiming stewardship of living things and high ideals when in truth, they fanatically practice the stewardship of exploitation, greed, and destruction."
    • D504 (110 posts)
      Profile photo of D504

      13. Not all Leftists agree with disarming.

      For starters, the very first thing needed is to de-militarize the police. The people are afraid of them.

      The people have been fed fear 24/7 for 16 years. The Dems have lost election after election due to this issue alone.

      Bernie has been against federal bans all along and for good reason. There is a reason for all of this violence.

      Don’t ask me what, but there seems to be something triggering this. Perhaps the lop-sided economy?

      Maybe the frustrations we all feel being powerless to stop the downhill tumble of morality?

      Who knows. Every shooter that has ‘gone-off’ has broken the law. More laws aren’t an answer.

      We have too many laws now, more won’t help.

      We need some organization that will defend ALL of our rights the way the NRA(asshats) defends the 2nd amendment.

      (morning ramble, sorry)

       

      • Eleanors38 (544 posts)
        Profile photo of Eleanors38 Donor

        22. George Orwell, notably…

        Many of your points are worth discussing, but discussing is next to impossible when the debate is inevitably couched in narrow gun control solutions aimed at addressing even more narrow “spectacular” events.

      • davidgmills (5669 posts)
        Profile photo of davidgmills Donor

        24. What about creating armories and requiring military grade weapons

        Being stored there.  You have to ratchet this down.  If access to military weapons are greatly reduced because they must be stored in armories, then maybe the police will not feel they need to match the high levels of civilian firepower.

        French Revolution; not secession.
      • Ohio Barbarian (5159 posts)
        Profile photo of Ohio Barbarian Donor

        45. Great ramble. Sorry for taking so long, sometimes I have to stay away from the

        home computer because I’m on one too much at work. I am all forward to demilitarizing the police, who no longer bear the faintest resemblance to the police I knew in my youth. Cops in body armor armed with automatic weapons and even armored vehicles. That never existed, not so very long ago. They had to call in the National Guard for the heavy duty stuff. Not anymore. Definitely not a democracy-friendly development.

        My point is it’s the availability of the guns and the magazines that is the problem. The only way to address that problem is through law, with enforcement. Or if you can’t quite achieve that, regulate them to death. If the Right-to-Lifers can succeed in practical terms as much as they do, why can’t the large majority of us succeed against the availability of military-grade weapons and, very importantly, magazines?

         

        Ignorance is the foundation of tyranny.   
        • D504 (110 posts)
          Profile photo of D504

          53. Not sure about the availability of guns, in general.

          ALL of my neighbors have guns, lots of them. I have a few.

          No one I know even bears the slightest resemblance to any profile of these shooters.

          They hunt, mostly. But not the nutcases we see waving them around at rallys or Wal-Mart.

          Since this state ‘repealed’ federal law, after the NRA started their shit, gun violence has gone up.

          More education is necessary. Some of the stories I hear are hair-raising.

          2 murders nearby yesterday a.m. Police are now useless as far as preventing this type of event.

          I suppose they always have been as thay are called after the event.

          That’s why I think more laws aren’t going to help anyone but the authorities and prisons.

          Maybe limit the number of weapons and ammo manufactured?

          Expensive insurance for gun-owners only limits ownership to the wealthy.

          As does raising taxes and prices of them(guns and ammo).

          Your last question, R2Lers have the churches and courts and republicans on their side.

          A big voting bloc, they have power. The NRA has power, somehow, though I know few people that support them.

          My neighbors, good people, like to blow things up. It’s fun and under control, fairly harmless.

          I live in the woods. Really.

          They see any attempt at any control as over-reach. They haven’t been involved yet, so they don’t care.

          They shouldn’t be expected to care, they’re poor and they vote republican.

    • disillusioned73 (497 posts)
      Profile photo of disillusioned73 Donor

      14. Another.. clap worthy post..

      What is going on around here today.. woot-woot!!!

      "Certainly there are some people in the Democratic Party who want to maintain the status quo. They would rather go down with the Titanic so long as they have first-class seats." - Bernie Sanders
    • carrotguy (230 posts)
      Profile photo of carrotguy Donor

      15. please do not ban semi auto rifles

      but it’s a slippery slope to consider what separates military style rifles from legitimate ranch files.   the recent texas shooting proves we would be better served with making the existing laws more effective.  Somewhere in this thread I saw that there were laws set up that prevented some fed agencies from sharing information that would allow a gun owner tracking system to work.    It would be very easy for a candidate to say that the varied landscape and terrain prevents any comprehensive semi-auto ban.   Furthermore, are the rw nuts correct (i think) when they say that gun violence kills more people.    I hear that statement sometimes but I do not yet care to research it.   In any case, we might do more good with an multiple gun owner/assault gun owner database which could be screened when someone is complained about showing bad behavior.   I wouldn’t like my privacy invaded,  but the feds love having there shit in our business so it’s all win for them

      • carrotguy (230 posts)
        Profile photo of carrotguy Donor

        19. sorry i was tied up with a few things at home – to clarify post above

        “are RW nuts correct when they say that handgun violence kills more people?”

        • Lizzie Poppet (460 posts)
          Profile photo of Lizzie Poppet Donor

          30. Yes…the vast, VAST majority of firearms homicides are committed with handguns.

          From 2013, the most recent year I could find quickly, using the FBI’s Criminal Justice Information Services data:

          Total firearms homicides: 8,454
          Handgun: 5,782
          Rifle: 285
          Shotgun: 308
          Firearm type not stated: 2,079

          Assuming  that the latter category would, if known, break out similarly to those in which the firearm was known, you can see that handguns are, overwhelmingly, the firearm most used in US homicide.

      • Ohio Barbarian (5159 posts)
        Profile photo of Ohio Barbarian Donor

        47. Sorry, but as far as I am concerned, neither you nor I should have the right to

        possess firearms without the authorities knowing about it. Driver’s licenses, license plates, titles, and even insurance policies are required to drive an internal combustion or electric driven vehicle. Any less for guns is insane. Any Constitutional interpretations notwithstanding. I really don’t give a fuck anymore.

        If the Right-to-Lifers don’t, and they’ve succeeded to a tremendous degree in accomplishing their goal in every pragmatic sense, then why should I be any less politically ruthless. I have had enough. Time to play hardball. No more Mr. Nice Guy, like that.

        Ignorance is the foundation of tyranny.   
    • dlegendary1 (1053 posts)
      Profile photo of dlegendary1 Donor

      16. Confiscation…Won't work. Regulation…ALL IN!

      The 2nd amendment is a pesky law that prevents confiscation. Plus the gun nuts will grab their arsenals for that very moment.

      Regulation could work though. If motherfuckers can restrict my right to vote by making me jump through hoops why not restrict the right to bear arms in the same manner?

      These mofos at the DNC can lick mah balls! I'm not voting or supporting their 3rd way goons.
      • Ohio Barbarian (5159 posts)
        Profile photo of Ohio Barbarian Donor

        48. That's worked for the Right to Lifers. Why not turn the tables on the really

        fanatical gun nuts? Most gun owners don’t have problems with registration, mandatory safety courses, or magazine restrictions. So the other shit can be regulated to death. We have all of these handy bureaucracies staffed with people who would really like to be given a chance to do their jobs for a good cause. I mean, they’re definitely not top 10% or anything like that. Why not let them under the right leadership?

        Ignorance is the foundation of tyranny.   
    • Eleanors38 (544 posts)
      Profile photo of Eleanors38 Donor

      17. An answer: Expressions like "it's just a start" engender iron opposition.

      They suggest an open-ended disposition based on prohibitionism. Sound policy identifies a problem and proposes actions designed to ameliorate the problem in measureable ways.  A wish list of bans, controls and confiscations is little different than a war on drugs approach.  The Democratic Party and its chief ally in this debate, MSM, have for many years trotted out the same controls and bans in the same way for years.  Net result?  Gun laws are more liberalized than ever. Clearly, both are out of touch.

      The types of firearms available to the American public under the Second Amendment has remained mostly unchanged for over a century.  Sure, better steels, alloys and composites; advanced CNC manufacturing and assembly — all these have merely incrementally improved firearms.  But they are the same categories.  Magazines?  Cheap stamped metal devices disgorged by the hundreds of thousands by warehouse technologies lingering for over a century, and hugely stockpiled.  Like the same basic types of guns, the proposals for controls are merely nibbling at the edges to no effect.

      What is it the controller/banner wants?  Judging from the dialogue here, in depleted uranium and other liberal sites, it seems to be the stopping the modern-era school spectaculars.  It certainly IS NOT to stop the nightly, melancholy murmur of the battlefields in Chicago, New 0rleans, and Baltimore.  It also IS NOT on the agenda of MSM.  And slaughter by vehicle or bomb has a short life on the playlist of any opinion-maker.  What IS on the agenda is to do SOMETHING about the hugely media-genic and celebrity-creating mass killings by guns, and using well-rutted gun talk.  In short, guns & gun control has long ago slipped into the dark reaches of culture war and all the symbolism it produces.

      One of the huge ironies seen the last few years is how MSM and Demo “leaders” self-check-mated themselves.  No one (myself included) could have expected what happened in the wake of Sandy Hook.  Oh, there were the usual calls for assault weapon bans, outlawing all guns — even confiscation — by the usual actors. But little reported was the phenomenon of massive lines around gun shows, the gross-lot purchasing of ammunition and the stock market boom of the attendant manufacturers.  In other words, the shibboleth that more guns and more gun availability would lead to more crime, was tested when MSM and Demo leaders realized THEY were accomplishing what a volume of California laws could not:  The “proliferation of firearms.”

      Frankly, gun controllers have no clear agenda that gains popular support, no grassoots organizing, no resonance with the population, and no imagination when it comes to any approach beyond gun bans and controls.

      This morning, some residents of Sutherland Springs refused to acknowledge the name of the murderer in an attempt to tone down his soon-to-be celebrated status.  Years before in Germany, after a mass killing there, T.V. news, after receiving complaints, quit the practice of posing what I call God Pics of the murderer, glaring down on news readers and the viewing public.  Could these divergent people be on to something? Should we be listening?  One thing for sure:   Shaming by using expressions like “baby’s blood is on their hands” WILL NOT work, except perhaps to make the lines at gun shows grow longer.

      • carrotguy (230 posts)
        Profile photo of carrotguy Donor

        20. good points

        I have said before that any comprehensive anti-gun violence bill will have a considerable amount of focus on poor areas in large cities – kids need heroes and extracurricular activities.   anything to facilitate early ID and placement into TAG programs when appropriate to get them the hell out of some of those areas might yield a few positive results.   it’s probably cheaper than prisons.   legalize most drugs and take every DEA or vice cop and move their job to the equivalent of a social worker for anyone caught in the cycle of addiction.

      • Ohio Barbarian (5159 posts)
        Profile photo of Ohio Barbarian Donor

        49. It is the availability of weapons of war that is the problem, in my view. If I

        offend anyone by saying if they support politicians or corporations who profit from their availability then they have blood on their hands, I don’t give a fuck. I have had enough, and I know damned well I’m not the only one. I won’t shut up, either.

        Ignorance is the foundation of tyranny.   
        • Eleanors38 (544 posts)
          Profile photo of Eleanors38 Donor

          58. Today, weapons of war are full-auto. Those weapons are hard to get…

          No full auto weapon made before 1986 can be legally purchased.  This has driven the price of such arms sky-high (usually $10,000 and).  Further, one must pay a tax of $200, secure letters from the highest LEO within the purchaser’s legal jurisdiction testifying to the fitness of the purchaser, and agree to submit to an ATF search of the residence at any time without due process, and have the weapon serviced only by a smith cerified to perform work on semi-autos.  This is why there are only about two hundrd housand owners of full-autos.

          It needs to be pointed out the as few as two (2) civilians have been killed by these weapons in the last several decades (one of these was an accident).  The MSM seems to have settled on the expression “assault-style rifle” to describe (I guess) semi-auto rifles painted in black, and without full homogeneous stocks, and with features and controls sticking out everywhere.  These are considered obsolete as weapons of war because they do not have the feature of full auto.

          To paraphrase the expression “At one time all classical music was new,” “At one time virtually all firearms were military.” That includes the walnut, bolt-action, blue steeled deer rifle I used Friday to kill a deer.

          I certainly don’t expect you to shut up.

      • Ohio Barbarian (5159 posts)
        Profile photo of Ohio Barbarian Donor

        51. I am not ignoring you. I am thinking about it. Got other priorities, like family

        and shit, but I’ll get back to you.

        Ignorance is the foundation of tyranny.   
    • Iwillnevergiveup (687 posts)
      Profile photo of Iwillnevergiveup

      18. Remember when we were talking litmus tests?

      How cool to have one test for support of Medicare for All and one for ending the NRA.

      Come to think of it, they’re life and death issues in that order.

      Not all litmus tests are bad.

      We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.     Native American Proverb
      • Eleanors38 (544 posts)
        Profile photo of Eleanors38 Donor

        21. There are other "gun rights" groups who would support "ending" the NRA.

    • Lizzie Poppet (460 posts)
      Profile photo of Lizzie Poppet Donor

      41. Confiscation simply isn’t happening…

      Let me try this again, since I previously responded to what turned out to be the wrong poster…

      ——————————————

      Confiscated? By whom?
      Obviously not by the military, as that would absolutely require a constitutional amendment, doing away with posse comitatus. There’s another problem with using the military for this, but I’ll get to that later.

      By the police? I can’t see that working. There are fewer than 900K law enforcement personnel with arrest powers (that is, armed officers accredited to conduct such operations) nationwide. That’s all police, sheriff’s deputies, ATF, FBI, and so forth, in the entire country. That’s not even remotely enough to accomplish the task, which will meet with resistance. There are literally millions of such weapons in civilian hands, and approximately 90,000,000 civilian gun owners. If even a very modest percentage elect to resist this confiscation, law enforcement would be utterly overwhelmed.

      It’s also a huge stretch to assume that orders to conduct confiscations would be universally obeyed. Both the military and law enforcement lean very heavily towards the conservative end of the spectrum, and are (at the boots-on-the-ground level) overwhelmingly pro-gun. No way in hell such orders wouldn’t send some military and law enforcement folk over to the side of the resisters.

      Confiscation simply isn’t happening…

       

      • Ohio Barbarian (5159 posts)
        Profile photo of Ohio Barbarian Donor

        50. Right now, I don't see why I should care for the Constitution anymore than the

        Right to Lifers do on another issue. Interpretation is all as far as the Constitution is concerned, anyway. We need to get people in power who interpret the Constitution as we do, as most of us probably do anyway, by whatever it takes. If the Right to Lifers can do it, we certainly can, and we don’t even have to bomb anything.

        Ignorance is the foundation of tyranny.   
        • Lizzie Poppet (460 posts)
          Profile photo of Lizzie Poppet Donor

          54. Posse Comitatus leaves little (if any) room for interpretation.

          But even if it were thrown out and the military ordered to conduct confiscations, all that would do is fragment the military. I can’t state strongly enough that the increasingly-conservative, strongly pro-gun military would not receive such orders well. While many would undoubtedly obey such orders, many would not. This is a recipe for utter disaster.

          • Ohio Barbarian (5159 posts)
            Profile photo of Ohio Barbarian Donor

            55. Utter disaster may be unavoidable anyway, but if civil war comes, I don't

            think it will be over this issue. Oh, and the military isn’t as conservative as most people on the left tend to think. According to the Military Times, Trump probably didn’t even get a majority of their votes a year ago. Probably a third of them voted for Gary Johnson in a rejection of both corporate party and prowar candidates.

            Ignorance is the foundation of tyranny.   
            • Lizzie Poppet (460 posts)
              Profile photo of Lizzie Poppet Donor

              56. Whether they voted for Trump of Johnson isn't really germane tothis matter.

              Neither choice exactly indicates an anti-gun leaning, does it? ;)

              In any case, I consider a breakup of the nation as currently constituted is inevitable (and not all that far away). I do, however, hold out hope this can be managed without bloodshed.  Of course, I’m a Cascadian secessionist, so I don’t exactly look upon this unfavorably.

              • Ohio Barbarian (5159 posts)
                Profile photo of Ohio Barbarian Donor

                57. You and my cousins in Sandy, Oregon.

                Can’t say as I blame you. :lol:

                Ignorance is the foundation of tyranny.   
          • Eleanors38 (544 posts)
            Profile photo of Eleanors38 Donor

            59. GW Bush and the Congress in the wake of Katrina overwhelmingly voted to

            repeal posse comitatus. Then within months Congress reversed itself.  Little said about this back-burner preparation to institute the Unitary Presidency.

            Is that your cat?