Andrew Yang: Alaska now has open primaries and ranked choice voting!!

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    • #379023
      Charles
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      • Total Posts: 1,660

       

      Bernie: "Not Me. Us"

    • #379205
      eridani
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      • Total Posts: 10,213

      Without auditing, no result can be trusted.

      Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

      • #379306
        Charles
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,660

        @eridani

        So I can’t say with absolute certainty that an RCV hand audit recount is without flaws.

        Still Maine did have a hand recount in 2018 and it appears to have been completed without much controversy in regards to the recount itself:

         

        Video: Recount in Maine’s 2nd Congressional District election is underway

        After losing by more than 3,500 votes in the nation’s first ranked-choice election, U.S. Rep. Bruce Poliquin asked for a hand recount

        Posted 

        A hand recount in the nation’s first ranked-choice election for a seat in the U.S. Congress began Thursday morning in Augusta.

        Workers from the Maine Secretary of State’s Office gathered in a converted conference room and started the arduous task of hand counting 300,000 ballots in a race that saw Democratic challenger Jared Golden beat incumbent Republican Bruce Poliquin by about 3,500 votes.

        The process, if it goes until completed, could take as long as four weeks. Poliquin asked for the recount on Monday, Nov. 26 after Golden was declared the winner of the race.

        The ranked-choice election, the result of a ballot box law passed by Maine voters in 2016 and affirmed in June when voters blocked its repeal, is unprecedented in U.S. history – as is the recount itself…

        Read more:

        https://www.pressherald.com/2018/12/06/recount-in-maines-2nd-congressional-district-election-starts-today/

         

         

        Federal Judge Denies Poliquin’s Challenge To Maine’s Ranked-Choice Voting Law

        DEC 13, 2018

         

        A federal judge has denied Republican U.S. Rep. Bruce Poliquin’s legal challenge to Maine’s ranked-choice voting law and his request to invalidate the runoff he lost to Democrat Jared Golden.

        Judge Lance Walker’s 30-page ruling was thorough and potentially devastating to Poliquin and Maine Republicans’ quest to rid Maine of an election system that allows voters to rank candidates for federal office in order of preference.

        Not only did Walker disagree with the array of constitutional claims Poliquin’s attorneys made against the law, but he also declined to grant Poliquin’s request to order a new election in Maine’s 2nd Congressional District race.

        ~cut~

        Breed also says Poliquin’s chances of reversing the election outcome through the hand recount currently underway are slim. He and Dunlap say there have been only minor fluctuations in Golden’s lead.

        “I would expect at this point nothing to change,” Breed says…

        Read more:

        https://www.mainepublic.org/post/federal-judge-denies-poliquins-challenge-maines-ranked-choice-voting-law

         

         

         

        Here’s some more information on Hand Recounts from Fair Vote:

         

         

        Recounts

        In most places, recounts are rare. When they are needed, they are a failsafe and ensurance that the candidate with the most eligible votes wins the election. Under RCV, the need for recounts will still generally be rare, and they can be administered in a way that will remain fair to all parties and comparable in time to recounts under non-RCV elections.

        Critically, each ballot will only require a single review in determining for whom it should count in all but the most unusual circumstances. Although an initial ranked choice voting count is conducted through multiple rounds of counting, the recount generally will not need multiple rounds. That’s because the order in which lower-performing candidates are eliminated doesn’t change the outcome for a close second-place finisher. In an RCV recount, the rankings for candidates placing below the candidate requesting the recount can be ignored, and each ballot should take a single review to determining for whom it should count. The top candidates are the only ones with a chance to win, so rankings for all other candidates can simply be ignored, as if those candidates have already been defeated. Ballots can be sorted based only on which of those top candidates, if any, the ballot supports, and this process will generally conclude the recount.

        For more detail on best practices for recounts when requested by candidates, download as a pdf our memo on best practices for conducting a statewide hand-recount with RCV.

        Source:

        https://www.fairvote.org/audits_and_recounts

         

        So it appears that hand recounts are being done in RCV based elections and aren’t being challenged as to the legitimacy. From what I have read it is more time consuming to do than a normal recount but with the proper procedures in place these recounts are transparent and accurate.

         

        The Vermont chapter League of Women Voters have looked into the Pros and Cons of RCV. They concluded that RCV does increase costs and hand recounts are more complex:

        The ballots and the counting of the ballots will be more expensive – It either requires a computer system, or is labor intensive to count by hand, with risk of errors.  But security and integrity of our elections will require having a “paper trail” so that we can do recounts, and know the results are valid.

        https://my.lwv.org/vermont/article/pros-and-cons-instant-runoff-ranked-choice-voting

         

         

        Again. I’m obviously no expert. It does appear that both the total cost and recount costs are more for RCV as well. And the hand counts are more complex. So there are pros and cons. The biggest plus for me is I could vote for the person I truly want without being as concerned about the candidate I like the least winning.

        The Green Party supports the Ranked Choice Voting concept very strongly. Jill Stein, Howie Hawkins, and many others have been advocating for it this last election.

         

         

         

         

        So for now I am in favor of seeing the use of RCV use expand in states and hopefully becoming main stream. If there are problems that are exposed in it’s use I would most likely change my mind. At this point I’m not seeing any major problems though.

        Bernie: "Not Me. Us"

        • #379536
          eridani
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 10,213

          No election can be considered valid unless the results are audited.  In King County, WA votes are tallied by scanning paper ballots.  Random hand count audits are mandatory.  They choose a couple of races and hand count the paper ballots for those races.  Given that King county has 30+ cites, parts of 3 congressional districts, all or parts of 17 state legislative districts,  not to mention school board and utility districts, hand count audits of RCV would be impossible.

          However, the process could be simplified by limiting RCV to certain offices like president, governor, Congress, for example.  WA state had dozens of gubernatorial candidates, but eliminating also-rans right away might simplify the process enough to be accurate.  I’m still trying to imagine being able to stay alert long enough to be accurate, but having some trouble here.

          Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

    • #379350
      doh1304
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,705

      where a “disciplined” party can sabotage non establishment candidates by limiting the number of candidates? CA’s system has been a total failure.

    • #379361
      Charles
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,660

      @doh1304

      I’m not real familiar with Open Primaries but did find some info. Hope this helps.

       

      Following Yes on 2, all eligible voters would use a single unified primary ballot in which they can select whichever candidate they prefer best in each race — regardless of party — and the top four vote-getters will advance to the general election. Every state-funded election should be open to all voters. It’s that simple. That small change to our primary system will boost turnout and provide all Alaskan voters with more choices.

      https://alaskansforbetterelections.com/about/open-primaries/

       

      Bernie: "Not Me. Us"

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