ANTIFA – Too good to be true or “Who was that masked man that came to save the day?”

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    • #324183
      Thom Paine
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 244

      We are told that AntiFa isn’t a group but a concept. But they have a manifesto*. Where did that come from? Who all agreed to it?   When they show up at a rally, is it a coincidence or does someone make some calls from a list? A group list?

      Cornell West and others on the left have said that they feel safer when protesting with AntiFa present. Why? Do they think that AntiFa will defend them against violence? With violence if necessary? This is counter to the principles of peaceful protesting. Mahatma Gandhi and MLK Jr. would not want a masked group using violence to defend protesters as most likely it would make things worse. The presence of AntiFa might antagonize the white supremacists and police into precipitating more violence.

      Trump tried to blame the recent violence of the protests on AntiFa but it did’t work, because there was no presence of AntiFa. Had they been there, they would have been blamed for destroying property.

      Another thing is that we’ve seen cases where police have infiltrated protester groups with the intent of stirring up trouble. And we know the FBI couldn’t resist. During the Red Scare it was said that 25% of American communists were undercover FBI agents.

      When a group of AntiFa people show up with masks on to a protest, you don’t know who they are, or what their real motives are.

      *Recently published:   ”TO: ALL MEDIA PUBLIC STATEMENT FROM “ANTIFA” IN RESPONSE TO THE THREATS ISSUED BY UNITED STATES PRESIDENT DONALD J. TRUMP”

      https://www.reddit.com/r/2ALiberals/comments/gvkiem/antifa_has_made_a_statement/

       

    • #324186
      NV Wino
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 5,139

      They do nothing but stir up trouble.

      “As we act, let us not become the evil that we deplore.” Barbara Lee
      “Politicians and pro athletes: The only people who still get paid when they lose.” William Rivers Pitt

      • #324318
        Cold Mountain Trail
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 8,751

        got some evidence?

        i’ve never seen any reportage of anyone who ’caused trouble’ & said (or wrote) ‘Yeah, i’m antifa’

        all i’ve seen is right wingers calling others antifa, or videos of people attacking someone or some group of people the attackers *claimed* was ‘antifa’

        and this jackoff:

        Andy Cuong Ngô is an American conservative social media personality and journalist best known for covering street protests in Portland, Oregon. He is editor at large of The Post Millennial, a Canadian conservative news website. Ngo received national attention in June 2019 when he was assaulted by unidentified assailants who appeared to be antifa protesters while covering a counter protest to a Proud Boys march in Portland, and later due to alleged connections with the far-right groups Patriot Prayer and Proud Boys… Ngo has labelled several journalists, including Shane Burley and Alexander Reid Ross, as “antifa ideologues”.  According to Voxs Zack Beauchamp, Ngo has doxed at least one political activist by publishing her full name.  He has also been accused of using selectively edited videos to paint antifa activists as violent, and to underplay the violence of the far-right.

        Later that year, a video of Ngo surfaced where he is seen laughing, while standing next to the members of the far-right group planning the attack on anti-fascist patrons at the bar. He later followed the group to the bar where they allegedly attacked the patrons…

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Ngo

         

        • #324427
          PolecatHollerer
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 1,084

          .

          If you give a man enough rope, it will be six inches too short. This is not the nature of rope- it is the nature of man.

    • #324210
      Voltairine
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,797

      Referred to Redneck Revolt specifically:

      Last night, Dr. Cornel West and several local faith leaders called for a prayer meeting at the St. Paul’s Memorial Church in Charlottesville. Redneck Revolt members were on-hand to assist with security, when word was received that the 300+ white supremacists were marching with torches across the University of Virginia campus towards the church. Across the street from the church, the fascist march encountered several anti-fascist and student counter-protestors, and a skirmish erupted. Redneck Revolt members assisted with escorting folks from the church to their cars, and everyone was evacuated safely.
      https://www.redneckrevolt.org/single-post/REPORTBACK-CHARLOTTESVILLE

      From what I’ve understood and seen, members of Redneck Revolt don’t cover their faces, and their open carry presence is a preventive policy in situations where pro-neonazi police cannot be expected to guarantee safety of people demonstrating against fascism and racism. Their role and purpose resembles in this respect similar function of Black Panthers.

      The author of the “manifesto” self-identifies as founder of FB-group ‘Antifa’. If you agree with the text, you agree; if you don’t you don’t. I didn’t read the whole of it so I have no opinion. Demonstrations are called as demonstrations generally are called: some activist group makes a call, decides time and place and spreads the information on social media, word of mouth etc. Those who want to come, come.

      You are confusing Antifa – a flag, a meme, a collection of various tactics to prevent neonazi organizing and recruiting and directly threatening public safety – with black block, which is one tactic among many, unarmed and often wearing mask, with main purpose of challenging police control of public spaces.

      Spreading false information and hostile propaganda on behalf of police etc. oppression mechanisms to create mistrust and weaken solidarity is what puts safety of people at risk and empowers further the violent oppression mechanisms and their cop riots.

      Aloha!

      • #324233
        Thom Paine
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 244

        If you have armed people protecting you, then they must be willing to use the arms for your protection.  Would they use these arms to protect you from police brutality?   Seems once arms are used to “defend” you will have a civil war.

        The idea of having people defending peaceful protesters is completely counter to the concept of peaceful demonstrations.  The police would love nothing more than to see people fight back.  They are well equipped and train for just that kind of thing.  We need to change the system to get the police to defend people and not the property of the wealthy.

        Sorry but I didn’t understand your last statement.

        • #324308
          Voltairine
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 1,797

          AFAIK state laws vary in this, but there’s plenty of cases where killing a cop has been considered legal self-defense.  Constitution mentions ordered militia, but not cops, police force started to develop as institution about 50 years after. That’s about where my legal expertise ends, except that it’s clear that the owning class and their hired thugs don’t really give a shit about letter and spirit of law, except when they have written the law and can use it to loot people of their wealth.

          Having people defending peaceful protestors is what the professing class professes cops are supposed to do and doing, but of course we know that’s not how things go in reality. Cops are on the side of neonazi groups, who organize to violently dominate and control streets and communities.  So, especially when you organize counter demonstrations against neonazi events, preparing also for self-defense in orderly way generally helps to maintain event more peaceful and to avoid casualties.

          As we have seen and know, police don’t need excuses to start a violent cop riot against peaceful people, or if they need, they are capable of creating excuses by false flag covert operations. There’s very long way from organizing lawful militia for community self-defense to instigating and starting an armed rebellion, which nobody in their right mind is doing. Boogaloos etc. nutters are not in their right mind.

           

          We need to change the system to get the police to defend people and not the property of the wealthy.

           

          Agreed. Property destruction with well chosen targets can be a useful tactic towards that end, as the owning class cares only about property, not about people whom they consider just a form of property – or enemy, when they refuse their status as property and obedient commodity. Of course property destruction as a tactic is also in need of constant and careful self-criticism and analysis.

           

          Aloha!

    • #324322
      Earthartist
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 764

      The myth of evil antifa is just that and Trump is adding to it. There is no leader and they do not have guns. They wear face coverings for good reason cops will track you and Harass or kill you, the fbi will use facial recognition. Back in the day of the civil rights movement it was a bit more work so they went after and killed or jailed the leaders .  Black block more organized in their block help prevent distractions and protect peaceful protestors when they are at their best.  Cops blame everything possible on these 2 groups, while cops work hand and glove with racists, giving them information telling when they are going to use poisonous gas or pepper bullets. Pick your enemy carefully. Mean time when I am on the streets I feel safer knowing who has my back and it sure as hell ain’t the cops

      Earthartist

    • #324358
      eridani
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 5,674

      Antifa is neither terrorist nor an organization.

      Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

    • #324361
      The Red Menace
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,080

      Cornell West and others on the left have said that they feel safer when protesting with AntiFa present. Why? Do they think that AntiFa will defend them against violence? With violence if necessary? This is counter to the principles of peaceful protesting. Mahatma Gandhi and MLK Jr. would not want a masked group using violence to defend protesters as most likely it would make things worse.

      Charles Cobb Jr. has a book out titled “This Nonviolent Stuff’ll Get You Killed” which describes the use of guns during the American Freedom movement, and how armed men and women were in fact instrumental to the protection of nonviolent activists in the deep south and elsewhere. A casual examination of India’s independence movement will reveal that armed insurrection was not just integral to the movement but actually the main impetus towards results; Gandhi making salt didn’t make the British run away, but the threat of several million Indians rising up at a time when the United Kingdom had zero resources to stop them sure did!

      Nonviolent protest must exist as a counterpart to violent protest. It HAS to have the threat of “if not this, then that.” There is no requirement for nonviolent protesters to throw their lives away, either. It’s not pacifism, it’s not ahisma, it’s a tactic in a bigger toolbox.

    • #324401
      Thom Paine
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 244

      I appreciate the responses but no one has really addressed the question at least in my mind.  Should we stick to peaceful demonstrations with the risk of getting our heads bashed in or should we accept the protection of a non-group like Antifa ?  I if we choose AntiFa should they be armed?  And if we start down that road won’t it just lead to civil war?

      And when AntiFa shows up, do we trust that they aren’t white supremacists trying to stir up trouble?  Since they aren’t a group, anyone can show up claiming to be AntiFa.

       

      • #324442
        The Red Menace
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        • Total Posts: 1,080

        Should we stick to peaceful demonstrations with the risk of getting our heads bashed in or  (…)

        These are not conflicting ideas. It’s not a binary choice. You can have peaceful demonstrations and still have people ready to jump in to protect the peaceful demonstrators. You can have nonviolent protest, but still allow that violence is a tool and an option. The idea that one cancels hte other somehow is a false dichotomy.

        should we accept the protection of a non-group like Antifa

        You say like this is some sort of coordinated thing. Like you have the ability to ban antifascists from protesting fascism. like you have any authority to tell someone to not intervene in you getting your ass kicked. Sorry, you don’t. I’m not going to let you get your head crushed if i can stop that from happening, even if i have to hit someone else to stop that. If that upsets you, then you’re just going to have to be upset.

        if we choose AntiFa

        What, like from a catalogue? I think the reason you’re not getting answers (or at least not the answers you want) is because either you don’t know what you’re talking about, or you’re really bad at conveying it.

        should they be armed

        Well so far they haven’t been. I mean discounting fists and random throwable things. But this really isn’t a question of antifa, but the protests in general. because right now there are armed protesters, such as the new Panther Party. And funny thing, none of them have gotten their shit kicked in by rabid cops. Could just be happenstance, y’know, correlation doesn’t equal causation. but it still seems a steady trend.

        And if we start down that road won’t it just lead to civil war?

        Nope.

        And when AntiFa shows up, do we trust that they aren’t white supremacists trying to stir up trouble?

        I’m sorry did you miss the fact that the protests are about white supremacist cops murderign nonwhite people? Like, hold up here buddy. You ARE aware of this right, that this is the entire point of these protests?

        Since they aren’t a group, anyone can show up claiming to be AntiFa.

        The same is true for anyone else though, so why the breathless panic specifically about antifascists… while ignoring the actual violent white supremacists that the protests are about in the first place?

    • #324444
      Voltairine
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,797

      Situational decisions between variety of tactics depend on situation, there’s no one size fit all. But only through solidarity can we realize that we are the power, not the hired thugs and mercenaries that protect the property of the owning class, not their parasitic masters.

      To avoid not only civil war but all war we need to build structures of solidarity and mutual aid that are not based on systemic violence. On global scale.

      Aloha!

    • #324526
      Thom Paine
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 244

      Someone suggested above that I might not know what I am talking about. Let me be very clear, I often don’t know what I am talking about and that’s why I look for honest discussions. I have my opinions and I like to hear other opinions.

      I am not anti-anti-fascist. I think we must take the move toward fascism very seriously. But I think that the entity of AntiFa may cause more harm than good.

      To what extent do peaceful protesters want AntiFa to go to, in our name, to defend us? Would we be comfortable if they came with weapons? Do we want them to physically confront the police?

      In the last week we’ve seen an unbelievable number of protests with brutal violence against the demonstrators. There may have been some, but I didn’t hear of any AntiFa participation. If AntiFa had been present to defend the demonstrators, would the outcomes have been better? I don’t think so. Once peaceful protesters engage in violence, even in defense, the brutality of the police is justified and the change that that will bring will be counter to what we need.

      Trump wanted to blame the violence on AntiFa but it rang hollow because they weren’t present.

      Anyone can show up claiming to be AntiFa. It wouldn’t surprise me to see white supremacists and/or undercover police show up to stir up trouble in the name of AntiFa. We’ve seen this week where white supremacists have gone online claiming to be AntiFa trying to incite violence.

    • #325099
      Thom Paine
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 244

      I am kicking this because I’d like to get more input for this subject.  AntiFa or no AntiFa?

    • #325146
      rudycantfail
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 206

      for their propaganda campaign. There is very little, if any, upside. It’s a simple calculation; they do more harm than good and aren’t even needed.

      • #325172
        Voltairine
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        • Total Posts: 1,797
        • #325473
          Thom Paine
          Moderator
          • Total Posts: 244

          Not sure what your point is.   What do you expect of AntiFa?   Should they put themselves between police and demonstrators?  That’s where they are needed.  The fascists want to blame AntiFa for the violence that they themselves promote.  Without the presence of AntiFa, that blame fall empty.  Why do we need AntiFa?

          • #325483
            Ohio Barbarian
            Moderator
            • Total Posts: 14,449

            @thompaine According to Cornel West, whom I am inclined to believe, Antifa saved him and others from injury by neo-Nazis in Charlottesville, because the police were doing nothing to control the Confederate flag-waving brutes.

            Recent events are between citizens and police. All Antifa showing up would accomplish would be to get themselves beaten up by the cops and then prosecuted by the Trump Administration, and to provide a distraction from the real problems of police racism and equal opportunity thuggery at protests demanding an end to the violent cults our police have become.

            They’re smart enough to stay away, or at least not to announce themselves. IOW, they’re a lot more politically savvy than the cops. Probably smarter, too. Anarchists can be educated people.

            It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

            Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

            • #325516
              Thom Paine
              Moderator
              • Total Posts: 244

              I greatly respect Cornel West, but we don’t know what would have happened if AntiFa hadn’t been present. Did the neo-nazi’s back down because of AntiFa’s presence? Doesn’t sound like them.

              It’s my opinion that MLK Jr. would tell us that to fight back would be disastrous. It would justify the brutality.

              We are looking today at the possibility of reforms only because the one-sided brutality is obvious. Had AntiFa been there, the police and the Powers That Rule would use them as their justification.

              The Powers That Rule want nothing better than for us to fight back, justifying their clamping down harder on our rights.

              We’ve seen evidence that police have infiltrated protest organizations with the intent to cause disruptions to justify a heavy handed crack-down by the police.

              Having a masked man to protect us sounds too good to be true, and I think it is.

          • #325539
            Voltairine
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 1,797

            Again, you confuse Antifa with Black Block or First Line tactics which physically confront cops during demonstrations and contest their control of public space.

            Antifa uses variety of methods to prevent organization and recruitment by fascist organizations: online work, social work, counterdemonstrations.

            Also, John Brown Gun Clubs / Redneck Revolt to which Cornell West referred is not same as Antifa. Leftie/anarchist 2A groups.

            Aloha!

            • #325552
              Ohio Barbarian
              Moderator
              • Total Posts: 14,449

              I’m an anti-Fascist. Does that make me Antifa? What’s the difference between an anti-Fascist like me and the people on the streets who were carrying Antifa banners? Is there any?

              I really don’t know enough about them to say, and I’m definitely not going to take my government’s word for it. @voltairine

              It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

              Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

              • #325568
                Voltairine
                Participant
                • Total Posts: 1,797

                Yeah, cool. The RW meme for their “good enemy”,  which also much of the Liberal MSM keeps propagating, has little to do with actual reality, but also some mistakes made have given RW much propaganda ammo.

                A movement, a loose network of local groups defined by common goal of opposing fascist organizing, with some historical symbols and traditions. Most of the work is informational, keeping up to date about various nazi groups, identifying their members, following their actions, spreading the info other parts of society to make organizing harder. I’ve been critical of American Antifa in constructive sense, to get much much better at what their job is, which is actually very important to get done is ways that really work in practice and are not counterproductive. Mostly young people doing their learning, so it’s getting better.

                The difference between having anti-fascist opinion and doing anti-fascist activism is just that, difference between opinion and activism. Of course opinions matter, but it doesn’t seem very plausible that opinions alone prevent fascist organizing and recruiting and keep communities and society at large safe. And on the other hand effective activism ain’t easy.

                Aloha!

        • #325558
          rudycantfail
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 206

          These protests are not Antifa. Approval and sympathy for protests against police brutality of black people and Americans in general has jumped 26% in the last 5 years, according to Forbes. That’s due in large part to the unmistakable images of police brutalizing unarmed Americans exercising their 1st Amendment rights. Even the majority of Republicans now approve. This is progress. We don’t need a bunch of armed twenty somethings running around fucking up the winning narrative. What’s the point when Antifa can’t even protect protesters from the cops anyway?

          The anti fascist work being done is by the protesters. May their skulls have not been cracked in vain.

          • #325569
            Voltairine
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 1,797

            Are you too saying that fascist groups organizing, recruiting and actively practicing racist violence does not require grass roots anti-fascist activism in any form? Leave that to cops? Well, whaddyaknow, how do you actually tell apart cops from other fascist groups?

            It’s one thing to offer constructive criticism to anti-fascist activism, to discuss what works and what not for our common goal. It’s whole other thing to categorically condemn all activism and declare that antifa etc. is simply not needed.

            Aloha!

    • #325168
      mrdmk
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,830

      One of the first comprehensive surveys of Israeli training of US local and federal law enforcement officials.

      By Max Blumenthal

      In October, the Alameda County Sheriff’s Department turned parts of the campus of the University of California in Berkeley into an urban battlefield. The occasion was Urban Shield 2011, an annual SWAT team exposition organized to promote “mutual response,” collaboration and competition between heavily militarized police strike forces representing law enforcement departments across the United States and foreign nations.

      At the time, the Alameda County Sheriff’s Department was preparing for an imminent confrontation with the nascent “Occupy” movement that had set up camp in downtown Oakland, and would demonstrate the brunt of its repressive capacity against the demonstrators a month later when it attacked the encampment with teargas and rubber bullet rounds, leaving an Iraq war veteran in critical condition and dozens injured. According to Police Magazine, a law enforcement trade publication, “Law enforcement agencies responding to…Occupy protesters in northern California credit Urban Shield for their effective teamwork.”

      Training alongside the American police departments at Urban Shield was the Yamam, an Israeli Border Police unit that claims to specialize in “counter-terror” operations but is better known for its extra-judicial assassinations of Palestinian militant leaders and long record of repression and abuses in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip. Urban Shield also featured a unit from the military of Bahrain, which had just crushed a largely non-violent democratic uprising by opening fire on protest camps and arresting wounded demonstrators when they attempted to enter hospitals. While the involvement of Bahraini soldiers in the drills was a novel phenomenon, the presence of quasi-military Israeli police – whose participation in Urban Shield was not reported anywhere in US media – reflected a disturbing but all-too-common feature of the post-9/11 American security landscape.

      The Israelification of America’s security apparatus, recently unleashed in full force against the Occupy Wall Street Movement, has taken place at every level of law enforcement, and in areas that have yet to be exposed. The phenomenon has been documented in bits and pieces, through occasional news reports that typically highlight Israel’s national security prowess without examining the problematic nature of working with a country accused of grave human rights abuses. But it has never been the subject of a national discussion. And collaboration between American and Israeli cops is just the tip of the iceberg.

      LINK–The GrayZone, From Occupation to ‘Occupy’: The Israelification of American domestic security

      The OWS movement (fyi which is not dead) took a beating in the end. It lasted for months, people got permits for daily marches, there was no looting and most of all, there was no organization. It was the definition of a shared idea.

      Antifa if also a movement without an organization. Some people just cannot wrap their heads around that fact. When OWS was dispersed in the most violent matter that changed many people thinking about violence. Personally, I have been to many non-violent protest including OWS. But the violence that took place on OWS just pissed off some people. They are going to for the eye for an eye which in my mind the whole world may become blind. They are not going to take violence from cops, they are not going take violence from people protected by cops. They are sick and tried of restraint on one side and and full blown Rambo on the other. That is that.

      If you cannot dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit WC Fields

      • #325470
        Thom Paine
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 244

        Thank you for responding.   I am one of those that can’t get my head around AntiFa and I have been trying to find someone that might help me.  I strongly support peaceful protests but believe that once they start defending themselves with violence the message will be lost.  I think both Gandhi and MLK Jr. understood that.   I get it that it’s not a “group” but they have a flag and someone wrote a manifesto representing them to Trump.

        If they were effective why haven’t we seen them in the last week between the police and the protestors?   And how far do we want them to go to defend us?  What would happen if they showed up with weapons?  Anyone can show up with a mask and claim to be AntiFa, even Proud Boys or undercover police or the FBI, and who knows their intentions?  IMHO I think they are more trouble than they are worth.

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