• Update on weirdness

    Update on site issues: (1. replies now need a title *and* something in the message box, 2. certain links are causing strange pop-ups on Apple devices, and 3. Some folks can't type anything into the text box.) Basically, a series of unfortunate events set us back on testing. We'll get to it as soon as we can, and hopefully things can get fixed by this weekend if not before.  More info: https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/site-problems-more-info/

Home Main Forums General Discussion Are You A Real Progressive Or A Fauxgressive?

  • senz (5246 posts)
    Profile photo of senz Donor

    Are You A Real Progressive Or A Fauxgressive?

    Like it or not, there’s a great divide in America’s political left, and you’re either on one side or the other.  —  Caitlin Johnstone  Newslogue  12 Jan 2017

     

    A great divide was exposed on America’s political left this past election cycle. We haven’t quite figured out how to talk about it yet, but it’s there. Now that Clinton and Sanders are out of the election picture it won’t make much sense going forward to talk about it in terms of the Hillary camp vs. the Bernie camp, and framing it as progressives vs. liberals doesn’t really work either since people get pedantic about the word “liberal” and a lot of the most adamant Hillary supporters identified strongly as progressives. Lately I’ve taken to labeling the divide as being between actual progressives fighting for an actual progressive agenda, and “fauxgressives” who, for whatever reason, are content to support political power structures that hold a public position of progressivism in order to secure support for their private position of rampant corporatism.

    1. Progressivism benefits the people; fauxgressivism benefits the oligarchy.

     

    2. Progressives look at the whole picture; fauxgressives focus on identity politics.

     

    3. Progressives oppose war; fauxgressives only oppose it when a Republican does it.

     

    4. Progressives care about morals; fauxgressives care about political parties.

    A progressive doesn’t care what letter you’ve got next to your name; the success or failure of a politician is measured by the extent to which they succeed or fail to forward the progressive agenda. A bunch of my readers jumped down my throat yesterday for being too forgiving of Bernie Sanders’ endorsement of the Russian hacking narrative, and that’s a good thing; even the number one face of the American progressive movement is subject to harsh criticism and ridicule the instant he fails progressivism in any area. That’s as it should be. Leaders should be judged by their actions and supported or condemned based on whether those actions benefit the people or the oligarchy.

    http://www.newslogue.com/debate/268/CaitlinJohnstone

    Her chosen pictures were good, so I used them as shorthand, but each item is supported by excellent, and colorful, reasoning.  So read the entire article.  It’s lively, it’s interesting, it’s true, and she nails it.

    It is applicable to progressives everywhere — including here.  :hi:

    Art from Ark, Gryneos, beltanefauve and 53 othersSpanishprof27, graycat, NJOCK, ThouArtThat, Pastiche, nashvillebrook, HomerRamone, Piperay, sabrina, Ohio Barbarian, IdaBriggs, Yanath, tk2kewl, wilsonbooks, Paka, hopemountain, jwirr, ReTooled, B Calm, As Seen on the Internet, Entrepreneur, OzoneTom, PDiddie, NikolaC, Segami, Hari, bvar22, Utopian Leftist, ramparta, Haikugal, OCMI, dlegendary1, FanBoy, Pam, ozoneman, Enthusiast, BillZBubb, djean111, mmonk, nevereVereven, historylovr, disillusioned73, Scuba, bbgrunt, TM99, Doremus Jessup, goodgirl, Tuesday, Passionate Progressive, joentokyo, Sadie, NuttyFluffers, id-entity like this

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

▼ Hide Reply Index
54 replies
  • 6 months ago #7
  • 6 months ago #26
  • 6 months ago #28
  • 2 months ago #47
    • NuttyFluffers (1774 posts)
      Profile photo of NuttyFluffers

      1. we love you Caitlin! /girly squeal

      oh em gee, you’re the greatests! keep giving it to them till they get it!

      /swoon

    • id-entity (2047 posts)
      Profile photo of id-entity

      2. Important comment on Sanders

      Other than historically, JPR progressivism isn’t or shouldn’t be about personal worship of Sanders – or anyone else. But about discussing issues and radical change for better, where that is needed.

      Some people come here with the idea (wonder where they got that from ;)) that to be able to belong to the JPR community, you need to pledge your loyalty to Sanders. No, you don’t need to.

      Sanders gets praise for doing good and also criticism where deserved, and opinions can and do vary.

      Disclaimer: You are free to reproduce, distribute, interpret, misinterpret, distort, garble, do what you like, even claim authorship, without my consent or the permission of anybody.
      • Xyzse (2501 posts)
        Profile photo of Xyzse Donor

        5. I agree. I like Sanders, and he has made me believe in him in many issues.

        Stating that, I know he is not perfect, and has stumbled quite a bit.

        I don’t expect people to like him all the time.  Heck, I think some of the things he is advocating for are unworkable.  However, I also know that it is still a great thing to fight for to find what works.

        I think what JPR has been trying to do is trying to be fair, which means criticizing and praising individuals no matter who by individual merit.

        I mean, I dislike Trump, but I can appreciate some of the things he has already done.  Much like I dislike Obama, but I can also appreciate some of the things he has done.  Only reason I come down hard on him is because some people have placed him in a pedestal, when he has caused so much damage.  In balance he has done a few decent things, from bailing out the auto industry as well as a better relationship with Cuba.  There are more, but those are the only two I can think of on the fly.

        • Cleita (2127 posts)
          Profile photo of Cleita

          10. I haven't seen anything he is advocating that is unworkable.

          What he is advocating has worked in other countries and many times in the past in our country. He’s not a flaming liberal as the right would have you believe, but a solid Democrat from my era who believed in the social policies of FDR an LBJ that have worked for decades now. Please tell me what I missed. Which policies are unworkable?

        • FanBoy (7985 posts)
          Profile photo of FanBoy

          18. the auto bailout was cover to allow bankruptcy and shedding of obligations

          to the workers

          • OCMI (1335 posts)
            Profile photo of OCMI

            22. +1

            Many people miss that part of what occurred in the auto bailouts.

            It is rarely mentioned that, in contract to financial institutions who were given money without any interference from the government as to how to run their companies, auto companies had to abide by government dictates.  My anger is not that the government did so to auto companies, but that they completely failed to do so for the banksters.

            If you dislike Trump, you should vote for him so we can change his party from within. Yes, Hillary supporters, this is how ridiculous you sound.
          • Xyzse (2501 posts)
            Profile photo of Xyzse Donor

            25. True…

            Never did say it was perfect, and I was already stretching to find something positive to say about Obama.

            -sigh-  I can’t actually think of anything he did that was overwhelmingly positive.

             

      • senz (5246 posts)
        Profile photo of senz Donor

        6. Agreed, and yet there will always be those who focus solely on personalities

        They drive me nuts because it seems like a kind of myopia, but that’s the way they are.  :shrug:

        However, I will admit I’ve got a special place in my heart for Bernie — partly for his honesty, integrity and humble bearing, but even more for having lived his entire life in service to political and economic fairness.  He could make a lot of mistakes and I personally would still love him.

        • Xyzse (2501 posts)
          Profile photo of Xyzse Donor

          32. I agree with you.

          Much like I had to stretch to find something nice to say about Obama… I had to stretch to find something I don’t like about Sanders.

        • hopemountain (1931 posts)
          Profile photo of hopemountain Donor

          34. you are not alone, senz

          bernie also has at least 40 years of experience – and the ability from not only the smarts ut also that very experience to see things very clearly.

          "economic and environmental justice is spiritual work." ~ tom b. k. goldtooth ....
      • rampart (25 posts)
        Profile photo of rampart

        45. +1

        a cult of personality is bad no matter how great the personality.

      • Stockholmer (1342 posts)
        Profile photo of Stockholmer

        46. Good point.

    • kliljedahl (841 posts)
      Profile photo of kliljedahl

      3. Neither, I'm a socialist

      "Actually lots of things happen after you die, just none of them include you..." Louis CK
      • Ohio Barbarian (3130 posts)
        Profile photo of Ohio Barbarian Donor

        36. ^^This!^^

        "Identity politics is the last refuge of the politically incompetent."  --Me, with a hat tip to Isaac Asimov  
    • disillusioned73 (346 posts)
      Profile photo of disillusioned73

      7. Good post..

      Can’t read the link.. I’ll still call myself a liberal though… since I get the most interesting responses from cons in my area.. ;)

      I wonder though, do Fauxgressives also say give Trump a chance with all the mounting evidence of a hostile administration toward liberals/ progressives/socialists (or whatever leftward ideological term we want to use)?? Do Fauxgressives down play the train-wreck that we are all witnessing?? I wonder…

      Not to say don’t be critical of the Bernies when needed… but aren’t Cons & libertarians “the enemy”… no? Why is it we hear all this kumbaya bullshit when a rightward tilt is in affect… but when there is a smidgen of left-leaning momentum we have to be pragmatic and conciliatory.. fuck that..

       

        "Certainly there are some people in the Democratic Party who want to maintain the status quo. They would rather go down with the Titanic so long as they have first-class seats." - Bernie Sanders
      • senz (5246 posts)
        Profile photo of senz Donor

        9. Ah, okay, here's where she mentions Trump

        3. Progressives oppose war; fauxgressives only oppose it when a Republican does it.

        Fauxgressives are bidding a tearful hero’s farewell to the first person to ever serve every single day of a full two terms as a wartime President. Obama’s corporatist military aggression and interventionism created a failed state in Libya causing unfathomable death, suffering, displacement and terrorism, gave thousands of tons of weapons to terrorist factions in Syria to facilitate another corporatist regime change, greatly expanded the drone program, committed a trillion dollars to increased nuclear weapons spending and dropped hundreds of thousands of bombs on seven countries. Fauxgressives also tried to elect a woman who was pledging with uncharacteristic consistency to set up a no-fly zone in Syria, which top US military officials attested would necessitate wars with both Syria and Russia, since it would mean shooting down the military planes of those countries as a matter of policy. Many fauxgressives were seen weeping and displaying tremendous grief that the woman who wanted to unleash these evils upon the world was not elected.

        Now that Trump is poised to take the wheel, however, we’re suddenly seeing the reemergence of the anti-war Democrat after eight years of hibernation. Anything Trump does from here on out that looks the slightest bit hawkish will be met with outrage and condemnation; even his accepting a phone call from Taiwan was loudly decried by the political left because it could increase tensions with China.

        Progressives realize that this brand of war opposition is worthless, since establishment warmongering will continue unfettered whenever the warmongering Republicans are chased out of office. This results in zero total reduction in bombs dropped and bullets fired; all a fauxgressive Democrat has to do is keep talking about diversity and equality in order to keep dropping bombs for their military industrial complex donors and plutocrats who want to install banks and prop up the US petrodollar. Progressives refuse to sign on for the bloodshed of America’s soldiers or anyone overseas unless it is an absolute necessity done in self defense. Progressives realize that war is the worst thing in the world and the least sustainable thing that our species does, while fauxgressives are fine with it as long as it happens overseas under a President with a (D) next to their name.

        Here’s a slightly shorter version of the link, hope it works better for you:  http://www.newslogue.com/debate/268

        Caitlin’s piece does ask us to think. 

        • disillusioned73 (346 posts)
          Profile photo of disillusioned73

          27. Thanks

          ..

            "Certainly there are some people in the Democratic Party who want to maintain the status quo. They would rather go down with the Titanic so long as they have first-class seats." - Bernie Sanders
    • d3lic (1144 posts)
      Profile photo of d3lic

      8. The vast majority of progressives know that Sanders is #1.

      He is still spot on.

      There is no change on that.

      If someone wants to tout Trump or Clinton as viable alternatives, fuck them.

      If someone wants to tout establishment D’s or R’s as viable alternatives, fuck them.

      If a progressive politician wants to play ball, they better play it on Sanders’ court, because at the moment Sanders owns it.

      Don’t anyone give me some shit about how some billionaire birther said something in 1980 that shows that the birther is “progressive”, giving the birther credence, and don’t anyone give me one off lines copy/pasted from Breitbart or some MSM carnival.  On this I’m not asking anyone to have pity on me, I’m asking people to have pity on themselves.

      If someone is progressive, let them come and play ball on the democratic socialist court and engage in longstanding reasoned discussion on how to actually implement a progressive program, like universal health care insurance, pharmacare insurance, auto insurance, and deal with other basic necessities.

      One thing for sure, Trump with his recent appointments can fuck right off.

      • Blue Meany (334 posts)
        Profile photo of Blue Meany

        50. I think that Sanders has become a "brand," a shorthand way of saying real

        progressive.  And when people defend him, it is usually his policies and his consistency over time that they are defending.  But when they are attacking, they are often attacking his personality and strategies, which are more vulnerable, while actually trying to discredit his policy proposals.  It would be good to find a shorthand way of distinguishing Bernie “the brand” and Bernie the man, politician, and fallible human.

    • Enthusiast (8244 posts)
      Profile photo of Enthusiast Donor

      13. The Democratic Party establishment wants us to focus on specific issues only,

      like abortion rights, gay rights, gun control and the rest. They want us to ignore tax issues, the MIC, charter schools, drone strikes, Wall Street regulations and corporate influence.

      "The NSA’s capability at any time could be turned around on the American people, and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything. There would be no place to hide."  Frank Church
      • senz (5246 posts)
        Profile photo of senz Donor

        14. Yes. They use certain issues to detract us from other issues.

        They don’t want us to focus on the big picture, because then we will see what they are doing.

        But now we’re on to them. 

      • OCMI (1335 posts)
        Profile photo of OCMI

        23. +1

        And don’t forget

        If you dislike Trump, you should vote for him so we can change his party from within. Yes, Hillary supporters, this is how ridiculous you sound.
      • Blue Meany (334 posts)
        Profile photo of Blue Meany

        51. Yes, it's almost as if there is an agreement between the two parties to only

        debate on social issues and never on economic ones.  When Barnie Frank was challenged to name progressive accomplishments of Hillary Clinton, everything he listed was about her bringing diversity into her appointments.  The 3rd way Democrats have tried to define this as the totality of progressivism.  But what good is that if one is proposing policies that hurt the majority of people–and minorities most of all?   This is what used to be dismissed as tokenism, something Republicans are almost as good at as Democrats.

        • Enthusiast (8244 posts)
          Profile photo of Enthusiast Donor

          54. There is certainly an agreement. It's good cop, bad cop all the way down.

          A half way decent media would catch on to this. But the media isn’t even one sixteenth decent. As a matter of fact they are an instrumental part of the deception. And that is no theory, it’s a conspiracy.

          "The NSA’s capability at any time could be turned around on the American people, and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything. There would be no place to hide."  Frank Church
    • frylock (1219 posts)
      Profile photo of frylock Donor

      15. I'm now self-identifying as a leftist.

    • Segami (4126 posts)
      Profile photo of Segami

      26. KICK!

      :bounce:

    • sonofspy777 (141 posts)
      Profile photo of sonofspy777 Donor

      28. Personally I'm a

      faux of non progressive neo liberal neocon scum of all stripes!

           

      Fiat justitia, pereat coelum!

      (The truth, tho' Heaven falls!)   - John Quincy Adams

          Bernie - 2

    • As Seen on the Internet (305 posts)
      Profile photo of As Seen on the Internet

      30. I logged in just to recommend

    • hopemountain (1931 posts)
      Profile photo of hopemountain Donor

      35. progressives and fauxprogressives don't agree

      on the environment. progressives want the pipelines and oil drilling stopped/ended, and support green energy sources – fauxprogressives want an alternate route and support further oil wells, natural gas trains, and oil pipelines for china. what part of contaminating the environment don’t fauxprogressives get?

      "economic and environmental justice is spiritual work." ~ tom b. k. goldtooth ....
      • Ohio Barbarian (3130 posts)
        Profile photo of Ohio Barbarian Donor

        37. I'll answer your question.

        Fauxprogressives don’t get anything that might diminish their stock portfolios.

        "Identity politics is the last refuge of the politically incompetent."  --Me, with a hat tip to Isaac Asimov  
    • sabrina (5959 posts)
      Profile photo of sabrina Moderator Emeritus

      38. The Dem party was successfully infiltrated and the coup is complete. See how

      they all marched in lockstep behind the worst Dem candidate in living memory and refused to support the candidate who best represented what they CLAIM to be.

      That tells us that there is not much left if anything, of the progressive wing of the party.

    • ThouArtThat (4031 posts)
      Profile photo of ThouArtThat Donor

      41. Excellent And On Point

      eom

      "In America Today, Power Corrupts and Money Corrupts Absolutely" - Anonymous  
    • Cassiopeia (1951 posts)
      Profile photo of Cassiopeia

      42. We've tried it the Clinton way for 25 years.

      The test has run it’s course and failed.  It was profitable, but not sustainable.

      Let’s try it Bernie’s way for just 4 years.  I’m betting we’ll all like it a lot better. Even the extreme right D/R base.

      The only minority we should actually fear is the wealthiest 1%
    • Bernice Ta (393 posts)
      Profile photo of Bernice Ta Donor

      47. I am a progressive.

      Looking back, I always have been. I first registered as Independent before that was a recognized political party in NC. Since then, I’ve been unaffiliated. While I mostly vote along Democratic party lines, there have been occasions locally where a Republican was more in line with my views (amazing, but true at the time). Party means nothing these days, when the D is as corporate-owned as the R.

      I’ve had my issues with Bernie, but for the most part he still speaks for me. I’d like to see him break away from the DNC and go back to being his independent self and run that way in 2020. I believe he would win. He’s shown he doesn’t need their money machine, their talking heads, their “help”.

      If not Bernie, then someone very much like him. I don’t really see anyone currently who would have his chances of winning in 2018 or 2020, so I’m afraid that whether he likes it or not, he’s going to have to be the front line for a true change in American politics. He can retire later, when he’s forged a new path and there are experienced people to take over and continue to win races.

    • Tierra y Libertad (1454 posts)
      Profile photo of Tierra y Libertad Donor

      53. “Every doctrine to become popular, must be made superficial, exaggerated, untrue

      “Every doctrine to become popular, must be made superficial, exaggerated, untrue. We must always distinguish the real essence from the conveyance, especially in political economy.”   Lord Acton

       

      But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants is the liberty of appearing. Thomas Paine