Arguing natural vs vaccine immunity.

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    • #443183
      HassleCat
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      Looks like natural immunity varies. So does vaccine immunity. This virus will be with us for a while. For my part, I’m getting a booster as soon as I can. The important thing is to wear a mask, avoid crowds, limit contact, etc. We may be limited in ordinary, everyday activities such as going to work or school, riding the bus, attending church, eating at the deli, etc.

      Prior COVID Infection Doesn’t Guarantee Good Immunity: Study (msn.com)

    • #443185
      Average Gazoo
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      against variants. The numbers come from Israel because the USA is not testing or tracking the variants or the effectiveness of vaccines against them.

      Covid survivors should be exempt from vaccine mandates.

      https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/309762

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      • #443188
        HassleCat
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        The Israeli numbers are meaningless because they are not controlled for age, occupation or a dozen other factors that could skew the results. Establishing an exemption for Covid survivors makes no sense, since there is nothing from which to be exempt. We have no vaccine mandates right now, and we’re unlikely to have any in the near future because so many people can’t get proof of vaccination. And I would have to prove I had Covid to get an exemption. How would I do that? We would do well to stop arguing about me vs. you and get down to business.

      • #443192
        GZeusH
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        Since there are many “covid survivors” who had minor symptoms, the only way to identify them would be through testing them for antibodies.  Unless Dr. McCoy comes back in time with a working tricorder, that would mean doing some extensive labwork.

        As a practical issue, vaccinating people who have already been exposed to the disease and developed antibodies is going to happen.

        Corporate America consists of totalitarian entities laser-focused on short-term greed.

        If you just got finessed into calling the medicine that won the 2015 Nobel Prize for its role in treating human disease ‘horse de-wormer’ then you need to sit the next couple of plays out.

        • #443197
          Average Gazoo
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          Israel has a healthcare system — we do not. We have an insurance system and a bunch of providers that don’t share data or coordinate policies. Israel has the highest vaccination rate in the world so public health professionals are looking at Israel to predict our future.

          Major employers and other entities have enacted vaccine mandates.

          Covid survivors have the best protection against further exposure. Science and the data shows this to be true. Vaccinating them just to make laypeople feel a half notch safer or superior prioritizes feelings over health. That ain’t science or good policy.

          >The newly released data show people who once had a SARS-CoV-2 infection were much less likely than never-infected, vaccinated people to get Delta, develop symptoms from it, or become hospitalized with serious COVID-19.<

          https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

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    • #443196
      game meat
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      For the sake of argument, let’s say that natural immunity is 85764787868757644797953732.8x better than the vaccines. So what?

      Just like the vaccine, that protection doesn’t last forever, and this has been known for some time now. If you had the disease your protection will wane over time. If person A has/had natural immunity and person B has/had vaccine immunity, they both end up in the same place on a long enough time line. The natural immunity argument is little more than a diversion.

      And all this bs just to justify opting out of the free shot. You would think people were being asked to swim across a moat full of alligators and wrestle the angry bear waiting for them on the other side, rather than being asked to spend five minutes at your local pharmacy. Jesus…

       

       

       

      • #443200
        Average Gazoo
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        severe week-long reactions.

        One of them has full blown PTSD — so no, the shot was not “free” or necessary.

        Do you understand innate vs adaptive immunity? Your comment is at odds with science on this point. 20 to 50% of the population has innate immunity to SARS-CoV2 that means their immunity will not “wane over time.”

        https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200716-the-people-with-hidden-protection-from-covid-19

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        • #443202
          HassleCat
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          Actually, it’s four, so my data are better than your data. You realize I’m being sarcastic, right?

          • #443207
            Average Gazoo
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            Sarcasm is the least efficient form of communication since it tells us only what you DON’T believe is true. And it is a form of bullying.

            You are trying to make this personal and I am trying to talk about the science. You seem to want to nurture your own feelings while callously joking(?) about others’ PTSD. I can handle your abuse but I want truth. I want science.

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            • #443211
              HassleCat
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              I believe you are substituting your emotional investment for science. Anecdotal observations are not science. No, a single example of something does not invalidate a statstical study.  You propose making public health policy based on observations from another country where they have a different system, a different population, etc. No, sarcasm is not bullying. You are playing the victim in an effort to distract from the fact that you are defining “science” as whatever fits your preconceived notions.

              • #443242
                Average Gazoo
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                Perhaps you don’t understand the basics of science or data or statistics or probability or human biology which is not different in Israel than in the USA, because if you did you would not accuse me of trying to redefine science. As clearly as I can say this: The measurable or documented occurence of an event which contradicts a theory invalidates the theory.

                We have to go with data from other countries because we are not collecting data here:

                America is flying blind when it comes to the Delta variant — Guardian UK (but talking about the USA…same species of homo sapiens in both countries btw…)
                https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/09/america-is-flying-blind-when-it-comes-to-the-delta-variant

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                • #443256
                  HassleCat
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                  I wasn’t aware a theory had been put forward. I thought it was an observational study, or perhaps a statistical analysis. I have done those and I am aware that individual examples very often lie outside the norm, and they require explanation, but they do not invalidate the study, its findings or its conclusions. Not automatically, not simply by their presence.  I believe you are thinking of something like the theory of natural selection, where it has been proposed that an example of an altruistic species would invalidate the theory. That’s a very different thing than examining outliers to see how they affect a statistical analysis.

        • #443224
          game meat
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          Not really sure that’s the “science at this point,” especially since it admits to being speculative and is focused on leading to a vaccine (we have that now). Reinfections are well documented, and there’s still a lot we don’t know. Even now the research is still ongoing in regards to the antibody response and t-cell response.

          As far as the latter, in a recent study (aug, 2021) the findings suggest that a prior covid infection is roughly equivalent to one shot, making the first shot necessary for that group, but the second shot redundant, but ultimately harmless. So, just because you had the virus doesn’t mean the vaccine is not necessary, although one shot might be enough. I mean that’s too bad that you know people who had bad reactions, but the fact remains that millions have not. While I realize that it’s only natural to take personal experience into account, anecdotal evidence isn’t “science.”

          In the new study, which appears in the journal Immunity, the Penn Medicine researchers analyzed the T-cell responses in 47 healthy people who received two doses of the Moderna and Pfizer/BioNTech mRNA vaccines.

          The results reveal the complex details of how the T-cell response to these vaccines unfolds, and underline the importance of a second dose for people with no history of COVID-19. The findings showed, however, that in people with a history of COVID-19, the T-cell response was already robust after the first vaccine dose, with no significant increase after the second dose, which may have implications for potential future booster shots.

          “For people who haven’t had COVID-19, the first dose powerfully primes the pump, and the second dose turns on the whole engine—but having had COVID-19 is like having had that first vaccine dose already,” Wherry said. “It is important to point out, however, that a complete understanding of the relative importance of these T cell responses, compared to antibody, in protection from future infections will require larger clinical studies.” https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2021/august/penn-study-details-robust-tcell-response-to-mrna-covid19-vaccines

          • #443246
            Average Gazoo
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            Ignoring evidence is not science.

            We know from data modeling that large portions of the population have innate immunity and researchers have detailed the mechanisms for this. Most commonly known example: children have very high immunity to Covid19 because their innate immune response is more robust than adults.

            Be the Change

            • #443259
              game meat
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              You seem to be ignoring the evidence that people who were previously infected still benefit from the vaccine, and that getting the vaccine after having covid is generally safe.

              Instead, you are insisting that the experiences of the two people you know take precedence over the more exhaustive research, along with this non sequitur about innate immunity.

              The latter may explain why some people are asymptomatic or have mild symptoms while others get deathly ill, but it has no direct relevance to vaccine policy, or lack thereof.  The former kind of reminds me how people would argue against seat belts by relating some story about how someone got in a car accident and got strangled to death by the thing, proving (supposedly) that wearing a seat belt is actually more dangerous than not wearing a seat belt.

    • #443219
      lownslow
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      Well, im gonna keep masking up, stay away from folks, etc and kick back and see what the long term effects are from these hurried up vaxes. Trusting cdc and big pharma is just crazy to me. Follow the money. If it was a sterilising vax with a better safety record i would probably get it. I dont know for sure but heard somewhere that other experimental vaxes have been tossed aside that had better safety profiles, will try to look it up. Remember, you dont get to sue if the vaxes f you up 🙂

       

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