As Pandemic Soars to Deadly New Heights, ‘Conservative Ideology Itself’ Blamed for Disastrous US Response

Homepage | Forums | Main Forums | General Discussion | As Pandemic Soars to Deadly New Heights, ‘Conservative Ideology Itself’ Blamed for Disastrous US Response

Viewing 15 reply threads
  • Author
    Posts
    • #383017
      sonofspy777
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 5,775

      A supporter of President Donald Trump insults counter-protesters during a rally in Washington, D.C., on November 14, 2020.

      While acknowledging that conservatism is “not homogenous,” Linden and Aibinder argue that at the heart of the reactionary ideology is the view that “government itself tends to cause more problems than it solves, and that free markets—unencumbered by government intervention—are always best positioned to allocate resources and improve society.”

      Adherence to those two positions, according to Linden and Aibinder, is incompatible with an effective response to a pandemic that necessitates coordinated state action to control the spread of the virus, which has now killed more than 273,000 people in the U.S.—the highest Covid-19 death toll in the world.

      In contrast with countries like New Zealand and South Korea, where decisive government action helped prevent Covid-19 from running rampant, Linden and Aibinder noted that the U.S. response was plagued by “the conservative belief that government is more often the problem than the solution,” which “made it practically inevitable that Republicans would render their own government ineffective.”

      “Instead of coordinating a national strategy to address the acute shortage of personal protective equipment and vital medical supplies across the country, this administration encouraged state leaders to essentially compete with one another to save their own people,” write Linden and Aibinder. “When pressed by state leaders to help solve the PPE shortage, senior White House adviser Jared Kushner replied, ‘The free market will solve it.’ When asked about the federal government’s role in assuring schools are able to resume in-person instruction safely, Education Secretary Betsy DeVos contended that was not her department’s job.”

      https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/12/03/pandemic-soars-deadly-new-heights-conservative-ideology-itself-blamed-disastrous-us

      “Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”
      ~Samuel Clemens

    • #383081
      GZeusH
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,281

      when conservatives run the government.

    • #383087
      Voltairine
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,945

      Authoritarian state worship is conservative. And also fash.

      Americans oppose socialism because they’ve been told the big lie that socialism means totalitarian big gubment. If and when they hear about genuine libertarian socialism, they mostly go: sounds OK. Nothing against co-ops and free association.

      Aloha!

    • #383088
      incognito
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,405

      recommendation list. I watched the episode because it was titled, “I don’t care about COVID-19.”

      It is a supposed “Christian” asshole droning on about how sad and upset he was over the election and decided he’s not watching any more political shows. Then, he had the balls to start whining about some friends who came to visit and they wore MASKS!! /:*”#$@&_&$# OMG! That pissed him off!

      I call that respect. Which he didn’t show to his friends by being maskless.

      This is a man (he lives in Oregon somewhere) who has two children and a wife and he isn’t doing everything in his power to keep them safe.

      Then yesterday, low and behold, 5 days after his anti mask rant, he puts up a video, “I have COVID-19.”

      I call that KARMA.

      I was surprised he actually admitted he had it because it makes him look like the fool he is. Fucking idiot.

    • #383117
      Voltairine
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,945

      So much ill will towards fellow people, so much resentment, bitterness and self loathing projected outwards. It’s not healthy and responsible, really. It’s very toxic.

      Question to anybody: remember the last time you shared a smile with a random stranger? A smile can save a day, save a life. 🙂

      Aloha!

    • #383213
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 18,605

      All those vaccines that have been developed would have been impossible without the funding, proffered rewards, and the resources of the federal government. The same is true in other countries, like China. In Vietnam and Cuba, with true socialized medicine, the death rate is exceedingly low.

      In Japan and other countries, people simply went along with mask mandates because it was the reasonable and safe thing to do. Only in America did wearing masks become a political issue. Only Americans were that stupid, I’m sorry to say, but it’s true.

      Other countries mostly nationalized their payrolls, guaranteeing that jobs would not be lost and homeowners and tenants would not be evicted, but in America that didn’t happen and now we are either staring into the abyss or pretending it isn’t there. Only the federal government is big enough and powerful enough to make the necessary difference, but it’s so corrupt, so in service to the kleptocracy, that it is likely to fail.

      Lockdown orders without some form of UBI are a recipe for economic, and perhaps political, disaster. A disaster that can easily make half a million deaths caused by a virus pale in comparison.

      Winter is coming.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

      • #383224
        Voltairine
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,945

        How does the fact that “Big Gubment” (as per common Murican misconception) Nordic Countries have been rather reluctant even to recommend public mask use, and mandatory mask use remains unthinkable police state measure, fit that narrative?

        Trust the science?

        Sweden’s public health officials say they see no reason to change their strategy given the seemingly positive trend – including their stance on masks.

        State epidemiologist Anders Tegnell of the Public Health Agency insists scientific studies have not proven that masks are effective in limiting the spread of the virus, suggesting they can do more harm than good if used sloppily.

        “There are at least three heavyweight reports – from the World Health Organization, the (EU health agency) ECDC and The Lancet report that the WHO cites – which all state that the scientific evidence is weak. We haven’t carried out our own assessment,” he recently told reporters.
        https://www.euractiv.com/section/coronavirus/news/sweden-bucks-trend-in-refusing-to-recommend-masks/

        Aloha!

        • #383231
          Ohio Barbarian
          Moderator
          • Total Posts: 18,605

          And disposable masks are designed to be used only for a few days at a time and then replaced with another one. Funny, I thought you Nordics were supposed to be more educated than us ignorant Americans, and you don’t know that? Silly me.

          And don’t tell me what we Americans think of poverty or disease, Finn. I don’t claim to know how Finns think, so extend me the same courtesy or bugger off. And human beings will never escape some authority and some hierarchy. We’re social animals, and that’s the way it is. I am neither an anarchist nor a libertarian because I am an adult human being.

          It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

          Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

          • #383236
            Voltairine
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 1,945

            I’m Savonian and our way of life was very similar to that of our good friends Lenni Lenape. We didn’t need words “anarchist” or “libertarian” because we lived it. Free. Something that Settler descendants of generations and generations of slavery in various forms can’t easily even imagine.

            Being made a man of two cultures, having both indigenous and colonized sides, of course I understand the colonialist and settler experience much better than you know us.

            Authoritarian following is something that naturally belongs to dependent childhood. Growing into responsible adulthood means facing each other as peers. I do like you, also when behaving like grumpy big baby, and there’s much more to your uniqueness. <3

            Aloha!

            • #383255
              Ohio Barbarian
              Moderator
              • Total Posts: 18,605

              I am descended from settlers. People who migrated long after your own ancestors did, and won their land by right of conquest. We’ll never give it up, either. It’s not politically correct for me to say that, but it is the truth. It is reality.

              I won’t be ashamed of my ancestors, either. Go back far enough, and I’m sure you’ll find some of your own who were just as bad or worse than mine, but I have no doubts they had as much courage and resilience as my own.

              It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

              Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

              • #383364
                Voltairine
                Participant
                • Total Posts: 1,945

                I don’t give a fuck about being politically correct, friend, thank you for being real and genuine.

                Right of conquest is ancient thing, my Savonian ancestors allied with the fucking Swedish state to get hunting and fishing grounds from Karelians. And so we ended up getting fucked by civilization. It’s old, and as such conservative tradition. The progressive, evolutionary idea and vision is that perhaps there could be possibility of learning to live together in peace by focusing on learning play better win win games instead of games of violent domination.

                And if you don’t mind me mincing my words, either. I don’t mean “settler” as an insult, just as technical term, the way younger generations speak this lingo nowadays. I’m first to admit that I have little to teach to kids, and much to learn from them. That’s the break down of traditional conservatism, inability to pass and trust inter-generational know how. All I can do is to try to keep learning.

                Can you answer this, though? How can you claim ownership of land, as representative of a culture, without showing any ability to take care of the land in sustainable manner that nourishes also the future generations? Right of conquest in the name of die-off of your – and my – children?  Is that really the best progressive case you can and will make? Like fucking heart to heart, friend?

                Aloha!

              • #383369
                Voltairine
                Participant
                • Total Posts: 1,945

                To be honest about ancestors is not shame. Colonialist culture is slavery in many forms. Is it shame to be slave, descendant of slaves, living in wage slavery? If you aske me, only shame is dishonesty. It takes real courage and strength to face our hurts and heal.

                Aloha!

              • #383377
                Voltairine
                Participant
                • Total Posts: 1,945

                YOu deserve some honesty from my part. When I get out, some people recognize me as a shaman. Dunno how, but some even try to worship me, which I consider awful. It’s just a role, a mask, and in my humble opinion it’s better to evolve beyond that origin of class society. Not that I’m really humble, my self importance is the size of an universe.

                I’m pretty bad parent, but I do care. And my heart has been genuinely opened. I do believe and care about progressive evolution that is also conservative in the sense of sustainable adaptation. Maybe that relation is the core of what they call shamanhood, as well as being extremely goal oriented. Maybe it’s not the whole but just a weird trip. Some say narratives is all there is, but I feel quite strongly also about silent – or too complex to speak about – knowing by feeling.

                Aloha!

    • #383225
      Fasttense
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,441

      The article said in effect that American conservatives and establishment Dems see poverty, and death at the hands of a virus, as a kind of just dessert. A form of deserved punishment, for being lazy, for being foolish, for being slow. For being, above all, weak — because only the strong should survive. So if your loved one, or anyone, dies from COVID it is their own fault. Not the fault of failed institutions designed to address public health problems. Not the fault of horrible leadership and incompetent managers. Not the fault of greedy owners of monopolies who demand that the poor work or else die trying. It’s just what the markets demand – a sacrifice.

      America doesn’t have any social contract — a set of public institutions which manage public goods for people, healthcare and transport and finance and childcare and so on. It only has markets. And markets can not stop or reduce the spread of a pandemic.

      Markets reward the rich — while crushing the middle class and poor. Markets don’t care or worry if you die trying to feed your family. Americans think markets are the truest judges of the worth of a person. And if the markets cause someone to die while trying to process chicken for money during a pandemic then too bad, so sad.

      Americans do not see poverty as a social bad or ill, they don’t see the virus and all the death as a social ill either — they see it as a necessary way to discipline, punish, and control those with a lack of virtue or a deficit of strength,  by hitting them with a stick or letting them die from Covid, to inculcate the virtues of hard work, temperance, industriousness, and above all, self-reliance. Each man and woman an island, on their own to fight a pandemic with half truths and incoherent leadership and managers.

      The problem, of course, is that this market control is not a civilized system to address problems. It fails in every instance to lead to public good.

      Markets just can not do all that the filthy rich demand of them so of course they takeover America’s pseudo democracy to do the rest.

      Government works, it just doesn’t work for us.

      • #383243
        Voltairine
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,945

        “A form of deserved punishment…” from my perspective, that is psychopathology common to the colonialist settler culture as whole. Being descendants of generations and generations of slavery in various forms leaves it’s marks, deep scars.

        In my view decolonialization is for all of us and especially for settlers who are in most urgent and dire need of healing, carrying the longest and heaviest burden of slavery, and without language and traditions to speak about the burden or even start to recognize it.

        Living as members of deeply unhealthy society, being told often even believing that is a superiority tripping privilege instead of a form of slavery. Knowing at least somewhere deep down that the unhealthy and highly unsustainable society can’t be trusted to provide for our most basic instinct, to offer our children and future generations a fair chance of living a good human life. Feelings of guilt and deserving punishment are very understandable in that sense. But not very rational and coherent. Healthy self love and feeling well are our main gifts and obligations to the world at large.

        One thing I’ve learned about human psyche is that it’s much easier to forgive wrong doings and weakness to others. Truly forgiving ourselves is often the hardest, most difficult thing to do. And because of that, it can be the most empowering and strongest thing to do. Not in the sense of dominating others, but as source of strength to fellow travelers and society.

        Aloha!

        • #383507
          Haikugal
          Moderator
          • Total Posts: 1,958

          “A form of deserved punishment…” from my perspective, that is psychopathology common to the colonialist settler culture as whole. Being descendants of generations and generations of slavery in various forms leaves it’s marks, deep scars.

          In my view decolonialization is for all of us and especially for settlers who are in most urgent and dire need of healing, carrying the longest and heaviest burden of slavery, and without language and traditions to speak about the burden or even start to recognize it.

          I wonder if you know Waterman or H2Oman at the place that shall not be named…?? He does sweat lodges and offered to teach me. He lives too far from me at this time to get there for the lesson. He might be someone you would enjoy. He has deep history…

          OB, you’re my favorite Barbarian…LOL Keep up the good work!!

          The DNC “big tent” excludes Nina Turner but includes John Kasich.
          God, guns, and gobbledygook...we live in an aquarium of nightmares.

    • #383257
      HassleCat
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 5,408

      Conservatives lost the ideological battle when Regan convinced people that being conservative and hating government were the same thing. Conservatives need government to protect the rich from the poor, to make war against small, helpless countries, to collect taxes and transfer the revenue to corporations, and many other important functions. The MAGA crowd is not conservative, and they are slowly awakening to that fact. They are anarchists of a sort. Some of them are religious revolutionaries who seek to establish a theocracy. Some of them are Randroids who see themselves as protagonists from Atlas Shrugged. Some of the are lonely tech geek incels who live in mom’s basement. Probably most of them identify as conservatives because they hate liberals, but they are not conservatives, or at least they don’t follow conservative ideology. Many of them depend on the welfare state for food, shelter and medical care. Genuine conservatives find them scary, and hope they never wake up and stop voting Republican. Or maybe they should because they enable people like Trump, who is not a real conservative.

      • #383300
        Voltairine
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,945

        Yes, “Conservative” has many meanings, beyond a tribal political identity. There is very strong libertarian/anarchist general undercurrent in America that is not polarized either left or right but has a lot of common with pre-modern Luddite anti-capitalism. And general rural distrust of urban bossing that extraxt wealth from rural periphery to the urban ruling class. Rural communities are naturally traditional peer-to-peer mutualist, and in that sense “conservative”. Environmental sustainability is conservative as well as adaptive.

        In literal meaning of both words, a good balance of conservative and progressive is good and necessary. In my view our big challenge and duty is to evolve from the level of locally sustainable cultures to globally sustainable mutual society and world peace. From what I have heard and learned, this big dream and goal is supported by indigenous wisdom traditions showing their progressive side, astronauts and kosmonauts, internationalist left, cryptorevolution currents, Buddhists etc.

        So, we have fairly strong consensus of the main progressive goal: world peace and globally inclusive society. And conservative constructive criticism concerning various ideas and means to reach that goal. Both are good and necessary.

        Aloha!

      • #383452
        jerry611
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,181

        Yes. Believe it or not there are some bloggers and vloggers I followed back during the Occupy Wall Street days that I notice this year were Trump supporters. The Trump coalition is a very, very odd one. Religious conservatives are there. Nationalists are there. You expect that. But you also got a weird mix of libertarian populists and anti-establishment groups. These people hate the government and buy into the idea that there is a “deep state” conspiracy and a corporate undercurrent all working together against the common American man. It’s a very real and very popular belief held by many Americans across the spectrum.

        The traditional Regan/Bush conservatism is dead. Everyone knows that. So the GOP is in a state of flux right now to survive, and some fear that Trumpism is ultimately the ideology that will take hold in the party.  And it could work because it’s opening up to being welcoming to a lot of different anti-establishment ideologies. Which is popular right now. And when the Democrats are now becoming very strong pro-establishment and big government….it’s playing right into Trumpism.

        Also what Obama has done in his terms, and what Biden is going to do with this warhawk cabinet he’s putting together, is basically make the GOP the anti-war party. If you are anti-war, anti-interventionist, anti-free trade, the Democratic party is moving away from you. That’s concerning.

        • #383466
          Voltairine
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 1,945

          “Traditional” Reagan/Bush (neo)conservatism is far from dead. Obama, Clinton, Biden etc. have taken up that legacy and continue to carry it to worse. Among the ruling elite, the 20%, the professional managerial class, corporate fascism and imperialism is stronger than ever.

          Trump weirdo shit was and is anti-establishment phenomenon for the most part. Anti-establishment is not unified thing but comes in many different forms. Doesn’t mean we can’t have class solidarity and dialogue between caring classes, in all our variety.

          Aloha!

    • #383265
      Jan Boehmerman
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 3,897

      They realized this after they experienced death rates that were much higher than their Nordic neighbors.


      @voltairine
      the article you cite above is from September.  I’d suggest you check the new Covid measures that have gone into effect in Sweden since November.

      • #383290
        Voltairine
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,945

        I’m somewhat aware of those. I might be wrong, but to my understanding Sweden fucked up something big way with elderly peoples homes.

        The basic philosophy of government trusting informed public to act in responsible way – which is how Sweden explained their policy – without getting bossy and authoritarian besserwisser has something to it, at least in my opinion… and trust can and tends to work both ways, mutually. A healthy community and society is based on trust. Maybe I’m wrong, but there seems to be significant shortage of mutual trust among the American people.

        There are cultural differences. Nordic peoples are generally considered rather cool headed and down to earth pragmatic. Americans have gained fame for their outrage culture.

        I consider temper tantrums of hot outrage awful waste of energy. Good rage is to be cherished, preserved fueling ice cold determination to affect real change and right a wrong. Directing cold rage skillfully is a main source of creative energy. Revolution requires quite a lot of cold rage.

        Aloha!

    • #383341
      Jan Boehmerman
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 3,897

      Way more than that, @voltairine …. as the measures they’ve adapted since November show.

      • #383454
        Voltairine
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,945

        Masks may have some meaning for slowing down the spreading of the virus to avoid overloading the health care system until herd immunity or what ever, and as I’ve said, no problem with recommending and using them, if that is your choice. Knowing that there’s also big problems with pollution etc.

        Mandatory use and getting totalitarian police state against difference of opinion, different story and no thanks.

        On the positive side, flying has practically stopped polluting the atmosphere and airline companies going kaput around the world.

         

        Aloha!

    • #383435
      Captain Arizona
      Blocked
      • Total Posts: 294

      The pandemic has been made worse in every area because of right wing conservative ideology. From funding nothing but the military industrial complex to healthcare. You name it conservatism made it worse.

    • #383458
      jerry611
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,181

      The debate will go on long after the pandemic is over.

      Already the conservatives are claiming the liberals are pushing for “tyranny of scientists.” They think Democrats are trying to use science to legitimize a far-left agenda designed to create radical changes to freedoms and the way of life.

      So this debate over science is going to go on much longer than the pandemic.

      • #383470
        Voltairine
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,945

        Right wing libertarians are not talking about “tyranny of scientists”, they as well as left libertarians are highly critical of authoritarian and totalitarian censorship and ruling elites pushing politically selected narratives in the name of “science”, which in fact is anti-scientific as hell, as it’s not supposed to be dogmatic belief system, but rational dialogue, which is not possible under censorship of different opinions.

        YouTube censors Kim Iversen – who identifies as a progressive libertarian / anti-authoritarian –  for quoting and discussing peer revieved scientific studies. That’s anti-science, pure and clear.

        Of course right wingers who call ruling class anti-science totalitarianism “far-left” are far-ignorant and full of it. And “lefty” identitarians (id-pol  ruling class neocons, really) who play to the same twisted play book are even more full of it.

        Of course in order not to go totally bonkers, first thing to do is to make clear distinction between science as ideal for rational opinion forming, and what goes as “scientific community” and academic sociology nowadays. You can’t do the first without basics of philosophy of epistemology, methodological skepticism etc. Otherwise you end up confusing science with religion, dogmatic belief systems, blind faith in authorities and narratives which are all about politics and nothing to with ideal for rational opinion forming and sense making.

        Aloha!

    • #383483
      salemcourt
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,301

      This disease does not affect young children (below 18) as much as flu.  Hey, but if affects my generation.  Let us shut down the whole country because I am selfish and want to see my children/grand children.  So they should not be out partying. going to school, getting jobs, etc,  They should not even have traditional gatherings such as Thanksgiving!

    • #383519
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,798

      @salemcourt

      Is that people should continue partying, going to school, getting jobs, having traditional gatherings, because children aren’t as likely to die from the virus.  Hmm.  So what about their parents?  What about the many grandparents raising their grandchildren?  The hospitals being filled well beyond capacity?  You don’t think that shit is going to hurt kids?  How many foster children do you think this pandemic will make?  How many kids are going to go into a system designed to fail?

      Seems to me that these social gatherings remain very reckless, irresponsible.  Now that isn’t a crime – but it not being a crime is not going to help hospitals treat patients.

      If the virus wasn’t spreading quite considerably in almost every state, you might have a point.  As it is, it seems entirely rational to me to shut down the Country – provided there is a UBI to go along with it.  As neither seem likely, I don’t think you have to worry about another one.  Nope, the “my civil liberties are worth more than your life” group will get their way, it seems.  So, congratulations on that.

      • #383524
        JonLP
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 2,824

        I agree with your post.

        I have been inside for 8 months except to run errands and it looks like I will be stuck inside until a vaccine.

        Let this radicalize you rather than lead you to despair - Mariame Kaba

      • #383526
        game meat
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,368

        For whatever reason, younger kids don’t spread the virus easily, resulting in the schools not becoming covid hotspots. For smaller children, interaction through play and socialization is an integral part of their cognitive development. Remote learning just doesn’t cut it. The benefits outweigh the risks in this case. Every covid policy is a cost/benefit analysis. There is never a perfect policy.

        My state has a mask mandate, but it still spreads because of people having private parties/gatherings, and then things spiral from there. That stuff is the culprit, not the schools. This is unfortunate. Humans are social animals, so it is difficult to get everyone to adhere to hermetic living for such a long period of time, and it only takes a small percentage of people to succumb to the boredom, eschewing rationality in favor of their natural instincts. We are a rationalizing species first, and a rational species second, imo.

        But I don’t get the steadfast opposition to the masks. It’s a minor inconvenience, but the way some people act, you would think they were being targeted for castration.

        • #383567
          HassleCat
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 5,408

          some people think mandating masks is a totalitarian measure. They cannot (or do not wish to) differentiate between forcing you to wear a mask in public and locking you in a reeducation camp. Masks are the same as any other form of state coercion. Any time the government forces you to do something you don’t feel like doing, you have lost your freedom.

    • #383607
      salemcourt
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,301

      @daivdthegnome  Adults (over 18) should wear masks and do social distancing.  Thinking that people can live while not getting UBI or not having any work is foolish.   Might as well believe in Unicorns.  Work, at least in this society, unless you are retired or have independent income, is essential for survival. Talk to the real workers in the Midwest.  They would gladly take the risk of death, not to party as you so glibly put it, but to put food on their tables for their children, who are now stuck at home, some of them not even getting the free breakfast and lunch that helped them tide over.  You may not be aware, but suicides amongst youth have gone up. You do not lock down children because you are afraid of dying.

    • #383690
      sonofspy777
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 5,775

      Remember HALF of Oklahoma was given back to the natives this year.

      ps I also have dual culture as a late settler married to indigenous royal stock…

      “Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”
      ~Samuel Clemens

Viewing 15 reply threads
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.