Barbarian at the Gates: How Vichy Democrats have made impeachment unimportant

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  • #226255

    Ohio Barbarian
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    • Total Posts: 7,648
    @ohiobarbarian

    My immediate family consists of my wife, a late-boomer or Gen Xer, who is a Trotskyist, and three grown millennial stepkids, none of whom can afford their own places on solely on their own incomes. When it comes to politics, the four of them have two important things in common.

    First, they will all vote for Bernie Sanders; they don’t even know if they will vote in the general if he is not the nominee.  Second, none of them gives a shit about the current impeachment proceedings. They just don’t care.

    They all detest Trump. I know a couple of them asked me, somewhat hopefully, if this meant that Trump would finally be gone. Of course I had to tell them that the Senate will never vote to remove Trump from office so long as their voters still back Trump. So my family just shrugged and basically said, “So why bother?” If I explain that extortion is extortion and the President should be held accountable, they’ll agree, but ask why he wasn’t impeached over something important like putting kids in cages or degrading the environment or making money from killing people overseas.

    They could have gotten behind any of those things, but extorting the Ukrainian government to publicly investigate a politician they already know to be corrupt by holding up weapons sales? Meh. Who cares? Does that mean real, positive change is coming to us? If not, then STFU, we have better things to do with our time than follow this new reality TV show.

    I can’t blame them. Nor can I blame any of you who feel the same way. My family doesn’t believe any Deep State coup nonsense; they figure if there really was such a thing and it was as powerful as various friends, extended family, and internet posters made it out to be, then Trump would be long gone already. Meh, again. On things political, they care about Bernie winning and will always watch a Nina Turner clip. Impeachment? Forgettaboutit.

    The Democrats could have impeached Trump for violations of the Emoluments Clause by accepting millions of dollars from the Saudis renting his empty hotel rooms and then vetoing Bernie Sanders’ War Powers Act Resolution which said Congress wanted to cut off arms sales to that genocidal and murderous regime. But nooooo…Obama did the Libyan intervention and the Ukrainian and Honduran coups, and their donors made money off of them, and they want to be able to do that if they want to in the future. Nope, no impeachment there.

    They could have impeached Trump for diverting congressionally allocated funds from FEMA to build his worthless wall and cage more children. But noooo…the immigration crackdown is very profitable to the private for profit prison industry, and they’re Democratic donors, too. Nope, no impeachment over that.

    But when Trump holds back military equipment and arms sales to Ukraine in an obvious attempt to extort that government into opening a public investigation of Joe Biden, one of their own as well as being a good little lackey of the MIC for decades, well! That’s a bridge too far, they bleat.

    The Vichy Dems are obviously thinking, Went after one of our own, did he, and upset our donors like Raytheon! That’s the ticket! Impeach him over that and we can shut the base up(Shush! Just stop talking about arms to the Saudis and immigrants in profitable prisons–there’s an election coming and we need campaign funds!). We have the legal and moral high ground now! All the right people at all the cocktail parties say so! 

    Newsflash from Ohio, Vichy Dems. The Democratic base doesn’t care. They see a few weeks of public hearings coming, impeachment, and a meaningless trial in the Senate whose outcome is already known, and then they’ll have to hear Trump bragging about being exonerated. Meh. Does any of that help their living situation or enable them to maybe go to college or leave a job they hate but only stay at because it has less rapacious medical insurance?

    I let myself get a little wrapped up in this whole impeachment fandango, and took a dim view of whataboutism revolving around powerful politicians of the recent past. I lost sight of my own family and community’s whataboutism, with which I’m sure even those who I’ve criticized for expressing the first version and those who agree with me that Trump should be impeached will agree.

    What it all boils down to is that the impeachment process we see before us, this pitiful, narrowed-down, safe for the donors and the large corporations version that is the only one the Vichy Dems will allow, is unimportant compared to what is coming in 2020. The progressive populist movement is important. A truly tranformational candidate winning the Democratic Party nomination is important. Spreading awareness about Bolivia, Yemen, M4A, free college and student loan debt forgiveness is important. Climate change is important. Gun violence is important.

    This impeachment process? Not so much. You had your chance, Vichy Dems, but you are so bought, so corrupt, that you are afraid to really do the right things because you might lose your cushy ride. Once again, you offer us this incremental and ineffective shit. Meh. Let’s keep it real here.

    Thanks for reading and have a good weekend.

    We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

    With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

  • #226276

    tk2kewl
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    @tk2kewl

    @ohiobarbarian Well fucking done!

  • #226277

    N2Doc
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    @n2doc

    It makes sense- The thing Corrupt Dems are most afraid of is getting exposed, and so Trump’s feeble attempts at exposing their corruption is the one thing that got them fired up. The rest of us see one big corrupt family, squabbling over who farted at the dinner table.

  • #226340

    Charles
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    @charles

    Something to consider.

    If Trump is allowed to get away with blatant violations of the law like withholding $400  million in military aid unless the Ukraine prez not only investigates Biden but also was being required to publicly announce the investigation in order to inflict maximum damage ; Then what is stopping Trump from using similar tactics against Bernie?

    Are we suppose to wait until Bernie is the nominee and Trump bribes someone else to take Bernie down? It may be so late in the election that it could be the difference of winning or losing.

    Trump has shown he’ll break laws and do whatever is necessary to win and profit off being the president. And he’s not going to stop unless he’s forced to.

    Trump should have been impeached long ago and all the bribing of women he slepted with, violating the emoluments clause, obstructing justice, running a scam foundation which was forced to close, ripping off his business associates and students at his fake university etc etc etc should be heaped on top of the impeachment pile.

    This doesnt excuse any other corruption done previously or ongoing by other politicians. Those that can be brought up on charges and prosecuted should be.

    But Trump is the president. And it’s pretty obvious he’s breaking laws left and right. Let’s not let this criminal behavior continue and perhaps lead to crimes which have even greater impacts than his current ones.

    My 2 cents….

    Bernie: "Not Me. Us"

    • #226364

      Ohio Barbarian
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      @ohiobarbarian

      @charles I’ve thought Trump should have been impeached from Inauguration Day onwards. First, the Republicans did nothing, then the Democrats. And when they finally actually do  something about him, it’s over this weak sauce shit because Trump went after one of their own and stepped on their MIC donors’ toes in one great mass of Trumpian blundering.

      Personally, I support this impeachment inquiry, but it doesn’t matter to most people, and for good reason. The Senate will never vote to convict, not on this. Something like 90% of Americans say that nothing which happens here will affect how they vote next year. The Democrats could have impeached Trump on several way more powerful things, but they didn’t because if they did it might hamper their own corruption. They have no moral high ground.

      For most Americans, they’re just not that pissed off over Trump bullying some minor foreign leader into investigating Joe Biden or his spoiled brat son, or with him withholding military aid to a country most of them can’t even find on a globe.

      Consider, of all the things the Democrats had reason to impeach Trump on, why did the idiots choose that one? Because it’s the safest for them, that’s why. They don’t care about what the American people want, and a conflict with Russia isn’t on any of our Christmas lists.

      The Vichy Dems are so stupid, selfish, arrogant, elitist. Yes, they’re finally doing the right thing and impeaching Trump, but they’re doing it in a way that is calculated to expose their own corrupt practices and policies as little as possible, and it’s obvious.

      It’s also a distraction from the primary elections, because they don’t want the public to be focusing on people like Bernie Sanders. But that’s OK. That strategy won’t work, either. Most of their strategies don’t.

      We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

      With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

      • #226388

        Charles
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        @charles

        @ohiobarbarian

        I get that for many especially those who don’t live and breath politics the reasons for impeachment aren’t thrilling nor compelling.

        But this Ukraine/Biden scandal is very clear cut. Regardless of how much the Dems have bungled past efforts Trump handed them this gift on a platter. Maybe the Dems will screw this one up too but they’re going to have to try really hard.

        I’m guessing many still think it’s weak sauce that Clinton got impeached for lying about a blow job. And many at the time probably thought Nixon’s case was weak sauce. As more witnesses testify and the evidence mounts it will pretty hard to deny that Trump broke the law no matter how weak it is currently in the court of public opinion.

        All that aside would this be weak sauce if Bernie was the target instead of Biden? That’s my main point. Today it’s Biden but tomorrow it could easily be Bernie.

        Trump is a snake. If there’s one area he excels in it’s being crooked business man with an army of lawyers and plenty of money to defend his misdeeds.

        I wouldn’t underestimate what he might do since he figures he is above the law and can get away with it.

        When Trump said he could shoot someone on 5th Ave and get away with it he wasn’t joking. He was bragging…

         

         

        Bernie: "Not Me. Us"

        • #226395

          Ohio Barbarian
          Moderator
          • Total Posts: 7,648
          @ohiobarbarian

          @charles I don’t see that Bernie has anything to worry about. His life is an open book. There really is no there there. If there was, Hillary would have found it a few years ago. And what the Bidens did should be illegal.

          I completely agree with you that what Trump did regarding this Ukraine fiasco was flagrantly illegal and unconstitutional and that he should be impeached and removed from office. The problem is he won’t be removed from office, not over this. Something else may get him. Who knows? Maybe there’s something in his tax returns, but I’m reaching and I know it.

          The problem is, the Democrats are trying to nail Trump now, over this Ukraine shit, because he went after Joe Biden and held up defense contractor profits. Do you think the Vichy Dems really care about the rule of law or constitutional checks and balances? If you do, you are in the minority of Americans who think so highly of them. Most of us don’t. We don’t trust them, for good reason, and find any moral or legalistic posturing by them hypocritical and pathetic.

          After Drone Tuesdays, the endless Afghan War and Iraqi Occupation, and the Deporter-in-Chief, after Hillary’s insultingly and historically inept campaign, it’s not all that hard to figure out why.

          They are not on our team. They are not our allies. I detest Trump and I’d be delighted to see him driven from office by the Congress, but I don’t see that happening and I have more important things to worry about, like whether we have enough Hatch picante salsa for tacos tonight.

          I don’t think Trump should be absolved, no. But the Vichy Dems had their chance at achieving at least partial absolution and they blew it because they don’t want to risk their own power and positions by really looking into corruption. The public doesn’t think they’re any better than Trump, or not much better, anyhow. That’s just the way it is, man.

          The Vichy Dems could have made this impeachment something that really mattered, but they chose not to, so most Americans will just shrug, go about their lives, and hear more about Bernie from alternate media or from their kids this Thanksgiving.

          Iowa is important. This ain’t. Could have been, but it’s just not.

          We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

          With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

          • #226410

            Charles
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            @charles

            @ohiobarbarian

            I agree that the reasons the corporate Dems are doing this is because of the attack on Joe since he’s one of them and for their corporate interests at the MIC. Pelosi and the corporate Dems want nothing to do with fixing the system that they profit from.

            I certainly didn’t mean to imply there was something there in regards to Bernie. Bernie is Mr. Clean in his walk. When it comes to corrupt campaign tactics though there doesn’t need to be any there there. If one is willing to flagrantly break the law like Trump did to attack a political opponent they certainly don’t care if they lie, deceive and break the law to create the appearance of wrong doing or a flaw in a candidate.

            And it doesn’t even need to be directed straight at Bernie. It could be staff, family, running mates, his policies  etc that they choose to attack. Who knows what kind of things they might do. I wouldn’t rule out anything including intimidation, threats, lawsuits, and perhaps worse.

            Perhaps the craziest thing about Trump breaking the law to attack Biden is he really didn’t need to. Trump could have hired a former government employee in Ukraine or some company to do opposition research and hit Biden hard.

            But Trump wanted a knock out blow of having the Ukraine president announce an investigation of Biden on TV. He wasn’t content with what he had and he had a very damaging issue that would have given him a lot of leverage in the election.

            The Democrats are certainly tarnished and they’ve done themselves no favors in both their own corrupt ways and in their bogus claims in Russia Gate. And they aren’t going after Trump on the money areas because they are feeding from that same trough the Pugs are. There’s a lot of corruption.

            But here we are. And the 3 witnesses who all testified in close hearings yesterday and today have been corroborating the claims that Trump was holding up the military aid for a very public investigation of Biden. There are more witnesses to come including Ambassador Sondland whose already changed his testimony once and the White House is still blocking the bigger fish from testifying.

            Even with corruption and ineptitude on all sides of this including the Democrats there comes a point where Trump looks guilty as charged. So even if the Senate GOP wants to stick their necks out and save Trump from actual impeachment they won’t be able to save him from the court of public opinion.

            The GOP has already stated that they intend to make this a referendum on Biden so ya he’s going to suffer as well as Trump. And that doesn’t reflect well on the Democrats in general.

            But Bernie is no Biden so the impeachment hearings themselves may even help him as he is squeaky clean compared to those two. He stands out as an honest alternative. He really doesn’t need to do anything but stay above the fray…

             

            Bernie: "Not Me. Us"

  • #226356

    djean111
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    @djean111

    IMO the impeachment is just a dog and pony show that will be used by both parties for campaign purposes.  Did not hurt Clinton, will not hurt Trump.  A thoroughly corrupt institution charging corruption is quite the carnival, with quite the grotesque sideshow.

    @charles, the Clintons have done much of what you list as Trump’s transgressions, on a vastly larger scale.  And worse.   They will never ever be called to account, neither will Biden, but I am thinking they don’t want the “whatabout” stuff publicized, either.

    If Hillary and the DNC have not already tried to dig stuff up or invent stuff about Bernie, I would be astonished.   And I think they would offer whatever they have to Trump, if Bernie is the candidate.

    I will not vote for a Vichy Dem. Period. As always, I decide who is a Vichy Dem.

    Bernie's ISSUES or Bust!

    • #226372

      Charles
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      @charles

      @djean111

      Impeachment of Clinton cost him millions in legal fees. Plus his reputation took a big hit. It also hurt Gore and the Democrats in 2000 and gave us Bush, Cheney, the Iraq war, endless war, and sky rocketing deficits.

      The Clinton’s knew how to skirt the law so much of what they did can’t be prosecuted. That doesnt make it right and the laws should be tougher. And it wouldn’t be surprising if there are instances where they still broke the law. Trouble is in those instances they usually involved powerful corporations and the Pugs were feeding from the same trough.

      When former Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy basically legalized multiple forms of soft corruption it makes it extremely easy for politicians to milk the system.

      ~Snip~

      Poorly written and atrociously reasoned, Citizens United rests on three simple, absurd precepts: Money is speech; corporations are people; and corruption is OK so long as it is sanctioned. OK, the third one isn’t so simple, but it sure is absurd. It pertains to what Justice Kennedy, the opinion’s author, calls “soft” corruption, by which he means the entire system: big donors, lobbyists, lush retreats, revolving doors, exorbitant speaking fees. The whole shebang.

      Kennedy says that unlike “hard” corruption (bribery, mainly), “soft” corruption harms and offends no one, so Congress can’t regulate it. The issue hadn’t come up at trial, so there was nothing about it in pleadings. There’s tons of data about how evil it is and how much we hate it, but Kennedy ignored it. He offered no proof to support his “finding.” He just said it was so and now it’s the law…..

      Read more:

      https://www.salon.com/2016/02/23/its_the_corruption_stupid_hillarys_too_compromised_to_see_what_donald_trump_understands/

       

      So yes. The Clinton’s got away with a great deal. But they were savvy enough to know how to do it and still be quasi legal for the most part.

      If they crossed line in ways where the GOP had grounds to attack without it coming back on them they surely would do so. Heck they tried hard enough with Benghazi. Yet when it came to the important stuff like her foundation and corporations and foriegn governments they didn’t do squat because they are all doing the same things.

      And yes. A lot about this impeachment process sucks on the Democrats part. But that doesn’t absolve Trump.

      Will the Clinton’s try to sabotage Bernie if he’s the nominee? Who knows. Maybe. But if they do and they get caught bribing someone to create dirt they should be prosecuted. It should be obvious even if they don’t  corporations and others certainly will. And the progressives need to be vigilant and demand justice if any can be shown to break the law in their efforts to do so.

      If Trump gets impeached that’s at least some incentive for those trying to sabotage Bernie to consider their approach and possible liabilities if they cross the line.

      That may be wishful thinking but it’s  a guaranteed certainty that if we don’t start dealing with corruption NOW it will continue and grow.

      As for Biden his reputation is being put through the ringer thanks to the exposure of his son’s involvement in Ukraine during these impeachment hearings. So on that account that’s  a side bonus from the impeachment. Trump gets his just rewards and Biden gets exposed for his corruption be it quasi legal or not. He’s toast.

       

      Bernie: "Not Me. Us"

  • #226360

    salemcourt
    Member
    • Total Posts: 553
    @salemcourt

    Good, recommended to the daily radical.  Whataboutism is frowned upon only on sites like SV.  It should be welcomed here.  We cannot make any difference in the rethugs.  We can only hope to convert democrats.  This can be done only if we highlight the flaws of Vichy Democrats at every turn.

  • #226380

    jbnw
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    @jbnw

    Yes.  I think impeachment has just handed Trump the Presidency in 2020 by using Ukraine as grounds.  Joe Biden pressured Ukraine ssuccessfully by threatening to withhold a billion dollars. As the Ukrainian president has said he hasn’t felt pressured, the Republican base will rally around the President over a politically motivated impeachment.  I am not pro-Trump but impeachment over Ukraine doesn’t motivate me.  Healthcare and income equality does.

  • #226398

    Mr. Mickeys Mom
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    @mrmickeysmom

    Recommended for the Daily Radical @deadpool

    I’ll BET you that everything the Democrats try to throw at Trump at this point can be met with, “Oh, yeah? You mean like Hillary as SOS currying favors for whoever donated to the Clinton Foundation?
    One of my favorite paragraphs-

    The Vichy Dems are so stupid, selfish, arrogant, elitist. Yes, they’re finally doing the right thing and impeaching Trump, but they’re doing it in a way that is calculated to expose their own corrupt practices and policies as little as possible, and it’s obvious.

    Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

    • #226428

      Ohio Barbarian
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      @ohiobarbarian

      @mrmickeysmom I’d rather bet on the Cleveland Browns making the playoffs this year than take that bet, and they’d practically have to win out for that to happen.

      We’ll be hearing nothing from Republicans for months but “I know you are but what am I?” and “What about (insert Corruptocrat here)?” Ugh. Oh, and thanks for the scary thought of Hillary being brought up again and again. You’re right, though, she will be.

      I see only two bright spots. First, this stuff will definitely lead to Trump Fatigue with most voters. Second, it helps a candidate like Bernie who has no ties to standard fare Washington DC corruption. Biden, Patrick, Bloomberg, not so much.

      We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

      With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

  • #226803

    MizzGrizz
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    • Total Posts: 431
    @mizzgrizz

    Ohio Barbarian,I suspect I’d have a lot in common with the members of your family.

    Like them,I too see this impeachment circus as basically a dog and pony show.Political theater to make the base think the established Democrats give a damn about muscleing another country.

    I might be more of an impeachment supporter if the same ones howling for it were also howling for Biden’s head,since he basically did the same thing.But it’s more like they hate Trump so much they want to impeach him first and find a crime later.And that they’re all such spoiled brats they can’t wait a year to try and get him out of office at the ballot box—with a candidate who could beat Trump in a landslide,and we all know who that candidate is.

    If they want so badly to enforce the rule of law,then let them charge Biden and his thoroughly worthless son. Then I might pay some attention.Otherwise,it’s worthless.Doesn’t give people health insurance,or bring the troops home,or break up the big banks or repeal corporate charters.All of which desperately need done.

     

  • #231561

    Enthusiast
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    @enthusiast

    I confess, I would fit right in, in your family.

    I would like to remind you that U.S. health insurance companies do not contribute anything to health care. They are only a PARASITIC middle man receiving an undeserved cut of "FREE MONEY".

    Me

  • #232123

    rampart
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    • Total Posts: 436
    @rampart

    @ohio barbarian makes many goof points as does @charles

    but trump is do incredibly destructive of everything he touches that if there is any possibility of removing him, even for the wrong crime, that chance must be taken,

    if there is a “deep state” i’d like to remind everyone that we know exactly what a deep state coup looks like.

     

    • #232178

      Ohio Barbarian
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      • Total Posts: 7,648
      @ohiobarbarian

      @rampart I’m replying to this only because I started the thread. I’m in the minority here, and I’m not going to debate this topic. I’m just going to say I’m convinced the CIA had absolutely no reason at the time to kill JFK, that he was in fact killed by a lone gunman, that RFK lied about what happened in the Cuban Missile Crisis(proven facts: RFK wanted to invade Cuba and didn’t say anything about the assassination until he had decided to run for President himself; Noam Chomsky agrees with me, BTW) and that my perspective on why certain things happen will be different from yours for that reason. We start from different places.

      I see neither the CIA nor the Russians behind every bush, and there is no deep state conspiracy to unseat an elected president. But Happy Thanksgiving, anyway!

      We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

      With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

      • #232447

        Enthusiast
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        @enthusiast

        The CIA simply has not disclosed their reasons.

        I would like to remind you that U.S. health insurance companies do not contribute anything to health care. They are only a PARASITIC middle man receiving an undeserved cut of "FREE MONEY".

        Me

    • #232708

      Mr. Mickeys Mom
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 1,600
      @mrmickeysmom

      @rampart (any further discussion will no doubt have to occur at CS), but since OB, who is so well-read on other topics, has yet devoted the necessary time to understand forensics of 11/22/1963. He, therefore, can’t properly weigh in on a topic that is outside of his belief system.  Let’s just leave it at that, and continue it over “there”.

      Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

      • #232795

        Ohio Barbarian
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        • Total Posts: 7,648
        @ohiobarbarian

        @mrmickeysmom Oh, I’ve studied the forensics. I’ve just reached a different conclusion than you have, which makes the whole thing much less causative for me, which means that on some things we will just see things differently. I just accept that, for we don’t see things differently on most things that matter to me now and will in the future, so that’s good enough for me.

        We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

        With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

      • #232820

        rampart
        Member
        • Total Posts: 436
        @rampart

        @ mr. mickeys mom thank you mom, I understand. I have highest respect for the barbarian and overstepped the boundary of cs. thanks very much and apologies to any offended.

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