Barbarian at the Gates of the Rational National, or an Open Letter to David Doel

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    • #358601
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 17,112

      Dear David Doel,

      I just watched your recent video entitled “Susan Sarandon Shuts Down Twitter Crap.” I was expecting it to be just a cutsie Twitter review, but no, you went way beyond that. In fact you went where you have no standing to go in the first place, and then used a really stupid argument to persuade me to vote for Joe Biden in the second.

      You have no standing to tell me, or any other American, how to vote because you are Canadian and cannot possibly know what it is like to be a working class American in 2020, any more than this American knows what it’s like to live as a poor damned bloody Palestinian in Gaza right now. I’m not going to listen to you any more than I will listen to an Australian, an Englishman, an Israeli or a Russian or a Swede. By that same token, you should certainly be free of my own government or media talking head telling you that you should vote for Trudeau. That’s why I’m so against American interference in the internal affairs of other nations. With me, you can’t have the one without the other.

      You’re a Canadian. You don’t have to worry about health care, losing your job, or keeping a roof over your head. You don’t know what it’s like here, so you don’t get to even attempt to tell me how to vote, or to not vote, or do whatever I think best this November as far as I’m concerned. Yet, you did it anyway, and even worse, you did it badly.

      You argue that voting is a tool, and that in this election we have only two choices, and that the only rational choice is to use that tool to pry the current neo-Fascist asshole in the White House out because Joe Biden will be easier for the left to oppose once he is in office. First, you are ignoring the fact that Joe Biden is also a Fascist, and his policies will be no better on police thuggery, or climate change, or the economy than Trump’s, and his foreign policy is likely to be worse. He said he wanted to increase defense spending just the other day! Wake up and smell the smoke, man.

      Second, and this is the really stupid part of your argument, by telling me that the only responsible use of my vote is to use it as a tool, then you are forcing me to make a choice between a maximum four more years of Trump vs. eight to 12 years of neoliberal Vichy Democrat rule. Since, from where I live, both are just as bad, since 4 years of Trump shit isn’t as bad as at least 8 years of Vichy Democrat shit, if I listened to you I would take Ho Chi Minh’s advice and take the lesser evil period of time. (Ho opted for the French to stay in Vietnam for another few years over submitting to a Chinese occupation, which he figured would last a century.)

      And I thought you came across as morally certain and somewhat condescending as well. Like, how can any reasonable person not see the inherent wisdom of my position! Well, that’s really easy for you to say.

      Your lifestyle doesn’t stand to be wrecked when Joe Biden dismantles Social Security. Mine faces utter ruination. Probably none of your relatives will die in whatever new imperial war Joe Biden gets us into to try to distract attention from his domestic policy disasters, while some of mine could easily be on the front lines. Neither does that of the people you cite as such splendid and impeccable advocates of Vote Blue No Matter Who–Cornel West, Susan Sarandon, Marianne Williamson. They all speak from a position of privilege, and so do you.

      I’m a working class American. I speak for myself, for my family, and for many members of my community with whom  I work and live and suffer alongside. We saw rampant election fraud in March that you ignored. We know that our electoral system is broken beyond repair. It is rotten to the core with corruption and fraud. We also know that by choosing to vote in such a system also validates that system, and many of us see such validation as useless at best and an act of acquiescence to the oligarchy at worst.

      Why do you think so many Americans don’t vote? Do you think they’re just being stupid, ignorant Americans? You’ve said yourself that at least 40% of us don’t vote because we don’t see how voting helps us in our lives. Voting for Joe Biden will not help us in our lives at all if we’re working class. Sarandon and West will be just fine no matter who wins. I honestly think my family would be better off in the long run if Trump wins, because 4 years of shit is better than 8 or 12.

      Fortunately for you, I have some honor and some pride, and am a socialist to boot, so there is no way I will vote for any Fascist. Just be thankful for that, and telling us how we should use voting and for whom to vote.

      At least I’m linking to your video. Some here may even agree with you:

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

    • #358610
      N2Doc
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 8,277

      One thing I will disagree with you on, OB, is the length of time Biden/harris would be in office if they win. I think it is very likely that they will fuck things up so badly that people will demand a Tom Cotton, or some other Trumpist, to replace them in 2024. 4 years of war, austerity, and possibly destruction of Social Security will do that. Not that such a result is something to look forwards to. I also firmly believe that if Biden loses this time, 2024 will see a repeat with Cuomo selected by the DNC. No better. But I certainly agree with the rest of your post.

    • #358626
      djean111
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,627

      Thank you.

      And yeah, I am amazed that anyone at fucking all – here, Canada, wherever – feels they should be able to tell me how to vote.  That’s some entitled arrogance.  Especially the vote for the blue carnival barkers who think they make a dent with condescension and sarcasm.  Perhaps they don’t understand that their opinion is just their opinion, not some pearl of wisdom or whatever, that others have been longing to read.   Everybody has an opinion, of course.  But everybody does not expect their opinion to rule others’ choices, and on top of that, get all pissy when obviously that is not going to happen.

    • #358627
      Pam2
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 6,272

      She knew better than to vote for Clinton in 2016.

       

    • #358634
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 17,112

      @n2doc I also recognize the possibility that there will be no election in 2024, because the current federal government might no longer exist. Difficult to see is the future, but the last one-term President was Poppy Bush, and we haven’t had three consecutive four year terms by different political parties since Grover Cleveland and Benjamin Harrison.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

    • #358649
      Mr. Mickeys Mom
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 4,298

      Both parties suck, Johnson (Tim Black’s great commentary)… Sarandon has been beaten down, perhaps to the point where she now has the inclusion of supporting the MPP post election.

      I still do not see the wisdom of voting Biden. That makes me a traitor, just like I was supposed to have been in 2016 when voting for Jill Stein. My state Democratic party is even doing their part by handing out lies to all calling in to complain about their actively working to leave out the Green party ballot in PA. Fucking liars, all of them. And, here we are… 4 more years of Trump? Well, who said so? Even though the Green party dwindles down in their efforts to stand and be counted, my vote is my choice. I’m old enough to know how foolish it is to expect anything out of the Democratic party ANY MORE.

      Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

    • #358661
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 17,112

      @mrmickeysmom

      we need a revolution johnson - Fitted Cotton/Poly T-Shirt by Next Level

      As for what the Democrats are doing to the Greens, please see my post of Krystal Ball’s take on that subject in Multimedia if you haven’t already. They’re not even trying to hide their hypocrisy, not to mention stupidity, anymore. They really think that if the “Republican-backed Greens,” as Rachel Maddow is calling them, aren’t on the ballot then all of those progressive voters will vote for Biden because they somehow own our votes. They have astounding arrogance.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

    • #358686
      ThouArtThat
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,811

      @ohiobarbarian

      Hi ob,

      Yep – I have one Canadian acquaintance.  He was quite perplexed when I explained my present position on Biden, the DNC and America in general.  I did my best outlining the difference between America sold on television and reality on the ground.  That he did not grasp the message is instructive.  Such is the effectiveness of American propaganda around the world and even a short 100 miles to the Canadian border.

      TAT

      PS – https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/untold-history-of-the-united-states-oliver-stone/

      The essence of normality is the refusal of reality.

      - Ernest Becker

      Politics is the entertainment division of the Military Industrial Complex.

      - Frank Zappa

      Rights aren't rights if someone can take them away. They're privileges.
      That's all we've ever had in this country, is a bill of temporary privileges.

      - George Carlin

      Sooner or later we all sit down to a banquet of consequences.

      - Robert Louis Stevenson

    • #358705
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 17,112

      @thouartthat The sheer propaganda power of American advertising is often underestimated. In a Texas public high school, we were taught the Seven Methods of Advertising, and how they were designed to manipulate our emotions and our thinking. That was in the 70s, and conservatives first criticized it as Communist.

      What they really objected to was high school kids being taught critical thinking skills that could potentially lower their profits. I’m sure that course was gone before the 80s were over.

      Anyway, the version of America constantly broadcast to other countries does not convey the entire, or the true, picture of what is going on. We know because we are living through it, and it is radically different than anything in living memory. The old belief that elections can bring needed change in “world’s oldest democracy” no longer has anything to do with our current reality.

      It is a difficult truth, but it’s as real as it gets.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

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