Bernie is pissing me off.

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    • #28743
      ZimInSeattle
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,597

      "Poverty is the parent of revolution and crime" - Aristotle "The more I see of the moneyed peoples, the more I understand the guillotine" - George Bernard Shaw "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, will make violent revolution inevitable" - JFK #SurviveAndRevolt

    • #28745
      N2Doc
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 7,141

      Sometimes it all seems hopeless

    • #28748
      elias39
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,573
    • #28752
      Charles
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,595

      Bernie’s trying to win and being cautious with his words. He obviously is worried about being portrayed as a far far left socialist. He is still against intervention but the wording is stiff it is hard to take. Very unfortunate.

      Fox came out with very old clips of him praising Russia and it might look bad to some. He’s might be trying to distance himself from that.

      Tulsi will be the voice on foreign policy in this election which is awesome as we haven’t had one since Kucinich.  So glad she’s running. She’s got cred as a vet and her message against regime change wars is strong.

      Bernie: "Not Me. Us"

      • #28801
        Mr. Mickeys Mom
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 3,288

        All the more reason he should stop playing rope a DOPE with the strong arm of what has been continuing to ruin every member of the Democratic Party.

        It was bad enough see people like Feinstein come out and tell a bunch of informed and articulate kids that they didn’t know how to get legislation passed, expressing the real sentiment of theirs as an ultimatum (as IF… kids were really saying, “It’s my way or the highway”)… It bad enough that we have fucking clueless people in the Senate, but Bernie…

        FFS, if you want our support, then fucking stop this nonsense and get back to facts that go along with all those issues.

        We are not going anywhere unless they listen to the science behind our priorities. People (ME) don’t believe that bullshit anymore, Bernie.

        Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

    • #28755
      Cold Mountain Trail
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 8,440

      I’m a Bernie bros and I think he could do better on this one.  he does appear to be completely buying into the mainstream narrative.

    • #28781
      doh1304
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,163

      One more fukkkup Bernie and I’m through. Caution is one thing, cowardice in the face of the enemy is another. #notinmyfoxhole.

      • #28918
        glinda
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 797

        And you will vote for whom? Seriously. He has F()&)^ed up much at all. Have to be careful of whaat you read or read into things. I suspect if he won and Tulsi was VP she would be attempting peaceful methods.

        Animals know more than we do.

        • #29004
          doh1304
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 1,163

          Are you really playing the “where are they going to go?” card? Seriously?

          This isn’t the first time he’s sounded like a vichy, and I’ve already cut him a lot more slack than I did for Obama. There’s a limit to the number of times I’ll accept an explanation, and I’ve just about reached that limit.

        • #29247
          ravensong
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 2,074

          This humanitarian aid ploy is a classic illustration of a wolf in sheep’s clothing, the creepy stranger in the trenchcoat on a dark street saying, “Hop into my car, little girl, and I’ll give you some delicious candy”.

          I’m pretty sure the people of Venezuela are against any US intervention tactics that are employed by the US for the purpose of converting the sovereign nation of Venezuela into US/global oil company colony.

          Bernie will lose the confidence of part of his base by advocating for US/global oil interest interventions, of any kind, that are intended to directly or indirectly bring about regime change in Venezuela.

          I’m sticking with the progressive viewpoint: No intervention intended to bring about regime time.

          “A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by a majority.” ~ Booker T. Washington

          The truth is, there’s no such thing as being “anti-Fascist.” Either you are a decent human being with a conscience, or you are a fascist.
          ~ Unknown

    • #28782
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 13,652

      Just yesterday he said the Venezuelan people must figure this out for themselves, and that there should be no American intervention. It is perhaps not coincidence that Maduro just welcomed humanitarian aid into Venezuela–from the European Union, before Bernie said this.

      Jimmy Dore is overreacting again. What is wrong with saying Maduro should put the needs of his people first? What’s wrong with saying the Venezuelan government should refrain from violence against protesters, especially when they just killed two of them for fuck’s sake! Source there’s RT, hardly an American imperialist propaganda outlet.

      Think about it. This is just surfing the daily political waves. It doesn’t mean Bernie has changed his position against American military intervention of any type in Venezuela.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      If Democrats don’t stand for the people, why should people stand for them?--Jim Hightower

      • #28820
        Bernin4U
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 398

        “Maduro is effed up, but still we must not invade” is a chickenshit position.

        It’s about way more than “war or not war.” We’re already waist deep in this. The ONLY acceptable position is based on the truth that we’ve been at economic war with them for decades, and it needs to stop. The sanctions and withholding of their assets need to stop. The lies about what’s happened in their country since Chavez need to stop.

        All Bernie is really saying is, “they have serious problems, but we shouldn’t use our military to help.” Someone else can just as easily say, “they have serious problems, and yes we should use our military.”

        But both are wrong. The only right answer is, “they have serious problems because we are doing our best to cause them.”

        We’ll only get the right solution when we’re honest about the problem. Bernie is not being honest about the problem.

        Sign the petition to draft Jesse #Ventura2020
        https://peopleforjesse.com/

        Write him in for the WA primary
        https://greenpartywashington.org/2020/05/29/gpwa-ballot-for-presidential-nominee-and-state-officers/

      • #29152
        carrotguy
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 453

        agreed – sanders only called for allowing aid to reach venezuela.   this is a sticky situation and he has to say something.   this was a safe thing to say.   it will be nice to hear any opportunity to expand on his foreign policy.   foreign policy may be tough on bernie, since some if it will run counter to our economic interests.    using the military to build infrastructure as job training might be feasible.

    • #28784
      Stockholmer
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 500

      Bernie has always been shit at foreign policy. For once you can SLAM my fucked up government too. Our shitty coalition Riksdag is recognising Guaido as the legit prezzie.

      The cost of doing business with shitfuck centre right parties all to keep SD iso’ed from even a sniff of even a non representative (ie. confidence and supply) part of any coalition.

      I fully expect the neolibcons here will soon start screeching again how Sweden needs to join NATO. The centrist pro zio crowd is already screaming how we should de-recognise Palestinian government.

      Bad guys are winning all over the planet.

      • #28796
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 13,652

        This is a meaningless political move in the larger scheme of things. What Bernie said yesterday is far more important. Sanders is running for President of the fucking United States, which office, as you have often said, has global repercussions.

        Yesterday he said that there should be no American military intervention of any sort and caught all sorts of imperialist flak for refusing to call Maduro a dictator. He has yet to call Maduro a dictator. We have to go literal here. Maduro should put the interests of his people first? The Maduro government should not kill protesters? What’s wrong with that?

        How is this any different from what Sanders has said about Trump? What’s he supposed to do, say the Maduro government should mow right wing protesters down? Of course not.

        Yet Sanders’ position is unchanged, which is that the Venezuelan people need to find their own destiny without outside interference. This could be a message to Maduro: Shooting protesters makes it harder for American politicians to oppose military intervention, which is nothing less than political reality.

        And I was very disappointed in your Rikstag’s decision. Whatever happened to good, old-fashioned, reliable Swedish neutrality, anyway?

         

        It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

        If Democrats don’t stand for the people, why should people stand for them?--Jim Hightower

        • #28909
          ZimInSeattle
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 1,597

          You and others here are right that if you just take Bernie’s tweet literally, it is rather innocuous. The problem I have with it is what’s omitted. I know Bernie is walking a tightrope on this one, but when you call for aid to be let into a country, which everyone knows comes with guns and ammunition for the opposition, while at the same time applying $30M per day sanctions on said country, the hypocrisy meter just explodes. Bernie needs to quit splitting hairs and come down a lot closer to Tulsi on this. I really wonder what Jimmy Carter is thinking about all this?

          "Poverty is the parent of revolution and crime" - Aristotle "The more I see of the moneyed peoples, the more I understand the guillotine" - George Bernard Shaw "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, will make violent revolution inevitable" - JFK #SurviveAndRevolt

          • #28912
            Ohio Barbarian
            Moderator
            • Total Posts: 13,652

            To the best of my knowledge, Bernie Sanders has never supported sanctions against Venezuela, so why mention that here? Again, today he was in a tough spot after Venezuelan security forces shot and killed two protesters, according to RT. If he said nothing, he would have gotten pilloried.

            At any rate, this will be forgotten a year from now.

            It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

            If Democrats don’t stand for the people, why should people stand for them?--Jim Hightower

            • #28919
              ZimInSeattle
              Participant
              • Total Posts: 1,597

              I figured Bernie would be against the sanctions. But to say Maduro must let aid in to combat an economic crisis largely created by our sanctions is just so hypocritical. It’s not a crisis of scarcity, it’s inflation pricing the poor out of some necessities. Bernie omitting the fact that the UN, Red Cross, and a coalition of more than 50 other nations are supplying aid and/or supporting Maduro is not a good look in my view.

              "Poverty is the parent of revolution and crime" - Aristotle "The more I see of the moneyed peoples, the more I understand the guillotine" - George Bernard Shaw "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, will make violent revolution inevitable" - JFK #SurviveAndRevolt

          • #28915
            Charles
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 1,595

            @ziminseattle

            The Carter Center response:

             

            Carter Center: Venezuelan Democracy at Critical Juncture

            February 04, 2019
            FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
            Contact: In Atlanta, Soyia Ellison, soyia.ellison@cartercenter.org

            (En español)

            ATLANTA — Venezuela is undergoing an historic moment as it attempts to reconcile deep political divisions that have undermined its democracy.

            The National Assembly that was freely elected in 2015, and subsequently disbanded by President Nicolas Maduro, has declared Juan Guaidó president of Venezuela through an interpretation of the presidential succession clause in the constitution approved in 1999 under President Hugo Chavez. This is a Venezuelan struggle that has attracted the attention and involvement of key states in the international community as well as the Organization of American States and the United Nations.

            In discussions about the status of democracy and elections in Venezuela, some have made misleading comments about the Carter Center’s past involvement in elections there.

            “In 2012, I applauded Venezuela’s use of electronic voting machines as exemplary in the world,” said former U.S. President Jimmy Carter. “That characterization since has been misused by Nicolas Maduro to suggest a broad validation of Venezuela’s election system as a whole and of subsequent elections that The Carter Center did not observe. In fact, The Carter Center and others routinely have expressed concern about government interference in recent electoral processes. The Carter Center has not observed elections formally in Venezuela since 2004.”

            The Carter Center supports the valiant efforts of the Venezuelan people to resolve a political conflict that has resulted in economic devastation, a humanitarian crisis, and an exodus of refugees. This is a critical juncture for the Venezuelan people who are calling for democracy.

            https://www.cartercenter.org/news/pr/venezuela-020419.html

            Bernie: "Not Me. Us"

          • #29112
            doh1304
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 1,163

            I don’t think that JC (interesting initials) has said anything himself on the issue, but the Carter Foundation has called the Venezuelan elections “the fairest and most honest in the world” while refusing requests to even try to monitor American elections.

            Oops! See above. I stand corrected. (American elections are still hopeless however.

    • #28785
      RufusTFirefly
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,285

      Perhaps instead he should say “I’ll shatter the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds”?

      • #28791
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 13,652

        It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

        If Democrats don’t stand for the people, why should people stand for them?--Jim Hightower

      • #28802
        Mr. Mickeys Mom
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 3,288

        Oh, RufusT…   … EVERYONE should understand the meaning of that statement, as it’s in our face now.

        Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

    • #28789
      elias39
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,573

      I give him credit for calling out the US colonialism of the 70s and 80s.  IE he DOES NOT support a US inspired coup.

    • #28813
      Bernin4U
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 398

      This is so pissing me off too.

      Bernie’s chance to walk the walk, and leave the clones in the dust.

      Tulsi gets it right, but she doesn’t get to have the megaphone of a Bernie or AOC.

      Tillman’s essay was excellent. This is NOT about judging Maduro. That’s strictly a trap. It’s simply about stating the facts.

      Goddammit Bernie, you’re usually so much smarter than this! Stop waffling, and start winning on the facts, like you normally do. It’s not like the voters want another war, just like they don’t want crap wages or crap health care. So what’s the damn problem?!

      Sign the petition to draft Jesse #Ventura2020
      https://peopleforjesse.com/

      Write him in for the WA primary
      https://greenpartywashington.org/2020/05/29/gpwa-ballot-for-presidential-nominee-and-state-officers/

    • #28816
      algernon
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 539

      Oh, fuck Jimmy Dore.

      He has never impressed me, ever, except as being that alter-guy.

      Not funny.

      Like Maher, there’s something there that doesn’t compute.

    • #28817
      jbnw
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,472

      Aid is one thing; regime change is another.

    • #28835
      eridani
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 5,534

      As Trump Pushes for Overthrow in Venezuela, Sanders Warns Against Repeating History’s Mistake

      https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/02/22/trump-pushes-overthrow-venezuela-sanders-warns-against-repeating-historys-mistake

      In his response to comments by Shalala and others, Sanders’ deputy chief of staff Ari Rabin-Havt said that such arguments for intervention—without taking into account the consequences—represent “the long and horrific history of American politicians imposing their will on the people of Latin America.” His boss, Robin-Havt reiterated, “stands with the Venezuelan people to demand free and fair elections and for self-determination for all people around the world.”

      Ben Rhodes, meanwhile, who served as deputy national security advisor under former President Barack Obama and no dove when it comes to U.S. foreign policy, appeared to agree with those calling Shalala’s remarks a “bit of an overreaction” and warned that it remains very possible to be critical of the Maduro government—as Sanders has been—while still warning against another U.S.-backed overthrow of a foreign government.

      “It is possible to think that a) Venezuelans would be much better off without Maduro, and b) Trump’s policy (and bluster) is creating the impression of U.S.-imposed regime change which raises lots of risks, including military intervention,” Rhodes said in a four-part thread on Twitter on Friday morning.

      While others made clear their skepticism of Rhodes as a reliable voice of anti-interventionist wisdom, journalist Glenn Greenwald gave credit to the comments even as he noted their “(pleasantly) surprising source”:

      Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

      • #28913
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 13,652

        Rhodes is just expressing imperial realpolitik here. Armed American intervention in Venezuela, either by the Marines or by proxy, will cause massive ripple effects that are not in the longterm American national interests from either a progressive or a conservative perspective.

        It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

        If Democrats don’t stand for the people, why should people stand for them?--Jim Hightower

    • #28857
      Leftward Swing
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 48

      People are up in arms because they read too much into shit.

      It really IS that simple.

      Nothing Bernie said is “outrageous” and if people stopped and actually read what Bernie tweeted VERBATIM, they’d see it because it’s very clear.

       

      Bernie’s concern is the people.

      C’mon this is BERNIE we’re talking about here people! Not Hillary.

      You know, the guy who;

       

      *Arrested for protesting for civil rights

      *Voted against Iraq

      *Marched with fast food workers

      *Marched with auto workers

      *Marched with Disney & Amazon workers

      *The first to call for ending mass incarceration & cash bail

       

      on and on.

       

      Bernie’s concern is what it always has been; THE PEOPLE. 

      And what he tweeted shows that EXACT concern.

       

      Get your heads on straight folks.

       

      Follow me on Twitter! @LeftwardSwing
       

      • #28914
        ZimInSeattle
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,597

        There is however the first part of the above tweet which in my view is lacking:

        "Poverty is the parent of revolution and crime" - Aristotle "The more I see of the moneyed peoples, the more I understand the guillotine" - George Bernard Shaw "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, will make violent revolution inevitable" - JFK #SurviveAndRevolt

      • #29120
        doh1304
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,163

        “Nothing Bernie said is “outrageous” and if people stopped and actually read what Bernie tweeted VERBATIM, they’d see it because it’s very clear.”

        And the MSM will be scrupulous to report his words VERBATIM and people are certain to remember his meaning perfectly and are sure to remember and call out anyone who takes his words out of context.

        Tulsi has the idea: be simple and direct and blunt, invite the criticism, and address the criticism. They’re imperialistic warmongers – expose them and defeat then.

    • #28860
      peacecorps
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,892

      Hardly earth-shattering from Bernie.

      Every national government should “put the needs of its people first” and “refrain from violence against protesters”.  There is a “humanitarian crisis”.

      Everyone knows that Trump/Bolton aid strategy is pure politics – just as was their reluctance to send aid to Puerto Rico.

      ‘He is not going to be the nominee’: Dems slam Sanders over Maduro stance

      The just-announced 2020 contender declines to say whether the socialist Venezuelan dictator should go.

      “He is not going to be the nominee of the Democratic Party. He has demonstrated again that he does not understand this situation,” Rep. Donna Shalala, a Miami Democrat who represents Venezuelan exiles and, told POLITICO. “I absolutely disagree with his imprecision in not saying Maduro must go.” Shalala has filed legislation aimed at helping Venezuelan immigrants.

      … when he was asked whether he recognized Guaidó as the legitimate leader of the country, Sanders answered, “No.”

      … That is a decision of the Venezuelan people.

      https://www.politico.com/story/2019/02/21/bernie-sanders-venezuela-maduro-1179636

      Too ‘socialist’ for some, not enough for others. Be yourself, Bernie.

      National problems (slavery/racism, income inequality, pathetic health care, weak unions) are not solved with more states' rights. Global problems (climate change, migration, trade, war, pandemics) are not solved with more national sovereignty.

      A CEO, an American worker and an immigrant sit at a table with a dozen cookies in front of them. The CEO grabs 11 of them, then leans over and warns the worker, "Watch out for the immigrant. He is trying to get your cookie."

    • #28877
      incognito
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,696

      I just watched Max Blumenthal and Ben Norton (in Venezuela) last night doing an interview with a Venezuelan journalist. All of them said THERE IS NO HUMANITARIAN CRISIS in Venezuela. Period.

      This shit needs to be nipped in the bud. Maduro needs to stay strong and fight with his people and politicians need to stop repeating the propaganda.

       

      • #28908
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 13,652

        Was that the one where Blumenthal went into grocery stores that were more fully stocked than some stores in the United States? And open air markets loaded with sellers hawking produce?

        Blumenthal said that it isn’t the availability of food that’s the problem; it’s the inflation caused by American sanctions.

        It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

        If Democrats don’t stand for the people, why should people stand for them?--Jim Hightower

        • #28960
          incognito
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 3,696

          No, this was Max, Ben and a journalist from Venezuela sitting in an “upscale hotel” (Max’s words) just discussing exactly what’s going on now. Here’s the video..it was posted on Moderate Rebels’ YouTube channel:

          • #28969
            Ohio Barbarian
            Moderator
            • Total Posts: 13,652

            Thanks. I must have misremembered, if you’ll pardon the Bushism.

            It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

            If Democrats don’t stand for the people, why should people stand for them?--Jim Hightower

    • #28895
      bazukhov
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,603

      Yikes!  Bernie wants the government to stop shooting protesters and allow humanitarian aid!

      He must be a commie socialist or something!

       

      Tell me, great captain, how do the angels sleep when the devil leaves his porch light on? Tom Waites

      • #28905
        incognito
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 3,696

        Elliot Abrams has a bad habit of including guns and ammo in packages that are supposed to be “aid” for the people. IF it was the government that shot people trying to get the aid, that would horrible, but was it really the government? I’ll look to Max Blumenthal, Ben Norton and Abby Martin for the TRUTH on that…not the U.S. government’s propaganda networks.

        I wouldn’t accept Aid from the USAID either! They aid in these government illegal invasions…and let Elliot Abrams smuggle in arms.

        Maduro is right to not trust the U.S. government. Why would he? We’re trying to steal his oil and every other resource.

    • #28936
      Sanders Independent
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 58

      This is a colossal misread by Bernie supporters I am sad to say.  Bernie is not calling for a coup or any kind of US military intervention in Venezuela.  In fact, he has clearly stated the opposite.  From a purely humanitarian perspective what living compassionate human being would not want to see the Venezuelan people get humanitarian aid?

      Yes, I understand how the Trump administration is using this to foment a potential US backed civil war in Venezuela, but does anybody seriously believe that Bernie supports this?  Also, if this war were to happen, I am pretty darn sure that Venezuela has a missile that just might reach Mara Lago.

      If you are calling out Bernie for being compassionate about the well being of people, then you really should check yourself, Jimmy Dore included and I am a fan.

       

      formerly SandersDem @Squibbles on Twitter

      • #28944
        Bernin4U
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 398

        The compassion is being weaponized. Which I’ve read has been an extremely effective propaganda technique of the empire since the Spanish Civil War.

        We are the ones trying to strangle them with one hand, then claiming to offer help with the other. We are not, and were never, the good guys here.

        The amount of aid we’ve offered (which the UN and Red Cross have both condemned) is no more than what we are blocking from them in revenue every single day. It’s pure propaganda.

        Bernie is not telling the truth of the problem here. And without that, there can’t be a proper solution.

        Sign the petition to draft Jesse #Ventura2020
        https://peopleforjesse.com/

        Write him in for the WA primary
        https://greenpartywashington.org/2020/05/29/gpwa-ballot-for-presidential-nominee-and-state-officers/

      • #28945
        ZimInSeattle
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,597

        I don’t think anyone thinks Bernie supports the coup attempt. But omitting key facts about our sanctions largely causing the crisis and other no-strings-attached aid getting in, is hypocritical in my view.

        "Poverty is the parent of revolution and crime" - Aristotle "The more I see of the moneyed peoples, the more I understand the guillotine" - George Bernard Shaw "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, will make violent revolution inevitable" - JFK #SurviveAndRevolt

    • #28951
      Sanders Independent
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 58

      True compassion can’t be weaponized.  You can’t just throw out the statement that Bernie isn’t telling the truth without backing that up.

      I believe Bernie simply wants to see the people of Venezuela avoid starvation and war and supports ZERO US intervention in Venezuela.  From everything I have seen, his call for humanitarian aid was not specific to the US.

      formerly SandersDem @Squibbles on Twitter

    • #28952
      ZimInSeattle
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,597

      "Poverty is the parent of revolution and crime" - Aristotle "The more I see of the moneyed peoples, the more I understand the guillotine" - George Bernard Shaw "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, will make violent revolution inevitable" - JFK #SurviveAndRevolt

      • #28993
        incognito
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 3,696

        What a powerful and impressive team we have in Aaron Maté, Max Blumenthal, Ben Norton, Abby Martin and Mike Prysner! It just doesn’t get any better than that! Love them all and they are on the ground reporting what’s really going on in Venezuela.

        I hope they’re careful though.

        • #29030
          ZimInSeattle
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 1,597

          I follow all of them on twitter. Scary job they’re doing being in Venezuela. The opposition has already murdered some journalists I heard Abby saying in  the last couple weeks.

          "Poverty is the parent of revolution and crime" - Aristotle "The more I see of the moneyed peoples, the more I understand the guillotine" - George Bernard Shaw "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, will make violent revolution inevitable" - JFK #SurviveAndRevolt

    • #28955
      sadoldgirl
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 774

      This may be much simpler and may lead back to the

      lessons learned from 2016. He did not believe that

      the Greens could win (or any 3rd party). He realized then

      that one cannot win fighting the MIC or CIA. Thus he

      joined the Russia-gate crowd. Now he knows he has to waffle

      about VZ in order to soothe both sides. He is a politician

      after all and tries to run for the highest post in the country.

      There is no PEACE movement in the US, and both parties

      are warmongering. The time from his Portland statement:

      “No more war!” is over.

      • #28998
        Bernin4U
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 398

        Of course some amount of pragmatism is always needed. For one, I did not see his endorsing of Her in 2016 as sheepdogging – I saw it as keeping up his end of the deal.

        But that’s very different from him now trying to sell this Trojan horse. And what has he got to gain from it? The corpodems will always hate him anyway, no matter what. But on the left, if you follow the twitter thread, he’s losing progressives to Tulsi over this.

        And instead, he could be using it to his advantage. They tried to diminish him over everything else (M4A, livable wage, free college, etc), which he has since made mainstream simply because people simply were able to see the truth in it. He has the same opportunity here. The voters are already sick of wars for profit, so that’s an easy one (as he’s already doing). But what he’s failing to do is to argue that it’s Wall St, Big Oil, and the MIC that’s creating this situation in the first place. They’re the ones wreaking all this havoc.

        It won’t fit on a bumper sticker, but that’s where his argument should be. There’s nothing good to be gained by this enabling he’s doing.

        Sign the petition to draft Jesse #Ventura2020
        https://peopleforjesse.com/

        Write him in for the WA primary
        https://greenpartywashington.org/2020/05/29/gpwa-ballot-for-presidential-nominee-and-state-officers/

    • #29014
      jerry611
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 864

      I’m thinking a lot of this is because of Florida.

      There is a lot of exiles and immigrants from Venezuela and Cuba in Florida. These voters hate the leaders of the native countries. And they are highly suspect of Democrats to begin with due to past history.

      It’s significant because Florida is a swing state notorious for very close elections. So every vote counts there. 60% of Cuban-Americans voted for Trump largely because they don’t approve of the Democrat’s policy of going soft on Cuba. Obama wanted to re-open relations and ended “wet-foot, dry-foot.” The voters punished Hillary, even though she was careful with the topic.

      If Bernie were to come out even hinting favor of Maduro, it’s going to upset immigrants from Venezuela and Columbia. And he’ll scare the Cuban-Americans too. This alone could lose the state.

      • #29032
        Bernin4U
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 398

        Maybe so. It’s certainly why Marco Rubio is one of the chief coup engineers.

        But is it reasonable or effective? What chance does Bernie have already with these wannabe repubs?

        I don’t see trying to be everything to everyone as ever being a winning strategy. What wins is being honest and genuine and showing that you care about everyone and giving them hope and inspiration.

        Bernie has much more to gain by showing that anti-chavista may be the establishment side, but it is not the side that’s for the people.

        Sign the petition to draft Jesse #Ventura2020
        https://peopleforjesse.com/

        Write him in for the WA primary
        https://greenpartywashington.org/2020/05/29/gpwa-ballot-for-presidential-nominee-and-state-officers/

      • #29124
        doh1304
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,163

        Sorry jerry611, but I can’t help myself.

        So refugees are flooding from Venezuela to Florida so that they can vote Republican in 2020? Sounds like my Republican friend’s Mexican/Democrat conspiracy theory. (I know your point is better than I’m making it sound)

    • #29086
      Sanders Independent
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 58

      Nothing more for me to gain here. I stand with Bernie and believe his statement and heart is right where it should be, if folks can’t even understand true compassion we as a world are seriously fucked.

      formerly SandersDem @Squibbles on Twitter

    • #29127
      doh1304
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,163

      Since I sort of started this I’ll clarify myself.

      My disagreement with Bernie is in the optics. I have no doubt that he does not want to support or be misquoted to make it seem that he wants regime change in Venezuela, or that he actually believes that Russia stole the 2016 election in a conspiracy with Donald Trump, but his careful wording implies a lack  that is worrisome. As someone once criticized me, words matter, and soft wording in a critical situation especially matters. It demoralizes, it implies lack of courage and integrity.

      Edit: Since I posted this more has come out, link this is rather long, but the takeaway (for me) is that Bernie is trying to reinforce his statement without substantially clarifying it, and also it seems that his foreign policy advisor is from the Center For American Progress.

    • #29257
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,358

      Hmm.  I can grant that there are two sides to this argument – one is that, perhaps he is doing what is pragmatic/saying as little as possible to keep the media and dems from going at him… but aren’t they already going at him?  Haven’t they been doing so for a long time?  The other is that Sanders is going along with the PR, that he has either swallowed it, or decided to support it for points with the centrists/corporate dems.

      I do not think he will condone military intervention – and unlike a lot of the “democrats” I believe him when he says so.  I do think, however, that his focus in this case is misplaced.  Whatever Maduro is doing or not doing… we might, perhaps, consider who the guilty party is here.  Chavez led a popular revolutionary movement in his Country – one that had a massive impact on poverty (getting people OUT of it), one that led to a far more equitable land for Venezuelans, at least for time.  He even provided heating fuel for a lot of people in New England who couldn’t afford it.  Some of them might have died without it.  Our government?  Nope, wouldn’t do it.  But the so called evil dictator, madman, evil socialist, or whatever they preferred to call him?  Yep.  Huh.  Strange.  The so called good guys (the US) were going to let people freeze to death – but the so called bad guys helped?  Wait, what?

      Oh, it was likely spun as a PR event – but I believe Chavez was reaching out to the American people.  Trying to assert that, in spite of the lies of our media and politicians, Venezuela was a willing friend.  However… when you treat your friends like shit, sanctioning and doing everything you can to break their economy, pursuing all kinds of means of sabotage and economic destruction, assassination, coup attempts… well, your “friends” tend to start to look at you differently.  All of that has been going on for years.

      In light of the recent humanitarian crisis (maybe people are starving – maybe they aren’t, maybe someone who has been to Venezuela in person lately can enlighten us – if any such person is here), rather than immediately offering to lift our sanctions, granting food, medicine and so on… we levied further sanctions because, supposedly, Maduro is an evil dictator.  Wicked socialist, whatever – basically, the same shit they said about Chavez.

      Oh, but we DID indeed later help put together an “aid package”, the only problem was that the man in charge?  The so called special envoy?  A convicted war criminal… pardoned by the elder Bush – but fucking known for doing precisely the same kind of shit the last few administrations did – only worse.  So, Maduro should just open his borders right?  Like we do in the US, of course.  Oh wait.

      I am sorry – but the only conclusion to reach here with an awareness of all of this – is that the US has behaved in such a manner as to have no credibility – and no right to tell anyone what they “should” do.  Of all the things we might have done or could have done – at every turn, we chose very poor options.  Now the politicians and media march in lockstep with this “evil Maduro won’t let people have aid!” PR stunt… but that’s what it is – a fucking stunt.

      As the Nations of the world add their support to the US declaration of support for Guaido – I have to wonder… what the fucking fuck?  They must think we are very, very stupid.  Sadly, in a good number of cases they are right.  I tell you one thing though – the US public will not be supporting any kind of military action in Venezuela – and such a move will likely bring down this administration, if they make it.

      Like in Iraq, like in El Salvador, like in so many places, with so many peoples, there will be no apology, no effort to make amends.

      I am sorry, but Bernie is absolutely wrong – not in his precise words here – but in thinking that they were appropriate as opposed to the truth.  I have supported politicians before who “went along”, or were willing to lie/bend the truth for the sake of votes.  I do not intend to do so again.  At the moment, Bernie still has my vote – but this stings.  It makes me wonder if Gabbard is actually the better choice, after all.

    • #29259
      Cold Mountain Trail
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 8,440

      #28969

      You didn’t misremember.  Blumenthal did a piece in a VZ supermarket, which was indeed better stocked than some US supermarkets.  Just the prices (for some items e.g. pet food) were indeed very odd (& high)

    • #29264
      closeupready
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,261

      Jimmy Dore has been asking Bernie to appear for an interview segment on his show for years, without success.

      Now, I am a fan of both guys, but I have to be honest here – Jimmy is being a petulant child, not a thoughtful, critical thinker.  And no, I don’t think whining is an amusing schtick from anyone over the age of 5.

      Whatever.

      On edit, this is Jimmy from March of 2018:

       

      The opinions and personal views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and should never be taken seriously.

    • #29282
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,358

      @closeupready

      When Bernie says “allow humanitarian aid” he neglects to mention Elliot Abrams or the fact that that aid likely includes some really “special things” for Guaido supporters.  Now I don’t know about Jimmy, but to me, that is one hell of a truth to simply leave out.  Most likely in response to the (fake) outrage some dems have demonstrated, Bernie decided he had to make some kind of statement.  Maybe one of his campaign people was looking at various data and determined it was necessary.

      That’s not how he’s going to win.  It is when in spite of consequences someone tells the truth, that the people come to love them.  Sure, he’d catch holy hell from the media for pointing out the bull shit in Venezuela/regarding Maduro – but millions of Americans who have a clue would be sitting there nodding.

      I do not like this.  Maduro is not allowing aid from the US in – but he has good reasons for not doing so.  No one who was aware of the situation would seriously suggest that he should permit Elliot Abrams to send in whatever he likes.

      How many times is the US government going to try pulling off a coup in Venezuela?  What happens if/when we finally succeed?  The real intent here is to kill the effort at a form of democratic socialism – one that, under Chavez – actually worked.  It worked in the sense that it did something very few others have done – it dramatically reduced poverty.

      The US was not willing to allow that, not from a Nation that was not prepared to kiss some serious corporate ass.  Hell… if Chavez had been more successful, it could have inspired a movement here in the US – which seems to have appeared anyway.  Maybe they’re trying to set an example, but whatever the reason or cause – the economic suffering, the poverty and hunger in Venezuela – are directly related to US actions, particularly sanctions.

      So… telling Maduro what he should or must do is absolutely ridiculous.  Let in genuine aid?  Yes.  Put the needs of the people first?  You mean… like the US?  Oh, nevermind, forgot, capitalism.

      Blah blah democracy blah.  Burning light of freedom, shining beacon of bull shit.  Bernie needs to stick to the truth, it is his strongest weapon.  What he has said here is not lying – but it is leaving out a whole lot – including the insane levels of hypocrisy.

      Sorry, not pissed at you.  Pissed at the situation.  Pissed that Bernie felt it necessary to do this – but above all, pissed at the Vichy dems and the media – and the Trump administration…. and those who give the orders.  Not sure how much more of this I can take.  No point in satire anymore, the reality is extreme enough.

      • #29313
        closeupready
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,261

        No worries, we are all entitled to our opinions, amigo.

        Jimmy Dore has a show.  As he informs viewers in every other segment, he’s a nightclub comedian, not a foreign policy expert or think tank guy – entertainment is his area of expertise.  That’s fine.

        Bernie Sanders has been a progressive leader in the US Congress for almost 30 years.  He is a busy man.  He simply does not have time to accept every invitation extended to him for an interview.

        Jimmy Dore resents that, and thus, “Bernie is a loser,” “Bernie is a hawk,” “Bernie is CIA,” “Bernie sucks,” etc.  No, Jimmy – he doesn’t have time for you.  End of story.

        The opinions and personal views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and should never be taken seriously.

    • #29285
      JustSayin
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 535

      I hope not to see another White Obama in the white house

      Never expect different result by following the previous steps

    • #29332
      Bluesuedeshoes
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 552

      A lot of people understand what we are actually up to in Venezuela.

      <span style=”display: inline !important; float: none; background-color: #ffffff; color: #333333; cursor: text; font-family: Georgia,’Times New Roman’,’Bitstream Charter’,Times,serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;”>Sometimes Bernie would serve us better if he zipped it.</span>

      Greg Lapalina

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