Bitcoin Keeps Falling, but Everything Is Fine Among the Crypto True Believers

Homepage | Forums | Topics In Depth | Economics | Bitcoin Keeps Falling, but Everything Is Fine Among the Crypto True Believers

Viewing 5 reply threads
  • Author
    Posts
    • #424407
      eridani
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 9,009

      https://newrepublic.com/article/162448/bitcoin-price-drop-market-clubhouse

      For crypto believers, though, today was merely a “correction,” a market stress test. Some portfolios will survive, some won’t. Promoters of so-called altcoins or shitcoins (as most coins outside of the top few are called) may have little rhetorical ballast to support their positions—many traders would admit that they’re looking for quick gains, not investing for the long term, and that now they’re reaping the consequences of their decisions. But the same can’t be said of Bitcoin fanatics, who despite facing enormous losses over recent weeks, with volatility to match, have taken to expressing overwhelming confidence in their positions. “I’m not selling,” tweeted Michael Saylor, a tech executive who’s emerged as a top Bitcoin mandarin. He and others claim that they are HODLing: hoarding their Bitcoin for the long term. Anthony Pompliano, one of the most voluble Bitcoin influencers, complained that clogged exchanges made it difficult to buy more Bitcoin today. (Pompliano, who might politely be called the rise-and-grind hustle-king of Bitcoin, yesterday launched something called Bitcoin Pizza, a “Bitcoin-themed pizza service” that only accepts dollars.)

      The attendant decline in “shitcoins”—many of the top 100 cryptocurrencies were down 20 percent or more—was irrelevant. “Bitcoin is the only true cryptocurrency.” A confident male voice (they were almost all male) chimed in. Markets are dependent on two emotions, he said: “fear and greed.” Dispense with fear. Remember the feeling you had last month when Bitcoin was over $60k. Someone talked about being publicly rejected by a girl when he was in school; that was worse than any Bitcoin loss.

      It’s good to know all sides, another said. What is the biggest risk for Bitcoin? “Aliens or lizard people,” went the first answer.

      There was a revivalist sensibility in the virtual air. Someone called Bitcoin “inevitable,” something released from Pandora’s box. One could imagine this feverish dialogue in a men’s group, a circle of people bonding through emotional confessions. “I am so grateful for this price level this morning,” another man said. “I have more Bitcoin than I did yesterday. If you can survive this, you can survive anything. Welcome to Bitcoin.”

      Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

    • #424422
      NV Wino
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 7,459

      No idea how it works. My best guess is you shove in your dollars and they fall into a deep pit, never to be seen again.

      “As we act, let us not become the evil that we deplore.” Barbara Lee
      “Politicians and pro athletes: The only people who still get paid when they lose.” William Rivers Pitt

      • #424426
        Mr. Mickeys Mom
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 5,765

        Everything aside from actual Bitcoin is actually shit-coin, based on what I’ve been following over the last few years. I decided  to share it on JPR recently, because I noticed how complicated the subject is.

        Don’t waste your time or money on whatever machine goes Wrrrrrrrlllllll-bing!

        Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

    • #424427
      Mr. Mickeys Mom
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 5,765

      Any explanation that touts aliens or circus clowns surrounding what appears to be dissatisfaction with the petrol-dollar, is making its way to many a discussion board. The propaganda machine is quite interesting these days.

      Do your own homework. Don’t take my word for it. I didn’t take other people’s word for it. And, if you think this stuff is complicated, well, it is.

      The safest way to invest in cryptocurrency is to check out Swan Bitcoin. This will lead you to much of what has been happening, including that dope, Elon Musk, who has plenty of money in the attempts to dip this market. The wise investor who sees what is going on with the endless printing of our Fed should be more and more concerned with that. The ownership of Bitcoin completely eliminates the central bank, which is the whole idea. I rather like the idea that I can start putting away for long term investment, increments that cannot be CONTROLLED by a corrupt central bank who keeps printing us into either a hyper-inflation state, and ultimately the next depression. People are beginning to understand that moving money away from the Federal Reserve’s constant printing is the only way to remove that abuse of power.

      Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

      • #424666
        eridani
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 9,009

        Not by me.

        Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

        • #424782
          Mr. Mickeys Mom
          Moderator
          • Total Posts: 5,765

          … and the amount of energy consumed isn’t being ignored where BTC is being mined, which is why its mining is being transformed, starting with solar. This coin, which sold for a $dollar in 2011 has particularly soared during 2020, when Amazon and the bankers ended up making billions during the pandemic while the labor movement reversed from its already stagnant days of Ronnie firing the air traffic controllers.  Yet, this concern of how it is being mined is all we end up hearing on MSM. So, it’s easy to just exclaim how it’s boiling the oceans and not see how the central banks can control everything in your life.

          The easier thing to ignore is what is happening under the US monetary system of inflation at the same time. Bend over and take some more, if you prefer, but I prefer to put some of my savings into BTC, thank you very much. Meanwhile, you assume that it’s okay for this fossil fuel based economy to drive consumption, but point out BTC energy takes the energy of some nations. I think it’s time to stop blaming people who seek a non-fiat, oil based monetary system to get the attention of Wall Street that some how didn’t quit accomplish that message during OWS.

          The amount of energy used and abused by a never-ending fiat currency that is not backed up by gold and silver is based on endlessly sought out oil control in other countries, which is pretty much all the GDP we’ve financed all these wars with. The petrol dollar is going to be challenged and the control by the Central Bank is why we have to challenge it. Bitcoin removes the geopolitical element of how much, where the extractive industries conduct the bloody business of oil.

          According to the University of Michigan School for Environment and Sustainability…

          When spread over the population, annual costs of U.S. Energy was in 2019 $3,891 per person. Environmental impacts associated with the production and consumption of energy include global climate change, acid rain, hazardous air pollution, smog, radioactive waste, and habitat destruction. The nation’s heavy reliance on fossil fuels (primarily imported crude oil) poses major concerns for energy security.

          Each day, U.S. per capita energy consumption includes 2.6 gallons of oil, 9.7 pounds of coal, and 255 cubic feet of natural gas. Residential daily consumption of electricity is 11.8 kilowatt-hours (kWh) per person.

          Bitcoin as it has more stability than fiat currency and can compete with gold. Much of the oil manipulation and who pays for it rests on in the central banks. Examine other countries and look at who is re-patriating their gold. There are many more ounces of paper gold than real gold, and it’s difficult for countries to even find gold to back it up. Bitcoin is less volatile than many currencies and will achieve a market capitalization like gold.

          You want to stop funding the climate crisis and stop any investments of yours from taking haircut after haircut and totally own the asset? Take a position in Bitcoin, which is not synonymous with cryptocurrency, because there’s a lot of worthless computers within crypto. Bitcoin becomes yours and excludes central banks. Wall Street cannot control it.

          The economy is not driven by fundamentals. It is driven by this crazy monetary theory of printing. If you look at the amount of percentage of debt to GDP the US has, economists theorize that it will get to 93% of our GDP. Compare Japan with a debt to GDP % closer to 300%.  The US is trying to catch up to that and can print up $50 – 60 Trillion more and buy up $50-60 Trillion more in assets on the Central Bank balance sheet and could well go up to 200 to 300% of GDP. So, the Central Bank Balance Sheet has a balance sheet greater than the GDP of America. So, that balance sheet could go to 5 Trillion and that’s unsustainable. The fact is, it could go to 20-25 Trillion.

          As I said, do your own homework. I’ve been doing mine for about 5 good years. Before that, I would have agreed with you.

           

           

          Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

          • #424895
            eridani
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 9,009

            What does gold have to do with facilitating monetary exchange?  Nothing.

            “So, that balance sheet could go to 5 Trillion and that’s unsustainable.”  Federal balance sheets have nothing to do with sustainability.  The only thing that matters is whether people continue to use dollars for transactions.  Less than 3% of all US money is in bills or coins–the rest is dealt with by banks and credit cards.

            The only real backing for money is ongoing social trust.

            Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

            • #425000
              Mr. Mickeys Mom
              Moderator
              • Total Posts: 5,765

              It’s up to you to understand how goods and services of one country exchanges with the other. You can either educate yourself better on this, or not. It’s up to you. And, when the US dollar no longer remains the dominant currency, based on the nonsense on which it’s backed , you will see the folly of your statement when you said…

              The only thing that matters is whether people continue to use dollars for transactions

              A sustainable currency for transactions of goods and services IS the thing that matters. If you don’t recognize that, then go do some more reading on this subject.

              Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

              • #425052
                eridani
                Participant
                • Total Posts: 9,009

                Tell me how to change it into quarters to use at the laundromat, or how to shop for groceries with it.  As long as we can do those things, currency does not have to be backed by anything other than trusting that we can still use cash and charge cards.

                Actual cash is about 12% of the total money supply, most of which is bits stored on computers.
                https://www.quora.com/What-percent-of-the-US-dollar-is-physical-currency

                Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

      • #425219
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 20,670

        The article here is from the New Republic, a liberal establishment magazine. I haven’t done enough research to have a solid opinion of my own, though my stepson’s made over $900 off of crypto bets. I have done enough research to realize that all of the right people hate it enough to make me interested in it.

        The fact that the Federal Reserve recently announced it will be taking a “leading role” in cryptocurrency, establishing “safe” alternatives to it that have a more “stable” value, tells me that at least part of the financial oligarchy sees it as enough of a threat that they need to establish a cryptocurrency under their control.

        Hmm. Kinda like they use the Democratic Party to funnel in progressives in order to emasculate and control them, as a matter of fact.

        It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

        You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #424512
      Babel 17
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,932

      It won’t be popular there much longer. Maybe China will come up with their own, but people outside of China are unlikely be keen on that, other than speculating on the first coins going up in value.

      The Russian government might have a stockpile, they have had the hardware to produce their share, plus they can cut themself a good deal on electricity, but if they were holding coins, and now decide to dump them, they might decide that the party will be over for everyone.

      That would put the USA front and center, and there is now serious talk about how much electricity is being wasted on crypto. People are sensitive about their credibility regarding global warming, and if they put crypto in their cross hairs, oh my. And last I heard Europe takes being Green very seriously.

      People who buy video cards for gaming, and who don’t mine, have been seriously pissed at how miners buy up cards and now have created an insane shortage that has seen prices double and triple as scalpers have the only cards readily for sale. And now solid state, and hard, drives are getting gobbled up by a new class of miners, causing a spike in prices and fears of shortages.

      Crypto was used to pay the cyber criminals who caused the hack leading to the fuel shortage, and rise in gas prices.

      If we hear word that the United States government has “learned” that crypto was used to pay terrorists that killed our soldiers, and was used to pay those trafficking children to be sex workers, I’ll see that as indication that our government will interpret the laws to put crypto out of commission.

      As if cash was never used to pay for anything and everything, but still, I’d shed no tears.

      There’s a new crypto that’s reputed to use a lot less electricity, but imo it would require a massive amount of cooperation to see that become the thing to replace bitcoin.

    • #425065
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 20,670

      After all, one American aircraft power battle group is going to use up more energy and pump more greenhouse gases in the air than all of the electricity generated for cryptocurrency from the very beginning, I would think. Hell! Maybe just one F-35 flight does!

      We’re not supposed to worry about that, but we should stay away from crypto to show how environmentally conscious we are? That just strikes me as silly.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

      • #425076
        Mr. Mickeys Mom
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 5,765

        … but, you can’t look at that without looking at the Federal Reserve Board’s print orders. The issue is how fast the money printers go, “B-r-r-r-rlll”, while reading their updates –

        The FY 2021 print order of 7.6 to 9.6 billion notes is an increase of 1.7 to 3.8 billion notes, or 30.6 to 65.9 percent, from the final FY 2020 order.

        Currency in circulation, a direct measure of demand for Federal Reserve Notes (FRNs), increased by 5.1 billion notes or $226.3 billion dollars between June 2019 and June 2020. In contrast, during the same period the previous year, currency in circulation increased by 1.3 billion notes, or $75.8 billion dollars.

        This should tell you how less your dollar buys. IOW, if the Fed keeps printing notes that are gifting the central banks at ZERO percent interest, whether 12% of it is in paper, and most of it is electronic, then what backs US currency is less and less.  This has to be understood, just as what @ohiobarbarian says above must be understood in terms of how much energy we are wasting with these dollars.

        This endless printing is passed on to the “consumer”, or the 99% of us as a form of inflation, or in reality, a stealth way of taxes you can’t see on a tax statement every quarter of what you owe, but rather how much less your dollar will pay off what you owe.

        The real conversation we should have next is the pros and cons of what everyone keeps misunderstanding, and that is cryptocurrency, all forms, and that of Bitcoin. You and I can have that conversation. It’s up to you.

        Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

        • #425200
          eridani
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 9,009

          I use cash at my local laundromat and at my local pot shop, and for nothing else. As soon as pot shops can use regular banks and credit cards, I won’t need it for that.  25 cents at the laundromat gets 8 minutes of drying time–the same as it’s been

          The real question to ask about cryptocurrency is “What problem does it solve?”

          Paul Krugman–

          https://www.businessinsider.in/cryptocurrency/news/paul-krugman-throws-in-the-towel-on-calling-the-demise-of-bitcoin-think-of-it-as-a-cult-that-can-survive-indefinitely/articleshow/82784951.cms

          “BTC isn’t a new innovation; it’s been around since 2009, and in all that time nobody seems to have found any good legal use for it,” wrote Krugman in a string of comments he posted about bitcoin on Twitter on Wednesday.

          “It’s not a convenient medium of exchange; it’s not a stable store of value; it’s definitely not a unit of account,” he wrote. “Its value rests on the perception that it’s a technologically sophisticated way to protect yourself from the inevitable collapse of fiat money, which is coming one of these days, or maybe one of these centuries. Or, as I say, libertarian derp plus technobabble.”

          the last ten years.

          Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

          • #425218
            Mr. Mickeys Mom
            Moderator
            • Total Posts: 5,765
            • #425380
              eridani
              Participant
              • Total Posts: 9,009

              He continued: “But I’ve given up predicting imminent demise. There always seem to be a new crop of believers. Maybe just think of it as a cult that can survive indefinitely.”

              Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

              • #425422
                Mr. Mickeys Mom
                Moderator
                • Total Posts: 5,765

                and, based on the subjectivity of Krugman’s reporting, which took on a particular tone of being controlled by TPTB during Bush/Cheney’s war and why Wall Street needed a bailout rather than the American taxpayer, you’ll see a great deal of subjectivity, and less factually based “opinions”. He’s been that way for quite a while, and that’s troubling for someone who should factually base his economic theories and predictions. If he gives up, it’s because what he has written about doesn’t hold a lot of water.

                Now, you surely must be interested in the pro’s and con’s of BTC from subsequent cryptocurrency, right?

                Read, evaluate, form your own opinion. Should I really have to recommend that you do this? No… I should not.

                Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

                • #425608
                  eridani
                  Participant
                  • Total Posts: 9,009

                  What problem does it solve?  If it did solve any problems of concern to the average person, they would all be using it.

                  Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

                  • #425632
                    Mr. Mickeys Mom
                    Moderator
                    • Total Posts: 5,765

                    I’ve invited discussion about the issue. I’ve encouraged a conversation about the pros and cons of cryptocurrency vs BTC. Krugman, unless you’ve been absent from the news cycle, has never been right about the state of economics outside what the MSM requires him to say.

                    Discussion pro and con crypto? No? Diversion and poor homework skills instead on the subject?

                    Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

                    • #426011
                      eridani
                      Participant
                      • Total Posts: 9,009

                      “What actual uses have been found for cryptocurrency?”  Do you have an answer?

                      Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

                      • #426287
                        Mr. Mickeys Mom
                        Moderator
                        • Total Posts: 5,765

                        It appears that, “What actual uses have been found for cryptocurrency?”  is now your question. The answer is the same as it would be for the question, “Why would I want to open a savings account, a money market account, an IRA or any other way that an individual would invest.

                        The decision for anyone wish financial security without loosing the principle they invest has to consider whether that person’s investment went south (example, 2008 economic crash, which you can follow though this timeline) resulting in traditional investments getting a “haircut” when all those mortgage backed securities and markets “lost”.

                        If putting your money into cryptocurrency is so that you can take it out with the ebs and tides of how cryptocurrency performs against the US dollar, then you can see how those markets can take a dive when major investors try to manipulate them (e.g. Elon Musk, whose net worth went from $28 Billion to $70 Billion in 6 months last year).

                        Or, if you are like most of the younger generation (especially in countries who have been devastated by their country’s indebtedness to the World Bank), you look to investment outside that corrupt system. If you don’t understand how the World Bank has been devastating those countries, you have a lot of catching up to do.

                        I can only tell you that I am doing is quite the same with what many others are doing when we look to remove our comparatively meager savings into something long term. More and more persons who can put some of their portfolio into Bitcoin are. Some (like Musk, who doesn’t understand the difference between Dogecoin and Bitcoin, has another strategy). He has plenty of money to try and manipulate how well his coin will perform. So, if you want a lesson, continue to see what will happen long term.

                        Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

                      • #426430
                        eridani
                        Participant
                        • Total Posts: 9,009

                        If that’s the only thing it’s good for, what are the rest of us poor slobs to do who only want a medium of exchange?

                        Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

      • #425078
        Mr. Mickeys Mom
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 5,765

        You got that point. And, from the massive amounts of effort to link Bitcoin to the draw of energy that currently is used to produce it, no one else in MSM really engages in further analysis as how much energy is wasted on the US’s primary source of this budget. Why this doesn’t get the economic discussion/synthesis/analysis is just stunning.

        Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

    • #425311
      Babel 17
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,932

      https://www.investopedia.com/tech/whats-environmental-impact-cryptocurrency/

      What often gets overlooked is that a lot of mining is in China, and a lot of their cheapest power comes from coal powered plants. So big mining farms gravitate to them.

      65% of bitcoin miners are located in China, a country that generates most of its energy from coal.

      Honestly, I didn’t know the percentage was that high. A crackdown by China would be a big deal.

      https://cbeci.org/mining_map

      • #425426
        Mr. Mickeys Mom
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 5,765

        While you probe into how this draw of energy is allocated after reading that, do not forget to see how US dollars are used. If I’m shorter with this post here, it’s because I want you to look at the system that fiat currency is based on. You will then see much of it as the petrol dollar it is, and the need to take it out of the hands (central banks) in order to stop that behavior.

        Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

Viewing 5 reply threads
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.