Buying the Lesser Evil Argument

Homepage | Forums | Main Forums | General Discussion | Buying the Lesser Evil Argument

  • Author
    Posts
  • #68071

    David the Gnome
    Member
    • Total Posts: 1,137
    @davidthegnome

    Yes, believe it or not, I DO understand how bad Trump is and how much many people want him gone.  This does not mean that removing him could not pave the way for someone even worse.  For instance – if he dies today, Mike fucking Pence becomes President.  Not my main point – but worth considering.  Mike Pence becomes President, a “Handmaid’s tale” becomes our fucking reality.  It’s already on it’s way there with the orange POS.  Environmental policies, diplomacy, economic policies, foreign policy, everything looks to be going all the way to fucking “OH SHIT!”  No joke.  Consider EPA and it’s recent directors, or the CIA – I’d add the FBI, but lying about Iraq having WMDs doesn’t seem to have damaged Mueller’s credibility for some reason.

    Currently, our troops are engaged in Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq and Yemen – and quite possibly other Countries I know nothing about.  When I say “engaged”, I mean, a great many of them are in areas where violent death is a constant threat.  Iraq will shortly vote to tell our troops to go home – the US government will not permit that.  People will die.  People are dying in Syria, still.  People are dying in Yemen – and our tax dollars support it.  People are STILL dying in Afghanistan, even our own people – and the Taliban maintains a great deal of influence and power after almost 20 years of war.

    Our ecosystem is dying, as supported by any number of articles regarding insect, plant or animal life, any number of articles that speak of permafrost, the danger of the melting of the artic and so on and so forth.  Our rights as citizens, what few we may still have, are also dying a slow death via the assault on women’s rights.  Via the assault on the safety net, on the poor, the hungry and the sick.  Via the god damned squeezing of what remains of the middle class – they have to make up for the tax breaks for the wealthy somehow.

    Shit, Trump really IS fucking scary.  Yep, he absolutely needs to go.  However, should we permit someone like Biden to replace him?  What will happen then?  Biden voted in favor of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars.  Biden is very much in favor of interfering in Venezuela to overthrow Maduro.  Biden was Vice President under the ill advised Presidency of Barack Obama.  We can add in his many corporate ties, we could speak of his… disturbing personal habits of being very, uh, touchy.  We might also, at least consider, just how poorly his last attempt at running for President went.

    A key point here – the Republican party is largely united.  No, not in it’s entirety, but enough to make the dems look like bickering teenagers.  Generally speaking, the crazed variety that has taken over their party is against very nearly everything the left stands for.  They will deliberately end social security, Medicaid and even medicare – if given the chance.  They will deliberately shut down our borders, invade Countries we should be negotiating with, give more tax cuts to the wealthy.  Shit, they might even decide to throw a nuke or three at Iran.

    The democrats, on the other hand… oh, they are so very clever with their lies and their evasions.  “I support medicare for all, BUT”…. “We can’t get rid of the insurance companies!”… “I did not have sexual…”  err, sorry, I digress.  Biden, Harris, Buttigieg, Gillibrand, Booker – shit, we’ve got over a dozen corporate candidates who are eager for some corporate ass kissing.  They will maintain the status quo.  They aren’t QUITE as insane as the republicans, but they also aren’t going to do a damn thing about climate change, or economic inequality.  They will (as Obama did) promise the moon and deliver only ashes.

    Most of the ACA is dead.  The Paris agreement is in tatters, the Iran nuclear agreement is dead.  Nearly everything worthy of note that the Obama administration accomplished has turned to nothing.  Change?  Hope?  Where?

    Absolutely NOT within the corporate democrat, within their thousand dollar suits, their fancy dinners (funded, of course, by the tax payer), their many, many benefits for supposedly being “public servants” when all they ever seem to do is lie and betray us.  I am sorry – but I’m going to say it – the real USEFUL IDIOTS are those who are going to vote blue no matter who.  How many times must they prove they are not your friend or supporter?  How many times must they demonstrate their utter lack of concern for the needs and/or wants of the American people?  How many times must they fail to prosecute crimes – even war crimes?  How much insider trading in congress is too much?

    We do not have the luxury of time to debate this for very long.  We do not have the luxury of time, at all.  It is running out.  Climate change, nuclear war and the nuclear winter that follows – take your pick.  A corporate dem or republican will bring those nightmares to full realization.  We are on the brink.  On the brink of the destruction, perhaps, of our entire fucking planet and all the life on it.  At the very least, humanity will sent into another dark age.  It is time to stop the wars, to stop nuclear proliferation, to stop climate change, to stop the war machine.

    The usual suspects will not do this.  They DO NOT CARE.  They do not have a moral compass.  They are driven by polls, by media machinations, by avarice, by greed, by the desire for power itself.  You will do as you will – your right to vote, IMO, is sacred and without exception.  Vote for who you believe is the best candidate to be President.  Vote for your heart.  For your mind, for your soul.  I would beseech everyone though – do not vote for another tool of the oligarchy.  Do not buy the argument of the lesser evil.  Even in the case where it is lesser, it only means slower destruction, not repair, not healing.

    We must finally engage and challenge the oligarchy, we must face off against those who would destroy the world for their own profit.  We must bring an end to political bribery, to insider trading, to war and destruction – driven by lies for the sake of greed.

    Stand with Bernie Sanders.  Stand with Tulsi Gabbard.  Stand with someone who “well, it seems most likely that they won’t win” – but stand with someone you believe in.  If that someone, for you, is Joe Biden, fine.  But do not cringe away from supporting the candidate you really believe in.  Do not surrender an inch of ground on your values, on your principles, on your faith.  In unity, we must tell the global oligarchy to fuck off.  In unity, we must deny it political influence.  In unity, we must stand against the darkness and provide light.

    Cliché, perhaps, but… united we fucking stand.  Divided we fucking fall.  I’m not ready to give up on the American experiment.  I’m not ready to lie down for some asshole who thinks his wealth and power is more important than the lives of the billions of people on this planet.  Are you?  Who can we trust to challenge the corporations – which is what will be necessary to challenge climate change?

    Follow your heart and soul – but don’t try to tell me that the “lesser evil” is a pragmatic choice.  Fuck that.  That was for 2016, that was for Hillary Clinton, the war mongering sociopath who plenty of people voted for out of fear of Trump.  We gave her the popular vote – and she lost anyway.  You know what’s pragmatic at this point?  Standing up on rooftops to shout the truth.  Joining in any protest, civil disobedience or strike we can find.  Using our votes to support only those who support us.  What’s pragmatic at this point is what seems to some to be political suicide.  It is to get loud, to get angry, to shout and stomp and charge the fucking breach.

    I am prepared to die for what I believe in.  I am prepared to sacrifice whatever I have.  It is yours as much as mine.  Somehow, we must reach a place and time in which humanity understands that we are all brothers and sisters, that our destiny is much greater than our reality.  Seize your courage, stiffen your spine – and vote for principle and conscience.  Vote for compassion.  Vote for your heart and soul – but do not make the mistake of thinking a “pragmatic choice” is going to serve you.

    What the hell are we fighting for, if not a better future for us all?

  • #68078

    Hobbit709
    Donor
    • Total Posts: 803
    @hobbit709

    Evil is evil. The degree of evil is immaterial to that fact.

    I don't waste my time teaching pigs to sing.

  • #68081

    bazukhov
    Member
    • Total Posts: 1,189
    @bazukhov

    Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost. John Quincy Adams

    Of course, if you only vote for principle and don’t win, nothing changes and your vote is reduced to mere posturing and empty gestures.

    When it comes to politics, it’s always  about voting for the lesser of two evils.   Which is entirely subjective and relative.   Being the “lesser evil” is obvious against Trump.  The hard part for most of the wannabes is to convince the voters that they really are the “lesser evil” that they should hold their noses if necessary to rid us of the “greater evil”.

    It’s politics.  Not ideology.

    Tell me, great captain, how do the angels sleep when the devil leaves his porch light on? Tom Waites

    • #68091

      David the Gnome
      Member
      • Total Posts: 1,137
      @davidthegnome

      @bazukhov

      When it comes to politics, it’s always  about voting for the lesser of two evils.   Which is entirely subjective and relative.   Being the “lesser evil” is obvious against Trump.  The hard part for most of the wannabes is to convince the voters that they really are the “lesser evil” that they should hold their noses if necessary to rid us of the “greater evil”.

      It’s politics.  Not ideology.”

      Someone told me a story, not long ago, about a situation that occurred in the old Soviet Union (during the cold war).  Apparently, their “nuclear attack” alarm had malfunctioned, but basically it was telling them that the US had launched a nuclear attack.  One man…. one individual, stood between “fire back”, or “let’s verify this shit first”.  Some times, all it takes is one.

      So when we discuss politics and/or ideology, I think it is worth recalling that ideology can make the difference between nuclear Armageddon and peace.  Politics, on the other hand… depends on polling, on a sharp haircut, a white smile, convincing lies – and if all else fails, making the other guy look like a bigger asshole.  My own enmity towards corporate dems aside – it can’t be about politics anymore, not for any of us.  Somehow, it has to shift to ideology.  An ideology that demands that we act to save our race.  It’s that or it’s dystopia.  I wish it had not come so far, that it had not come to this.  Perhaps, if I had not read so many articles about what we are facing, perhaps I could agree with you about politics.

      Frankly, it is time to abandon politics.  We are human beings because of our emotions, our empathy, our passion… as much as anything else.  Politics can do nothing more for us.  Ideology is what it comes down to.  In a word: compassion.  Politics makes no place for compassion.

    • #68303

      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 6,330
      @ohiobarbarian

      Ain’t nobody got time for that! With climate change here, large and in charge, we need some real change ASAP. If the Democrats nominate some corporate piece of weaselshit who is not going to do anything substantial about that, then this country will burn and flood, literally, no matter who moves into the White House.

      And I will let it. For there will be nothing much I can do about it, except to be grateful I’m in the best place in the country for my family to survive the coming collapse.

      We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

      With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

      • #68367

        bazukhov
        Member
        • Total Posts: 1,189
        @bazukhov

        How do you intend to bring that “real change” ASAP about?

        Like it or not, we have a two party system here.  And, IMO, we don’t have time to wait for that to change.

        As far as I’m concerned The Issue is Trump and his nationalist/fascist/sociopathic supporters.   Are the Democratic candidates any better than him?  Yes.  All of them.   Are they “not as bad”?   Obviously.

        “Nach Hitler uns” didn’t work out very well for SDP and KPD in the 30s when the chose to ignore the obvious threat and pout rather than hold their noses.

         

         

        Tell me, great captain, how do the angels sleep when the devil leaves his porch light on? Tom Waites

        • #68633

          David the Gnome
          Member
          • Total Posts: 1,137
          @davidthegnome

          @bazukhov

          To be entirely honest – I don’t.  Certainly not by myself – and probably not soon enough to matter.  My primary hope is that there will be a popular civilian movement that will force the government to make some considerable changes.  Or that at least will convince congress and the Senate to start actually getting shit done.

          I think we’d have a better chance with a President who believes more as we do.  As for the “we” I refer to here, I mean all of us who have valid concerns about the disaster of climate change, about nuclear proliferation and the growing likelihood of greater global conflict.  In addition to that – some method of resource distribution is going to be necessary… and shit, if we don’t pay off our debt somehow, that could inspire a very different, but potentially just as ugly collapse.  Not going to happen overnight, that’s for sure.

          I think what we’d get with another corporate President – or a more “centrist democrat” would be more of the same bull shit.  You know, trade deals, military adventures, expansion, continued and perhaps even growing subsidies for corporations.  Business as usual can’t continue, not if we want to keep this Country or our civilization intact.  If I didn’t read the headlines and numerous articles almost every day, maybe I’d agree with you, but I really do think the shit is slowly hitting the fan.

          That means it’s either bugout, or fight back.  I don’t think we can effectively fight back with a weak President.  We certainly can’t do it with one who is owned by the oligarchy/corporations.

          Yeah, it’s a two party system – but I respectfully disagree regarding the democrat candidates.  Some would be better than Trump – others could very well be worse.  So far, we’ve avoided a war with Russia, in spite of decades of pissing contests, threats, propaganda and so on… but that could easily change.  You’ve seen the paranoia in the media, we’ve all heard our politicians rant about it.  I trust Bernie to put diplomacy first.  Honestly, I think our foreign policy has destroyed too many bridges – and I believe he will build more, while the others, for the most part, would just kick the can further down the road.

          Could be our best bet is a new party.  Not sure.  I’ll go with the best chance I think we’ve got though, at making the changes we need.  I realize that you are most likely doing what you think is the same thing – and maybe you’re right.  Maybe you’re not.  Maybe we’re both wrong, or both right, to an extent.  Doesn’t really matter.  Shit has to change, I don’t think anyone denies that.  I don’t think we have many candidates who are prepared to make the changes we need – or to even attempt to.  For the most part, I think they’re cowards who have sold their souls to the oligarchs.  A few exceptions, but out of the whole lot of them… not many.

        • #68915

          glinda
          Donor
          • Total Posts: 595
          @glinda

          I have one word “Australia”.

          I choose to fight for Bernie and if not him then fight for a total control of House, Senate and Presidency. Even if some are Corporate hacks. Then kick their sorry asses out.

          Animals know more than we do.

    • #68373

      A Simple Game
      Member
      • Total Posts: 377
      @asimplegame

      No, no, no!  Never go into the polling place to vote AGAINST someone, always go in to vote FOR someone.  Voting for the lesser of two evils usually doesn’t get you the best candidate but does perpetuate the two party system.

      It’s simple, no ideology, politics, or whatever, the only way the best candidate wins is if you vote for them.

  • #68084

    David the Gnome
    Member
    • Total Posts: 1,137
    @davidthegnome

    I would like to add – because I’m in a funny mood today – and prepared to be more honest and, uh, “emotional” than usual.

    No one here is my enemy.  I do not care what your party is, what brand of politics you may follow.  I do not care if you think I’m a flaming liberal asshole or a hippy idiot.  I’m in this for you as much as for me.  So that our children, grandchildren – and many generations to come, will have a better world to live in.  So that compassion, empathy – and ultimately all of the nobler things about humanity will come to the front in our time.  My friends, my brothers and sisters – we must act.  “And all of this shall come to pass, because good PEOPLE did nothing”.  Call me paranoid – but the science supports my assertions.  We are on a one-way ticket to oblivion.  Unless we act, we are damned.

    As for me… I’m ready to join the extinction rebellion.  No hate is within me, frankly, I cannot abide it anymore.  My love for – and faith in humanity is what drives me forward.  We CAN heal the world, we CAN resolve the greatest issues of our time.  We need to come together, in unity and faith, for the sake of our very lives, for the sake of humanity itself.  Should we permit our petty differences to continue to divide us… that will be a great shame – and the straw that breaks the camel’s back.  Frankly, the world and humanity needs YOU.  It needs each of us to act to save it.

    So, in all humility, I would beseech everyone… let’s get together and end this shit.  Let’s march, protest, boycott, camp out in Washington DC, let’s do whatever it takes.  For if good people do something, we might just save the world.

    That’s all I have to say, I guess.  Love to you all, whatever your path, I do not begrudge you your beliefs, your aspirations, your principles.  I only ask that you follow them.

    • #68102

      Charles
      Donor
      • Total Posts: 1,070
      @charles

      @davidthegnome

      Everyone has their own opinions and sometimes there are no truly right answers. What works for one does not always work for someone else and no solution will work. That’s just life.

      I’ve always appreciated our discussions even when we disagree on some things.

      Peace always :)

      Bernie: "Not Me. Us"

  • #68131

    HassleCat
    Member
    • Total Posts: 1,184
    @hasslecat

    I voted lesser of two evils last time and might do so again. It depends on what kind of shenanigans they use to rig the primaries. I might be influenced by choice of running mate, deviousness of double talk, hypocritical excuses, vitriolic attacks on progressives, lots of things. I am getting more and more tired of being taken for granted and being marginalized.

    • #68309

      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 6,330
      @ohiobarbarian

      You’re just a tool as far as the corporate Democrats are concerned. They despise people like you and me both. We’re just suckers for their fleecing. Then, when we object, we’re degraded as dreamers, purists, idiots, and when all else fails, enemies.

      The Democratic Party left me in 1992, although it took a couple of years before I realized it, and voted for Ralph Nader in 1996 and again in 2000.

      I am proud to be a hated enemy of the Vichy Democrats. Like one of my Democratic Party heroes, I welcome their hatred. I know that I hit them, and it hurt enough to make them cry. They’re still crying over it in poutrage. If they truly hate me for helping real progressives wrest control of the Democratic Party away from them next year, that would be even more welcome to me than their hating me for voting Green or Socialist in the past, or again in 2020.

      Hopefully we can be hated by them together next summer. Then the Republicans have to face us, and their over-the-top panic will be a sight to behold as we take our government back from them.

      That’s my dream. That’s why they hate me, and it feels good! And my gods like that, so I don’t even have any moral conflicts.

      We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

      With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

  • #68155

    mmonk
    Member
    • Total Posts: 470
    @mmonk

    You can’t get to where you want by taking detours such as voting between two people you don’t want to hold power. You’ll never arrive.

    Fear not the path of Truth for the lack of People walking on it. - RFK

  • #68188

    djean111
    Member
    • Total Posts: 2,039
    @djean111

    I have noticed that the “lesser evil” pushers, er, advocates, have usually and helpfully picked out which candidate is the “lesser evil”, for you.  So you don’t have to worry your progressive little head about issues and such.

    I will not vote for a Vichy Dem. Period. As always, I decide who is a Vichy Dem.

    Bernie's ISSUES or Bust!

    • #68356

      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 6,330
      @ohiobarbarian

      A powerful thing conditioning is.

      We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

      With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

  • #68264

    jbnw
    Donor
    • Total Posts: 501
    @jbnw

    We had 8 years with a Democratic President who was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize with two of those years with both houses of Congress under Democratic control.  We did not end our overseas wars – in fact, assassination by drone was a hallmark – and we still had an obscene military budget.  I will never vote for the lesser of two evils.

    • #68359

      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 6,330
      @ohiobarbarian

      If stopping wars for the profit of a few isn’t a deciding factor when it comes down to casting one’s vote, then one cannot tell others what is the right thing to do and be believed.

      I’m a veteran. I know how Tulsi Gabbard feels about this, because I feel the same thing.

      We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

      With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

  • #68268

    PolecatHollerer
    Member
    • Total Posts: 599
    @polecathollerer

    Awesomeness.

    If you give a man enough rope, it will be six inches too short. This is not the nature of rope- it is the nature of man.

  • #68305

    Ohio Barbarian
    Moderator
    • Total Posts: 6,330
    @ohiobarbarian

    Och! Now that’s a great rant, laddie. Recommended for the Daily Radical. @deadpool

    We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

    With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

  • #68532

    peacecorps
    Member
    • Total Posts: 1,467
    @peacecorps

    Hillary is bad but ‘the lesser of 2 evils’. Assad is bad but ‘the lesser of 2 evils’. The list is long throughout history.

    National problems (slavery/racism, income inequality, pathetic health care, weak unions) are not solved with more states' rights. Global problems (climate change, migration, trade, war) are not solved with more national sovereignty.

    A CEO, an American worker and an immigrant sit at a table with a dozen cookies in front of them. The CEO grabs 11 of them, then leans over and warns the worker, "Watch out for the immigrant. He is trying to get your cookie."

  • #68537

    Betty Karlson
    Member
    • Total Posts: 121
    @bettykarlson

    The lesser evil is still evil.

     

    We don’t ask for someone perfect.

    We ask for someone decent.

  • #68819

    ColorsoftheRainbow
    Member
    • Total Posts: 334
    @colorsoftherainbow

    “The Lesser Evil Argument” is a con job which comes from not just a political party, not just a political party and its political establishment, but from all participants who continue to prop it up which very much includes people who self-identify with that political party.

    They are in on the con.

    This was exposed on the Democratic side in 2016.

    That other site, mentioned here so often as “SV,” is a part of the con. People who were there and are now here…well, all you applicable forum members recognize this.

    I have this position: If the 2020 Democrats nominate yet another corporatist for president of the United States…I will deny that political party my general-election votes in all races it has a nominee (or incumbent). I did this in 2016. I did this again in 2018. I am prepared to do it again in 2020.

    This has me wondering, “How many consecutive election cycles does it take before one’s change in voting sticks?”

  • #68826

    xyzse
    Member
    • Total Posts: 781
    @xyzse

    It is not as if I am looking for someone who is perfect.  If there is any one in the current crop, I think the closest to where I stand at the moment is Tulsi.  Be that as it may, I know her chances are slim to none, but such is life.

    Any how, I do understand shades of gray, and looking for what would cause the least damage, and what would be the best outcome going forward.

    Problem is, VDs have not convinced me that they are better.  I need convincing before I would vote for one again.  I don’t see them as better, just a stop-gap to basically say “ooh, look a bandaid while you bleed to death”.  Voting for one of those diseases means complacency, and thinking that since they were voted in, everything is now ok, trust them to do good things.  Not going to happen.

    Well here’s my thing.  I don’t mind conversing with those who are willing to be civil while having a different point of view.  However, the idea that a vote for someone other than a Democrat = an inadvertent Trump vote just does not compute.

    The fact that VDs are so Hawkish nowadays just goes to show that they don’t mean anything else they are saying they espouse.  If they actually mean what they say, first thing to cut is Defense Spending, or if not cutting that, consider that Infrastructure and Educating the populace is part of Defending the nation.

  • #68830

    Deadpool
    Administrator
    • Total Posts: 2,145
    @deadpool

  • #68883

    Enthusiast
    Donor
    • Total Posts: 2,597
    @enthusiast

    Not gonna do it. Bernie or bust.

    I would like to remind you that U.S. health insurance companies do not contribute anything to health care. They are only a PARASITIC middle man receiving an undeserved cut of "FREE MONEY".

    Me

  • #68985

    algernon
    Member
    • Total Posts: 343
    @algernon

    This is JPR dogma.  Go against it and you belong at SV.

    It isn’t a positive argument.  It’s 100% negative, against Dems.

    Tell me, what Dem is a White Nationalist neo-nazi like Trump?  Tell me, how can a person abstract from that layer, and focus only on economics?  Tell me, do you really think the world can withstand 8 full years of Trump, followed by whatever post-apocalyptic horror a person can imagine?

    Tell me, what Dem has such a contemptuous disregard for the environment as Trump?  Don’t give me shit about how in the past people were fuckheads, tell me up front, right now, what Dem in the running has such contemptuous disregard.

    Tell me, what Dem has such a contemptuous disregard for the public school system, health system, every social system that exists, as Trump.

    Then tell me about how you’d abide the re-election of Donald Trump, out of spite or whatever.  Tell me.

    • #69338

      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 6,330
      @ohiobarbarian

      Tell me, when Phoenix and Las Vegas become uninhabitable in as little as 10 to 20 years what comfort that would be to have avoided re-electing a white nationalist? Not being a neo-Nazi IS NOT ENOUGH! If Trump gets a second term or some idiot like Biden gets in there we might be doomed anyway, which makes your lecture a moot point.

      I’ll answer two of your questions:

      Tell me, what Dem has such a contemptuous disregard for the environment as Trump?  Don’t give me shit about how in the past people were fuckheads, tell me up front, right now, what Dem in the running has such contemptuous disregard.

      Tell me, what Dem has such a contemptuous disregard for the public school system, health system, every social system that exists, as Trump.

      Answer: Joe Biden, and most of the other Democrats running for the nomination as well.  Not all–Sanders, Gabbard, Warren, Inslee, Yang–and a few others address one of those points. Only a couple have an answer or policy for all of them. So why not support them in the primary and hopefully avoid making that choice to vote for the LOTE or not in November?

      That said, if the Vichy Dems steal the nomination again, and then people like you refuse to vote third party and insult those of us who don’t–I can see it now, “A vote for the Green is a vote to ban abortion”–as far as I am concerned it’s on your head and the heads of tens of millions of others like you. Not that that does my family any good as the climate spirals out of control and billions start to die.

      Anyone who doesn’t consider climate change an essential issue is a damned fool, in my ever so humble opinion.

      We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

      With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

      • #71493

        algernon
        Member
        • Total Posts: 343
        @algernon

        @ohiobarbarian – you say

        “Tell me, when Phoenix and Las Vegas become uninhabitable in as little as 10 to 20 years what comfort that would be to have avoided re-electing a white nationalist? Not being a neo-Nazi IS NOT ENOUGH! If Trump gets a second term or some idiot like Biden gets in there we might be doomed anyway, which makes your lecture a moot point.”

        Altho’ I agree that avoiding re-electing a white nationalist neo-nazi isn’t “enough”, I’d say it’s a damn good start.

        I don’t need white nationalism to feel good about myself.  I don’t need the oppression of other than “white” people to fulfill my destiny.  There’s no benefit to me in ignoring or understating the importance of Trump’s racism, even tho’ it doesn’t directly target me.  I think institutional racism is a primary or first tier crime contradicting every notion of social justice.  Trump is proving that correct.  When the President of the USA is known, across the world and with certainty, to be a racist promoting and institutionalizing racist programs and racist ideals, I can’t dismiss that fact.  No argument can make that fact go away.

        You say:

        ” if the Vichy Dems steal the nomination again, and then people like you refuse to vote third party and insult those of us who don’t–I can see it now, “A vote for the Green is a vote to ban abortion”–as far as I am concerned it’s on your head and the heads of tens of millions of others like you. Not that that does my family any good as the climate spirals out of control and billions start to die.”

        Thanks for pinning global warming on me, personally – and absolving yourself of responsibility.  Easy, isn’t it?

        Your argument is underpinned by a dogmatic victim card: “if my candidate B wins then all is fine with the electoral process, but if B loses then B was cheated by dirty politics.”  Reinventing the 2016 Dem primary in a forever loop, a self-justifying groundhog day.

        To be sure those in power in any political party will do everything in their power to keep and advance the cause of that power. That’s what political power is about.  It’s addictive.
        But if any candidate were to run in a primary to represent a political party in some way, and were to run on the slogan that “if I win then all is fine but if I lose I’ve been cheated”, that candidate would be laughed off the stage.
        Bernie Sanders is not making that argument.
        That argument comes from some people calling themselves Sanders supporters on forums, self-published youtube opinion shows, blogs, etc. Self-styled demexiters who choose to play at being Dems during a Dem primary so they can focus on denigrating and befouling the entire Dem party “establishment” as being the same as the most evil venomous toad who ever disgraced the US flag. Right up to the point where that evil venomous toad’s overtly political racism can be blithely swept away as not being enough to be considered a significant difference.

        Rather than actually campaign for a progressive candidate, those promoting this argument are content to promote excuses for losing and to encourage people to throw away their vote on a “third party” that they, personally, have done nothing to build. And this is at the start of the primary campaign.

        AOC isn’t a “demexiter”, she’s never called Bernie Sanders a “sheepdog”, she’s never called Warren a “republican” even though Warren doesn’t identify as a democratic socialist. She didn’t get the voice that she’s won by whining. Every day she has to deal with the likes of Pelosi and Trump, and party machinery lubed by money. I can’t imagine AOC, or Bernie Sanders, advising people to throw away their GE vote on some “third party” that has no base, just because her preferred candidate lost the Dem primary and because some very dubious Dem candidate, one that she publicly disagrees with, won. I believe she’d rather run the risk of being pilloried as some kind of “sheepdog”, personally responsible for global warming, etc.,
        rather than do something so stupid.  Or to use your words, so damned foolish.

         

         

        • #71557

          Ohio Barbarian
          Moderator
          • Total Posts: 6,330
          @ohiobarbarian

          Typical VD/SV – style horseshit. Twist another poster’s words, then set up a straw man argument. I do not blame you personally for global warming or anything else, you left out the “tens of millions of others like you.” Where I come from, tens of millions is a significant figure, but it didn’t fit with your argument, so you disregarded it. For the record, I am just as responsible for human-caused climate change as most other Americans, which is a smidgeon compared to, say, Air Force jets and private Lear jets.

          I said the Vichy Dems stole the 2016 nomination from Sanders. I was talking about one election and one election only, yet you then accuse me of doing that in every election where my choice lost and then encouraging others to “throw away their votes.” In the first part you are deliberately overgeneralizing to make an implied attack on me that I am some kind of whiner or sore loser or something, and in the second part you say that voting third party is throwing away one’s vote.

          I disagree with that. What I really mean there is that a third party has no chance so long as tens of millions of people like you refuse to vote for it because you have been conditioned into believing that is somehow throwing away your vote. It also implies that somehow the Democratic Party owns my vote because I am a progressive and would never vote for a present-day Republican, when my vote belongs to myself, alone, not the Democrats, and not you.

          In fact, my vote for Jill Stein in Ohio counted every bit as much in the only election that mattered, in the Electoral College, as everyone in the state who voted for Hillary. None of our votes counted in the final analysis, yet you say I threw away my vote and those who voted for Hillary did not. That doesn’t make any sense to me.

          The argument you make is also fundamentally undemocratic, in that, by denigrating choices other than D or R it goes against the fundamental principle of one person, one vote, and the idea that everyone’s votes should be equal.

          I also offered an olive branch to you, urging you to support a candidate most, of not all, progressives can support so we don’t have to make the choice of voting for a corporate Democratic toad or for a real progressive in a third party, but you refused to even acknowledge that there might be common ground between us. Why is that?

          Finally, when have I ever called Bernie Sanders a “sheepdog?” The answer is “Never.” Not once. Check your facts before making accusations, please.

          We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

          With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

  • #69339

    KenTankerous
    Member
    • Total Posts: 461
    @kentankerous

    Righteous rant, my friend.

    "If we define an American fascist as one who in case of conflict puts money and power ahead of human beings, then there are undoubtedly several million fascists in the United States."
    - Henry A. Wallace

  • #69825

    Maedhros
    Member
    • Total Posts: 196
    @maedhros

    Here’s my take:

    Trump is A problem, but he is not THE problem.

    “The problem” is that both of our political parties are effectively corporate agents, placed in office to enact policies that allow for ever greater dominance of our society by capitalist enterprises.  This is news to nobody on this site.

    What irks me about the current demonization of Trump is that Democrats pretend that removing Trump will magically fix what’s wrong. It won’t, because the fault lines running through our democracy were made by Democrats and Republicans alike.   I’m an anti-war voter.  Objective analysis of the last half-dozen or so Presidents shows that Trump is no better, and no worse, than any of them when it comes to war crimes – with one exception:  Trump  did not claim unto himself the power to declare citizens to be Enemies of the State and then execute them without due process of law, so that sets Obama a little higher on the “despot” scale than both Bush and Trump.  Trump wins hands-down when it comes to overall bellicosity and repugnancy though.

     

    His body recovered from his torment and became hale,
    but the shadow of his pain was in his heart;
    and he lived to wield his sword with left hand
    more deadly than his right had been.

  • #71562

    djean111
    Member
    • Total Posts: 2,039
    @djean111

    @ohiobarbarian

    IMO useless to expend logic or reason on a vote-for-the-blue-no-matter-who stringer.  With a side of hilarity because the result of not kissing Hillary/Biden/Vichy Dem ass at another site is immediate banning.  Also funny to see the “Bernie says vote for a Vichy Dem” bullshit bobbing to the surface again, too.  Maybe cult members do not understand that everybody else is not in a cult, and if Bernie supporters are voting on the issues, it would be fucking insane to vote for a Vichy Dem who will “work across the aisle”.

    Starting to look to me, given the early VFTBNMW vehemence, that perhaps the primary, once again, has been rigged.  I will re-register as a Dem in order to vote for Bernie in the primary – because a Vichy Dem will fuck up MY life just as much as the people who voted for it – and will vote for Bernie or Green in the general if Bernie is not the candidate.

    Who is worse on racism, corporatism, war, climate change, and austerity than Trump?  Hillary, Biden, and the rest of the Vichy Dems.  With a smoother runway.

    Oh, and guess what, @algernon ?  We ARE campaigning for Bernie.  And keep in mind, because WE do, that the DNC is quite up front in declaring that, as a private corporation, it most certainly CAN rig the primaries.  So of course we take that into consideration.  If I was stupid enough to ignore that, I would still be at SV.   Ha!  I was banned, or my login was deleted, not because of any post there, but, I suppose, because of my posts here.  An honor, really!

    If you think tedious authoritarianism with a side’o’scorn is going to make you into a bellwether for any Vichy Dem – you really need another task to put your effort into.

    I will not vote for a Vichy Dem. Period. As always, I decide who is a Vichy Dem.

    Bernie's ISSUES or Bust!

    • #71575

      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 6,330
      @ohiobarbarian

      It may be useless, but I kind of enjoy it. What can I say?

      I’ve said elsewhere so many times, and am sure the poster to whom I responded knows this, that the Vichy Dems are enemies of progressives every bit as much as Republicans are, so voting for them is voting for someone who we know will not try to do what we think must be done. We need look no further than Bill Clinton or Barack Obama to prove that point.

      Then there’s the whole “Everything will be hunky-dory if we just get rid of that orange aberration in the White House. That is the most important thing, and if you don’t agree with that, then you are a Trump supporter.”

      The first premise is factually erroneous: Trump is a feature of our current system, not a bug, and would never have had a chance had it not been for Obama and the Clintons. The second sentence soars to such a pinnacle of illogic that Mr. Spock would find Dr. McCoy at his most emotional to be far more logical.

      I have no illusions that the Vichy Dems will not try to rig the nomination. Will they succeed? I don’t know; ultimately it may come down to fate. We’ll find out soon enough. If they do, I will withhold my vote from their candidates, no matter what any politician tells me to do.

      Finally, thanks for making the comparison between JPR and SV. Like you, I was banned from there just because someone noticed I posted here. I had no OPs, and only a few innocuous replies. Here, someone can argue to vote for the lesser evil or to be loyal to the Democratic Party all they want and not get banned so long as they don’t violate the terms of service and otherwise advocate for progressive causes, or at least refrain from advocating against them all the time.

      Doesn’t mean they won’t get pushback, though.

      We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

      With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

  • #71589

    David the Gnome
    Member
    • Total Posts: 1,137
    @davidthegnome

    @algernon

    You are setting the bar pretty low.  As far as I am aware, none of the candidates running are white Nationalist neo-nazis.  So, uhm, great?  They are still upheld by and obligated to multiple corporations and wealthy individuals.  This is particularly so in the case of candidates like Joe Biden.  Whatever their personal feelings as regards one particular war or another, or climate change, or policy in general… may as well be irrelevant.  They will vote to empower goldman sachs, Lockheed Martin, Amazon, Walmart, among many others – and we may as well add wealthy individuals like Donald Trump himself.  If “Not as awful as Trump!” is good enough for you, that’s fine.  Me, I prefer someone who has a record that demonstrates a history of being against our wars of regime change, in favor of economic reform, renewable energy, healthcare for all and free (by free I mean tax payer funded) university tuition.

    If you need examples of why Joe Biden is a bad candidate, I can give them to you – they are primarily based on his voting record.  Not what he has said – but what he has done from positions of power.  Most of the current candidates have similar histories – those that actually have any kind of political history, anyway.  Would any of them make a better President than Trump?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  As far as I am concerned, both respect and trust are things to be earned – and I believe Bernie Sanders has earned a considerable amount of both.  As far as I am concerned, most of the others have not – either they are unknown quantities, or they are democrats in the same way that Joe Biden is a democrat.  They have voted for war after war, one poor economic/wall street/education decision after another, they have enabled and even promoted a dysfunctional prison system, they have argued against ideas like free college, using arguments that, frankly, they should be ashamed of.

    To be more specific… people are declaring bankruptcy due to medical debt every year.  We are over one trillion in student loan debt that bankruptcy cannot discharge.  Over one trillion in credit card debt.  Our federal deficit is projected to be bad enough to leave us buried in debt for many generations to come.  We do not need someone “not as bad as Trump”, we need someone good.  We need someone who has both the knowledge and the courage to take on the status quo, to challenge it – otherwise it will not be altered.  The Obama Presidency offered many, many examples of this.

    Our debt increases while revenue decreases.  An overwhelming majority of Americans do not earn a living wage.  Tens of millions do not have healthcare.  We have no reliable public transportation throughout the overwhelming majority of the Country.  Our roads, bridges and schools are crumbling.  Our infrastructure in general is falling apart.  We need someone equal to the challenge.  Trump doesn’t give a damn about anything but profit – and I have my doubts that he’s even really a white Nationalist/Neo Nazi – more likely that’s all playing to the crowd, his rabid, koolaid drinking supporters.

    That doesn’t mean that drinking the blue koolaid is any better.  Where are the proposals and solutions coming from camp Biden?  Harris?  Gillibrand?  Buttigieg, Booker?  Anything contained therein that is going to actually resolved any of our major problems right now?  I haven’t seen it.  What I see is a group of corporate sycophants hoping to maintain the status quo, this will not improve anything – and without improvement…

    Without improvement our schools will fail even worse.  Our roads and bridges will actually collapse on a more regular basis, the crisis on the borders will remain.  There will be no relief for those seeking or paying for higher education.  There will be no relief (other than, perhaps, bankruptcy) from medical debt.  I have yet to see another candidate with proposed solutions anywhere near the level of what Bernie Sanders proposes.  I do have knowledge of their history though – and of their voting records.

    You are free to vote for the candidate of your choice.  What I am saying is that “Biden sucks less than Trump” is not a convincing argument (assuming it is even true as regards their Presidential potential).  That Biden isn’t a Neo Nazi… not a convincing argument.  That Biden isn’t an extreme climate change denier is not a convincing argument.  The President under which he served as VP was one of the most wall street, corporate friendly Presidents in the history of the US.  That is Biden’s experience.

    I can give you plenty of positives about my preferred candidate.  I see very little to go around as regards the usual suspects.

  • #103913

    gordyfl
    Member
    • Total Posts: 454
    @jamesgordon

    In the past, occasionally I had voted for Independent candidates. In 1996 I heard Ralph Nader was running for president. I was excited and couldn’t wait to cast my vote for the consumer advocate. When the sample ballot arrived I discovered he wasn’t on the ballot in my state. I was disappointed.

    In 2000 Nader WAS on the ballot and I looked forward to voting for him, but I “chickened out” because the polls were showing a very close race here in Florida. I might have stayed with Nader but Al Gore was promoting his “Locked Box” policy for Social Security, which sounded pretty good. Besides, I did not like Bush at all. After the election my conscience bothered me for not going with my preferred choice – Nader.

    Four years later I finally voted for Nader — and it felt good!

    I still look carefully at ALL the candidates, then decide.

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.