Can We EVEN HAVE This Discussion ???
April 18, 2020 at 8:08 AM - Views: 184 #304685WillyTParticipant
- Total Posts: 682
We have a narcissistic (Add your own here) psychotic as President.
He might just get more and more of us killed because the wiring in his brain.
Is our hate for the Dem Establishment so great, that we cannot discuss ???
Look… their are very strong voices and personalities on this site, and I encourage them, but…
I Remember when I first joined that OTHER site…
They intimidated me… I took a LONG time to make my first dive into the pool.
I really hope we’re not doing the same thing here.
April 18, 2020 at 8:16 AM #304688Fugitive BirdieParticipant
- Total Posts: 317
Always remember that the DNC chose the higher probability of electing Trump over and over again so that they could destroy the left, retain their power, and offer Americans nothing at all.
I fear that after four years of Biden outsourcing more jobs, starting more wars, and pushing more corporate power on us, we will open our eyes and realize we are now fascists with no dissent allowed. The media already has a hollow fascist sound.
April 18, 2020 at 8:38 AM #304692SatanParticipant
- Total Posts: 4,959
When Joe Biden still had a functional brain, he was a warmongering PNAC signator, a shill for the most criminal elements of the banking industry, a serial groper, helped create the prison industrial complex, and put Clarence Thomas on the Supreme Court…. perhaps because he thought that would somehow redeem his image in the African American community, after being pro-segregation until at least the mid 70s.
Now he’s all of that PLUS late stage dementia, and DURING THE WORST PANDEMIC SINCE 1918, WITH MILLIONS SUDDENLY UNEMPLOYED he said he would VETO a Medicare for All bill as President, even if it passed both houses. Because employer-based corporate insurance sure works great when you’re out of work, right??
So, I’m honestly shaking my horns trying to find even one significant way that Biden would be better than Cheeto. And I’m not coming up with anything. On the unlikely chance that he would pick a genuine progressive running mate, we could always hope that person could be the Anti-Cheney and actually run the government while Joe takes several naps a day, like his idol Ronnie Reagan.
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable". - John F. Kennedy
April 18, 2020 at 8:55 AM #304698jbnwParticipant
- Total Posts: 4,871
But I think many, if not most, of us think that the current Democratic party is run to support corporations, not people as it once was (at least I like to think it once was!)
So I will support however anyone wants to vote after their careful consideration of the issues – DNC nominee (which may or may not be Biden), Bernie or other write-in, third party, stay at home, or even Trump.
Note the “after careful consideration” – it’s not an easy question, especially this year. Every time I think the major parties have scraped the bottom of the barrel, they find a worse barrel.
April 18, 2020 at 9:22 AM #304704David the GnomeParticipant
- Total Posts: 3,147
Defeating Trump doesnt do us much good if the status quo remains – that is how we got Trump.
Biden has no policies that are particularly progressive, or that we can even trust him to support. He IS a hawk, so I think there is a good possibility he would turn up the heat with Russia or Iran. Trump is already doing a good job pissing off China.
There is also the fact that he is accused of sexual assault – and parents and grandparents dont trust him with their kids.
No policies, no moral character, no integrity. Not even a sound mind.
We can talk about it, but I’m not sure why we should bother.
April 18, 2020 at 9:26 AM #304707
April 18, 2020 at 9:55 AM #304715Blue MeanyParticipant
- Total Posts: 214
Trump’s most redeeming quality. After all, practically everything he wanted to do, at least domestically, I was opposed to…but this has made me reconsider to vote for Biden. Now I have look at what he is doing to accelerate climate change and what he has failed to do to curtail COVID-19. I have to also consider the process currently underway between the Biden and Sanders campaigns, which will, I think push Biden past his comfort zone to the left. This is simply because his campaign is realizing that he is going to lose if he doesn’t do that. The two issues I am watching closely are climate change and health care. I’ll see where the campaign ends up and what evidence there is that they intend to follow through on their promises, if elected. I know that Trump will flank him on the left with rhetoric about health care, at least, but he’s not believable and it is scary as hell to have a narcissist in this position. Thus, I will probably vote for Biden this time, but after that I favor developing a third party and pushing rank choice voting to make third parties more viable. In the interim, maybe a third party can operate like the Liberal Party in NY used to, sometimes running their own candidates and sometimes endorsing candidates from the larger parties.
April 18, 2020 at 10:37 AM #304717doh1304Participant
- Total Posts: 1,632
I tried to discuss whether Obama’s failure was intentional or not. (at the time I thought it probably wasn’t) That was 2009 and the bullies were already out and unassailable. Here Betty Karlson can, after only 233 posts, give a clear and rational argument for voting for Trump, and the only comments were positive. Start any conversation you think is worth having
April 18, 2020 at 1:31 PM #304742Cold Mountain TrailParticipant
- Total Posts: 12,932
waiting to see what happens between now and the election.
usually the dems have to put up some opposition when the R wants to do something dreadful, and nothing when the d wants to do the dreadful, but it hasn’t seemed to work like that recently.
April 18, 2020 at 1:33 PM #3047433fingerbrownParticipant
- Total Posts: 3,628
If we can’t have a discussion here, than I’m at the wrong site. Please, discuss away, and I will defend your right to discuss whatever you like here at JPR to my death, or, even worse, my permanent banning from these pages!
All governments lie to their citizen's, but only Americans believe theirs.
April 18, 2020 at 6:44 PM #304779djean111Participant
- Total Posts: 6,277
likely not going to happen. Plenty of discussions, with points and reasons, are to be found here. But “having a discussion” is a lot different than “other people agreeing with me”. Personally, I will soon just not click on obvious vote for Biden posts, or read them and not bother with a reply or a like. For myself, I just state what I think and what I will do, I don’t try to persuade anyone else to my way of thinking. JPR is composed of lots of people who are capable of making their own decisions. But getting feelings hurt when others do not agree is not a good thing for being on a political board.
“People just do not understand” is sometimes really “people will not agree with me, even though I think my opinion was stated persuasively”. And we all have different frames of reference, which makes things more complicated and more interesting. IMO. Best not to feel like disagreement is actually rejection. No one’s opinion is worth more than the opinion of everybody else. That’s all.
America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)
Everything I post is just my opinion, and, honestly, I would love to be wrong.
April 18, 2020 at 7:10 PM #304784Electrolyte OrchestraParticipant
- Total Posts: 384
Please don’t feel intimidated. If you have salient points on why Biden would make a good president, one worth us voting for, please make them.
I believe the party is approaching a tipping point, and it may or may not get there soon. A Biden administration would stave off, for at least a decade, their autopsy of what keeps going wrong, why their numbers are falling, why young people are fed up with them. It would affirm their kneecapping of Bernie, their wasting 4 years with distractions like RussiaGate, #Resistance, rejecting M4A, etc.
The same consultant and lobbyist parasites would be back in power, handing the reins to their private equity pals, telling us how petulant we are, doing nothing to help working class regular people.
A Biden loss just might make them look in the mirror, or at the very least help galvanize an actual counterbalance to the GOP if they again keep the heads deep in the sand. After 4 years of Trump they haven’t learned a thing other than how to cheat Bernie even harder. That needs to change. It won’t if it nets them the White House. The sleaze will simply get applied to more and more.
If you think a Biden administration will advance quality policies, please explain how and why.
A simple comparison of Biden’s votes, actions, speeches and proposals vs those of a garden variety republican will yield startling similarities.
“The creatures outside looked from democrat to republican, and from republican to democrat, and from democrat to republican again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
April 18, 2020 at 7:22 PM #304789
April 18, 2020 at 8:17 PM #304805Betty KarlsonParticipant
- Total Posts: 467
It is not: see this thread
But I will admit that my decision not to vote for Biden is made easier by knowing that he could have been prosecuted for rape.
April 18, 2020 at 8:43 PM #304813Ohio BarbarianModerator
- Total Posts: 21,304
Many others here are not socialists like I am, but are mostly progressives in one way or the other. For me, the bumper sticker the Biden campaign is currently offering speaks volumes about the utter contempt they have for people like me. It looks something like this:
There’s a “Proud” just above or below the Democrat with an arrow between the two. Now, if you’re a socialist, just how are you supposed to interpret this? It sure seems to me like they’re telling me I have no place in their party, so tell me, Willy, exactly why should I vote for them?
If you want to have a discussion, you have to be able to answer questions like that.
It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs
You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton
April 18, 2020 at 9:04 PM #304828Electrolyte OrchestraParticipant
- Total Posts: 384
One of my pet peeves was what I now think of as ‘to Spaniel’ – drop a turd and walk away. They had endless threads in which someone would start off with a controversial take and never be heard from in the thread again. They’d just start a new thread with another controversial take, and on and on they’d go, stirring the pot, never discussing.
We should be on the lookout for that too, don’t you think?
April 18, 2020 at 9:04 PM #304829N2DocParticipant
- Total Posts: 8,843
There are a few areas where I think a Biden Administration would be better than Cheeto II:
- He (or rather his minders) will appoint fewer RWNJ judges to lifetime appointments. I am sure they will all be corporatists, but they won’t be the corporatists+American Taliban types Trump’s minders have been appointing. If the Turtle remains in charge of the Senate, unlikely many get confirmed. But still, that stems the tide of RWNJ judges for 4 years.
- While there won’t be any reduction in our forever wars, I am less skeptical than others here that he would advance it more. Taking Obama as his guide here, Biden is likely to be less hostile towards Cuba and Venezuela, and maybe Iran, than Trump. People seem to think Trump hasn’t started any new wars, I think the people of these countries would disagree. He certainly hasn’t ended any, closed any bases, or left any countries that we occupy. Remember Obama did try to open access to Cuba a bit, and had that much maligned treaty with Iran. Biden’s minders might try to mess more with Syria, but that horse has left the barn, so to speak. And he couldn’t be worse that Trump in dealing with Israel.
- His minders are likely to have appointed agency heads who are less aggressive in destroying our environment and dismantling regulatory structure. Doesn’t mean they will be great, but ye Gods what a bunch of scum Trump has appointed. Hopefully these Biden appointees will be more open to actually preparing for and rationally responding to emergencies. We know what the present situation is.
Biggest negative I see:
Biden wants to be a Republican, govern like one. So the biggest worry is that he will manage to get enough support from his own party to destroy Social Security and Medicare/medicaid. I think they would try to do this even if it meant the total annihilation of the Party. The money from the Oligarchs is just too good to pass up. Trump may try to do this too, under cover of the gigantic deficits in years to come, but is likely to have near total Democratic opposition in that case.
April 18, 2020 at 9:17 PM #304834Jim LaneParticipant
- Total Posts: 828
The biggest problem is that people begin from different starting points, which are so far apart that further discussion basically goes nowhere.
Let me clarify with an example of the opposite. On health care, everyone here (AFAIK) has the starting point of wanting universal availability of health care. The industrialized countries other than the U.S. have different ways of getting there. In the U.K., there really is a “government takeover of health care” (the Republican talking point, or screeching point, here). The National Health Service is run by the government. Other countries have a system that’s more like what Medicare for All would be, where everyone is covered but the doctors are not all government employees. On JPR, we could have a discussion about the comparative merits of the different models.
That’s not the case for electoral politics. You ask, “Is our hate for the Dem Establishment so great, that we cannot discuss ???” For many JPR members (probably a majority, at least a majority of the active posters), the starting point is indeed hate for the Democratic Party establishment. You’ll see posts ascribing to the DNC developments that were, to the rest of us with different starting points, quite obviously not the work of the DNC.
For example, it’s not unheard of for states to want to move their primaries earlier in the calendar, perceiving that such scheduling will give them more influence. To some JPR members, though, the change in the date of the California primary, enacted by the California legislature, was actually engineered by the DNC, which had decided on Kamala Harris as the nominee and which had adjusted the primary schedule accordingly. The whole process of “voting” was just kabuki theater. Harris had been anointed, and, after all, the DNC picks the nominee.
If some people start with the premise that the DNC is totally controlling the nomination fight, while others reject that premise, it’s hard to have any kind of useful discussion.
We see the same thing with the prospect of Biden versus Trump. Most people who post on JPR start with “The DNC is evil, Biden and all the other ‘Vichy Dems’ are evil, I won’t vote for someone like that under any circumstances.” Others of us start with “Biden isn’t perfect, but nobody’s perfect, and the relevant question is whether Biden would be better than Trump (or, if you can’t stand phrasing it that way, whether a re-elected Trump would be even worse than Biden).” To those of us in the latter group, it’s hard to understand how anyone on the left can see no significant difference between the two. I presume that, to those in the former group, it’s hard to understand how anyone on the left can rationalize voting for someone as conservative as Biden.
Under these circumstances, the opportunity for any kind of fruitful discussion is pretty limited.
April 18, 2020 at 9:36 PM #304845closeupreadyParticipant
- Total Posts: 2,483
Even if I don’t reply.
Here’s an unsolicited tip from someone who has participated on IBB’s for a while – reply to things … and then close using the x in the upper right-hand corner, like I do for almost 75% of my posts here, lol.
The opinions and personal views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and should never be taken seriously.
April 18, 2020 at 10:04 PM #304858HassleCatParticipant
- Total Posts: 6,869
Many people are really, really upset that Bernie Sanders is no longer in the contest. The Democratic Party did what it has done for the past 40 years. They opted for the cynical politics of neoliberalism and shut down attempts to address progressive issues. They will nominate another in a long succession of presidential candidates who pretend to be progressive. They wallow in shameless identity politics. If they sat down and composed a list of words and actions designed to alienate progressives, they would have pretty much what is on Joe Biden’s teleprompter right now. Progressives would enjoy some kind of revenge, and the best revenge would be another four years of Donald Trump. But helping to bring that about would be cutting off your nose to spite your face, as the old saying goes. The other option is to vote for Joe Biden. We are stuck between a rock and a hard place, to use another old saying. No, we can’t have a meaningful discussion about what to do. If I say I will vote for Biden and worry more about electing progressives at other levels, I will provoke some outrage, maybe even some personal insults. I would be happy to discuss my position, but I have no real evidence I’m doing the right thing. In fact, there is pretty good evidence voting for Biden is wrong on every level, so I can’t get too upset if somebody calls me an idiot (or worse) for suggesting it. So we can try to discuss many things, but it’s not going to go well.
April 18, 2020 at 10:06 PM #304859D503Participant
- Total Posts: 313
my vote has no affect on the outcome, as MO is a trump state(!%#?). But I would find it reprehensible to see that smug POS winning a second term as if he thinks he deserves it. I have no love for Biden but the dem choices of who to lead particular agencies seem to have mostly been better than the RWers.
To me, that’s more important than who is president, and who will pick the next SC judge and so forth. These people have done enormous damage to this nation’s citizens. Any reprieve would be welcome.
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." - Asimov; "If you push something hard enough, it will fall over." - Fud's First Law of Opposition
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