Dear Progressives for Warren: Your Class Is Showing

Homepage | Forums | Main Forums | General Discussion | Dear Progressives for Warren: Your Class Is Showing

Viewing 6 reply threads
  • Author
    Posts
    • #113637
      Cold Mountain Trail
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 9,927

      The Fascist-in-Chief has activated the darkest, most reactionary, most dangerous elements of American society, bringing them out of the shadows and into the light of the mainstream…And Americans, especially progressives, are desperately searching for treatment…We need a heroic daddy; a smart, stable mommy…This is what it feels like being on the left in American politics today, to say nothing of us Marxists, anarchists, and other political runaways hitchhiking on the road to climate perdition. But, unfortunately, feelings aren’t going to stop fascism. Rather, we must stick to the facts. We must allow the material reality of this political moment to guide our analysis.

      And it is from that perspective that we must understand that the real separation between Sanders and Warren isn’t man versus woman, heroic daddy versus nurturing mommy. It isn’t electability or likeability. No, what separates them is class: which class supports them, which class’s aspirations and needs they represent, and which candidate has a class-based movement behind them.

      If you think you’re reading the words of some “Bernie Bro” you’re way off. I didn’t support Sanders in 2016, and in fact saw him as part of an effort to rope the left back into the Democratic Party… I’ve repeatedly and openly attacked Sanders for his extreme blind-spot for US imperialism…I’ve noted that Sanders is not only not a socialist, but in fact is closer to mainstream FDR-style liberalism than anything resembling socialism.

      But despite all that, today in Summer 2019, there is no doubt about the class nature of Bernie’s movement. This is a working class movement, not simply a campaign…Sanders has risen to become unquestioningly the most powerful and resounding voice of the American working class. Attend any Sanders event and you see this in action: working class immigrants, broke students and recent graduates, disabled and/or elderly pensioners, union workers, etc…. at Bernie’s events this is genuine and represents an accurate snapshot of the working class in America which is majority non-white.  While Sanders goes to Skid Row and snubs liberal kingmaker rituals like Netroots Nation, Warren passes the collection plate among the Forever Hillary liberal crowd.

      I’m the first to say that Sanders isn’t exactly my ideal communist revolutionary…hell, he’s not even really a socialist in the true sense of the word. But for this moment, after three years of Trump-addled political fog, he represents the revolutionary upsurge in American politics. Warren represents a moderate, reform-oriented tinkering with the system…

      Dear Progressives for Warren: Your Class Is Showing

    • #113814
      incognito
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,052

      I’ve never looked at the Bernie – Warren differences as a class issue, but it fits.

      Bernie supports Medicare for All – Warren doesn’t. Why not?

      Bernie supports forgiving ALL student debt – Warren doesn’t. Why not?

      Bernie wants to make Wall St. pay their fair share – Warren doesn’t. She just wants to tweak the way Wall St. Works…nothing meaningful. Why not?

      Bernie’s a Democratic Socialist – Warren said she’s a Capitalist.

      (on edit)

      Warren also voted for the MIC MURDER MONEY BUDGET, $700 BILLION

      Bernie voted No.

      War is a HUGE class issue. Not many millionaires/billionaires send THEIR kids off to fight in all these illegal wars.

      Yeah, the class thing works.

      It also goes hand in hand with what she did to him when she didn’t endorse him before the 2016  Massachusetts primary. She really did want the Corporatist Warmongering Felon to win.

       

      • #113894
        Two way street
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,836

        Well said, Incognito.  Warren does not want what the 80% want.

        2020 Campaign Season: We the People are in the fight for our lives and livelihoods.

      • #114289
        Jim Lane
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 579

        You write: “Bernie supports Medicare for All – Warren doesn’t. Why not?”

        The premise of your question is false.  Warren supports Medicare for All.  In 2017, when Bernie introduced his Medicare for All bill, Warren was one of the original co-sponsors.  The complete list is here: https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/1804/cosponsors

        Bernie held a press conference to rally support for the bill, and Warren joined him at the podium.  Link: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/13/bernie-sanders-unveils-medicare-for-all-plan-with-16-co-sponsors.html

        This year, with the new Congress in office, Bernie again introduced a Medicare for All bill.  I think he tweaked it a little from the previous version, but one fact remains the same: Warren is again an original cosponsor.  List: https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/1129/cosponsors

        • #114301
          djean111
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 4,672

          @jimlane

          For me, Warren has a believability issue – public face/private face Hillary thing comes to mind.  It is easy to co-sponsor a bill that you are pretty sure will not pass, but will make you look good to Bernie’s supporters.  I cannot see an avowed lover of the markets actually trying to implement Medicare for All.   Warren is pretty clear that she is a Capitalist and Bernie is a Socialist.  Deeds and record, not just words/campaign rhetoric.  Words are cheap, and if Wall Street likes Warren, I doubt they are worried that she would get rid of the health insurance vampire squid, and the profits they make from that.

        • #114302
          Dudester
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 438

          Jim, pal….

          If there’s support from Warren on M4A, then where is there no mention of it ANYWHERE on her campaign website, huh? HUH?

          Also, Means Testing is a right-wing concept which needs to be abandoned, and that’s what Warren is proposing for cutting students’ debts. It won’t work, and there’s a cap. Forget it. We need to consider the fact that cancelling student debt will not only help everyone, but will give them something they have not had before: Financial freedom.

           

          • #114525
            Jim Lane
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 579

            You write:

            Jim, pal….

            If there’s support from Warren on M4A, then where is there no mention of it ANYWHERE on her campaign website, huh? HUH?

            Took me about 30 seconds, tops, to find the page https://elizabethwarren.com/issues#rebuild-the-middle-class — which states her support for Medicare for All and includes a call for “an Ultra-Millionaire Tax on America’s 75,000 richest families” to help pay for it.

            I have no problem with people who disagree with Warren on specific points.  I disagree with her on some points, and I disagree with Bernie on some points.  What I bemoan is that the standard of proof on JPR seems to be that unsupported charges are perfectly OK if they’re launched against someone the poster dislikes.  It reminds me of the attitude toward people like Susan Sarandon on a website that I’m not allowed to name here.

            • #114541
              Ohio Barbarian
              Moderator
              • Total Posts: 17,266

              @jimlane  No, Jim, that’s not a valid analogy. There are legitimate concerns about Warren from a progressive standpoint, especially one made cynical by observing political corruption for a lifetime.

              Warren was a Republican not all that long ago. Yellow flag. She says she’s a proud capitalist, which is a red flag for me because I am a socialist, but should be at least a yellow one for progressives for two reasons. First, she’s telling our ruling oligarchy that she will do nothing to fundamentally change the underlying economic system. Progressives want fundamental change because our very existence as a species, or at least that of our grandkids, is literally at stake in this election.

              Capitalism stands in the way of truly adapting to climate change, because the only goal of capitalism is more profit soonest. It really is that simple. Capitalism must at least be reined in hard, or we’re all fucked.

              Second, Goldman-Sachs and other Wall Street criminals have let it be known that they can live with Warren. Progressives do not want to see that criminal class continue to live as they have been living. In fact, some of them should be going to prison.

              With Elizabeth Warren, we have someone with plans that would have been great in the 1980s, but our civilization just needs more than what she is offering. Bernie Sanders clearly understands what needs to be done with a greater since of urgency than that displayed by Warren thus far.

              And in the end, it comes down to this:

              With Bernie, we have the receipts!–Nina Turner

              PS: I’d love to quote her on SV, but alas! For some reason, they won’t let me post there. The bourgeois part of my mind finds that rather rude.

              It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

              Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

              • #118671
                Jim Lane
                Participant
                • Total Posts: 579

                Take note that I did not say “Elizabeth Warren is perfect.”  I didn’t even say she was better than Bernie; if my primary were held today I would vote for Bernie.

                The specific issue was the allegation that Elizabeth Warren doesn’t support Medicare for All.  We’ve now clarified that she does.

                The analogy I drew is valid because both sites display intense binary thinking.  All politicians and institutions are either Designated Good or Designated Evil.  The two groups are populated differently on the two sites, of course, but the methodology is the same.  People are ready to assert and believe anything, on little or no evidence, if it’s favorable to a Designated Good or unfavorable to a Designated Evil.

                You’ll just have to guess about what other site I mean because JPR rules prohibit me from naming it.  I hope everyone reading this gets a warm fuzzy feeling knowing that you’re being protected from seeing a phrase that might cause you some kind of unspecified irreparable injury.

                • #119042
                  Ohio Barbarian
                  Moderator
                  • Total Posts: 17,266

                  Warren has come out for Medicare for All, that is true. All I’m saying is that progressives have good reason to have concerns about Warren.

                  And I don’t need to guess about the other site. I know it, albeit not as well as thou. Personally, I don’t see how you can stand the abuse Over There. You must be far more tolerant of fanatical neoliberal stupidity than I. I salute you.

                  It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

                  Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

            • #114723
              Cold Mountain Trail
              Participant
              • Total Posts: 9,927

              Jim, never mind my previous post.  it’s in the text i don’t know why the search function didn’t get it.

              the text of that page:

              Rebuild the Middle Class

              After decades of largely flat wages and exploding household costs, millions of families can barely breathe. For generations, people of color have been shut out of their chance to build wealth. It’s time for big, structural changes to put economic power back in the hands of the American people.

              That means putting power back in the hands of workers and unions. It also means transforming large American companies by letting their workers elect at least 40% of the company’s board members to give them a powerful voice in decisions about wages and outsourcing. And it means a new era of strong antitrust enforcement so giant corporations can’t stifle competition, depress wages, and drive up the cost of everything from beef to Internet access.

              As the wealthiest nation in the history of the world, we can make investments that create economic opportunity, address rural neglect, and a legacy of racial discrimination–if we stop handing out giant tax giveaways to rich people and giant corporations and start asking the people who have gained the most from our country to pay their fair share.

              That includes an Ultra-Millionaire Tax on America’s 75,000 richest families to produce trillions that can be used to build an economy that works for everyone, including universal childcare, student loan debt relief, and down payments on a Green New Deal and Medicare for All. And we can make a historic investment in housing that would bring down rents by 10% across America and create 1.5 million new jobs.

              https://elizabethwarren.com/issues#rebuild-the-middle-class

            • #114725
              incognito
              Participant
              • Total Posts: 4,052

               


              @jimlane

              Warren also voted for the MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX MURDER MONEY…$700 BILLION. I forgot that in my post.

              Warren’s bill keeps us in the horrendous ACA.

              Bernie will start phasing people into M4A IMMEDIATELY and everyone will be covered in 4 years.

              Her tweaking the ACA is not support for M4A. I don’t care how you try to spin it.

              And the link you posted took me to the Millionaire tax and it said that money would be a DOWN PAYMENT ON M4A. We don’t have time for her M4A INSTALLMENT PAYMENT plan. We need changes NOW. If she TRULY supported Bernie’s plan, she wouldn’t be trying to tweak the ACA.

              REBUILD THE MIDDLE CLASS

              After decades of largely flat wages and exploding household costs, millions of families can barely breathe. For generations, people of color have been shut out of their chance to build wealth. It’s time for big, structural changes to put economic power back in the hands of the American people.

              That means putting power back in the hands of workers and unions. It also means transforming large American companies by letting their workers elect at least 40% of the company’s board members to give them a powerful voice in decisions about wages and outsourcing. And it means a new era of strong antitrust enforcement so giant corporations can’t stifle competition, depress wages, and drive up the cost of everything from beef to Internet access.

              As the wealthiest nation in the history of the world, we can make investments that create economic opportunity, address rural neglect, and a legacy of racial discrimination–if we stop handing out giant tax giveaways to rich people and giant corporations and start asking the people who have gained the most from our country to pay their fair share.

              That includes an Ultra-Millionaire Tax on America’s 75,000 richest families to produce trillions that can be used to build an economy that works for everyone, including universal childcare, student loan debt relief, and down payments on a Green New Deal and Medicare for All. And we can make a historic investment in housing that would bring down rents by 10% across America and create 1.5 million new jobs.”

              Elizabeth Warren Lays Out Plan To Hold Health Insurers Accountable

              For the first component, Warren would forbid insurance practices that she dubbed “cheat[ing] people,” including drawing narrow boundaries for the network of health care providers they cover and rescinding coverage of certain drugs in the middle of the year.

              In the second part, Warren would subject private insurers to stricter cost and quality guidelines in order to achieve parity with Medicare and Medicaid. The senator noted that Medicare and Medicaid provide better value to consumers, covering 84 cents for every dollar of health costs, compared to private exchange plans, which tend to cover 60 to 70 cents for every dollar of costs.

              The third plank, which is effectively Warren’s enforcement mechanism, is likely the most innovative idea. Borrowing from a model already in place in New York, Warren proposes requiring private insurers that bid on Medicare Advantage or Medicaid contracts to participate in the ACA exchanges.

              Private insurers have frequently lost money on their ACA exchange plans, but they’ve profited handsomely from their participation in Medicaid and Medicare Advantage. “<snip>

              https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5a6a0d00e4b01fbbefafbaf0

              Warren’s ACA 2.0 (And Bernie signed onto her bill which is just bizarre)

              She SAYS this is just UNTIL M4A can be implemented…riiiiight. We know how that goes – that means M4A goes in the dust bin of history. I don’t believe her as far as I can throw her.

              You can say anything – (kinda like how she said she supported Bernie in 2016 and then REFUSED to endorsed him in the primary – it was all talk), but doing it is where the proof is. She says  she supports M4A, but that means jack shit until she comes out with a M4A plan of her own. Where is it? It doesn’t exist – Her “plan” is a so-called Down Payment? Or tweaking the ACA? I don’t think so. We don’t have time for her healthcare installment plan. We need M4A NOW.

              Warren’s one page summary of her plan:

              The Consumer Health Insurance Protection Act – Senator Elizabeth Warren

              The Affordable Care Act put an end to some of the most egregious practices that insurance companies used to shift costs onto patients, including annual and lifetime coverage limits and discrimination against people with pre-existing conditions. But today, too many patients still have to battle with their insurance companies just to see a doctor or get a prescription filled. Insurance companies draw networks so narrow that patients struggle to find a doctor or get an appointment.1 Patients find out when they get a bill in the mail that they unwittingly relied on an outdated provider directory and now owe hundreds of dollars in unexpected costs for out-of-network care. 2 Insurance companies can drop doctors from their network in the middle of the plan year with no notice, suddenly jack up out-of-pocket costs for a cancer or MS drug,3 or rip up a plan at the end of the year and leave new mothers or patients dealing with a serious health condition scrambling to maintain access to their doctor.

              Also thanks to the Affordable Care Act, an historic number of Americans now have affordable health insurance coverage. But the more than 216 million individuals who rely on private insurance are facing rising out-of-pocket costs. Between 2005 and 2015, out-of-pocket costs for workers with employer coverage rose twice as fast as wages.5 Today, three out of every ten American adults with health insurance say they’re having a hard time paying their medical bills.6 Meanwhile, thanks to revenue from taxpayer-funded programs, insurance company profits are booming. The top insurers in the U.S. pull in nearly 60% of their revenue – more than $200 billion in 2016 – from Medicare and Medicaid, even as some of these same insurers claim they can’t afford to participate in the ACA exchanges.

              The Consumer Health Insurance Protection Act

              We must do more to hold insurance companies accountable by requiring them to providing coverage that is just as affordable and high-quality as coverage in public programs like Medicare and Medicaid. The Consumer Health Insurance Protection Act calls insurance companies’ bluff by putting an end to abuses that hurt patients and by requiring insurers making money off Medicare and Medicaid to step up to the plate in the ACA markets. The Act’s provisions include:

              • Setting limits on insurance company profits to match those private insurers can earn in Medicare and Medicaid
              • Instituting new protections to ensure all patients are notified when doctors are dropped from the network and are protected if they rely on an inaccurate provider directory or have a plan discontinued while in an active course of treatment
              • Prohibiting surprise bills for emergency room care
              • Requiring insurers generating revenues from Medicare Advantage or Medicaid managed care plans to offer coverage on the exchanges in areas with limited insurer competition.
              • Guaranteeing that every individual on the ACA exchanges has access to a plan that covers 80% of out-of-pocket costs and costs no more than 8.5% of income in premiums.
              • Protecting against unreasonable premium increases with stronger rate review standards
              • Requiring the tracking and analysis of consumer complaint data
              • Strengthening enrollment and outreach programs

              http://acasignups.net/18/03/21/major-updates-senate-democrats-introduce-their-own-aca-20-billand-look-whos-board-it

               

              • #118673
                Jim Lane
                Participant
                • Total Posts: 579

                Given that Medicare for All won’t be enacted anytime soon, the correct strategy for progressives is twofold:

                1. Keep pushing for Medicare for All, because even though it won’t be enacted anytime soon, it will never be enacted if we stop trying.  That’s how Medicare itself got enacted, with President Truman getting the ball rolling so that President Johnson could sign the bill into law years later.
                2. In the meantime, identify lesser improvements  (what you call “tweaks”).  These are, by definition, lesser, but also, by definition, improvements.  Some of them might get enacted.  Even if not, the debate over them will help expose how certain elected officials are totally in the pocket of big business — and the ones who oppose the “tweaks” are also the ones who oppose Medicare for All, so making them unpopular is a step forward.
        • #114624
          RobertFromNC
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 96

          @JimLane

          Personally, I really don’t get both the anti-Warren and anti-Tulsi progressives for that matter, nor do I get some of the criticisms against them, although I also do understand some of the criticisms as well. However, with that being said, I really don’t think that Warren, or Tulsi, would stand much of a chance in the election against Trump, nor do I think that either of them would accomplish nearly as much as Bernie. While I do feel that either of them would be much better than the rest of the field, I really feel that Bernie is our best chance by far of transforming the country in a progressive way. Warren and Tulsi are running on the correct platform with most of the right policy positions, but it takes a lot more than just that. I think that Tulsi is too inexperienced, not while not being influential enough, and Warren is too wishy-washy, and not enough of a fighter. Plus I think that Bernie would be great at using the bully pulpit.

           

           

          • #114714
            Ohio Barbarian
            Moderator
            • Total Posts: 17,266

            @robertfromnc That was very well-reasoned, IMHO.

            It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

            Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

          • #115774
            eridani
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 6,561

            And most importantly, all the other candidates are 4 years late in building the following that Sanders has.  His million volunteers will be necessary to overcome the MSM bias.  In 2016 they ignored Sanders, and wrote mainly about Clinton’s emails and Benghazi.  At the same time, they covered Trump’s speeches end to end, with only a crawl feed indicating actual Repub primary results.  Overcoming that will take massive people power that the other candidates just don’t have.

            Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

    • #113816
      djean111
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,672

      Just posted this elsewhere, and it seems to fit here, too –

      Warren is No Progressive.

      I suspect that Warren supporters and DNC Third Way types would be thrilled that they inserted a Wall Street approved Vichy Dem into office under a false flag, with the added thrill of believing they have upset Bernie’s supporters.  Well, first, I hope Wall Street/war  gets YOUR family first, sorry/not sorry.  And second, I would not be angry, nor would I vote for Warren.

      Warren has the approval of the DNC/Third Way/KOCH BROTHERS.   Why?  Because she is not progressive, and loves markets, and markets will fuck us over every single fucking time, and Warren knows that.  It is academic to her, IMO;  I don’t think poor people or people killed in war are actually real to her.  Maybe if they had bar codes and MIC numbers and CUSIP numbers and stock ticker symbols  tattooed on their foreheads, and could be “regulated”.  But the poor do not own stocks or qualify for credit cards and mortgages, so not her problem, is my impression.  So – I would not be “angry”, I would very calmly just not fucking vote for Warren, just like I would not vote for any other wall Street-approved corporate hawk Democrat.

      And labeling support of Bernie’s policies and refusal to support  corporate DNC policies as “cult behavior” – shove it up your butt.  Here is the cult – voting for a corporate Blue no matter who.  THAT, sweeties, is the cult.  Own it.

    • #113820
      joentokyo
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,026

      From the article:

      “Warren is praised by analysts on CNN and MSNBC while Sanders is marginalized and maligned. Why?

      Because while Bernie rides his white stallion to defend workers, it is Warren who is being tapped to ride in and save the ruling class from Bernie and the Sandernistas that are propelling his candidacy.”

      In my opinion, If she is elected, Warren will be another Obama: I would really like to do wonderful things, but those mean old Republicans block me.

      “A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves” ~ French philosopher Bertrand de Jouvenel (1903-1987)

    • #113892
      jwirr
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,651

      Excellent article. And it will help Bernie to be seen in a good light by those who are afraid of the “socialist” word.

      jwirr

      • #114034
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 17,266

        Not only that, but it helps Bernie to be seen in a good light by actual socialists.

        It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

        Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

    • #115351
      davidpdx
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 286

      I am 100% behind Bernie, but Warren is the only other person I would vote for if it were down to her and another Democrat. Maybe as someone said up thread that she is too Obama-like. While I realize Obama had his flaws, he wasn’t that bad.

      American living abroad in South Korea and a proud progressive.

      • #115820
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 17,266

        Today, I would consider voting for Warren if she were the Democratic nominee. That is subject to change, depending on the future. Difficult to see is the future. I know I would vote for Bernie if he were the Democratic nominee. He’s my first choice, but I don’t have to make any decisions right now on who else I may or may not vote for in November 2020.

        Better for the blood pressure.

        It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

        Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

    • #118888
      djean111
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,672

      Warren is being groomed as a Bernie substitute.  I am not going to vote for someone who has the approval of Wall Street and loves the markets.  Period.  Just more campaign pandering and blathering is all I hear and read.  Bernie or Green.  That’s it.

      • #118959
        game meat
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,297

        They’ve been pushing her as a more substantive Sanders. Bernie has ideas, but Warren “has a plan for that.” Of course, that isn’t true, but that’s never stopped them before.

        The main problem I’ve always had with her is how she presents as a lefty populist, but the dnc, corporate media, etc, have always been fairly supportive (at least relative to Sanders) of her. She gets mostly favorable coverage and, by choosing to not endorse Sanders in 2016, has proven that she plays by their rules first and foremost.

        If they trust her, that means we probably shouldn’t. imo.

Viewing 6 reply threads
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

Let's see if you can guess todays Trivia

As in good luck.