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Home Main Forums General Discussion Donald Trump is a greater threat to the Republic than any President in history.

  • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
    Moderator

    Donald Trump is a greater threat to the Republic than any President in history.

    Once upon a time, right after the Treaty of Paris in which the British Empire recognized American independence, there were two threats to the new Republic which were potentially as great. The first was the possibility that George Washington could have made himself King, or at least President-for-Life, which would have set a horrible precedent. Perhaps the greatest thing Washington ever did was to refuse to do that.

    The second one was John Adams with his Alien and Sedition Acts, which effectively banned dissent. Fortunately, he was vigorously opposed by the likes of Thomas Jefferson, and Adams himself, to his everlasting credit, did not try to void an election that did not go his way. He was too much of a republican to do that.

    Now we have a pathologically insane sociopathic narcissist for President who has nothing but contempt for the rule of law, for the Constitution, for checks and balances, for the very idea of a democratic republic. He may really be too stupid to understand those concepts, but that does not matter right now. It should be crystal clear that this man only cares about himself, and that he will do anything that he thinks he can get away with to protect himself, to increase his own wealth and power, and to see himself as the top news story. This is glaringly obvious to me, and, if the midterm elections are any indication, to the majority of the voting public. Which is a good thing, even if they voted for Democrats with whom we often disagree.

    Yet, it is not so obvious to some people on a progressive political forum, and the reasons why have been made clear to me over the last couple of years. Every time I and others whose first priority right now is to defend the Republic from the threat of Trump and his deplorably fascistic followers are falsely accused of advocating for Vote Blue No Matter Who, or being agents or stooges of the corporate Democrats or dark forces working within, say, the intelligence community, those reasons come out.

    I state for the record that I am a socialist who would like to see capitalism destroyed and replaced, but I am also realistic enough to know that that is very unlikely to happen within my lifetime. I am, therefore, willing to enthusiastically endorse European-style Social Democracy, or even a movement to take some huge steps in that direction, as personified by Bernie Sanders and all of those who support him. Even an FDR-style New Deal or LBJ-style Great Society would be a huge improvement over what we have now, though both contained the seeds of their own undoing by allowing capitalism to remain the dominant economic force.

    My very first OP to make the Daily Radical here was a history and scathing denunciation of the DLC/New Democrat/Third Way takeover of the Democratic Party, which I witnessed firsthand in the 1980s and 90s. I am the same person, and my views of people like the Clintons, Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, and others have not changed. What has changed is that right now, today, we have a President who has no empathy, no compassion, and no more loyalty to the country he leads than he has shown any of his wives, contractors, or employees his whole, self-aggrandizing and contemptible life.

    In short, if Donald Trump is allowed to do so, he will make himself a totalitarian dictator of a powerful nation, the likes of which has not been seen since Hitler, Stalin and Mao. He really is potentially that bad, and if you can’t see that, then you need to take your blinders off.

    I shouldn’t have to write this in the first place. If Mike Pence, Trump’s own cabinet, and people like McConnell and Ryan were more loyal to the Constitution than to their own donors, the 25th Amendment would have been invoked and this clinically insane monster would be running his own Reality TV news show by now, and probably have been happier than he is now, to tell you the truth. But they weren’t. Their donors were making money off of Trump’s policies, and they were so negligent and focused on their own partisan politics that they allowed the Republican Party to be taken over by a bunch of Fascists and neo-Nazis who don’t want democracy in the first place.

    So here we are, confronted by the clear and present danger of Donald Trump, and what are our best hopes for checking him, at least until the next elections? Barring economic or climatological disaster, both of which are only possible, there are four broad groups–the progressive wing of the Democratic Party, the corporatist wing of the same party, the courts, and the FBI. I have substantive policy differences with many members of the last three groups, but none of them are the fundamental threat to the Republic that Donald Trump is.

    I think some of you reading this are so blinded by your very understandable feelings of betrayal by the actions of the Democratic Party leadership, past and present, that you see them as the ultimate enemy. They’re not. For one thing, they’re somewhat divided themselves; for another, they at least believe that a Republic should exist. Trump doesn’t, and if you don’t see that by now there’s nothing more I can say to convince you. Besides, I believe that progressives can defeat them at the ballot box during the primary process because we have actually done that in some important elections. I, too, am tired of :banghead: against the big money donor-dominated Democratic Party, but I’d rather have to fight them than fight a Trumpian police state, and that is the other option right now.

    Some of you subscribe to theories of secret conspiracies that brought down past progressive champions such as JFK, RFK, and MLK, probably through the auspices of the FBI or CIA at the time, so you see their present versions as the Ultimate Threat, and Donald Trump as somehow being the Lesser Evil simply because he is opposed by them.

    If so, you couldn’t possibly be more mistaken. The FBI and CIA are bureaucracies, divided themselves, incapable of directly taking over the government by themselves. If they were the all-powerful bugaboos they are portrayed to be, as dedicated to removing President Trump as they are accused of being, then why the fuck is Trump still in the White House?

    The only logical answers to that question are that the intelligence agencies are either not as powerful as they are often portrayed, not as competent, or not that much of a threat to our democracy in the first place. Take your pick, but no matter which one you choose, they are still less of a threat than Trump. The very fact that he is still in office proves it.

    Robert Mueller may prove nothing, but that doesn’t mean there should be no Special Prosecutor looking into Trump’s criminality just because you don’t like what this one did in the past; Trump is a far greater danger to the Republic than the entire FBI, and if you can’t see that, I think you’re letting yourself be blinded by your own emotions and prejudices, which IMO, and Buddha’s, is usually a foolish thing to do anyway.

    I am not saying Vote Blue No Matter Who. That would be extremely hypocritical for someone who voted for the following in the last seven presidential elections: Bill Clinton, Ralph Nader, Ralph Nader, John Kerry, Barack Obama, Stewart Alexander, and Jill Stein. Of all of those, only my vote for John Kerry was a truly Lesser-of-Two-Evils vote when it was cast, and my reasons for it in 2004 should not need explaining here.

    I am saying that Donald Trump is a greater immediate threat to the Republic than any other President of the United States in American history, that he is a greater threat than any Vichy Democrat, intelligence agency, Mike Pence, foreign country, or even Jeff Bezos at this particular moment in history, and that part of the reason why is that he is so fundamentally stupid that he doesn’t know what the fuck to do other than to attempt to grab absolute power, for that is all he has known in his own disgusting little world for all of his life.

    If you don’t see that by now, I really don’t know what to say to you, other than please wake the fuck up before it’s too late. If you disagree, that is your right, but if you are here to argue that Donald Trump is the Lesser Evil, or that we should not support those who oppose him when they oppose him because they are not pure enough for you or because you disagree with them on other issues, issues on which we probably disagree with them as well, then don’t get upset when you get push back on a progressive forum, and remember that the rule against vote-shaming works both ways.

    In conclusion, Donald Trump is a Fascist who wants to be dictator. He must be opposed. He must be defeated. Here I stand. I can do no other.

    99Forever, Go Vols, RealityCheck and 24 othersHobbit709, BlueAK, zoewashburne, Koko, Major Hogwash, LaaDeeDaaVA, B Calm, eridani, TRex, peacecorps, Segami, ThomPaine, Utopian Leftist, chknltl, Charles, RufusTFirefly, Xyzse, davidthegnome, Tierra y Libertad, NV Wino, jwirr, D504, iggy, ravensong like this
    No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight

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    • davidthegnome (3418 posts)
      Donor

      1. My friend…

      For the most part, I agree with you.  Trump is indeed a mad, vicous, cruel, ignorant shit that requires flushing.  That the democrats took control of the House is…. somewhat positive, in my mind.  What I question (in part) is whether they have the courage or resolve that you and others demonstrate.

      It is popular to bash Trump – deservedly so – but how do you separate true servants of the people, of the republic, from the wolves in sheep’s clothing?  If we go by their voting records… we have precious few who give a damn about the right things, or even for the right reasons.

      A political shifting is a good thing.  The increase in progressive democrats and even (in some cases) the pretense some make at being such is somewhat positive.  The likes of Pelosi, Booker, Kaine, etc. may be merely playing to the crowd, but their votes are very much public – and the public is rather unforgiving of pretense once it is recognized.

      In any case, the threat is not with Trump alone – but with the system that enables him and those like him to rise to genuine power.  The dismantling, or at least the repairing, of our broken system, is, I think, ultimately more important than Trump or those like him.

      Trump is perhaps, a more immediate threat – but I do believe he will be removed shortly either via impeachment, resignation, or the end of his term.

      I think… part of the problem is that so many don’t think the problems can be solved.  For instance, with the proper motivation we could end subsidies for fossil fuel companies… not in five, ten, or even one hundred years… but next week, tomorrow, today.

      We can create a great deal of positive change – even to the extent of a progressive revolutions goal… within the next election cycle.

      Before we can fix things, I think we have to believe we can.  Faith in government and law overall is very, very low.  I think though – that focusing on the immediate problems like Trump to the exclusion of deeper rot, kicks the can down the road.

      We have to fight Trump effectively, to prevent the destruction of what remains of the republic, but I think we myst, at the same time, address the deep seeded issues of our society.  Economic and social injustice, inequality at levels that resemble or surpass the most corrupt empires of old.  A love of wealth and the wealthy that is misplaced.  A contempt for those in poverty in sickness.  Ignorance of the common good – often not even the pretense of giving a damn.

      If we each decided, today, to be the heroes we revere and/or seek, then no issue would be too big to solve.

      Trump is today’s evil madman, but if we don’t somehow weaken or destroy what created him… tomorrow’s will be worse.

       

      “There is no distinctly native American criminal class save Congress.” - Mark Twain
      • Bisbonian (462 posts)

        11. Agreed.

      • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
        Moderator

        14. And for the most part I agree with you, my thoughtful friend from Maine. I am

        convinced that Trump is an immediate threat, no perhaps about it, especially when one considers all of the swamp creatures he has appointed to positions of real power. The Acting Attorney General, who threatened those who sued a scam patents-assistance outfit and then refuses to recuse himself from a Justice Department of investigation, is only the latest in a long line.

        Yes, Trump is a symptom of a fundamentally corrupt system, specifically a product of a ratings-oriented media that forgot how to do true journalism a long time ago. I also think we can multitask by both opposing Trump and fighting to give ourselves a government that is for the people, not one that is sold to the highest bidder.

        Yes, we have to at least substantially weaken the sick system that created him and allowed him to float to the top on a bubble of hot air and fear, not to mention a well-justified loathing of his last principle opponent. We must not allow Hillary, or someone even almost as bad, to repeat her role in any possible 2020 sequel.

        No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
      • ThinkingANew (2117 posts)

        67. I agree. The other (Clinton) was exposed as having pushed Libya war

        as she thought she could use it to catipult her to president. That is just as seriously messed up and I have no doubt she would have also been a very authoritative leader just with a better facade.

        While I agree there are a number of threats at this time, I also think  a Pence presidency is an even larger threat.

        "(modern) newspapers publish nothing more than “weaponized text"" “When you read a newspaper article, you are reading weaponized text that is designed to affect a person just like you." Julian Assange  
        • Coldmountaintrail (9789 posts)
          Donor

          116. "just with a better facade"

          not so sure about that.  else she wouldn’t have done that stupid interview where she laughed about saddam – made her look like a looney female.

      • Silver Witch (7107 posts)
        Donor

        90. This right here. Truth. !!!!

        The OP’s ranting about the most dangerous person in the world proves how insane this next election will be.  Democrats screaming we must vote blue no matter how vile the blue candidate is!!

        Be prepared my friends it shall be horrible and terrifying and we will get the most horrid candidates because ANYONE IS BETTER THAN TRUMP.

        Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost~John Quincy Adams  
        • ozoneman (755 posts)
          Donor

          105. I totally agree.

          Trump, Clinton, they are just symptoms of our corrupt system if government.

          I will never vote for another 3rd way Democrat.

      • Entrepreneur (2997 posts)
        Donor

        102. I lean in your direction also DTG. I understand both sides, but I won't be

        easily convinced to fall back into the old pattern of voting for establishment characters out of fear.  Trump will likely drive us off a cliff. But I have already seen the D establishment death-by-a-million-cuts style of governing, and I have had my fill of it too.

        “The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness" - J.K. Galbraith
    • jwirr (5464 posts)
      Donor

      2. When I went in to work the phones at the DFL office I found myself working with

      one of the Hillary loyalists who I did not like in the 2016 primary. She said first thing that she did not like purists. So she remember me. I smiled and said I thought the party needed to do a lot of changing BUT not this time.” I them proceeded to work for Ds in this primary. I agree with your post.

    • Stockholmer (5368 posts)
      Donor

      3. as a non-denizen of the fruited plain, Cankles with 10,000 thermo-nukes in 2021

      worries me more.

      Hydrogen Hillary

      • ravensong (2846 posts)
        Donor

        7. She is not POTUS, and she's not relevant. Don't worry! she can't nuke you.

        She lost the election 2 years ago.

        The odds of Trump nuking you are infinitely greater.

        "Together, together, my friends, we have begun a political revolution to transform America, and that revolution, our revolution, continues!" ~  Bernie  
        • Stockholmer (5368 posts)
          Donor

          9. Which is why I prefaced it with 2021.

          If she runs, she has a shot (hopefully a very small one) of winning. She will come in loaded for bear, Russian bear. That equals a far greater nuclear risk to Europe than any plausible scenario under Trump. He is far too stupid to construct the hyper-reality matrix it would take to get the entire US nuclear weapon food-chain into action in terms of poking one of the major nuclear powers on the planet. I just don’t buy into that hype.

          • ravensong (2846 posts)
            Donor

            17. I promise you that Hillary Clinton will never nuke Scandinavia, Russia,

            or Toledo, Ohio.

            You can quote me on that.

             

            "Together, together, my friends, we have begun a political revolution to transform America, and that revolution, our revolution, continues!" ~  Bernie  
            • ThinkingANew (2117 posts)

              70. You need to read this. Hillary Emails Reveal True Motive for Libya Intervention

              Hillary is as Machiavellian as they come. She is crazed with power and I have no doubt if she ever won we would be looking at potential nuclear annihilation because she is crazy with overconfidence as well.

              https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2016/01/06/new-hillary-emails-reveal-true-motive-for-libya-intervention/

              Hillary Emails Reveal True Motive for Libya Intervention

              The New Year’s Eve release of over 3,000 new Hillary Clinton emails from the State Department has CNN abuzz over gossipy text messages, the “who gets to ride with Hillary” selection process set up by her staff, and how a “cute” Hillary photo fared on Facebook.

              But historians of the 2011 NATO war in Libya will be sure to notice a few of the truly explosive confirmations contained in the new emails: admissions of rebel war crimes, special ops trainers inside Libya from nearly the start of protests, Al Qaeda embedded in the U.S. backed opposition, Western nations jockeying for access to Libyan oil, the nefarious origins of the absurd Viagra mass rape claim, and concern over Gaddafi’s gold and silver reserves threatening European currency.

              "(modern) newspapers publish nothing more than “weaponized text"" “When you read a newspaper article, you are reading weaponized text that is designed to affect a person just like you." Julian Assange  
              • ravensong (2846 posts)
                Donor

                71. No I don't. I don't care. She lost. She's not in office.

                She’s irrelevant ancient history. You don’t have to try to convince me of anything.

                I voted for Jill Stein.

                It appears to me that the number of people who are terrified of Hillary Clinton, and the bizarre, disturbing obsession that many have with Hillary Clinton, 2 years after she was defeated, is borderline pathological.

                Whatever, Trump is still a greater threat to the Republic than any President in history.

                 

                 

                "Together, together, my friends, we have begun a political revolution to transform America, and that revolution, our revolution, continues!" ~  Bernie  
                • ThinkingANew (2117 posts)

                  74. So you defend HRC and others are pathological

                  when we argue her history.

                  In response to your defense?

                  You need to be clearer in your posts if you don’t want someone to argue a point. This is a DISCUSSION board after all right?

                   

                  "(modern) newspapers publish nothing more than “weaponized text"" “When you read a newspaper article, you are reading weaponized text that is designed to affect a person just like you." Julian Assange  
                  • ravensong (2846 posts)
                    Donor

                    75. I'm not defending Clinton. I'm saying that there are a lot people who seem

                    to be unhealthily obsessed with her, which is kind of bizarre, because she is so irrelevant. A non-factor.

                    Very often, when someone is critical of Trump, Hillary Clinton is injected into the conversation.  even two years after she lost the election.  It’s strange.

                     

                    "Together, together, my friends, we have begun a political revolution to transform America, and that revolution, our revolution, continues!" ~  Bernie  
                    • mossyfrog (854 posts)

                      104. What's

                      strange is your logic. So in your world view, when and if Trump leaves office (however that happens) we should then forget about all his crimes (whether known, unknown or eventually found out) because he is no longer in office or relevant? Should we then agree with Pelosi on Bush? Looking forward. Should we forget about Raygun and Bush 1 and the crimes they committed? I guess as long as the current political people hold out, without being caught while “relevant” they get a free pass because FEAR the current evil criminal.

                      We actually can do more things then one at the same time. Go ahead and fear Trump and do whatever you need to do to stop him but also dig deep and convict others whether relevant or not.

                      Oh and if you think HER is not dangerous still, I have a bridge for sell. Just because she lost doesn’t mean she’s not still powerful and dangerous.

                      Lets not be blinded by the most current fear, that we loss sight of all the evil s*** some have done and are still doing.

                      There’s also a lot of “unhealthily obsession” with Trump and the fear they feel from him (justified or not). Its just the opposite side of the same coin.

                      Those who learn nothing about history and do something about it, find themselves again right smack into the mess soon enough.

                      Green-logo-300x84 Join us and be truly Revolutionary!        
              • Coldmountaintrail (9789 posts)
                Donor

                117. another US-sponsored 'revolution for freedom'

                “special ops trainers inside Libya from nearly the start of protests, Al Qaeda embedded in the U.S. backed opposition”

                 

      • Salemcourt (1462 posts)
        Donor

        8. If she were the POTUS

        I also think we would be in more wars

        • ravensong (2846 posts)
          Donor

          18. Don't be afraid. I promise you, Hillary Clinton will not be starting any wars.

          You can quote me on that.

          "Together, together, my friends, we have begun a political revolution to transform America, and that revolution, our revolution, continues!" ~  Bernie  
          • Salemcourt (1462 posts)
            Donor

            98. Yes, indeed

            it was a great day when she lost and I was not afraid any longer,

      • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
        Moderator

        15. In case you haven't noticed, Hillary is NOT in the White House, and is therefore

        not the immediate threat to either the United States or to Sweden. Don’t worry, if she runs again, she can be defeated in the primary, because she must be defeated in the primary. She is, after all, who Trump most wants to face in 2020. In the end, that is the best argument against her.

        No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
        • Stockholmer (5368 posts)
          Donor

          59. already addressed the not in the WH part above

          I am not convinced if she decides to make a 3 try at the brass ring via the party she owns, she doesn’t have at least a small, but hardly nonexistent chance.

          Zero chance she gets in if she doesn’t have the fix in to veto Bernie.

          • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
            Moderator

            64. Agreed.

            No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
      • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
        Moderator

        24. And someone called ME hyperbolic? Wow, that mushroom cloud reminds of the

        daisy ad back in 1964. Nice touch!

        The best argument against Hillary 2020 is that she is the opponent Trump, or perhaps Pence, most wants to face. She’s already a two-time loser, three if you count her failed attempt at health care reform back in the 1990s, and George Patton was right about one thing, warmonger that he was:

        Americans love a winner and hate a loser. 

        Even Democrats.

        No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
        • Stockholmer (5368 posts)
          Donor

          60. 'Americans love a winner and hate a loser. Even Democrats.'

          Ah grasshopper… the neolibcon power structure doesn’t see her as a loser in 2016. And they brainwash the mouth-breathing SV types.

          • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
            Moderator

            65. I don't know about the former, I have my doubts there–are they really that

            stupid? Either that, or they really do want Trump. As for the latter, even on DU it seems to me the majority would prefer someone other than Hillary, though most of their preferences I find almost as revolting.

            No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
        • ThinkingANew (2117 posts)

          69. well, the DOOMSDAY clock has been dropping since before Trump

          we indeed have been under a greater threat of Nuclear Annihilation even than under Reagan for a while, and much of that came about thanks to Democratic leadership.

          "(modern) newspapers publish nothing more than “weaponized text"" “When you read a newspaper article, you are reading weaponized text that is designed to affect a person just like you." Julian Assange  
          • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
            Moderator

            83. That's true, of course. It was Obama who allowed this insanity of short range

            tactical nukes to get started again, but the fact is Hillary didn’t win, in this universe, anyway.

            No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
      • ThinkingANew (2117 posts)

        68. I agree.

        "(modern) newspapers publish nothing more than “weaponized text"" “When you read a newspaper article, you are reading weaponized text that is designed to affect a person just like you." Julian Assange  
      • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
        Moderator

        85. You have inspired me. My next View from a Better World will be on this very

        topic. Thanks!

        No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
    • ravensong (2846 posts)
      Donor

      4. Yes, and his administration is almost universally, a collection of

      anti-democracy authoritarian fascists as well.

      Pretty much everyone who is not somehow cognitively challenged recognizes by now that Trump is either a duplicitous fascist fool, or is not playing with a full deck.  Or both.

      We need to sweep the hard core fascists from power, and sweep as many the mini-me fascist Center Right Democrats from power as we possibly can, replacing them with progressives.

      But the immediate threat, the clear and present danger, is Trump/Pence, his administration, and his supporters.  They intend to turn our country into a permanent authoritarian fascist dictatorship.

      I think that one of the most important, or most important, issues that everyone should understand is that the fascists are intent upon seizing control of the electoral system.  This is clearly illustrated by the relentless efforts by the fascists in many areas of government to corrupt the electoral process, so that they can not only maintain majorities, but gain power to the point where the voting process is so corrupted that they can maintain permanent majorities that cannot be challenged by any democratic means.

      This single issue should be reason enough in itself for anyone who does not desire to live in a fascist dictatorship to to engage in a personal and collective an effort to remove Trump and all Republicans from power by the most fastest and most effective legal means possible.

      “Just out — in Arizona, SIGNATURES DON’T MATCH. Electoral corruption – Call for a new Election? We must protect our Democracy!”

      “The Florida Election should be called in favor of Rick Scott and Ron DeSantis in that large numbers of new ballots showed up out of nowhere, and many ballots are missing or forged. An honest vote count is no longer possible-ballots massively infected. Must go with Election Night!”

      “There is no question that Broward County Supervisor of Elections Brenda Snipes failed to comply with Florida law on multiple counts, undermining Floridians’ confidence in our electoral process. Supervisor Snipes should be removed from her office following the recounts.”

      “When will Bill Nelson concede in Florida? The characters running Broward and Palm Beach voting will not be able to “find” enough votes, too much spotlight on them now!”

      – Donald Trump, 2018 Midterm Elections

      The Florida recount continues. Here’s what you should know.
      https://edition.cnn.com/2018/11/14/politics/florida-recount-day-5/index.html

      "Together, together, my friends, we have begun a political revolution to transform America, and that revolution, our revolution, continues!" ~  Bernie  
      • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
        Moderator

        19. I had a longer reply to you, but CAPTCHA ate it. Something about anyone living

        in Mexico understanding the dangers of right wing corruption in their bones better than any American possibly could. I wish AMLO and the Mexican people the best, for all of us norteamericanos need him and them to succeed in the worst way.

        The Trump tweets you mention are telling. His bitch loses in Arizona–HAVE A NEW ELECTION WITH BETTER RIGGING! His asshole is ahead in Florida–NO RECOUNT! SCREW THE LAW! They show Trump has no respect for the rule of law, only the rule of Himself, which is exactly why he is so damned dangerous.

        No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
    • iggy (3462 posts)
      Donor

      5. I have to agree with you, my friend

      We must get rid of Fearless Leader, but we also must get rid of the enablers that feed these distorted ideas into his mouth. He is just a vessel, unable to form his own opinion, but to regurgitate the latest idea of others who use him for their own ends. Unless these sources of anti-democratic rhetoric are dealt with, they will find a new carnival barker to express their views.

      “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” Joseph Goebbels
      • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
        Moderator

        20. You're right, completely right, and much more succinct than I. Thank you.

        No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
        • iggy (3462 posts)
          Donor

          35. I just use less words

          Nothing wrong with your analysis. I just run out of things to say. :rofl:

          “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” Joseph Goebbels
      • joentokyo (1202 posts)

        76. Hear! Hear!

        All the Trump hate is being promoted as a distraction, so we do not look behind the curtain at all the traitors like Pelosi/Shumer et al.

        “You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” ~Ursula K. Le Guin  
        • iggy (3462 posts)
          Donor

          89. The actors behind the curtain are the real enemies of the Constitution

          Until they are permanently dealt with, this will be an ongoing problem.

          “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” Joseph Goebbels
    • BillZBubb (4076 posts)
      Donor

      6. He should be opposed and he could be defeated–if the Democrats wake up.

      But you are far too hyperbolic here. All of Trump’s personal characteristics that you list are the reason why he’s no long term threat to the nation at all. He has a very small group of hard core supporters. Most republicans will support him on issues that they think are important or if the Democrats attack him unjustly (in their minds). But we’ve seen even the republican base reacts negatively if he goes too far. For instance, he had to backpedal very quickly on the separation of immigrant families–primarily because most republicans were as outraged as Democrats and independents.

      I like the fact that he’s not treating Russia like an implacable enemy state. Her Majesty and the Democrats were strongly going that harsh, confrontational route. That’s a far greater threat to the republic than anything Trump is doing.

      He’ll serve out his term(s?) and then he’ll be an embarrassing footnote to history.

       

      DemExit! Don't give the Democrats a dime. Don't identify as a Democrat. Drop Democratic identification below 20%. Only then will they support true progressive policy. Until then, corporate money rules.
      • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
        Moderator

        22. I don't think I'm being too hyperbolic at all, though I really wish I were.

        Trump has legions of brain-dead supporters who have decided that His Word is the Unvarnished Truth. The right wing turnout in the midterms proves that. Yes, they are a minority, but a minority no smaller than those who supported Hitler in 1931. I fear if Trump gets another term, there will be no further elections that have any semblance to free and fair ones ever again.

        I’d rather not find out if my fear is justified, thank you very much.

        No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
        • joentokyo (1202 posts)

          77. No, you aren't and your analysis is not incorrect, but focusing only on

          tRump does not deal with the fact that the whole system is corrupt and needs to be cleaned out and reset.

          “You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” ~Ursula K. Le Guin  
          • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
            Moderator

            84. I agree with you about the whole system. Completely. My position is that Trump

            is a symptom that can actually kill the Republic all by itself if it is allowed do progress. Even if he is somehow removed from office before his term ends, the underlying problems will remain.

            No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
      • Silver Witch (7107 posts)
        Donor

        94. Upvote.

        All the democrats have is “look – over there!  Vote for us we aren’t that bad”!

        Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost~John Quincy Adams  
    • RufusTFirefly (4606 posts)
      Mr. Jenkins

      10. I definitely agree, OB, but with reservations similar to davidthegnome's

      Trump is indeed the greatest threat to our Republic.

      Yet he is not an anomaly; he is a culmination.

      For that matter, so was Hitler.

      As you can probably tell, I don’t subscribe to the Great Man Theory of history.

      This is a deeply systemic problem. Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, and Obama paved the way for Trump. The fact that the Democrats were unwilling or unable to permit a nominee that could effectively defeat him was yet another symptom of the country’s growing sickness.

      Yet this is all context. It is not meant to detract from your fundamental conclusion, OB.

      We share the same politics. And the same conclusion.

       

      P.S. Thanks for mentioning Adams. He’s always been on my Rogues List, primarily for the reason you stated. The dirty truth is that throughout this country’s history there has always been a powerful faction that is deeply hostile to the idea of democracy.

       

      • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
        Moderator

        26. I agree completely, and you're welcome about Adams. I thought about Jackson,

        Trump’s hero, but in spite of his multitudinous flaws Old Hickory never tried to actually outlaw his political opposition like Adams did. The Republic was also a little more stable by then, for white men, anyway.

        I am convinced Trump will try if he is given the opportunity. I don’t want to ever see him get that chance.

        No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
        • iggy (3462 posts)
          Donor

          37. I once read the Autobiography of Col David Crockett

          He was banished to Tejas by Jackson. He used to refer to Jackson as “The Govmint.”

          It was an amusing tome. He insisted that all typos be left in place. No editing for him.

          Quite recommended reading.

          “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” Joseph Goebbels
          • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
            Moderator

            42. LOL! I grew up in San Antonio and was fascinated by the Alamo from the time I

            was 5 and saw the John Wayne movie on the HUGE screen at the old Majestic Theater. And the Alamo itself, of course, which is well worth a visit. Did you know it’s haunted? There are places that are always cold, even with the A/C off on a Texas summer day, and the staff won’t go into them after dark. But I digress.

            I read Crockett’s autobiography a long time ago. Another good one is by a Mexican officer who was there, named de la Pena. Saw Crockett and several others surrender and be executed by Santa Anna over the objections of most of his generals.

            Another good one is Duel of Eagles, by Jeff Long(1991). Long tells the sordid tale as it probably really was–Bowie the slave trader, Crockett the washed out politician seeking  a better life, Travis the philandering gambler, Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna and Sam Houston the opium addicts, the tragedy of Juan Seguin, Andrew Jackson’s plot to stage a provocation that would justify the annexation of Texas, what happened to Emily Dickinson and her daughter, the Babe of the Alamo(they got no support from the Republic of Texas and turned to prostitution to survive) and more, much more.

            Billy Bob Thornton’s version of The Alamo is a much more accurate movie than the John Wayne one, BTW. If you haven’t seen it yet, I think you would enjoy it.

            No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
            • iggy (3462 posts)
              Donor

              44. I will have to persue that viewing

              I wonder if it is on DVD.

              “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” Joseph Goebbels
              • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
                Moderator

                49. It is. It's on my shelf.

                No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
          • Stockholmer (5368 posts)
            Donor

            61. M-29 Davy Crockett Weapon System tactical nuclear recoilless gun

            It was one of the smallest nuclear weapon systems ever built, with a yield between 10 and 20 tons TNT equivalent (40–80 gigajoules).

             

            • iggy (3462 posts)
              Donor

              88. I've handled a W54 Warhead

              Normally the warhead is stored in a secure container and only handled when used or maintained. I, along with some co-workers were at a maintenance depot where warheads are refurbished. One of the technicians was in the process of preparing the W54 for maintenance and it was out of the shipping container. He asked us if anyone would like to pick-up the warhead that was sitting on his bench. I volunteered and cradled it in my arms. It was warm to the touch, like it was alive. It was an interesting experience.

              “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” Joseph Goebbels
    • Tierra y Libertad (3327 posts)
      Donor

      12. Agreed., Trump is the most dangerous president we've ever been cursed with.

      Not because he’s a Republican.  Not because he’s rich.  Not because he’s male.  Not because he’s white.

      He’s dangerous because he’s a rather pathetic nobody who will do anything to prove he’s a “somebody”.  He’s too stupid to even be an ideologue true believer fighting for a “cause”.    He’s somebody who craves the spotlight so everyone can adore (or fear) him.  He’s the kind of guy who most people would find boring because he has only one topic to speak about.   His Bigly self.

       

      But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants is the liberty of appearing. Thomas Paine

       
      • Earth artist (1154 posts)
        Donor

        16. I believe it is the top richest who are the most dangerous. They own everything

        • Tierra y Libertad (3327 posts)
          Donor

          46. lI don't know how that figures. FDR was Rich, Jefferson was rich, and a host

          of others including Donnie.

          Wealthy people don’t have the corner on stupidity or sociopathy.

          whereas, Hitler was poor, Stalin was middle class, as was Nixon, Andrew Johnson, Reagan, and other monsters.

           

          But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants is the liberty of appearing. Thomas Paine

           
    • Xyzse (4538 posts)
      Donor

      13. We need credible alternatives, that is bottom line.

      I have kept with my mantra.  I do want Trump gone, but through elections, and the establishment of the Democrats really is making it hard to do that.

      From their preoccupation with gossip and innuendo to gain any sort of traction, just so that they don’t have to run on anything but the status quo, otherwise known as outcomes based on existing structures.

      Then any extra  power they get, they automatically throw away to the wind, by ensuring a bipartisan screwing of main-street.

      I will vote for Democrats and Independents.  I want Trump defanged to oblivion and people have done exactly what I wanted them to do, and what I talked about here.

      Run ballot measures to affect change, because these Democrat cowards will not take the lead.

      So it really just keeps going back to the same basic point.  We need a credible alternative(does not matter what party, Independent, Democrat or otherwise), and that’s what I thought we’ve been helping and talking about.

      • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
        Moderator

        23. You have been talking about credible alternatives, my friend. I certainly wasn't

        directing any ire at you. Trump is a symptom, not the cause, but a very dangerous symptom, kinda like the pneumonia that sometimes strikes those with weakened immune symptoms. The pneumonia must be killed off first for the patient to have a chance at survival.

        And nice point about ballot initiatives. Progressive ones win, even in Republican-dominated states. We just saw that happen in several.

        No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
        • Xyzse (4538 posts)
          Donor

          29. I know. :) We're in agreement.

          Yes, he is a damaging person who does threaten the Republic.  I think however that what triggers people on this post is that it does not actually show how you want to get rid of him.

          I tend to prefer doing it by elections and only that.  I understand the feeling from people wanting to depose him through impeachment or any other measures, but I actually find that a bigger danger to the Republic than Trump’s governance.

          The problem I have with deposing a sitting President by anything other than elections, is that it creates a greater instability that would allow something else to take over with unintended consequences.  In many instances, it is actually what brings about an actual Authoritarian leader right after.

          We have 2 years.  Democrats need to provide a credible alternative vision on leadership.  A Hillary-type is not it, and they will get bulldozed over if they run one.

          It is imperative that Democrats get their act together.

          The way of checking Trump at the moment really is up to the House.  Pelosi is not it.  She is already signaling bipartisanship, and that is just not the way to negotiate.  In this instance, it is in her best interest to stymie any new tax cut, war or anything objectionable that Trump has in the pipeline.  I just don’t see her doing it.

          I am quite happy with the ballot initiatives.  There is actually a movement where some lawmakers are thinking of creating a system of putting up federal ballot initiatives.  I fully support that, and if that system was already in place, that could actually put a better check on a President and to Congress than any other branch of government.

          • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
            Moderator

            40. Hmmm. I see two good ways of getting rid of Trump. The first is the invocation

            of the 25th Amendment, but I don’t see that happening. The other is a crushing defeat at the polls in 2020, which would be immensely satisfying. As much as I hate the SOB, I’d hate to see him assassinated and made into a martyr by the far right. That could be bad.

            No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
            • Xyzse (4538 posts)
              Donor

              53. I see those, it is just that other than a crushing electoral defeat, instability

              ensues with the other two options that I really think will be worse than his Presidency.

              In many ways, he would be that martyr to the right, and I don’t want that.

              Problem is, that is I think the end-game the establishment Dems want.

              Other than trying to embarrass him personally, they don’t have any substantive criticisms against him that sticks, because they have no credibility.

              I think, the intent here in JPR is to defeat Trump electorally, and not by virtue of investigations and scandals that only seem to make Democrats look pathetic, weak, and out of touch.

              At least that is how I see it.

    • davidthegnome (3418 posts)
      Donor

      21. I wonder…

      In addition to the problems pointed out by Ohio Barbarian – about the call for a “constitutional convention”.  One of the things (at least some of) those calling for it are after is to change the system so that the state legislature, as opposed to the public, will appoint/select those who serve in the Senate.

      Imagine what effect that would have in states with very Republican legislatures.

      Maybe a bit off topic – but there was also a vote here in my neck of the woods on whether to allow the state treasurer to be appointed instead of elected.

      I think that, in addition to everything else, we might soon be facing opposition to voting itself.  To even allowing the public to vote… something to consider.

      Imagine how much damage would be done if the likes of Trump or Clinton could really seize total power.  The idea of democracy or even republic may be rather old, but it has only been practiced on a greater scale for a short time, really.

      A few hundred years ago, a kings power was immense – go back a bit further (before the magna Carta) and it was absolute.

      Yes, in that respect, Trump, Clinton, Obama, Reagan – and many, many others are terrifying.  They are terrifying because their intent was not, and is not to serve the general public – but to control it.  When it comes down to it, they serve the donors, the money-givers and lenders and the ultra wealthy.. not us.  Not really.

      OTOH, our practice of democracy – our current republic, if you prefer, isn’t exactly a shining light anymore.  I wonder if, perhaps, the ideals and nobility of freedom and democracy have been deliberately undermined to enable the oligarchy.

      “There is no distinctly native American criminal class save Congress.” - Mark Twain
    • whatchamacallit (1345 posts)
      Donor

      25. As climate, population, poverty and income inequality… spiral out of control

      there will be more, and even worse, Trumps in the future. Because democrats don’t realize or accept that Trump is a symptom of an unaccountable system run amok for too long, they can never be the solution. They’re too inured and attached to the political food fight that passes for governance in this country to even see the real problem. The notion that this death spiral ends with Trump is naive at best.

      Also, if nearly 40% of the republic are Trump’s deplorably fascistic followers, what is the republic and who are we defending it from?

      The ring is out of my nose.
      • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
        Moderator

        27. That's not completely true. A lot of Democrats DO realize that Trump is a

        symptom of an unaccountable system that is for sale to the highest bidder. @thompaine does, if you count me because I voted in the last two Democratic primaries, I do; plenty of actual Democratic Party members do, and some elected ones do as well. Not enough, not by a long shot.

        And where do you get off on implying that I have this notion that this death spiral ends with Trump? I never said that, never implied that, never even thought that. Or maybe you were speaking in general and I’m being too touchy.

        One more thing, if the Democratic Party cannot be part of the solution, what is your alternative? The only one I can see is things getting so bad there’s revolution and civil war. Do you have another one?

        No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
        • whatchamacallit (1345 posts)
          Donor

          30. The capture and exploitation of our system was predicted

          by several of its architects. As growing existential peril forces our hands, there may be no alternative to revolt. In history it’s rare that giant disfunctional apparatuses of state fall any other way. 🙂

          The ring is out of my nose.
          • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
            Moderator

            41. I can't argue with that because I really am a historian. There have been rare

            moments when more peaceful transitions happened, however, and hope springs eternal, as they say.

            No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
            • whatchamacallit (1345 posts)
              Donor

              43. Like you, I hope for enlightened and civilized progress

              And I do understand your desire to try to use the tools at hand. 👍🏼

              The ring is out of my nose.
          • Silver Witch (7107 posts)
            Donor

            95. It was one of those founding dudes….

            …that said exactly that.  I believe something about new blood and fresh government.

             

            Oh oh wait it was many of the dudes. https://freedomlawschool.wordpress.com/2011/10/06/freedom-quotes/

            Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost~John Quincy Adams  
      • Tierra y Libertad (3327 posts)
        Donor

        47. In the meantime, we have a political government run by a spoiled child.

        Politics and all that goes with it, isn’t going away.   In order to change it to something resembling decency we have to win elections.  Does that mean “compromise”?    The “left” isn’t in power but in order do anything they have to come to power.  And, that means “compromising” with the “moderates” to win their votes.    We sure as hell aren’t going to find any votes from the right or the Trump cult.

        Of course the American Empire is heading for the door but it won’t happen soon.   It will probably come with a Democrat or Republican president.   It might be a somewhat graceful exit or bloody catastrophe.

        The alternatives are revolution(s), civil war, or bloody defeat by other powers.

        Something the boy is certainly capable of stirring.

         

        But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants is the liberty of appearing. Thomas Paine

         
    • Charles (2730 posts)
      Donor

      28. Agree that Trump is a huge threat. But I do think he's overplayed his hand

      We’ll probably see how it all works out here pretty soon IMO….

       

    • GZeusH (4410 posts)
      Donor

      31. Trump could never be dictator

      He doesn’t have a following, he has fans.   Hitler had two followings, the SA and the SS; Mao had the Red Guards following him, each of whom had a little red book.  Trump has dim bulbs in MAGA hats that applaud each time he thinks up a new insult.  They are not an organized movement, and are likely to fight each other if there is no one around weak enough for them to pick on.  The pipe dudder is typical of this lot.  His fans don’t have what it takes to enforce his dictates across the land like followers would.

      You couldn’t be more wrong about the FBI and CIA, they DO run the country in that they do whatever they want independent of what Congress and the Executive branch might tell them.  It’s more like they submit their budget to Congress, tell the President what they need, and some time later bills are passed, signed, and the money shows up.  They don’t have to remove Trump or Clinton or anyone else; they just need to wait until the money shows up for their next nefarious project.  Since the time of J. Edgar Hoover’s blackmail files and Allen Dulles’s back channel maneuvering, no one has told them no.  The reason Trump is still in the White House is same reason that people install lightning rods.

      In conclusion, Trump is a stupid man with stupid fan base.  He’ll embarrass the country for two more years (six if the DNC has any say in the matter), and then he will be replaced by someone else that the DeepState/Powers that Be/Movers&Shakers/Top 1% can manipulate.

      в NewYorkTimese нет известии, и в WaPo нет правды.
      • Bernin4U (970 posts)
        Donor

        33. 100% there with you. But how to stop the DNC?

        An OP I’ve been intending for weeks, but it’s only yesterday that I’m able to start posting again.

        • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
          Moderator

          38. Swamp 'em at the polls. I look forward to your OP. Glad you can post again.

          No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
      • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
        Moderator

        34. Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, then. Mostly. It is true that

        the MAGA folks are only organized around one individual, The Donald, but they are a real threat as long as he is around, at least in my strongly held opinion. As for the FBI and CIA, no, they don’t run the country, and they never have. They have been told no, successfully, many times, by presidents and politicians of both parties. If anything, the myth that they do run the country is a convenient false flag run up by the corporate interests that really do run it.

        If the FBI and CIA are the bugaboos, nobody pays attention to Wall Street or Jeff Bezos. Meanwhile, people like Oliver Stone get rich off of movies. IMHO, of course, oh retired king of the Greek gods. No offense meant. JPR would be diminished without your Olympian observations, and I do mean that. Really.

        :yourock:

        No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
        • GZeusH (4410 posts)
          Donor

          39. No, we really DO agree.

          The FBI and the CIA and the NSA are doing their nefarious projects at the behest of Wall Street and Bezos.  I’m still trying to think of an instance where they were told no, and they didn’t find an expedient workaround for that denial.  The CIA was told no more land invasions of Cuba, but almost anything else in the name of anti-Communism is fair game, including blowing up airplane flights.

          в NewYorkTimese нет известии, и в WaPo нет правды.
      • fluff (635 posts)

        126. You forget Erik Prince.

        His fully equipped mercenary army of mostly former US military special forces numbering in the 100s of thousands and currently employed by the US government to handle most of our fighting overseas has the right as American citizens to return to the United States any time they choose.  That entire military could head to Washington, and the Feds could not lift a finger to stop them until they acted.

        While Prince, a follower of Trump, no longer owns that company, it is a good bet the new owners are of a like mind.  Trump does not have to raise an army loyal to him.  The United States government already spent the last 17 years building it for him.

        Remember, remember the 6th of November 2018.
    • Bernin4U (970 posts)
      Donor

      32. Meh.

      Trump is terrible? Of course. But the greatest threat to the republic?

      Admittedly I didn’t even read most of your OP. So much posturing. Aren’t we well past that (the need to frame our position), so that our logical arguments can stand on their own?

      For your actual argument, all I see is that he’d love to be King. So? What else is new?

      And how about some context?

      Reagan got to have private wars and convinced people that wealth makes you one of the good guys (because anyone can do it!). Dubya brought us 9/11 and the subsequent ongoing wars, all powered by his VP’s private club.

      And where were the people? Mostly strongly behind them, due to a combination of machismo and greed (cheap gas).

      Where are the people now? Thankfully, not many are that strongly for him. And not many are that strongly against him. If anything, people are more about being against the Repubs for being such assholes. Or the Dems for being such assholes.

      What most people want now is simply leadership not to be assholes. Their tired of Trump’s belligerence, but they’re also tired of the Dem’s (lack of constructive?) response to it. Neither moves us forward. Neither brings us closer together as a people.

      Why does it matter? You said yourself, Trump only cares about himself. But in reality, an ego like his needs to be stroked. He needs to be popular, and not just among his limited base. But the people (thankfully!) are tired of war (which is why we’re not in Syria).

      Of course he will fill his cabinet with business friends, who will tend to be very destructive. Again, nothing new there. But what will he do to make himself popular? Your guess is good as mine. But it’s not going to be anything too stupid. The people are tired of it.

      Trump is a huge pos, no doubt. But he’s simply not in the position to be worse than Ronnie or Dubya.

      • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
        Moderator

        36. It is Trump's and the Republicans' blatant attempts to suppress democracy that

        is truly worrying, and I think you are underestimating the lengths that Trump will go if he is given the chance. I hope I never have the chance to say “I told you so,” and I support Bernie, so we’re basically good as far as I am concerned. I can take a few “Mehs.”

        No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
        • Bernin4U (970 posts)
          Donor

          55. Sorry, “meh” sounds rude.

          But is Trump fighting Mueller attempting to surpress democracy? Even if Mueller weren’t a filthy pig, what are the charges? You don’t get to have an investigation because you don’t like someone. And Strozk found nothing! What are the charges?

          In America, we don’t do, “Drop your pants, and if you’re clean, you’ve got nothing to worry about.” People being ok with our justice system being so weasily, because someone is perceived as “good” or “bad”, is far scarier to me.

          • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
            Moderator

            66. I don't think Trump is smart enough to consider whether or not his fighting

            Mueller is suppressing democracy. I do think he is fighting Mueller in order to stop the latter from producing evidence of his many past, and maybe present, criminal activities. Trump’s well-known as a white collar criminal, just like over half of Obama’s cabinet, who has gotten off with no prison time or even criminal charges thus far only because he is rich.

            No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
            • Bernin4U (970 posts)
              Donor

              72. What is the charge!!??!

              Ham sandwiches and all that, so what is the charge?

              I have yet to hear anything legit. All the Papadapolous stuff was horseshit.

              A progressive ALWAYS puts integrity first. Never “ends justifies the means.”

              • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
                Moderator

                86. I don't know if there will be any charges or not. And no, progressives do not

                ALWAYS put integrity first. Some of us can be as ruthless as any Republican ever born. I might, if I had the power, and I wouldn’t bat an eye.

                But I’m just a barbarian, you see.

                No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
                • Silver Witch (7107 posts)
                  Donor

                  97. This is the real problem.

                  You are just mad because someone else has the power.

                  I saw this under Obama.  No peace marches because HE IS A DEM.

                  The truth is moral and ethical people say wrong is wrong no matter WHO is doing it.

                  This is the truly frightening part of VOTE BLUE NO MATTER WHO.

                  Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost~John Quincy Adams  
              • Silver Witch (7107 posts)
                Donor

                96. +1000

                Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost~John Quincy Adams  
      • MistaP (11126 posts)
        Donor

        52. Nixon committed treason and murdered 21,000 soldiers to become president

        and wiretapped his opponents (or just had cops or Farrakhan murder them); Reagan ran blow and planned to have dissidents sent to camps; Bush oversaw an attack that matched his puppetmasters’ “New Pearl Harbor” that they needed to topple the whole Mideast starting by a campaign to get us into Iraq (and legally suspended the Constitution at Presidential pleasure)

        meanwhile Trump certainly backs MbS and threatens Iran because of his relatives (against Moscow’s pleading), but tries to pull out of Syria, Korea, and Yemen and has mocked Riyadh

        distressingly there’s a perfect match for him who almost got elected 1952 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Taft–down to the opposing government spending while using housing money for corruption

        the Clinton campaign created Trump with the Pied Piper strategy (Third Way = Bell Curve)
        • Bernin4U (970 posts)
          Donor

          54. Just for ex. (No doubt MistaP could pwn my ass all day here.)

          Main thing is that Trump will do insidious shit all day. But he doesn’t have the will do to anything too stupid. Not with so much of the media against him (lucky for us).

          He’s like the spoiled brat who will show off (and/or do really mean things) to his baby sister. Ultimately it’s all about seeking the attention and approval of his parents.

          • MistaP (11126 posts)
            Donor

            56. if I were a smart dictator I'd let the opposition implode under its own

            mass: no matter what Comey was doing I would’ve set up team after team of loyal lawyers to chase the DNC based on what we already know they did embezzle, rig the election against their best candidate, start an obvious hoax about some Russians and then fled into the night, and used the WH to send spies into his campaign; at the end of the overt and covert investigations into 2016’s irregularities he’d be able to say “my opponents let a Russian oligarch interfering in the election fool them into an elaborate hoax that produced nothing, ginned up a McCarthyite attack on independent truth-tellers, and had the goal of undermining my plan to pull out of Syria and cease funding to terrorists” (and heavens only knows what we don’t know about that he might uncover)

            2017 Clinton was loathed like nobody else, and double so if he’d repeatedly hammered home the Pied Piper memo–she wouldn’t have any defenders left or right

            how’d the DP look after all that was proven in black and white (as opposed to JPR cobbling it together from Consortium News)

            dictators project images of “foul opponents,” “firm hand on the tiller,” not balky or whiffling

            the Clinton campaign created Trump with the Pied Piper strategy (Third Way = Bell Curve)
            • Bernin4U (970 posts)
              Donor

              57. You’d think either “side” could be so easily destroyed.

              My con friends constantly send me articles and comments on the shenanigans of those prosecuting Russiagate. These were hardly strong trump supporters, but the cheezy oppo sure makes them moreso.

              First instinct is to point out just how the poop smells on the R side, but a little discipline kicks in and instead try to remind them how LO2E is what got us here, and changing directions can never happen until you hop off.

    • Utopian Leftist (774 posts)
      Donor

      45. Well-written. I'll recommend with one caveat:

      I know your mind cannot be changed, but I would like you to contemplate how horrible the neoliberals really are.

      I’m not saying they’re worse than the D-Rump, whom I would argue is an Anti-Christ. But I hope you realize how deep the damage goes. Neolibs don’t just water down Republican policies and then steal them: they FOOL MILLIONS of people into thinking crazy things, such as Clinton’s “we’ll NEVER have Medicare for All in this country” or Pelosi’s “pay as you go.”

      On a deeper level, even worse than their policy positions, they fool millions more into thinking that liberal policies (which have actually never been tried in this country) are responsible for the mess we’re in. Worst of all, they fool yet millions more into believing that neither “side” in this country will ever do us any good or that neither side is worth voting for.

      Neoliberals have for the past 40 years, deliberately misled this empire, while growing constantly closer to the Wall Street troughs they graze from. They have not only blurred the lines between right and wrong, they have made themselves (and therefore all liberalism, in the minds of the average Murikkkan voter), irrelevant.

      The beatdown Hillary was handed had nothing to do with Bernie Bros, Russia, a VRWC, Comey, the FBI, the media, sexism, racism or any other ism you can think of. It was a referendum on neoliberalism. It is your legacy, Obama. It’s Clinton fatigue born of endless scandals. It’s war and prison for profit. It’s criminality that dresses itself up like saintliness and looks down its nose at its victims. ~ farleftlib
      • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
        Moderator

        50. Thank you, and I agree with you on how horrible the neoliberals really are. As

        that horrible old imperialist Winston Churchill might have said, when it comes to Wall Street, they are sheep in sheeps’ clothing. I despise them in some ways more than I do Trump. I just see him as a greater threat than they are at this time, that’s all.

        No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
    • MistaP (11126 posts)
      Donor

      48. we've heard this for over two years now, and on both 9-11-17 and -18

      the likes of which has not been seen since Hitler, Stalin and Mao

      in Germany 1935 the states were dissolved, parties banned, books burned, universities closed, and opponents thrown into Dachau; USSR 1930 the kangaroo courts were on their way and state terrorism was in full swing;  Shanghai 1951 people were being shamed into jumping out of the skyscrapers they’d once owned; dictators never dawdle

      they at least believe that a Republic should exist. Trump doesn’t

      neither of them care for democratic niceties if it doesn’t back them-openly wanting to murder Assange for telling the truth? a widespread effort to buy out the media and censor what they can’t? brazenly stealing an election? giving us Trump? that’s the Dems

      and if you don’t see that by now there’s nothing more I can say to convince you

      that’s a dodge

      divided themselves, incapable of directly taking over the government by themselves. If they were the all-powerful bugaboos they are portrayed to be

      that sounds like the WH as much as the spooks; let’s rewrite the next para

      The only logical answers to that question are that the [Trump Administration is] either not as powerful as they are often portrayed, not as competent, or not that much of a threat to our democracy in the first place. Take your pick, but no matter which one you choose, they are still less of a threat […] The very fact that [Langley and the Hoover Building weren’t encircled by Marshals January 20, 2017] proves it.

      Trump is a far greater danger to the Republic than the entire FBI

      well, what are the specific ways Trump’d be a threat to democracy? wiretapping? secret lists of dissidents to send to camps for when they start a war? keeping blackmail files on elected officials instead of just criminals? flat-out murder of opponents? these are all things the FBI has done

      Trump’s style and personality are a present threat to the government’s ability to govern, but he’ll go quietly if defeated 2021 or termed out 2025: the alphabet agencies and the free space they’ve made for themselves to do shit like Iran-Contra or Cyclone or stovepiping or Timber Sycamore are a FUTURE threat, they’re permanent

      and all the ad homs:

      then you need to take your blinders off

      so blinded

      I think you’re letting yourself be blinded by your own emotions and prejudices

      If you don’t see that by now, I really don’t know what to say to you, other than please wake the fuck up before it’s too late

      the Clinton campaign created Trump with the Pied Piper strategy (Third Way = Bell Curve)
      • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
        Moderator

        51. Project much?

        No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
      • Major Hogwash (5000 posts)
        Donor

        62. The real problem is, not even the Republicans can reel him in.

        He’s uncontrollable. He acts above the law. He’s ineffective at helping the American people, except for rich people who own golf courses. At the same time, he’s busy destroying decades of good will with our foreign allies. He’s the biggest liar to ever sit in the WH. He’s out of hand, spending more time spewing on Twitter than in policy meetings to run the country.

        The very fact that he is disengaged from reality is the worst danger he poses to the people of this country. He doesn’t understand the inner workings of the departments of the federal government. He doesn’t even try to understand nature or the concept of climate change.

        He has scapegoated immigrants the same way Hitler scapegoated the Jews, blaming them for all the ills of the nation. He wants a military parade, something we have never done as a nation. He threatens to shut down the federal governement every time he demands money for his wall . . the wall he said Mexico would pay for. Now he wants $25 Billion dollars from US taxpayers to pay for his wall . . or else he’ll shut down the federal government.
        Enough is enough.

        I don’t think everyone will ever agree on everything posted at JPR.
        But someone giving their opinion saying that Trump is a greater threat to our country than any President ever before seems to me to be rather obvious.
        Especially in light of the fact of how many people have already been indicted as a result of a brief investigation in to his administration.

        Trump moya marionetka ~ Putin  
      • djean111 (8092 posts)
        Donor

        78. This is the start of the Official Vote for the Blue No Matter Who 2020 campaign.

        You are correct.

        • *Obligatory disclaimer - when I say "Democratic Party" I mean the DNC - the Clintons and the un-elected people and the consultants and the lobbyists and the corporations who actually run things.  The people who work and vote and are registered as "D" are no more the actual party than Trekkies are Star Trek.   Extra credit - the Democratic Party gets to actually fuck up your life. When you vote for it.
        You think the only reason that people won't vote for a warmongering Third Way fracking-enabling cluster bomb throwing H-1B increasing lying pandering corporate and Wall Street shill who says she has no problem putting abortion rights on the table is because we are mad about Bernie?  Um, nope.
      • Silver Witch (7107 posts)
        Donor

        93. Ahh could i write this well!

        Thank you for putting so clearly what i struggle to put into words.

        Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost~John Quincy Adams  
      • Salemcourt (1462 posts)
        Donor

        128. Thanks for this

    • ThomPaine (6947 posts)
      Moderator

      58. I strongly recommend this not because I agree but because we need this

      discussion.    I believe that there is a cabal that runs this country.  It only makes sense. Presidents come and go but the cabal is constant.   Trump may do some things that the cabal doesn’t like but how bad can he get.  If he goes too far, it’s easy enough to neutralize him.   Trump is used by the cabal.  He pushes the boundaries and gets some push back but is making progress toward total authoritarianship and he is the bad guy.  But the cabal can neutralize him whenever they feel it’s necessary.  How happy would America be if Kamala Harris defeated Trump in 2020?  And the cabal really doesn’t lose anything.  Trump would have done the damage, pushed us farther toward total authoritarianship and Kamala wouldn’t bring us back ala. Obama.

      Now I believe that we should fight Trump and fight the Neo-Libs, not because I think we will win the overall war, but because I am going down fighting.  Sorry if that sounds like so much bravado but all my life I’ve been fighting bullies and fuckifI’m going quit now.  I understand that some have given up and say that I am tilting at wind mills.  Well if they are at peace, good for them.

      And yes the cabal has control of the FBI/CIA/NSA and a dozen other initials we don’t even know about.

      Would Hillary been as bad as Trumpski?  Apples and oranges.

       

      • davidthegnome (3418 posts)
        Donor

        73. I'm with you on fighting bullies.

        I think though, that part of the problem is that expectations aren’t great – especially for those of us who have either studied history or been in the political game for any length of time.  When mired in the deep mucky shit of the greater issues, we often lose sight of simpler things.

        Just as an example of how quickly things can change… look to the world war II era and the Marshall plan.  Look to how Martin Luther King inspired change.  How Gandhi banished an empire while severely opposing violence.  Consider the history of Mandela.

        Or, more recently and applicable, the change wrought by an old man with crazy white hair.  Bernie has definitely made great changes, particularly in regards to shifting perspectives.

        My point is that, in our admiration for these folks it is often forgotten that not a single one if them could have hoped to accomplish what they did alone.  Others followed their examples, shared their principles and passion.  Gandhi fought and defeated what was once the world’s strongest empire – without using any conventional weapons, without fighting a war.  Centuries before that, a bunch of rag-tag militias men – severely outclassed in military power – defeated that same empire in a more conventional war.

        Had they truly believed defeat inevitable, they wouldn’t have bothered.  Had they not believed in themselves, they could never have inspired others.

        We CAN win this.  Not only can we, but I believe it is all but inevitable that we will.  In time – the will of the people and the common good will defeat any number of great evils.  We often speak of progress – such is only possible when we believe in it – and I do.

        In spite of being mired in the mucky shit often enough throughout my life, beaten down by bullies and beaurocrats, I always come back to the center.

        We will lead the way forward through faith in ourselves and each other.  We will defeat the Trumps, Clintons, cabals and evil empires of both today and tomorrow.

        Sure, they’re scary and powerful – so was ancient Egypt, or Rome, the British Empire, Nazi Germany, Stalin, Mao.  All now are long gone.  We have new problems – but we will solve those, too.

        You can’t keep good people down forever – and, my friend – we still outnumber the assholes.

        “There is no distinctly native American criminal class save Congress.” - Mark Twain
        • ThomPaine (6947 posts)
          Moderator

          109. What a great post. Inspirational. I think I needed that. Thanks for posting.

      • Silver Witch (7107 posts)
        Donor

        92. I will go down right beside you Thom!

        I All my life i have fought the good fignt.  I will not stop now out of fear or bullying.

        Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost~John Quincy Adams  
        • ThomPaine (6947 posts)
          Moderator

          110. Thanks

          :hi:

    • leveymg (5214 posts)

      79. Trump can do nothing without enablers in both parties.

      • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
        Moderator

        82. That is a true statement, yes.

        No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
      • ThomPaine (6947 posts)
        Moderator

        111. I agree.

    • djean111 (8092 posts)
      Donor

      80. Ah! The official "Vote for the Blue No Matter Who 2020!" campaign has started!

      Wondered how long after the 2018 elections it would take.  Just a few days!  Are there t-shirts and hats and bumper stickers available?  Be cheaper to just print ’em up now, no name needed!

      Oh, and no.  No matter how denigrating and insulting this gets.  And looks like where this is headed.  Nope.  If the Dem candidate is a DINO – and Hillary is not “old news”, she still owns the DNC and has lots of greasy shiny corporate warmongering acolytes waiting in the pens – I will not vote for a DINO.

      • *Obligatory disclaimer - when I say "Democratic Party" I mean the DNC - the Clintons and the un-elected people and the consultants and the lobbyists and the corporations who actually run things.  The people who work and vote and are registered as "D" are no more the actual party than Trekkies are Star Trek.   Extra credit - the Democratic Party gets to actually fuck up your life. When you vote for it.
      You think the only reason that people won't vote for a warmongering Third Way fracking-enabling cluster bomb throwing H-1B increasing lying pandering corporate and Wall Street shill who says she has no problem putting abortion rights on the table is because we are mad about Bernie?  Um, nope.
      • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
        Moderator

        81. And you clearly either did not read the whole post, or are deliberately putting

        words in my mouth. In fact, I specifically stated that I was not advocating Vote Blue No Matter Who. If your comment actually caused me damages, I could sue you for libel, but it didn’t, so you don’t have to worry about that.

        Hillary and the Vichy Dems may indeed have “lots of greasy shiny corporate warmongering acolytes waiting in the pens,” as you say, but, ironically, you could just as easily be describing Donald Trump’s National Security Adviser, who is actually on the White House staff right now.

        Edit to omit portion of reply that was too personal. 11/15/18 2:46pm EST.

        No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
        • djean111 (8092 posts)
          Donor

          87. Bwah! Talk about being a boor!

          Anyway, saying you do not advocate Vote for the Blue No Matter who – and immediately following that with this –

          If you don’t see that by now, I really don’t know what to say to you, other than please wake the fuck up before it’s too late. If you disagree, that is your right, but if you are here to argue that Donald Trump is the Lesser Evil, or that we should not support those who oppose him when they oppose him because they are not pure enough for you or because you disagree with them on other issues, issues on which we probably disagree with them as well, then don’t get upset when you get push back on a progressive forum, and remember that the rule against vote-shaming works both ways.

          How is that NOT “vote for the blue no matter who”?    Extra points for using “purity”!

          How you feel about my comments is not relevant or meaningful to anyone but yourself.

          • *Obligatory disclaimer - when I say "Democratic Party" I mean the DNC - the Clintons and the un-elected people and the consultants and the lobbyists and the corporations who actually run things.  The people who work and vote and are registered as "D" are no more the actual party than Trekkies are Star Trek.   Extra credit - the Democratic Party gets to actually fuck up your life. When you vote for it.
          You think the only reason that people won't vote for a warmongering Third Way fracking-enabling cluster bomb throwing H-1B increasing lying pandering corporate and Wall Street shill who says she has no problem putting abortion rights on the table is because we are mad about Bernie?  Um, nope.
          • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
            Moderator

            100. Simple logic says that I did not say Vote Blue No Matter Who, because I did not

            say that. In fact, I said the opposite. Those false words are yours, not mine. I am suggesting that you have either no sense of nuance by accusing me of that, not to mention a possible lack of understanding of plain American English.

            If you automatically think “Vichy Democrat bad, therefore Trump good or at least Lesser Evil,” I find that dualistic, like Zoroastrianism or Manicheanism, illogical, and irrelevant to the actual political situation at hand.

            No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
    • Silver Witch (7107 posts)
      Donor

      91. Is this a threat?

      As a moderator of this board are you telling us that NO MATTER WHO the Democratic candidate is we as JPR members we must support that candidate and not speak negatively of them?

      Ahhh shades of Democratic Underground.

      This screed of “the country is in danger” and he will be a dictator is old and tired . It was used for Bush and fuck it was used by the republicans against Obama.

      Let the PEOPLE speak and vote as they will using their good conscious.   Try to silence us.    Do try!

      Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost~John Quincy Adams  
      • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
        Moderator

        99. To answer your question, absolutely not. I am not trying to "silence" anyone,

        though I see you have already jumped to just one step short of crying “Censorship!” or “Freedom of speech!” in typical fashion. You are free to support and vote for whomever you wish, or to abstain from voting, for that matter. That is your right.

        Just as it is my right to state that I think that Donald Trump and many of his supporters would like to do away with the very concept of free and fair elections, and why. Just as it is my right to state that I think anyone who thinks that Trump, in his current position, deserves to avoid being held accountable to the United States Constitution and to the oath he took to uphold it.

        Just as it is my right to state that I think Donald Trump is clinically insane, is unfit for office, and should be removed; preferably by constitutional means. Just as it is my right to state that I think Donald Trump is a native-born aristocrat due to his inherited wealth and privilege, and I object the the existence of aristocrats in this country. I am directly descended from an artilleryman in the Continental Army, and that is a heritage I am proud to uphold.

        Just as it is my right to state that I think anyone who supports this demented aristocrat, who has enriched only himself and those like him,  over those who would oppose him constitutionally does not fit any definition of the word “progressive” that I know.

        No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
        • Silver Witch (7107 posts)
          Donor

          107. Exercise your right as you see fight….

          Or do as you will – implying that those who are “blind” or who are blind simply because they don’t agree with you is another thing altogether.

          I myself am a mut and have not heritage of which to be proud or ashamed of – as if that means anything to who we are today.

          Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost~John Quincy Adams  
    • Deadpool (17658 posts)
      Computer Janitor

      101. On the Daily Radical!

    • ronRonnie (1030 posts)
      Donor

      103. As bad as Trump is…

      Even if he sprouted horns tomorrow:  Some of us will NOT vote blue no matter who.

       

      Nice try though.

      • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
        Moderator

        113. I never suggested that, and neither will I.

        No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
    • sadoldgirl (3035 posts)
      Donor

      106. Well friend, as you by now should expect I disagree with your interpretation.

      I won’t go back to Ike, but start with Reagan. While he was changing the

      domestic policy forever, his VP, the former head of the CIA, was running

      foreign policy. Hence for the first time after a long time we interfered in

      the ME. I am not only talking about the Iran/Contra affair, but our supply

      of weapons to Hussein to fight Iran, and then, when it was convenient, to

      fight the same guy, while presenting the country with lies.( Do babies thrown out

      of incubators, ring a bell?). Our wars since the 1890ties have been wars of colonialism.

      Wars are bloody expensive in many ways, and will be the downfall of the US in the

      end. Clinton, after the CIA had stirred up enough trouble in Yugoslavia, bombed it,

      and made sure some of our missiles would be stationed there against Russia.He also

      sold out what used to be a party for the people. And then came our great “gray

      eminence” Cheney (former head of DoD). 9/11 “happened”, illegal wars against

      Afghanistan and Iraq  as an “acceptable”consequence took/are taking place, the

      surveillance state was formed with the unconstitutional Patriot Act, torture became

      “legal”. At the same time W made sure that there was a tax relief for “the people”.

      Obama,once his turn came, expanded the power of the executive, started 3 more wars,

      droned Americans, permitted an unbelievable amount of more drilling, started a project

      for new strategical, smaller and more effective nuclear weapons, and in the end supported

      “Russia,Russia – gate. Oh, and let’s not forget the help he gave to get the Neonazis in power

      in the Ukraine. He did this and more with a great con eloquence.

      Trump, outside of his terrible character, up to now has only bombed Syria twice, and that

      after he warned the Russians of it. He is a powerless bully, but has achieved two things

      (with or without intentions): North and South Korea are working more together, just as

      it should be. There are signs in Europe that it might be time  to loosen the umbilical

      cord tying it totally to US pleasure.

      What Trump has done domestically is just what the corporate Uniparty wants. Congress

      could stop him at any time, but is more interested in pretending that there are two parties.

      In other words Trump is just the next step, which had to be expected. What I like about

      him is that he makes obvious what both parties tried to hide: No interest in averting Climate

      Change, no interest to keep to international law, agreements or even treaties; total subservience

      to the military and Wall Street. The problem is that people don’t want to see this.

       

      • MistaP (11126 posts)
        Donor

        119. heck, he wanted OUT of Syria, until those "chemical strikes" just happened

        to happen March ’17 and ’18 (one after each pullout announcement, in fact); Russiagate was used to dissuade him, and its proponents have blood on their hands

        he hasn’t started any new wars and if he gets to 2020 he’ll be the first since Carter (“evil, inverse Jimmy Carter” seems a good lens for him, in fact)

        the Clinton campaign created Trump with the Pied Piper strategy (Third Way = Bell Curve)
    • vanflower (1080 posts)

      108. This is an interesting cautionary tale into the effects of

      trump derangement syndrome, similar to the right’s obama derangement syndrome – I guess each side has its…

      I saw an interesting an humorous YT video about TDS by someone I had not heard of before – the prince of queens.

      Trump is a lot of things but to say “he will make himself a totalitarian dictator of a powerful nation, the likes of which has not been seen since Hitler, Stalin and Mao. He really is potentially that bad, and if you can’t see that, then you need to take your blinders off” is so hyperbolic and unhinged that it says more about the writer’s mental state than trump.  If you think I am wrong please state how trump will succeed in the systematic killing 10s of millions of people.

      It’s also interesting that the writer calls himself a socialist but then calls trump worse than two of the most notorious socialists leaders, such a lack of self awareness is dangerous indeed.

      • djean111 (8092 posts)
        Donor

        112. Agree whole-heartedly. Thank you.

        I pretty much think this is in service to electing a predetermined DINO, and/or in service to massive fundraising.  We shall see.  I am not voting for a DINO.

        • *Obligatory disclaimer - when I say "Democratic Party" I mean the DNC - the Clintons and the un-elected people and the consultants and the lobbyists and the corporations who actually run things.  The people who work and vote and are registered as "D" are no more the actual party than Trekkies are Star Trek.   Extra credit - the Democratic Party gets to actually fuck up your life. When you vote for it.
        You think the only reason that people won't vote for a warmongering Third Way fracking-enabling cluster bomb throwing H-1B increasing lying pandering corporate and Wall Street shill who says she has no problem putting abortion rights on the table is because we are mad about Bernie?  Um, nope.
        • vanflower (1080 posts)

          114. Thanks. I see your point. Electing DINOs only perpetuates the status qou

          Interestingly, the OP rails against the Vichy democrats in one post then says we must vote d no matter what in the next – whip saw.

          I just see all this trump is hitler crap just like I see the birther crap from wacky conservatives (and trump btw) – it is over the top and just makes the left look foolish.

          I’m no trump fan but I have to admit he has not started any new wars (yet I suppose) he does not seem to bent on world domination and I suspect he kinda regrets winning the R nomination (though I’m sure he relishes beating clinton and sticking it to obama who said it would never happen).

      • Salemcourt (1462 posts)
        Donor

        129. Trump derangement syndrome

        or a blatant attempt to get people to vote for DINOs

    • peacecorps (6467 posts)
      Donor

      115. "The current president is pushing closer to fascism than even the man behind

      Watergate.”

      As president, Nixon tried to bend the constitutional and political systems to his will. He interfered in the Democratic Party’s process for picking his future opponent. And he challenged the separation of powers — setting off the constitutional crisis that Watergate was. But as far as Nixon moved toward fascism, Mr. Trump has been going further.

      Each president tried to stir up public impatience with his perceived persecution and thus pressure investigators to hurry up, but Mr. Trump makes Nixon look like a pussycat.

      Nixon officials were prone to saying things like, “Enough wallowing in Watergate,” while, for example, in early August, Mr. Trump tweeted, “This is a terrible situation and Attorney General Jeff Sessions should stop this Rigged Witch Hunt right now.” Mr. Trump has done much more than Nixon did in trying to damage public trust in whatever their prosecutors might come up with.

      Mr. Trump’s allies among Republican leaders of House investigatory committees have sought to undermine the jobs of not just the special counsel but also key figures in the Justice Department and the F.B.I. Such goings-on didn’t happen in Watergate.

      https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/15/opinion/trump-worse-nixon.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

      • Bernin4U (970 posts)
        Donor

        120. Funny that illegal and immoral wars never seem at issue

        in the press. But try to stand up to the shenanigans of our “intelligence”?!

      • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
        Moderator

        122. It's a power play; one of at least several, I'm sure.

        No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
    • Coldmountaintrail (9789 posts)
      Donor

      118. on the tv right now; the D/cia media is making the case to connect

      wikileaks/assange to trump’s perfidy

      out here in the working world, we don’t have a clue who’s playing for what team, imho

      ‘a darkening plain where ignorant armies clash by night’

      • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
        Moderator

        121. Well, that's just pure bullshit, and I'm sure we're not alone here in saying

        that.

        No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
        • Coldmountaintrail (9789 posts)
          Donor

          123. which part is bullshit?

          • Ohio Barbarian (13444 posts)
            Moderator

            124. Connecting Assange to Trump's perfidy.

            No man ought to stay poor so another man can get rich. --Newton Knight
    • BlueAK (1922 posts)
      Donor

      125. Thank you!

      https://northernvisions.smugmug.com/
    • RealityCheck (1987 posts)

      127. He must be opposed. He must be defeated

      He must be fitted with chrome cuffs!! If not, he and his family of thieves will continue to bilk many Americans while still protected by our Secret Service and ‘free to him’ medical care.  If he ever needs a mechanical part to keep him alive as one of our past presidents much like what keeps Cheney alive, he’ll screw us to death.