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Home Main Forums General Discussion Even if true, Lanny Davis' accusations don't amount to a crime

  • leveymg (5148 posts)

    Even if true, Lanny Davis' accusations don't amount to a crime

    They don’t even add up to proof of the non-crime of “collusion.”

    On July 26, CNN dropped its “bombshell” story that Michael Cohen was going to testify to Robert Mueller that he was present when Donald Trump was told his son would meet with various Russians.   The Washington Post and the NY Post claimed they had “confirmed” the CNN account.  Now, both papers have retracted their confirmation and admitted that the anonymous source was Cohen’s own attorney, former Clinton lawyer, Lanny Davis.  https://theintercept.com/2018/08/28/cnn-credibly-accused-of-lying-to-its-audience-about-a-key-claim-in-its-blockbuster-cohen-story-refuses-to-comment/

    All these corporate media have left out a much bigger side of the story from their coverage.   Mueller can’t use what Michael Cohen has to say to indict Trump, even if it were true, for two reasons:

    First, what Davis describes — a meeting between Russians and Don Jr. — is not, in itself, a crime.  Without anything further, there is nothing about the Trump Tower meeting to form a criminal indictment.

    Second, and specifically, evidence already obtained does not show the materials handed over by the Lady Lawyer were represented to have been illegally obtained.  This point is important, but has been obscured so many times in the media that much of the public now believes that the Russians promised or actually gave Trump Hillary’s emails or some other illegal “dirt.”  That may actually be the point.  See, e.g.,  https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/19/politics/rudy-giuliani-trump-tower-meeting-clinton-dirt/index.html

    In fact, a copy of stolen emails — or anything else stolen or illegally obtained — wasn’t even promised.   On another level, the documentary record related to the Trump Tower meeting simply doesn’t contain proof of “collusion,” a much murkier term, or even sustain a finding that there is irrefutable evidence of intent to collude.

    Legally, any charge of Conspiracy comes down to whether the “dirt” — as it has been called after the fact in the press — offered was acquired illegally, and evidence held by the Senate Judiciary Committee shows that it wasn’t.  All that CNN, the Washington Post need do is go back and read the exhibits that are posted on-line, here, as we review them below:  https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/press/releases/materials-from-inquiry-into-circumstances-surrounding-trump-tower-meeting?peek=JnLNybHsog26L1cFm8AR63234MDsncYLzYhn7Ze9%2FdDXzs%2B6

    There can be no Conspiracy charge for either Trump, Jr. or Sr., unless there is some other evidence that both took concrete acts in furtherance of an actual crime, or at least they intended to.  Michael Cohen’s claims, even if corroborated, don’t come close to proving that.  Sorry, nice try Lanny and CNN.

    The Elements of a Federal Conspiracy Charge that Must be Proved

    It really comes down to proving that Don Junior thought the materials dangled before him as bait to obtain the Trump Tower meeting with the Russian Lady Lawyer on June 9, 2016 were illegally obtained.   The Donald, Sr. would also have to intend to further a criminal act, and know that it was a crime, for a federal Conspiracy charge to stick to him, and that would have to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. There have to be “two or more guilty minds” in a criminal conspiracy.   See, https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/conspiracy.html

    It is not one bit clear that a criminal act took place.   The documents offered by Rob Goldstone to Don Jr. were not described as the fruits of an actual crime, and it is not clear the Trumps even thought they were.   As in any “sting” operation, the bait didn’t have to be real contraband (in this case, purloined Hillary or DNC emails), but the prosecution has to prove that the defendant thought they were.

    Furthermore, there are a lot of steps in proving a federal Conspiracy charge, and they don’t all seem to be there in this case.

    The Missing Evidence

    Here’s what we know at this point.

    June 9, 2016 —  Veselnitskaya meets with Glenn Simpson, owner of Fusion GPS,  just before and then has dinner with her after her Trump Tower meeting with Donald Trump, Jr., Paul Manafort, and others in the candidate’s inner circle.   “In an interview with NBC News, Russian lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya says she first received the supposedly incriminating information she brought to Trump Tower — describing alleged tax evasion and donations to Democrats — from Glenn Simpson, the Fusion GPS owner, who had been hired to conduct research in a New York federal court case.” https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-dossier-firm-also-supplied-info-used-meeting-russians-trump-n819526

    In another version as confirmed in court documents released by the Judiciary Committee last November, the Fusion GPS materials brought to the Trump Tower meeting was in “the form of a four-page memo carried by Veselnitskaya. She also shared Simpson’s work with Yuri Chaika, the prosecutor general of Russia. Simpson told the House Intelligence Committee earlier [that same] week that he did not know that Veselnitskaya provided the Browder information to Chaika or to Donald Trump Jr., the Trump campaign’s point-man in the Trump Tower meeting.”  http://dailycaller.com/2017/11/21/unsealed-fusion-gps-bank-records-show-russia-related-payments/

    What was Delivered Wasn’t What was Expected –  But, It’s Not Clear What Was Expected

    Here’s the Senate Judiciary Committee Inquiry into the Trump Tower meeting  page with exhibits and testimony: https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/press/releases/materials-from-inquiry-into-circumstances-surrounding-trump-tower-meeting?peek=JnLNybHsog26L1cFm8AR63234MDsncYLzYhn7Ze9%2FdDXzs%2B6

    What appears to be the actual four-page memo delivered (apparently provided by Fusion GPS) is reproduced by the Senate Committee as part of the Exhibit set for the Lady Lawyer.  If this what was delivered, it is worthless trash – a turgid backgrounder on the Maginski Sanctions.  Not worth reproducing in part or whole.  It’s indexed as the first four pages of the Veselnitskaya Exhibits. (see above)  I recall reading last year that after the contents were read, the meeting was quickly wrapped up, and the memo left behind in its envelope.

    The Rob Goldstone June 3 email to Don Jr. promised something more interesting, but it makes no direct reference to Hillary’s emails or DNC documents.     The way they are referenced in Goldstone’s first email, below, does not make it clear what their exact nature or provenance might actually be.

    IMHO, this is not incriminating evidence of an actual crime or conspiracy, but it does show that Rob Goldstone is part of an effort to lay down breadcrumbs leading to Trump Tower for the Lady Lawyer, particularly if Goldstone wrote the Subject Line (content routinely collected along with metadata, but normally not admissible without a warrant; if Ron Jr. wrote it, it’s ironclad proof that he’s retarded.  Just by responding to this in an email, it’s proof that he makes Fredo look like a prodigy):

    From: Donald Trump Jr.
    Subject: Re: Russia· Clinton • private and confidential
    Date: June 3, 2016 at 10:53 AM
    To: Rob Goldstone

    Thanks Rob I appreciate that. I am on the road at the moment but perhaps I Just speak to Emin first. Seems we have some llme and if it’s what you say I love it especially later in the summer. Could we do a call first thing next week when I am back?

    From: Donald Trump Jr.
    Subject: Re: Russia· Clinton • private and confidential
    Date: June 3, 2016 at 10:53 AM
    To: Rob Goldstone

    On Jun 3, 2016, at 10:36 AM, Rob Goldstone wrote:
    Good morning
    Emin just called-and asked me to contact you with something very interesting.
    The Crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father Aras this morning and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father.
    This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump • helped along by
    Aras and Emln.
    What do you think is the best way to handle this information and would you be able to speak to Emin about it directly?
    I can also send this info to your father via Rhona, but it Is ultra sensitive so wanted to send to you first.
    Best ·
    Rob Goldstone


    IF there were real evidence that #1) Hillary’s emails were illegally intercepted by the Russians (an actual crime) and that the materials promised for delivery to Trump Tower on June 6, 2016 were somehow otherwise the product of a federal crime (a big IF, there) and IF there is real evidence that Trump believed  he intended to in some way to further that crime (big IF #2), along with solid evidence that he took such an act (Big IF #3), then a conspiracy case could be made.  But, it hasn’t on the basis of the existing record.  Cohen’s statement that Trump, Sr. knew about a meeting is inadequate to prove a Conspiracy without all these elements.

    What has been proven?  Merely, Junior was stupid enough to take a meeting with someone offering “some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia.”  That doesn’t even establish collusion, really.

    I don’t see any of these three Big Ifs that might prove a Conspiracy Charge on this basis against either Trump, right now.  Do we see the outlines of “collusion” here – that’s a matter of interpretation.  Is this proof of Don, Jr’s and Mike Cohen’s stupidity? Absolutely.


    The Steele Dossier Violated Campaign Laws 

    It has also been conjectured that the Trump Tower meeting might have violated federal campaign laws.  However, that charge is even less viable than the Conspiracy to Defraud the U.S. allegation, above.  Here’s why.

    If Mueller raises the Trump Tower meeting as evidence that Trump campaign conspired with foreigners to violate Campaign Laws, he will have to also accuse Hillary Clinton and the DNC of the same federal offense.  Indeed, the campaign finance violation case that can be made against the DNC for its actual funding of former MI-6 operative Chris Steele — a UK national who authored the notorious “Pee Pee Dossier” — is far stronger than what might be pieced together conjecturally against Donald Trump, Jr. for his meeting with the Russian Lady lawyer on June 9, 2016.

    As I wrote here recently, there is much stronger evidence that the Clinton Campaign actively worked with Ukraine (and other foreign governments) before the election and actually received some “thing of value” for its money, namely foreign intelligence on Trump.  In addition, the DNC actually used that intelligence against the opposition, which makes this an actual completed conspiracy.  Indeed, the DNC’s funding of the Steele Dossier closely fits the description of a conspiracy to violate the same federal campaign law. (52 USC § 30121)

    Some quarters claim that Trump could be indicted for conspiring with foreigners to violate the law forbidding foreigners from contributing “anything of value” to a U.S. campaign.   Writing in The Atlantic, which used to be a good publication, Natasha Bertrandt laid that case out, but, of course, neglected to mention the Steele Dossier:  https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/07/trump-michael-cohen-trump-tower-meeting/566303/

    If Trump approved a meeting with foreign nationals in the hopes of obtaining something of value—i.e., opposition research at the height of the presidential election—the intent alone could provide prosecutors with an important piece in understanding the campaign’s willingness to conspire with Russia, legal experts told me.

    “It’s certainly one of the more relevant data points that we’ve had,” said the former federal prosecutor Jeff Cramer. If Trump approved the meeting, it was “clearly a violation of criminal law”—specifically, the campaign-finance laws that prohibit campaigns from soliciting things of value from foreign nationals. “And it gives color to all the cover-ups,” Cramer said.  Trump and his surrogates have denied that the president knew about the meeting approximately 20 times over the last year. Trump also personally dictated a misleading statement about the meeting on his son’s behalf, which left out the fact that the Russians had offered the campaign dirt on Clinton.

    Michael Zeldin, a former federal prosecutor in the Justice Department’s Criminal Division and a former special counsel to then–Assistant Attorney General Robert Mueller, said that if prosecutors “could establish that Trump approved the meeting with foreign nationals to receive derogatory information about his opponent—a thing of value—it would fall squarely within the black letter of campaign-finance laws. It would be difficult to dispute that the campaign received a thing of value when the candidate knew of the purpose and approved of the meeting.”

    Of course, they didn’t mention the Steele Dossier.




    PADemD, Peace Patriot, Pastiche and 22 otherstwenty, Wood, snot, ozoneman, avaistheone1, Pam, djean111, Marym625, VagrantPeters, winter is coming, Koko, MistaP, Land of Enchantment, democraticdork, 3FingerBrown, bemildred, mrdmk, Xyzse, incognito, Blackspade, Babel 17, nevereVereven like this

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19 replies
  • 2 months ago #8
    • nevereVereven (5808 posts)

      1. Recommended in the interest of logic and reason.

      Trump is a fool who may yet blunder us into war; the Dems and the Deep State cabal would give us war by design.

    • Babel 17 (5345 posts)

      2. Today, a good lawyer tries to keep you commercially viable

      Lawyers like Davis balance their clients liability under the criminal statutes vs. what their book sales can be, and what they might get from go fund me, or whatever other relatively easy money might be had.

      So it’s in that context that I take Lanny Davis’s accusations. lol ;)

      Coincidentally, this enables the client to pay their bills, and if it’s done in an entertaining enough fashion, it gets the lawyer on TV, and helps sell their books.

      Might even help them enough to enable a run for Presidency. That’s a meal ticket for life if it can be pulled off successfully.

      • leveymg (5148 posts)

        3. I'm not convinced Lanny is even any good at that.

        And, the only truth is that nobody really believes a word that a political lawyer like Lanny Davis has to say.  CNN and The WaPo have about as much credibility on this topic.  They are like drowning men clinging to each as something enormous, broken and dying sucks them all down.

        • Babel 17 (5345 posts)

          4. But while earning big bucks!


          You might be right about Davis regarding Cohen. He might not be doing a good job of selling him as someone deserving of a book deal, or being a member of a TV panel.

          Off Topic: Care to guess if Cohen gets disbarred or not?

          • leveymg (5148 posts)

            5. Cohen will be disbarred upon conviction of a felony, anyway.

            He certainly won’t be practicing law in prison.  Might give Mike some time to reread his duties to clients in the NY State Canon of Ethics, however.  Lanny might profit from taking the same refresher course.

      • MistaP (10874 posts)

        6. they're mimicking what the Pubs did with the Clintons

        it was a ratings circus for the up-and-comer Fox News (and CNN), and you could make big bank “investigating” the new Watergate: ditto Avenatti, ditto Rod Wheeler

        but again Trump just gets people to repeat past actions in the vague hope of replicating them by rote (1974 Blue Wave!)

        the Clinton campaign created Trump with the Pied Piper strategy (Third Way = Bell Curve)
    • FloridaProg (683 posts)

      7. I think it's funny CNN still stands by the story.

      Davis says he made it all up, CNN says we don’t care we’re going to treat it like it’s true anyway.

      Fake, but accurate!!

      At least the NYT and WaPo admitted they screwed up, so I suppose we should take it when we can get it. CNN doesn’t deserve to recover from this.

      You're either a FDR style progressive or you're a Democrat, but you can't be both. Decide or get out of the kitchen!!
    • Marym625 (30742 posts)

      8. On The Daily Radical

      Thank you

      Regardless if people agree or not, you always cause good discussion!

      Take Action #StopFCC https://www.battleforthenet.com/breaktheinternet/ "Once the decision was made to go into Iraq as an invader and occupier,  it’s like our nation lost its conscience. And it has not yet gotten that conscience back." Madfloridian  
    • avaistheone1 (1464 posts)

      9. A picture is worth a thousand words.

      The gif you posted with this story is perfect!  LOL

      Bookmarked for a thorough read.



        I'm not a conspiracy theorist - I'm a conspiracy analyst.   Gore Vidal      
    • Peace Patriot (4811 posts)

      10. Yep, Clinton pp dirt seems much more indictable than the attempt to set up…

      …Trump Jr.  And the attempt to set up Trump Jr. itself seems more indictable than anything Trump Jr. did.

      This may well be why it’s been two years & Mueller’s got nada.  A fair prosecutor would have to indict the Clinton campaign (not to mention the FBI, the CIA, M16, the DNC, the Tories, Saudi Arabia…).

      I figured that (nada) a while ago, though.  The Mueller circus seems designed to pressure/blackmail Trump Sr to keep U.S. troops in Syria.

      This amazing news out of the U.K. is more interesting to me this morning.  Provided by “avaistheone1,” here:


      UK Begged Trump Not To Declassify Russia Docs; Cited “Grave Concerns” Over Steele Involvement’

      The British government “expressed grave concerns” to the US government over the declassification and release of material related to the Trump-Russia investigation, according to the New York Times. 

      …the UK’s concern was over material which “includes direct references to conversations between American law enforcement officials and Christopher Steele,” the former MI6 agent who compiled the infamous “Steele Dossier.”

      …Steele also had extensive contacts with DOJ official Bruce Ohr and his wife Nellie, who – along with Steele – was paid by opposition research firm Fusion GPS in the anti-Trump campaign….

      ( – zerohedge citing NYT)

      Why are the Tories so freaked out?  Probably cuz Steele and Skripal were spy buds.  Their silly poisonous concoction about the Russkies is coming apart just as the Tories’ Brexit conjob is coming apart.  The Tories may have more worries than their government falling to anti-semitic commie vegetarians.  They may be indictable.

      WTF is going on with the ‘Atlantic Alliance,’ once so very…um…self-confident (arrogant? seemingly all-powerful? able to demolish tall buildings in a singular bound?).  And who’s in charge?  The Ukrainian nazis?  The Israel Lobby?

      I mean, who the fuck is in charge?!  (Actually, I don’t think anybody is.  I think it’s a vicious, internal Deep State war over the spoils of empire, with all parties committing treason.)

      • bemildred (10038 posts)

        11. It's sad, is what it is, a sad mess.

        It ain't the things you don't know that hurts you, it's the things you know that ain't so.
        • leveymg (5148 posts)

          12. It seems to have presented Mueller with a dilemma greater than

          the ones posed by Iran-Contra, the 9/11 and Iraq WMD fraud investigations.  Those challenges were enormous, but he managed to bottle them both up while maintaining a semblence of the Washington Consensus.  This one can’t be papered over by a few indictments of underlings, the sign-off of bi-partisan committees and in camera testimony to keep the public blissfully unaware of the ugly details.

          The parallel election tampering conspiracies and dueling dirty-tricks operations by foreign intelligence agencies revealed by Russiagate are now too well documented for even the master fixer to keep bottled up.  Any big surprise by Mueller will be met with a matching bombshell from the Republican members of various investigating committees.  Even a change in Congress before release of the Special Prosecutor’s report isn’t going to put this back into the bottle.

          Russiagate has turned in Mutually Assured Destruction for both campaigns in a very dirty, foreign involved 2016 Presidential election.

      • leveymg (5148 posts)

        13. Steele never really retired. He just took MI-6 private.

        That was supposed to make his operations more deniable. But it’s now undeniable that a British national has been caught in a completed act of providing a thing of value to a US election campaign when he carried out the Steele Memo under contract for the DNC/Clinton for America.

        In addition to the direct violation of law, that also takes away perhaps the only legal basis on which Mueller might have charged Trump with conspiracy to violate a federal law when his son met with the Russian Lady Lawyer.  Such a charge, in light of the revelation that the DNC paid for the Steele Dossier and then used it to the political advantage of Hillary Clinton, would be obvious selective prosecution and wouldn’t support a bipartisan Bill of Impeachment.

        The end game now looks like a Mexican Standoff.

        • Peace Patriot (4811 posts)

          14. That's how it looks to me, too. A lotta distraction, though, for…

          …the Billionaires’ Tax Heist.

          …more trillions for the war machine.

          …and whatnot.

          3,000 U.S. troops in Syria.  THREE THOUSAND U.S. troops squatting in 30 camps in Syria’s oil region, protecting Al Qaeda and affiliates – the beheaders of children, the aspirers to a Wahabi caliphate.

          And other whatnots.


      • Fire with Fire (1709 posts)

        15. Nobody in charge, maybe ever.

        The surreal political environment in both the US and the UK looks unique, suggesting a chaotic struggle between invisible forces over who could tell the most ridiculous lies.  But I am beginning to wonder if we are just allowed to see the chaos now, due to the end of a privileged narrative projected by the Main Stream Media.  The disputes are also much more volatile due to imperial overreach and pyramiding debt financing the military adventures.  The smell of apocalypse is in the air and the logic of grab what you can when you can has run amok.

        In The Godfather, the main plot turns on a dispute within The Five Families over control of judges.  Justice itself was “owned” by the Corleone Family, and a Mafia War broke out over the Tattaglia Family’s ambition to sell heroin.  The project would not work without the protection of the judges owned by Marlon Brando.

        The parallel genre of the Western tells the story of places like Tombstone, Arizona where rival factions used the law as a weapon for control of a silver mining town.

        We “suspend our disbelief” when watching gangster flicks and westerns, secure in the knowledge that we live in a constitutional democracy, governed by the rule of law.  We think things like gang wars over control of judges or gunfights between rival gangs for control of a city are the exceptions that prove the rule of American justice.

        We are an exceptional nation, indeed.

        • leveymg (5148 posts)

          16. The sort of disciplined self-censorship that held when DC was a small company

          town has broken down almost completely.  It’s unimaginable today that anyone would get away with the sorts of sexual shenanigans that the Kennedy brothers did with just a wink and a nod from their drinking buddies in elite media and protective details.

          Same goes for Cold War covert operations.  The CIA that ran the upper levels of the Democratic Party was still a military organization, subject to military discipline.  Everyone in any position of trust in Washington  had been in World War Two.  They had killed and lied about various crimes of war, at least they never talked about it publicly – shooting of prisoners, rapes, looting of gold and treasures –  and they continued to do it for the next 30 years, and they all kept their mouths shut, instinctively, in the name of G-d and Country.

          The Vietnam War marked a generational change, and a change in attitudes.  Just as profound was the impact on institutions and behaviors of the offshoring  of assets that followed and the globalization of business ownership.   By the Reagan era, DC was no longer small, it was no longer under military discipline,  and it was no longer really the capital of a single, coherent nation.

          I think the latter factor is most relevant here.  For thirty years after World War Two, the U.S. was run by white male veterans who instinctively obeyed the commands of other white male Americans.  If given an order through the chain of command, they routinely killed and lied without thinking about it to cover it up.  No questions asked.   Not today.  Not that the lying has stopped, it’s just that the deception and violence is undisciplined and unprincipled, beyond the games of self-advancement and short-term personal and small group gains.

          There’s really no law in this town today, just a lot of lawyers.

          • Peace Patriot (4811 posts)

            17. Yet the Kennedys refused to nuke Russia, w the entire MIC against them.

            They did NOT “instinctively obey the commands of other white male Americans.”

            They turned against the “Cold War” and were planning a world peace platform for 1964, to END the “Cold War,” end all the proxy wars, de-nuclearize the world, peacefully compete with the Soviet Union and work cooperatively to insure a decent life for all.

            They were both assassinated for this.

            And this is why I have concluded that this talk about the Kennedys’ sex lives is a CIA ‘meme.’   That was a different era – as different as night and day.  Leaders’ sex lives were considered to be a private matter.  And having mistresses or ‘playing around’ was considered NORMAL.  The Kennedys’ were no more sexually active than, say, Hubert Humphrey was.  I know a reliable witness to the parade of women in and out of Humphrey’s hotel room at the 1968 Democratic convention.  Does that ever get bandied about?  I’ve never even seen it mentioned.  And that fucker, Humphrey, was the beneficiary of Bobby Kennedy NOT being at the Democratic Convention because he was dead!   – blown away by a CIA assassin, just like his brother.

            Does Eisenhower’s mistress get bandied about?  It gets mentioned.  It’s not used to accuse him of immorality and ill treatment of women.  It was NORMAL and it was nobody’s business.  J. Edgar Hoover didn’t even dare use what he had against Martin Luther King – as much as he hated him – because it wasn’t done.  (He tried to use it privately but he didn’t dare use it publicly.)

            The Kennedys were never accused of rape or abuse.  And we know damn well that if the CIA had found any out they would have screamed it in their back alleys before, during and after they shot these men dead.

            As for emotional coercion – women feeling coerced by men with power over them or just power in general – nobody thought of this then, because it was endemic in society.  It deeply affected nearly every male-female relationship, of whatever kind, even non-sexual relationships.  So, as to John and Robert Kennedy, and to all those around them, any sexual relationship they had outside of their marriages was viewed as a relationship between two consenting adults.  They have never been accused of anything else, so why does it keep coming up?

            American society has gone ape-shit psycho on this matter.  I don’t know if it’s the ‘christian’ fundamentalists or their apparent opposite, ‘feminist’ puritans – or both, or some other force.  And I personally frankly don’t know what I think about a drunken college frat party where young Judge Kavanaugh was flinging his dick around in women’s faces.  As much as I despise the man, and as much as he wants to order my reproductive organs around, and as much as I DON’T WANT HIM ON THE SUPREME COURT on a huge range of policy issues, I’m not sure that bad behavior in college should disqualify him from public life.  Many people act out in college.  Do they grow up?, is the important question.  What should be the disqualifier is lying and hypocrisy – and being a tool of our billionaire, war profiteering overlords.  Groping among 17 year olds?  Drunken dicking around at a college party?  Dunno.

            I can’t say that I’m unhappy that his “Achilles heel” was discovered.  He is a jerk for many reasons having nothing to do with his college exploits.  So I guess I don’t have the right to gainsay what the opposition to him is doing.  But I tend to think they’ll fail because they’ve failed at everything else, and often for the same reason – using identity politics among elites when poor women and poor men of all kinds can’t feed their children and have no hope for the future.  WTF do most Americans care about college frat parties?  They’ve been priced out of college.  They’ve been priced out of food.  They’ve been priced out of owning, or even renting, a home.

            And what is going to happen if they stop Kavanaugh’s nomination on these grounds?  Trump will come up with a far worse candidate for the Supreme Court, on every vital issue but Roe v Wade, and the Democrats will sail it on through, because they’re not about poverty and they’re not about reining in corporations and they’re not about ending dirty political money.  They’re not even about women’s rights.  They are about NOTHING.


            • Fire with Fire (1709 posts)

              18. About JFK and RFK

              A couple or so months ago, we discussed the rumors, factoids and gossip about the sex lives of the Kennedys.  I share your admiration for their opposition to the war machine, and I disagree with the lefties who look at them both as Cold Warriors.  I specifically agree with you about how they changed their minds about war and peace after seeing the idiotic bullshit coming from the military and the intelligence community in action at the Bay of Pigs and with the Cuban Missile Crisis.

              I had long ago made peace with the overwhelming evidence publicly available that both of them had sex with women who weren’t their wives.  In the first place, I never thought it was any of my business with whom they had sexual relations.  In the second place, the mores of the day held that it was none of anybody’s business either.  In the third place, there was and still is no law against sleeping with Marilyn Monroe or the girlfriend of a mob boss.

              Your take here to the effect that the constant rehashing of the Kennedy libido is the result of propaganda seems very persuasive to me.  I was a pre-teen male in the early 60s, and I looked at James Bond, The Rat Pack, Hugh Hefner and The Kennedys as the epitome of cool.  Only in later decades could their political enemies successfully use their sex lives against them.


              Another great post PP.

              • Peace Patriot (4811 posts)

                19. Thank you, Fire! I just saw the allegations of drug/rape against Kavanaugh…

                …so I would revise my opinion of his college misdeeds if these prove credible.  These are serious crimes.  Drunken sex play at a frat party is not a crime, in my view – not in and of itself.  Depends on what happens.  If everybody is drunk and everybody wants to be there, and somebody gets groped, that is not a crime.  It’s a very difficult situation in which to judge behavior, though.  How do you determine if something is a crime if both or all parties involved are very drunk?  This is especially true of teenagers, but can also be true of college students who don’t yet know their alcohol limits.

                That is different from having the capacity to plan a rape – to drug someone in order to rape them – because if you can plan, then you are not that drunk.  I think that would be easier to judge – much easier – than groping or sex that occurs spontaneously in the midst of a general drunken bacchanal.

                I am a woman who came of age in the 1960s, and a lifelong feminist with plenty of stories about predatory men in my own experience and that of friends and family.  And I lived in Hollywad for many years.  The “producers couch” stories were rampant.  THAT was considered normal. The phenomenon that the “me, too” movement is addressing is real.  There is no question about it.  But I do worry about the loss of ‘habeas corpus’ – men’s lives and careers being ruined on the basis of mere allegations – especially on behavior that is borderline.  I also worry very much about the corporate media aspect of this phenomenon, what the “me, too” movement is replacing in the news (the Billionaires’ Tax Heist, for instance, and our 3,000 troops in Syria) and what it might be used for, politically – for instance, to smear innocent leftists.

                The Kennedys being smeared by a CIA ‘meme’ is something to think about, because we DO have quite a propaganda machine injecting ‘memes’ into our consciousness all the time.  That one is to aid their coverup of the assassinations – to help induce people to not care.  People who don’t care will likely never find out what the Kennedys did that got them murdered, or who did it.

                Are we being trained by the media not to care about ‘habeas corpus’ in the “me, too” movement, so that we won’t care when people start disappearing into unknown prisons for unknown crimes?  Or so that we’ll just believe them when they say, “He’s a terrorist” and never wonder, 15 years later, why he has had no trial?  Right now, the U.S. is simply executing people all over the world with drones – targeted people (with no trial), about 10% of the ‘hits,’ and non-targeted people – just people standing around, family, friends, strangers – about 90% of the ‘hits.” WTF!?

                With every lying ‘meme’ that comes out of the CIA or its compliant press, our rights as human beings get ever more eroded.  And we’re ALL vulnerable to this, no matter how smart we are and no matter how devoted we are to the truth.  We live in this context of lies.  We are barraged with lies.  So we need to be wary of anything that is treated as a “given” by news and other sources that have often betrayed us.