Here’s what I sent my Senator (includes an overlooked argument that I think should be made)

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    • #402721
      snot
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,174

      {Forgive me; I updated this to simply make it into a letter to my senator}

      Dear Senator —,

      I left a voicemail at your office today but I wish to set out in more detail one sort of consideration that I have not heard aired in the hearings or the media so far. It has to do with putting ourselves in the position of Pres. Trump and his supporters and thinking through the practical consequences of their course of conduct.

      As you know, by the time of the invasion of the Capitol, every judicial and other procedure for contesting the election had been followed, and although some cases were thrown out on procedural grounds and others are still pending, as of the time of the invasion of the Capitol, the courts had so far declined to intercede, even though they have done so in past elections and even though many if not most of the judges were appointed by Republicans.

      Vice Pres. Pence had also made clear that he wasn’t going to act to overturn the official election result. He had to know that his decision would cost him with Trump’s base, and that even if he changed his mind, they would never forgive him; he had also to have looked at the merits of Trump’s arguments carefully and come to his decision with considerable determination to stick with it.

      Pres. Trump knew all of this.  So his followers now show up at the Capitol, many of them clearly prepared to invade the building. What could the purpose, at that point in time, be?

      They were entitled to protest, but they and Pres. Trump were manifestly intent on accomplishing more than that. Was the mob going to force their way into the chambers to try to shout the legislators into abandoning the Constitutionally-prescribed procedure? Assume a best-case scenario, that they’d actually succeeded in disrupting the procedure, maybe even without hurting anyone – what then?

      Thinking it through logically and practically, the executive and legislative branches would be thrown into chaos, without any clear path for how to get out of it. Does Trump stay in office? But how could he accept a result achieved by an illegal invasion of the Capitol, without even more clearly violating his Constitutional duties? If the Electoral College vote records were destroyed, would it be possible to re-assemble them, or did Trump and his followers propose they should simply be disregarded, and the country should accept that Trump won on his own say-so, ditching the Constitutionally-prescribed processes and without any court ever having agreed? Does the military step in and install a Pres.? Or do we get a new election, and if we do, would anyone accept the result? Who are the rest of the executive branch supposed to obey?

      What about the pending court cases – are they now irrelevant? And what of all the new cases that Democrats and others would likely file in opposition to a perceived coup? If Trump and his followers don’t consider themselves bound by the courts’ decisions so far, is there some point at which they’re going to start considering themselves bound, or are we just supposed to let him and his dwindling circle of die-hard supporters remaining in the government decide everything, courts be damned? Or did Trump and his supporters imagine they could quickly replace everyone in the government who opposed the coup, including the judges, and if so, how?

      We’re talking unimaginable chaos as a foreseeable, even likely practical consequence of inciting the mob at that point in time and in that particular place.

      In sum, there really could not have been any intelligent purpose in further inciting Trump’s followers on that occasion, except to bring about the kind of chaos described above, either with some specific objectionable intent, or at best with a general hope of exploiting the chaos at the expense of the welfare of the country.

      And since I do believe that Trump is an intelligent person, it is impossible for me not to conclude that Trump either did understand what he was doing, or at the very least was criminally negligent in failing to think the consequences through.

      In considering all of this, we must go one step further and ask, if we say it is ok for a Pres. to do what this one did, where do we draw the line?  If we do not make clear that this course of conduct was unacceptable, I do not understand where the line could be drawn, without its being drawn too late.

      For this reason, among others, I urge you to vote not only to impeach and also to disqualify Pres. Trump from future office.

      Thank you for your integrity, your concern for our republic, and your valuable time and consideration.

      {There was another clarification I feel aggrieved enough to mention in this post: Trump is entitled to as much free speech as any private citizen, and the fact that he was President did NOT limit his First Amendment rights to SPEAK. But the job qualifications for the Presidency may limit what a Pres. can say IF s/he wants that JOB. The First Amendment gives Trump a right to speak, but not to have any particular job, including the Presidency if he wants to say a bunch of stuff that Congress determines amount to a “high crime or misdemeanor.”}

      Destruction is easy; creation is hard, but more interesting.

    • #402723
      Cold Mountain Trail
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 12,044

      +++
      I don’t think you’re nitpicking.

      “Trump’s supporters now show up at the Capitol, at least some of them clearly prepared to invade the building; and many of them do just this. What could the purpose be?”

      — At least for some of them, their purpose is witnessed by their carrying weapons, flex handcuffs, and the testimony of their own words (written & verbal)

      • #402756
        snot
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,174

        even if you assumed the best – i.e., even if you assume Trump meant “fight” only metaphorically, and couldn’t have foreseen that the mob really would hurt anyone – there was no possible outcome other than chaos.

        Thank you for helping me clarify my thinking.

        Destruction is easy; creation is hard, but more interesting.

    • #402732
      NV Wino
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 7,052

      Specifically, the democratic primary.

      “As we act, let us not become the evil that we deplore.” Barbara Lee
      “Politicians and pro athletes: The only people who still get paid when they lose.” William Rivers Pitt

    • #402739
      incognito
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,574

      to hang Pence, kill Pelosi, tie up as many people as possible with flex cuffs, destroy the certified votes and install Trump as President. They had high powered stun guns, regular guns, pepper spray and other military weapons.

      At that point, the military would get involved. I would think… unless they too want a Fascist Dictatorship. Who knows? Trump took an oath to the Constitution and it meant absolutely nothing to him. Who knows about the military? I don’t. There were hundreds of ex military at the insurection. Who knows what active duty military thinks or would do?

    • #402759
      Snort McDork
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,717

      And he was right.

       

      I'm Snort McDork and I approved this message.

      "I like Birdy Num-Nums"

      If you come for Nina Turner, Your ish better be airtight like Tupperware" -Rashida Talib

      • #402797
        ArtfromArk
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,444

        As long as they were at the top of the heap, of course. Or at least, if they were the ones who got to wear the brownshirts and jackboots.

        “There’s a new spirit abroad in the land. The old days of ‘grab and greed’ are on their way out. We’re beginning to think of what we owe the other fellow, not just what we’re compelled to give him. The time’s coming… when we shan’t be able to fill our bellies in comfort while others go hungry, sleep in warm beds while others shiver in the cold.... And God willing, we’ll live to see that day…” Basil Rathbone,"Sherlock Holmes Faces Death" (Universal 1943)

    • #402765
      sadoldgirl
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,207

      To me all of this is nonsense in a big way. There will never be an

      investigation into how this was permitted to happen in the first

      place. Think carefully, please. Every BLM, every peace rally, every

      rally about inequality had huge amounts of police surrounding

      them with lethal weapons. Yet DC had no protection in this case????

      As far as I have read the head of the Proud Boys has been an FBI

      informer for a long time. Still no protection of DC?? I try to look just

      at facts without emotional reaction, but without trust in an honest

      transparency by TPTB. Therefore the questions come up: Was this

      planned or just purposefully permitted to happen? Trust in government

      or the Congress is only justified when transparency is applied. In this

      case it was not. JMO

    • #402772
      Jim Lane
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 749

      @coldmountaintrail

      For some of them, the plan was definitely a straight-out coup.  They wanted Trump to invoke the Insurrection Act, declare martial law, round up a bunch of perceived enemies (from Biden on down) and have them arrested or maybe just immediately executed, etc.

      Others, however, didn’t get quite that extra-Constitutional.  They pinned their hopes on the provision that empowers state legislatures to decide how the electors are chosen.  Nothing in the Constitution requires that they be chosen based on a popular vote.  In the early years of the Republic, they weren’t always so chosen.  The state legislatures just named the electors themselves.

      Some of the pro-Trump Republicans focused on states that Biden carried that had Republican-controlled state legislatures (AZ, GA, WI, MI, PA).  They wanted those legislatures to declare that, because of rampant fraud, the certification of electors based on the November 3 results was invalid.  The legislature could declare either that Trump had actually won or that, with the fraud rendering the true winner impossible to determine, it was up to the legislature to pick electors as it saw fit.  The legislatures would then name the Republican electors.  Those electors’ votes for Trump would be send to Washington to be counted.  Because the Constitution gives the authority to the legislatures, Congress would have to count those votes, instead of the votes for Biden cast by the previously certified electors.

      Some Republican state legislators did in fact support this course.  Most, of course, did not.  One idea embraced by some of the anti-Biden forces was that, if the January 6 count could be disrupted, to be resumed at a later date, that would give time for the legislatures to see the light.  These Republicans were bitterly disappointed that the RINO state legislators had thus far refused to go along.  Nevertheless, they hoped that, with more time and with pressure from an outraged citizenry, the legislatures would act to overturn Biden’s victory.

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