How Bernie & Squad Actually Support Corporate State. w/Chris Hedges / TJDS

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    • #308073
      leftcoast mountains
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      • Total Posts: 5,436

      April 25, 2020

       

       

      This is the reason I no longer watch Bernie videos nor do I pay attention what he is doing now. There is no point and he will not be able to effect change in this country. He has lost his power.

      vote for nobody

    • #308105
      Red Cloud
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,529

      portray Chris Hedges in this movie. Nice Socialist Meets Bad Capitalists where Bernie gets pushed around.

      • #308822
        Carolina
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 220

        and Chris deserves better than Woods. I am for keeping repuke actors unemployed if at all possible… and some Dems as well. Cue: Alyssa Milano

    • #308116
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 18,759

      .

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

      • #308823
        Carolina
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 220

        I have unsubscribed from those groups linked to him and recently got a text — as I had throughout the campaign — andresponded: Don’t bother me any more; remove my number from your queue

    • #308134
      MizzGrizz
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,913

      ..but I simply can’t feel as betrayed by Bernie as so many seem to.

      Perhaps because I had no illusions that it would ever be any different from how it went down.I knew that Bernie,being the gentleman he is,would promise to support the nominee no matter who it was,and I also knew the GD system would shut him down.

      I’m angry,but not at him.I’m angry at the Democratic Party,the media,and my peers who would rather go for what they think is safe rather than lose their perks and status.

      Bernie was exactly what I expected him to be-a gentleman,who would keep his word even if the other person doesn’t.Perhaps that very gentlemanliness worked against him,and therefore us,in the long run.He might have been too nice—a Dubcek or an Imre Nagy,too paralyzed by having been in the system to really fight.

      Maybe in a hundred years we will have a Lech Walesa—a tough,uncompromising voice from outside the corrupt political system who can deal the whole rotting edifice the first blow that collapses it.

      • #308141
        game meat
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,383

        I don’t like how Sanders ran his campaign this time around. I didn’t like the way he threw so many of his surrogates under the bus for frivolous reasons while continuously referring to his biggest competition as his “good friend.” I’m not sure I buy that he was just being a gentleman. There’s a thin line between being a good person and being a doormat, and Sanders crossed it often. Kindness is often mistaken for weakness, but the reverse is also true; weakness can easily be mistaken for kindness. Throughout the campaign, many insisted it was strategic, and he had to do these things. There were lots of 3d chess type arguments, and those arguments are always rationalizations.

        If Sanders were a character in a Shakespeare play, his complete lack of a killer instinct would be his fatal flaw.

        Now, all of that being said, I don’t hate him over all of this. He’s not perfect, but if I look at the totality of the man, I still have a lot of respect for him. I think a lot of people had higher expectations for Sanders than I did. I have no reason to believe his motives were anything but pure. I just don’t think he had what was required to win this particular fight. And to be fair, he was up against a lot. It was never going to be easy.

        • #308146
          Ohio Barbarian
          Moderator
          • Total Posts: 18,759

          @gamemeat That’s how I feel, and for personal anecdotal reasons. I had relatives born as early as 1907 telling me what things were like when they were younger well into the 1980s. They told me because I liked history and if I asked if they remembered such-and-such event, I’d often hear a good story about it.

          I also learned what their own generational code of respectable behavior was, and Bernie Sanders never went against it. Biden was his colleague, and there were only certain things Bernie could say about Joe Biden without violating that code of gentlemanly conduct.

          I can understand it at an emotional level. Fortunately, I can also understand why my millennial stepkids think that’s really some kind of selfish bullshit at an emotional level as well. Whatever happened to Not Me, Us?

          It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

          Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

        • #308827
          Bernin4U
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 499

          acting in bad faith (ie, a typical politician). Seems very unlikely to me, but for those who do hate him, I’ll bet more often than not, it’s because they’re not giving him this benefit of doubt.


          @gamemeat
          @ohiobarbarian

          • #308857
            Ohio Barbarian
            Moderator
            • Total Posts: 18,759

            @bernin4u I don’t hate Bernie. This reminds of a young (30s) Berniecrat I know. She said that Democrats fall in love with their candidates, and she’s right. Many of them do. Since I was in my 20s I always thought that was ridiculous. The flip side is that if their candidate is criticized at all, they tend to accuse the other person of hating their candidate.

            Frankly, Bernie’s not worth my hatred. Hate’s such a huge emotional investment and takes a lot of effort; at least it does for me. I never totally adored Bernie, either. At best, politically he’s a Social Democrat. At worst, he’s a New Deal/Great Society Democrat, 21st Century edition. I’m a socialist. Bernie’s as far to the right as I’m willing to go.

            The fact is Bernie did quit the primary and did endorse a man who I sincerely believe to be a Fascist. I think it was a mistake for him to bow down to the VDP, and that he was craven when he endorsed Biden. I don’t have his gentlemanly values of personal conduct, either. I don’t believe in turning the other cheek, I believe in breaking the other’s jaw if they punch me first.

            I cannot respect Bernie for the way he ended his campaign, but that does not mean I hate him. It does mean that I no longer trust him as far as the general election goes.

            It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

            Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

            • #308897
              Bernin4U
              Participant
              • Total Posts: 499

              @ohiobarbarian

              My point is that we can all be frustrated with him as a campaigner. But the issue I’m talking about, not brought up much here, is that a lot of people claim not to support or trust him in the first place, because they don’t think he’s sincere. IOW, a deliberate sheepdog. IOW, possibly the world’s best double agent?

              • #308909
                Ohio Barbarian
                Moderator
                • Total Posts: 18,759

                @bernin4u You know I enthusiastically supported Bernie, and I did believe him when he was saying he intended to win. I don’t think he was lying at the time, but for whatever reason, he decided to give up. That in itself isn’t so bad, but endorsing Joe Biden just is. Maybe I was foolish, maybe I was naive after 2016, maybe I haven’t drunk enough beer, but I didn’t think he would just suck up to the Party like he did.

                I don’t think he was a sheepdog from the beginning, though others may disagree with me. I do think he is a sheepdog now. I do not have to like that, and I don’t. I despise his current behavior. That doesn’t mean I don’t give him credit for all the good that he did. People are complicated.

                It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

                Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

      • #308165
        Cold Mountain Trail
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 10,743

        @mizzgrizz     “Maybe in a hundred years we will have a Lech Walesa—a tough,uncompromising voice from outside the corrupt political system who can deal the whole rotting edifice the first blow that collapses it.”

        Have to disagree with you about walesa.  Can’t speak to his personal character, but he had a great deal of help from the vatican, the US, and other players, at a time when the ussr & a lot of the inner party was pretty weak & eager to get on the capitalist train as well.

         

        • #308224
          MizzGrizz
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 2,913

          ..But in and of itself that didn’t matter much—the attitude of the powerful was always “how many divisions does the Pope have?”

          Walesa was a worker first,not someone embedded within the government structure.That’s what it took to strike the first blow against a system that was tottering already.

          And that’s what it will take here.Not a political revolution,as Bernie envisioned—it’s too easy for the politicians to stop it.

          • #308641
            Cold Mountain Trail
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 10,743

            In the year leading up to martial law, Reagan Administration policies supported the Solidarity movement, waging a public relations campaign to deter what the Carter administration had seen as “an imminent move by large Soviet military forces into Poland.”[16] Michael Reisman from Yale Law School named operations in Poland as one of the covert regime change actions of the CIA during the Cold War.[17] Colonel Ryszard Kukliński, a senior officer on the Polish General Staff was secretly sending reports to CIA officer David Forden.[18] The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) transferred around $2 million yearly in cash to Solidarity, for a total of $10 million over five years. There were no direct links between the CIA and Solidarnosc, and all money was channeled through third parties.[19] CIA officers were barred from meeting Solidarity leaders, and the CIA’s contacts with Solidarnosc activists were weaker than those of the AFL-CIO, which raised $300,000 from its members, which were used to provide material and cash directly to Solidarity, with no control of Solidarity’s use of it. The U.S. Congress authorized the National Endowment for Democracy to promote democracy, and the NED allocated $10 million to Solidarity.[20]

            When the Polish government launched martial law in December 1981, however, Solidarity was not alerted. Potential explanations for this vary; some believe that the CIA was caught off guard, while others suggest that American policy-makers viewed an internal crackdown as preferable to an “inevitable Soviet intervention.”[21] CIA support for Solidarity included money, equipment and training, which was coordinated by Special Operations.[22] Henry Hyde, U.S. House intelligence committee member, stated that the USA provided “supplies and technical assistance in terms of clandestine newspapers, broadcasting, propaganda, money, organizational help and advice”.[23] Initial funds for covert actions by CIA were $2 million, but soon after authorization were increased and by 1985 CIA successfully infiltrated Poland.[24]

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity_%28Polish_trade_union%29

             

            Gdańsk shipyards have fallen on hard times. Once a place of work for over 20,000 people, the Gdańsk shipyards provide only 2,200 jobs today.[6] The European Union has backed a restructuring plan for the shipyard.

            Industrial Union of Donbas obtained 75% shares of the shipyard through privatisation in 2007, with the remaining share held by the Polish government.[10] The Polish government regained shares of the shipyard from IDS in 2018 reaching 50%

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gda%C5%84sk_Shipyard

            Industrial Union of Donbass (ISD; Ukrainian: Індустріальний союз Донбасу) is one of the biggest corporations in Ukraine. It is a horizontally integrated holding company that owns or directs stocks of 40 industrial enterprises in the East Ukraine, Hungary, and Poland. The company was created in 1995 and before the appearance of SCM Holdings in 2000 was a major steel rolling corporation in the East Ukraine.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Union_of_Donbas

             

            However, under EU rules, state aid for struggling shipyards can only be granted if it is accompanied by extensive cost-cutting aimed at restoring long-term viability.  Another condition is that private investors must be brought on board.

            Without such moves, the EU insists that the aid paid to Gdansk is illegal and therefore needs to be repaid.

            http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6956549.stm

             

            Poland is going MAGA

            • #308676
              MizzGrizz
              Participant
              • Total Posts: 2,913

              ..which is more than he did for unions in our own country.That very lip service proves that he knew how unions can topple the status quo,which is why the senile bastard broke them over here.

              Solidarity officials may not have known that some of their funding came from the CIA.Maybe some suspected,but nothing could have been proven at that time.And when martial law did come to Poland,Ronnie didn’t say too much about it,hardly what you would have expected from such a dedicated Cold Warrior as he.

              My initial point was this:The Soviet Union  and its empire,by 1980,  was a society very simliar to ours,with a rich gerontocracy running things and resistant to even the mildest reform,a completely propagandizing media,and total indifference to the working people the society claimed to support.There had been rebellions before,but Gomulka in Poland was an Obama figure,promising reform but not delivering.And Nagy and Dubcek,like Bernie,were crushed.

              So the first blow had to come from outside the governmental system—from the shipyards in Gdansk,where they did everything unions should be doing in this country and aren’t.

              In a hundred years,the rebellion against plutocracy will come from outside the government in the same way.And when it does,nations who have had enough of the United States will send that movement money too.

      • #308249
        leftcoast mountains
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 5,436

        Have you heard him say that? If not now then when? I stopped paying attention to him so I was unaware of this turn about? That was almost his whole campaign. If not medical now during an epidemic then when?

        vote for nobody

    • #308142
      Bernie Boomer
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 343

      @mizzgrizz
      I just can’t blame him because he’s a decent human being. Disappointed, yes. Angry, no.
      If he had gotten down and rolled in the gutter with the rest of them, he still would have been shut-out by the DNC and the corporate Dems. Seeing the anger toward him makes me think some voted for him with the phrase “Come back with your shield, or on it” on their lips.

    • #308143
      Passionate Progressive
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,672

      left the movement without leadership and without leverage.  He adds insult to injury by fundraising for the DNC….Whether or not Obama was the catalyst or not there were signs all along (‘Joe Biden is my friend’ moments)  where Bernie’s revolutionary policies could not be reconciled with his unwillingness to fight for the primary by going after Biden and by his stalwartness in agreeing to support whomever the nominee happened to be.   I don’t have any belief in his ability to further influence the party as if he had any influence from the start of his campaign… He has had influence in the public and should be congratulated for that – but whatever degree he has influenced a popular movement, that influence and the derivative energies could be better spent outside the Democratic Party.  Even IF the squad were genuine, at the end of the day they are outliers and any effort that they make is negated by opposition in the corporate controlled DNC…Their efforts would be better served in a third party or genuine populist movement.

      The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.....Martin Luther King '63

    • #308149
      RufusTFirefly
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,484

      … this interview was well worth listening to.

      I certainly don’t think we should deny or hide from the world’s problems, but often after listening to Chris, instead of feeling determined and ready to mobilize, I want to get into the fetal position. Maybe the difference is that Chris is religious and I’m not.

      Anyway, that explains my hesitancy to listen to Hedges or read him under normal circumstances. But I stuck it out this time and was glad I did. Thanks for posting, @leftcoastmountains!

      Also, Jimmy’s coda is hilarious — in a dark sort of way.

      • #308153
        Cold Mountain Trail
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 10,743

        “after listening to Chris, instead of feeling determined and ready to mobilize, I want to get into the fetal position. Maybe the difference is that Chris is religious and I’m not”

        i’m religious (tho not standardly so) & i have the same reaction to hedges in anything but small doses.  he’s long on jeremiad, short on revelation, imho.  I first heard of him when I read his book “war is a force that gives us meaning’.  Thought ‘war’ was on point, but since then it seems he’s fallen into this schtick of dark without light.  And when he has guests he tends to hog the ball.

        I will listen to the podcast on your rec though.


        @rufustfirefly

    • #308297
      snot
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,131

      with his usual brilliance.

      Destruction is easy; creation is hard, but more interesting.

    • #308621
      Pastiche
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 380

      I agree with @MizzGrizz and@ Bernie Boomer and can not understand the nastiness regarding Bernie on this site. Before he entered the election this time, everyone knew he was a gentleman and did not gutter fight like others have. He showed his personality in 2016 for those that did not know him before. This is one of the reasons so many flocked to him.

      Disappointment is expected, but anger? I am angry at the people that fucked this up for Bernie, not at Bernie. He sought to give us what no other candidate had dared ever try before and I was grateful. He got all of his issues in the news and in the national dialog, again when no one else would.

      How can you expect something from someone that they do not have to give?

      “We’re about to have an election in which Incompetent A is going to be contesting with Incompetent B when both of them have demonstrated nothing remotely like any shred of adequacy to the scope of the problems we face.”

      Richard Wolff

      • #308660
        djean111
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 5,535

        I wonder what the end game is.  I did not expect SV-levels of hatred for a man who has done so much good for so many people in his lifetime.  The embrace of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.  And do wonder why rabid Gabbard supporters did not turn on Gabbard.  Curious, that.  just some thoughts about the whole thing.

        Been quite the eye-opener.  On several levels.  And looks like it is true – progressives really do eat their own.  Pity.  Not being a herd animal, or being a person influenced by pundits, this is all very strange and makes me feel like an outsider.  Which is where I will stay.

        • #308675
          MizzGrizz
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 2,913

          2016 clearly revealed my permanent outsider status to me,and I embraced it.My peers loathe me now,and I welcome their hatred.As for me,it is impossible for me to speak with either Democrats or Republicans my age without being so furious I charge.

           

        • #308682
          ArtfromArk
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 1,191

          I feel like an outsider, too. By the way, I know you have spent some time in Tokyo. Tokyo is currently not in a lockdown per se, but lots of Tokyo businesses are closed because of proclamations by the governor of Tokyo and the prime minister, and won’t be open again until at least May 9th. I am so bored right now.

           


          @djean111

          “There’s a new spirit abroad in the land. The old days of ‘grab and greed’ are on their way out. We’re beginning to think of what we owe the other fellow, not just what we’re compelled to give him. The time’s coming… when we shan’t be able to fill our bellies in comfort while others go hungry, sleep in warm beds while others shiver in the cold.... And God willing, we’ll live to see that day…” Basil Rathbone,"Sherlock Holmes Faces Death" (Universal 1943)

          • #308719
            djean111
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 5,535

            cars and people.  Are all the food stalls in the train stations and big department stores closed, too?  Those, convenient stores, and the French bakeries (um, okay, and Dunkin’ Donuts) were my main sources of sustenance, what with my loooong working days.  I just looked at Shibuya Crossing live cam – almost empty, but it is almost midnight, have to check it tonight.  I used to wander through Harajuku and also Asakusa – temple, stalls, street of a million little bowls and expensive plastic food, and sometimes actual fried chicken in the food area of the big department store near there and a restaurant with water running down the windows like a curtain and you made your own little pancake things on a grill.  I mostly just walked and walked and looked at stuff.  Not very touristy.  Even with shops closed, a million times more interesting than where I am now.  Be safe!  Not too bad where I am, 1.4 million people, 21 deaths (Hillsborough County Fl.)


            @artfromark

            • #310606
              ArtfromArk
              Participant
              • Total Posts: 1,191

              I haven’t been to Tokyo for a while. My company wants me to stay at home, and the events that I would have been attending at this time of year have been canceled. Convenience stores are considered to be “essential”, so they aren’t closed. Neither are supermarkets, banks, post offices, and other establishments that are considered “essential”. The governor of my “state” has issued an emergency proclamation, and people in my area seem to be abiding by it, even though it isn’t mandatory. The prime minister wants to give each head of household 100,000 yen (about $900), and I am awaiting my application, which will be sent to me by postal mail. I have been hurting financially somewhat due to the various decrees, but I am not as bad off as a lot of Japanese whose livelihoods depend on people coming together in close quarters.  The prime minister will make a decision by early next week as to whether the stay-at-home decree should be extended to the end of May.


              @djean111

              “There’s a new spirit abroad in the land. The old days of ‘grab and greed’ are on their way out. We’re beginning to think of what we owe the other fellow, not just what we’re compelled to give him. The time’s coming… when we shan’t be able to fill our bellies in comfort while others go hungry, sleep in warm beds while others shiver in the cold.... And God willing, we’ll live to see that day…” Basil Rathbone,"Sherlock Holmes Faces Death" (Universal 1943)

              • #310612
                ArtfromArk
                Participant
                • Total Posts: 1,191

                it’s almost impossible right now to travel between Japan and the US. There is only one international airport in Japan that still accommodates flights to the US (Narita), and the number of flights has been cut drastically. And if you’re coming from the US, be prepared to spend 2 weeks in quarantine (at your home if you live in Japan, at various facilities if you have no permanent address here).

                “There’s a new spirit abroad in the land. The old days of ‘grab and greed’ are on their way out. We’re beginning to think of what we owe the other fellow, not just what we’re compelled to give him. The time’s coming… when we shan’t be able to fill our bellies in comfort while others go hungry, sleep in warm beds while others shiver in the cold.... And God willing, we’ll live to see that day…” Basil Rathbone,"Sherlock Holmes Faces Death" (Universal 1943)

    • #308738
      Punxsutawney
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 1,974

      The man doesn’t appear to be the solution we need, but he sure as hell isn’t the problem. As much as I would like a “savior” to come help us, I think in the end it is up to us to be the change and that’s hard.

      In America, “Liberty” means “Free to Die in Service of Capital” - Amfortas the hippie.

      Most of today’s elites have the moral and social reasoning capacities of spoiled toddlers.

      “People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage...but the privileged also feel that their privileges, however egregious they may seem to others, are a solemn, basic, God-right. The sensitivity of the poor to injustice is a trivial thing c

      • #308745
        MizzGrizz
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 2,913

        Most people want a savior,because FDR was one.But FDR didn’t have intelligence agencies and an entire corps of elite media against him,and in those days the Democratic Party really wanted to win,especially because the great Norman Thomas on the Socialist ticket presented a real alternative to business as usual.

        That combination of primary rigging by the Democrats,the entire elite propaganda media against him,and complacent baby boomers was just too strong for Bernie to beat.

        So he can’t be a savior.He carried the cause of the working class this far.Now we have to face that we are on our own.

         

         

         

    • #308785
      PTTP
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 298

      But very good.  One of the best I have seen.  Touched on so many different pertinent subjects.

      PowerToThePeople!  Bernie or Bust 2020!

    • #308907
      Carolina
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 220

      Lengthy, but excellent. Touches on everything, so the heading is rather misleading.

      Now I need a drink!

    • #310614
      bazukhov
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,952

      Finding a politician who has a chance to win the presidency who hasn’t supported the “corporate state” in some way is nigh on impossible.   I voted for Bernie and support the Squad.

      Tell me, great captain, how do the angels sleep when the devil leaves his porch light on? Tom Waites

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