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Home Main Forums General Discussion I am sorry, but I am furious with my fellow progressives here.

  • sadoldgirl (3002 posts)
    Donor

    I am sorry, but I am furious with my fellow progressives here.

    Please, hear me out for a moment. Many here would like to see

    Trump gone and/or punished. I detest the man and am equally

    upset about his and the Repugs agenda, but as I have stated before:
    He was elected into the WH and we should apply equal judgement

    (if that is the right word) to his predecessors. And I don’t see that

    here. W. and Cheney were war criminals, causing thousands of deaths,

    as well as destabilizing countries and a region with an illegal war.

    However:” Impeachment is off the table”, right? In steps Obama:

    “We have to look forward!” And then this:”Some folks were tortured”

    but we had to forgive those criminals because they were “patriots”.

    Next: Drone strikes into sovereign countries, an illegal war against

    Libya, and sending troops into Syria. Millions of people displaced and

    thousands killed! Did you cry out for impeachment? Yet, Obama, Biden,

    and, yes, especially Clinton had blood on their hands. Blood and suffering

    of thousands, who never attacked us. Further escalations, economic sanctions

    on countries, which did not hurts us. Recall:Economic sanctions are an

    indirect act of war. Giving the CIA more power to use propaganda in the US,

    and confirming and solidifying thePatriot Act. All this was the Obama administration.

    Oh, yes, I heard at the end of his administration some voices rising up at a place

    am not supposed to mention. Yet, none rose to a level of impeachment or a special

    prosecutor.

    Now we have a crook as POTUS, at least imo. It’s all about money for himself and

    his cronies. Yes, he sent cruise missiles into Syria; however he warned the Russians

    -and thereby the Syrians- where and what was coming. RT admitted that. Thus there

    is right now very little blood on his hands. He is delusional about his abilities to

    cut “DEALS’ with Russia, China, NK, and Iran. Most of these countries and others

    have already aligned to fight US world hegemony. However, as a typical TV star he

    talks with or to them to enhance his standing at home. Well, let’s face it: Talking is

    far superior to bombing.

    Yes, most of us were deceived by Obama, but if you did not scream for his impeachment

    then, don’t feel you have the justification to do so now with a moral certitude.

    IMO Russia-gate and all its implications are a tool of the establishment, Deep State,

    or Shadow Government, whichever term you like. It is meant to divide us even here.

    Let us fight Trump and the Repug Congress on the issues, because that is what most

    people in this country  would appreciate.

    Thanks for your patience.

    twenty, Pastiche, Admiral Loinpresser and 66 othersMrMickeysMom, avaistheone1, tonyl, chknltl, Hawkowl, Wood, Chop Chop, iggy, Piperay, leveymg, zoolook67, beltanefauve, Rehrucken, Peace Patriot, ThinkingANew, ozoneman, NothingcleverjustRay, TIME TO PANIC, Betty Karlson, Iwalani88, Common good, hypergrove, DirtyHippyBastard, caliny, 99Forever, pa28, Land of Enchantment, Pacco Fransisco, ASimpleGame, Pam, BillZBubb, Passionate Progressive, Blackspade, canoeist52, ctsnowman, relgire, incognito, Mnpaul, Marym625, Smarmie Doofus, bemildred, Enthusiast, Shlabotnik, HomerRamone, LaaDeeDaaVA, djean111, mmonk, Illegal Smile, davidthegnome, VagrantPeters, 3FingerBrown, rudycantfail, Xyzse, Dragon Turtle, Yanath, whispers, PADemD, Iwillnevergiveup, tokenlib, graycat, Bearian, id-entity, democraticdork, nevereVereven, Silver Witch, Cleita like this

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    • Major Hogwash (4976 posts)
      Donor

      1. Reality is a harsh taskmaster.

      Especially for those who live in the matrix on the internet.

      Trump moya marionetka ~ Putin  
      • roguevalley (2797 posts)
        Donor

        3. impeachment is a loser not just because it feels like corrupt people doing

        corrupt things to corrupt people, we are all tired of all of them, but it will give us mike pence. Get congress, then vote him out.

        Be love. Be light. Fear is the only darkness. Love is the only light.
        • Cleita (3544 posts)

          5. +++

          Best way forward is what you said.

        • Major Hogwash (4976 posts)
          Donor

          11. Too bad. Pirate politics is the new normal.

          I don’t give too much thought about what peeps who don’t like Pence have to say about impeachment.

          Kavanaugh won’t be confirmed next month as Trump’s new addition to the Supreme Court, either.
          Rand Paul and Jeff Flake both said they won’t vote to confirm him, and the Republicans needed all of the Republicans in the Senate to vote for him in order to confirm Kavanaugh by a simple majority.
          McCain won’t vote for Kavanaugh now, either.

          So, the Republicans have lost the 50 votes they needed to confirm Kavanaugh.
          They don’t have a simple majority.

          Trump moya marionetka ~ Putin  
          • Stockholmer (5307 posts)
            Donor

            20. Heitkamp, Donnelly and Manchin will vote to confirm.

            Maybe more Dummicrats.

          • BillZBubb (4045 posts)
            Donor

            43. How much you want to bet on Kavanaugh?

            He’ll get enough Democrats to vote him in.

            DemExit! Don't give the Democrats a dime. Don't identify as a Democrat. Drop Democratic identification below 20%. Only then will they support true progressive policy. Until then, corporate money rules.
        • cascadiance (3784 posts)
          Donor

          17. You'd have to look to impeach both of them if you do it…

          … which may be difficult to do.  Kind of like both Nixon and Agnew were pushed to resign at once too or be impeached.

          But if you even think of doing this, do not even bother until 2019.  And only then if Dems retake the House, and hopefully we can find a way if there’s a new majority to put a better Speaker of the House than Nancy Pelosi.  If you don’t wait until then, you’ll get Paul Ryan as president.  He may want to retire as speaker, but methinks he might want to stay on as president if he had a shot at it through a PREMATURE impeachment.

          All the more reason we need to really have an upsurge of the progressives like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez elected so that progressives can have enough votes to push out Pelosi and put someone good in as speaker instead.  Perhaps even the threat of a new progressive speaker becoming president in 2019 might have both Trump and Pence try to behave better if the liklihood of getting such a majority might seem more likely as election time gets closer.

          Vote AGAINST the race to the bottom by both corporate parties who seek to screw workers over globally!                                                                                  
          • Coldmountaintrail (9409 posts)
            Donor

            95. Are you saying there was a connection between Agnew's resignation &

            Watergate?  Agnew was prosecuted for deals done before he was VP, back in the 60s when he worked for Baltimore County and as Gov of Maryland.

            If it had something to do with Watergate, it would have been a sub rosa deal.  No connection was made at the time that I can recall.  Nixon didn’t resign until August 1974, 10 months after Agnew left.  The Senate Watergate investigative committee had just started up in Feb. 1973.

             

            “In early 1973, shortly after assuming the role of United States Attorney for Maryland, George Beall opened an investigation of corruption in Baltimore County, involving public officials, architects, engineering firms, and paving contractors.  Beall’s target was the current political leadership in Baltimore County. There were rumors that Agnew might be involved, which Beall initially discounted….

            On October 10, 1973, Agnew…pled no contest to one felony charge, tax evasion, for the year 1967. (US Atty General)Richardson agreed that there would be no further prosecution of Agnew, and released a 40-page summary of the evidence. Agnew was fined $10,000 and placed on three years’ unsupervised probation. At the same time, Agnew submitted a formal letter of resignation to the Secretary of State, Henry Kissinger, and sent a letter to Nixon stating he was resigning in the best interest of the nation. Nixon responded with a letter concurring that the resignation was necessary to avoid a lengthy period of division and uncertainty, and applauding Agnew for his patriotism and dedication to the welfare of the US.”

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiro_Agnew#Criminal_investigation_and_resignation

             

            • Major Hogwash (4976 posts)
              Donor

              130. Of course there was. The Republican party wasn't going to turn over this . .

              . . . country to Agnew.
              Smart people knew why he resigned many months before it became apparent to the majority of people . . . so he could be replaced by a party boy the Republicans chose themselves.
              Agnew was not well-liked by most of the wealthy Republican donors.
              He was an egomaniac that wouldn’t keep his mouth shut.

              Nixon had that dirt on Agnew about tax evasion to use later on him to reel him in just in case Agnew went rogue.
              When it became apparent that Nixon was going to be impeached, they had to get Agnew out of there and replace Agnew with one of their own.
              A lot of Republicans hated Agnew as much as the Democrats did because he was so combative with the press and with the Democrats.
              Then, if and when Nixon resigned, their choice for the new Vice President could step in to Nixon’s shoes, so to speak.

              That’s why Agnew resigned on October 10, 1973.
              Only 9 months before Nixon himself resigned.

               

              Trump moya marionetka ~ Putin  
              • Coldmountaintrail (9409 posts)
                Donor

                138. 10 months before nixon resigned, not 9.

                agnew = 10/10/73         Nixon = 8/9/74

                Agnew resigned 10 days before Richardson and Ruckleshaus resigned after being ordered to fire Cox, but before Nixon agreed to turn over his tapes.

                The WH burglars’ trial began Jan 8, 1973 and ended Jan 30.

                Nixon was inaugurated (2nd term) Jan 20 1973.

                Agnew resigned because of a Maryland corruption investigation that was already ongoing in 2/73 when Agnew got wind of it and tried to get information about it.

                It seems to me that if what you’re saying is true, it would mean that by Jan-Feb 1973, ‘someone’ already knew Nixon was going down — and by extension that Nixon’s demise was the raison d’etre of the whole operation.

                I’ve long thought that maybe Watergate wasn’t what it seemed to be, but since you tell me all the ‘smart’ people knew this, it would be nice to get a bit more evidence of same.

                 

                 

          • id-entity (2750 posts)

            125. Do the math

            According to Wiki, there’s 79 Justice Democrat candidates, and less than half of those won their primaries, and even in best scenario not much more than half of those will win the office.

            So by rough estimate give or take 20. Which is nada. Zilch. Nothing. When votes are being counted on house floor, on senate floor or inside the Democratic wing of the fascist war party.

            Can you count how much money you should get back from hundred dollar bill if the product you are buying costs  2 dollars? This math aint’ more complicated than that.

            Disclaimer: You are free to reproduce, distribute, interpret, misinterpret, distort, garble, do what you like, even claim authorship, without my consent or the permission of anybody.
            • cascadiance (3784 posts)
              Donor

              140. I think there are already a lot of Democrats in the House that would replace her

              … if given the chance, as this article conjectures just a few months ago.

              https://www.politico.com/story/2018/06/20/pelosi-democrats-candidates-midterms-655484

              Now many of those not wanting her in are more “moderate” Democrats, but it is interesting that one of the two “challengers” to her authority mentioned in this article just happens to be Joe Crowley, who won’t be in the House unless he somehow wins as a “Working Families Party” rep instead of as a Democrat.  Don’t think they would want to elect someone outside of their party to be speaker, would they?  Just another accomplishment that Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has accomplished with her primary win!

              The key is whether there might be enough unity from those standing against Pelosi to vote for a more progressive alternative to her, which isn’t clear from the tone of this article.  Or if in fact somehow Pelosi gestures to the more progressive new congress people that she’d be more progressive than the alternative candidate that those other congress critters would offer to support as an alternative for the newer Democrats to back in opposition to her.  Perhaps offer more unity on populist stances issues instead of “left” or “right” stances.  I have to believe that even in many red states where you have more “moderate” Democrats, they realize that perhaps as many other voters that aren’t Democrats who voted them in probably like the idea of a Democrat being more likely to get big money out of politics that screws over everyone that’s not rich, regardless of party.  That could be a force of unity.  And someone as speaker that really is strongly rooted in populist stances, would also be a good person to have third in line for the presidency in case impeachment is brought to the table in 2019.

              Vote AGAINST the race to the bottom by both corporate parties who seek to screw workers over globally!                                                                                  
              • id-entity (2750 posts)

                142. couple socialists

                is just figleaf for having more and more deep state “national security” warcriminals and fascists as reps. Nothing is changing the fact that it’s a pro-war fascist party and is becoming more and more so.

                Disclaimer: You are free to reproduce, distribute, interpret, misinterpret, distort, garble, do what you like, even claim authorship, without my consent or the permission of anybody.
        • vanflower (1058 posts)

          56. That's the best synopsis of the impeachment dream I have seen yet

          “corrupt people doing corrupt things to corrupt people”  Most people I meet don’t give a shit about russia or mueller’s investigations into tax fraud by anyone connected to trump – it all seems so contrived.

          I am no trump supporter but I have to give it to him so far, as an outsider everyone is out for his head, but he keeps chugging along making fools of himself and his attackers.  I also have to give him credit for not starting any new wars (so far) and in fact seems to be de-escalating some of our conflicts.  When is the last time a president has not started a war???

          I predict he is not impeached in the sense that he must leave office, and that due to all the left’s fixation on identity politics and lack of any real promise of progressive change in economic issues or healthcare (they had their chance to pass real healthcare and gave us the ACA instead)   that he will win re-election

          • ThinkingANew (2065 posts)

            80. Yep, it is a surprise to see a few here supporting the corrupt mindset

            Even people at my work who used to believe this shit no longer really do. So if impeachment happens it will be completely theater and a tyranny by a hysterical minority. And a very dangerous step into the darkness with an angry mob manipulated by mafia type leaders playing games: That is much more likely to lead in a very dangerous direction.

            Though the one authoritarian here who is very loud on this has been entirely inconsistent and can’t even see it.

            He should read this as in the past he has done just what this article talks about:

            https://www.rt.com/op-ed/436581-ukraine-savchenko-babchenko-russia/

             

            "(modern) newspapers publish nothing more than “weaponized text"" “When you read a newspaper article, you are reading weaponized text that is designed to affect a person just like you." Julian Assange  
            • vanflower (1058 posts)

              107. It really does appear we are mob ruled

              How has Twitter now become the defacto jury and judge and arbiter of what’s news and what is just. Is it just a lazy media (btw great quote in your tag line it’s so true should add all MSM) or are Twitter users just useful idiots and bots.

          • Wood (2383 posts)
            Donor

            98. yup.

            "All things wrong will move on if you let them."  - Prem Rawat
      • sadoldgirl (3002 posts)
        Donor

        7. No, talk to a lot of people just in my very diverse neighborhood.

        Yes, it is low income, but they don’t give a hoot about this contrived

        Russia sheet. They mostly say:”That’s the government for you.”

        • Major Hogwash (4976 posts)
          Donor

          13. So, now you're madoldgirl, huh?

          Doesn’t matter, too bad your neighborhood doesn’t have a forum section to post here on.

          Trump moya marionetka ~ Putin  
          • sadoldgirl (3002 posts)
            Donor

            14. Sorry, but they have two or three jobs to keep up on

            and some of them feel they are too old to get on any forum.

            • Major Hogwash (4976 posts)
              Donor

              15. Sure, sure, I understand.

              They have to work 60 hours a week while living in the retirement community.

              Yeah, right.

              Trump moya marionetka ~ Putin  
              • sadoldgirl (3002 posts)
                Donor

                19. Keep on insulting people, reminds me of "deplorables"

                A true progressive attitude! Thank you so very much! Now it is obvious

                where you come from!

              • davidthegnome (3282 posts)
                Donor

                22. I don't think you do understand.

                Not even a little.

                “There is no distinctly native American criminal class save Congress.” - Mark Twain
              • bemildred (10038 posts)
                Donor

                28. Don't insult people just because they are not buying what you are selling.

                It ain't the things you don't know that hurts you, it's the things you know that ain't so.
                • djean111 (7958 posts)
                  Donor

                  29. That seems to be, really, all a thwarted authoritarian has, is insults.

                  Illuminating as fuck.

                  • *Obligatory disclaimer - when I say "Democratic Party" I mean the DNC - the Clintons and the un-elected people and the consultants and the lobbyists and the corporations who actually run things.  The people who work and vote and are registered as "D" are no more the actual party than Trekkies are Star Trek.   Extra credit - the Democratic Party gets to actually fuck up your life. When you vote for it.
                  You think the only reason that people won't vote for a warmongering Third Way fracking-enabling cluster bomb throwing H-1B increasing lying pandering corporate and Wall Street shill who says she has no problem putting abortion rights on the table is because we are mad about Bernie?  Um, nope.
                • id-entity (2750 posts)

                  30. On more positive note

                  at least the handle is honest about the content.

                  Disclaimer: You are free to reproduce, distribute, interpret, misinterpret, distort, garble, do what you like, even claim authorship, without my consent or the permission of anybody.
                • Major Hogwash (4976 posts)
                  Donor

                  69. I'm not selling anything.

                  And the only one insulted here is on a crying jag over Mueller doing his fucking job!!

                   

                  Trump moya marionetka ~ Putin  
        • Pacco Fransisco (4934 posts)
          Moderator

          49. When they use names like FancyBear I know they are liars.

          No 3l33t3 h@x0r group would ever use a name that indicates where they are from. This is the work of US spooks.

          I am L0oniX  Fuck David and his pin head DLC 3rd way herd of goats
    • Silver Witch (7057 posts)
      Donor

      2. I am with you 100% SadOldGirl.

      We have seen and lived through much worse than Trump. Sadly the Dems think the only way they can win is to paint Trump hate everywhere

      tep was not my choice he is however the President.

      Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost~John Quincy Adams  
      • sadoldgirl (3002 posts)
        Donor

        4. Thank you, I just think we might lose our compass.

        • Silver Witch (7057 posts)
          Donor

          8. My compass has become very clear in the last few years.

          Real progressives know and see.

          Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost~John Quincy Adams  
    • FloridaProg (683 posts)

      6. I don't like the a-hole either.

      But I do see the end game, and the ones who will gain the most from this will be third-way Democrats. Looking at this through the lens of desiring more progressive leadership, this is a set back. The Dem leadership will put the brakes on any Sanders hope of gaining the nomination, they know he’s going to be dead in less than 10 years, and there really isn’t anyone in the wings to pick up the mantle that’s not already in their crosshairs.

      It’s going to take a third party emerging which, as events are unfolding, will become much less likely. I share your frustrations, howbeit for somewhat different reasons.

      You're either a FDR style progressive or you're a Democrat, but you can't be both. Decide or get out of the kitchen!!
      • Coldmountaintrail (9409 posts)
        Donor

        9. "he’s going to be dead in less than 10 years"

        I doubt it, and I doubt anyone ‘knows’ how long sanders is going to live.  he’s 76 now.  you have him dead before he’s 86.

        Actually, the *average* life expectancy for a man who is *already* 76 is 10.6 additional years, and that’s the *average*.

        Bernie ain’t average.  He runs across airports.

        https://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/longevity.cgi

         

      • sadoldgirl (3002 posts)
        Donor

        10. Sorry, I cannot judge Florida, but what I have heard about the Dems there

        is almost devastating. My heartfelt condolences!

        • FloridaProg (683 posts)

          12. All is well.

          I demexited a while ago and I’m not looking back.

          You're either a FDR style progressive or you're a Democrat, but you can't be both. Decide or get out of the kitchen!!
    • Iwillnevergiveup (1058 posts)

      16. Nothing to feel sorry for, sadoldgirl

      Millions agree with you (WORLDWIDE), only maybe don’t think, speak or write your most eloquent words.  You’re an alertoldgirl.

      We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.     Native American Proverb
    • Idaho progressive (200 posts)
      Donor

      18. I have to agree with what you said

      I’ve been here since the beginning, I don’t post a lot as i’m away from home 4 months at a whack. We have a group of people here in Idaho that get together every Tuesday and my wife and I are the more radical people there. My wife was DSA for a long time in San Diego and tried to move the local dems here in Idaho to the left…. I believe I’ve gotten one person to sign up here from our group, but man sometimes i just want to fucking scream at them “ARE YOU NOT FUCKING PAYING ATTENTION?” all the things you said we have been trying to get thru to these people but I still get “Well if you didn’t vote for Hillary you just voted for Trump” I keep going but I tell you the 4 months at sea helps a lot. Try to get thru to people that every President since FDR with the exception of maybe Carter has been part of the problem. I feel your pain. Thanks for the piece.

    • Xyzse (4479 posts)
      Donor

      21. I agree. Which is why when I was commenting on the fraudster, I keep lamenting

      that all this energy has not been used for other much needed investigations.

      Like those that crashed the economy, not to mention those that lost trillions in auditing in the Pentagon.

      And yes, this whole thing I still think is a distraction.

    • davidthegnome (3282 posts)
      Donor

      23. Honestly…

      There are a lot of high ranking officials promoting Russiagate who should be in prison themselves.  Brennan, who approved the torture of prisoners, Mueller, who lied about WMDs in Iraq.  Clinton… need I say more?

      The real conspiracy that should concern progressives is not some Russian attack – but the way the DNC and the Clinton campaign rigged the primaries.  They have gotten away with it.  Which should come as no surprise, given that others have gotten away with torture, mass murder (think Blackwater mercenaries), indefinite detention without charge… lying, stealing, hell, you name it.

      I’m not worried about Russia attacking us, I am worried about far more dangerous people – criminals – that in America we call “intelligence officials” “Secretary of State”, “Mr President” and so on.  I certainly am not referring only to the Trump administration there.

      At first I was more angry.  Now I am mostly resigned.  The Russiagate narrative has won the debate both in media and among most of the public.  We’ve got some really intelligent people who, for some reason, are ready to kiss some serious CIA and FBI ass.  Nevermind their corruption, their crimes, lies, greed… If they are going after Trump, they are suddenly ok or something.

      Even assuming Trump is impeached – which is rather far fetched considering what Bush got away with… it is a stretch to think he will actually face criminal charges.

      We will get Pence for President, to be replaced in 2020 by whatever neoliberal piece of shit the dems, the DNC, the super (dickwads) delegates and the oligarchs cram down our throats.

      Getting rid of Trump alone solves nothing.  We need to dismantle and rebuild the system that enabled him.

      “There is no distinctly native American criminal class save Congress.” - Mark Twain
      • Illegal Smile (607 posts)

        25. Primary rigging is one of the things Russia! is meant to obscure

        This has been an amazingly revealing couple of years since the primaries, it’s like the lizard aliens are finally shedding their human disguises and there are far more of them than most of us thought.

      • Xyzse (4479 posts)
        Donor

        52. Absolutely agreed.

    • 3FingerBrown (1326 posts)

      24. I agree with you Sadoldgirl.

      George W Bush and Barack Obama would have been hung for their war crimes if the Nuremberg standards were applied to them, yet there they are, laughing, hugging, hanging out, and making millions with not a care in the world! Why? Because the intelligence services loved them, the war profiteers loved them, and the Beltway media protected them, but Trump is a loudmouth embarrassment to their precious illusions of some sort of American dignified greatness to the rest of the world. Notice how almost none of his Big Media critics talk about his actual policies hurting the 99%, it’s all Treason, America’s reputation, presidential decorum, etc. In the eyes of the elites in Washington Trump is white trash who doesn’t abide by their rules. All these Trump hair-on-fire liberals should just heed the soon to be on Mt. Rushmore Greatest Ever President Barack Obama’s advice, to look forward, not backward, and just vote this monstrosity out in 2020!  Thanks for your post.

      • MistaP (10874 posts)
        Donor

        86. Clapper, Brennan, GWB, Negroponte, Wolfowitz, Kristol, Kagan, Armitage,

        Eliot Cohen, Max Boot–this is just the neocons taking over another party (one that many of them started out in)

        the Clinton campaign created Trump with the Pied Piper strategy (Third Way = Bell Curve)
    • Elizabeth (55 posts)

      26. No Republican will ever vote for the impeachment of Trump.


      The Democrats don’t have enough votes to do it on their own.  Until they do, it’s just a lot of hot air calling for it.

      Demexited since 2016
    • djean111 (7958 posts)
      Donor

      27. I agree with you 1000%. Thank you.

      This is all just in service, wittingly or unwittingly, to the Third Way, IMO.    This is all this is about – electing DINOs, as if they were even .1% better.  As if Obama and Hillary were not fucking awash with blood and ruined earth and inflicted poverty, and as if just getting enough politicians with a “D” after their name is going to change one fucking thing.

      The good news is, for those who mock people who do not post on message boards – posting on message boards changes fuck-all.  There is not one person on this board who is capable of convincing me to vote for a DINO because TRUMP!!!!!!!   But now the little envoys for just that are climbing out of their shells like tiny baby crocs, and scattering over the internet – Blue Wave!  Trump! Russia!!!!  Dems good!  Trump bad!!!!!  Impeachment!!!  Sweeties, Pelosi said it is off the table, and off the table it is.  Democrats will vote against impeachment if that is what it takes.  They don’t want a precedent, and anyway, look how useful Trump is.  Democrats***  can run on absolutely no other issues at all, and run as if Democrats****  don’t kill and bomb and despoil, not even on principle – but for MONEY.

      I guess, really, for me, it looks like what we call DINOs, but maybe they have taken over the Democratic Party***, and thus the meaning of “Democrat” has changed – now it is just a logo, a brand name, stands for fuck all – they don’t even revel in austerity-dealing, death-dealing, despoiling of the earth for twisted principle – they do it just for the money.  It was Obama and Hillary who worked in secret on the TPP and TISA.  Bad for people and the earth, good for corporations.  THAT is what is greasily lapping at the gates, folks, not any real angst about what Trump is doing.  The Democrats*** stand with Israel and Saudi Arabia.  They just want to be back in power.  or just maybe Hillary has a plan to siphon off all the money from the next two campaign seasons, too.   Suckers.

      I didn’t notice much of an outcry when Obama openly endorsed Macron in the French election, and it was known that the CIA set up a little group to monitor (heh, as if that was all, IMO) every candidate in that election.  Fucking hypocrites.   Wasn’t it interfering with other countries when Obama went to London and openly advocated against the Brexit?  Where the fuck was all the outrage then?  How about when the US installed Yeltsin?  FFS!

      I nominate your OP for the Daily Radical.  It is true.  And the comments are revealing.  

      • *Obligatory disclaimer - when I say "Democratic Party" I mean the DNC - the Clintons and the un-elected people and the consultants and the lobbyists and the corporations who actually run things.  The people who work and vote and are registered as "D" are no more the actual party than Trekkies are Star Trek.   Extra credit - the Democratic Party gets to actually fuck up your life. When you vote for it.
      You think the only reason that people won't vote for a warmongering Third Way fracking-enabling cluster bomb throwing H-1B increasing lying pandering corporate and Wall Street shill who says she has no problem putting abortion rights on the table is because we are mad about Bernie?  Um, nope.
      • id-entity (2750 posts)

        31. Changed when?

        It’s same as 68. A fascist pro-war party.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Democratic_National_Convention

        Disclaimer: You are free to reproduce, distribute, interpret, misinterpret, distort, garble, do what you like, even claim authorship, without my consent or the permission of anybody.
        • djean111 (7958 posts)
          Donor

          32. Yes, you are absolutely correct. There has not been a Party about "ideals"

          for a long long time, and the party platform is about as hypocritical and cynical (when you look at what actually happens) as a document can get.

          • *Obligatory disclaimer - when I say "Democratic Party" I mean the DNC - the Clintons and the un-elected people and the consultants and the lobbyists and the corporations who actually run things.  The people who work and vote and are registered as "D" are no more the actual party than Trekkies are Star Trek.   Extra credit - the Democratic Party gets to actually fuck up your life. When you vote for it.
          You think the only reason that people won't vote for a warmongering Third Way fracking-enabling cluster bomb throwing H-1B increasing lying pandering corporate and Wall Street shill who says she has no problem putting abortion rights on the table is because we are mad about Bernie?  Um, nope.
      • 3FingerBrown (1326 posts)

        89. This is so obvious to most on this site,

        but it still amazes me that some refuse to look at what democrats actually DO, and seem satisfied with what democrats say they are going to do, which is pretty much ‘were not them”, vote us!

    • Marym625 (30742 posts)
      Founder

      33. Agree with most of this

      But he has a ton of blood on his hands. And that is a major issue

      I don’t see what you’re seeing. Though there may be a few, on a whole, I believe we’re pretty honest about the war crimes and financial crimes of previous administrations. None of the last 5 Presidents should have remained in office. Nor should this one.

      I have no problem with impeachment calls as long as it’s based in some reality. Let’s remember the only impeachment in recent history caused no change. But it will be remembered in history.

      Take Action #StopFCC https://www.battleforthenet.com/breaktheinternet/ "Once the decision was made to go into Iraq as an invader and occupier,  it’s like our nation lost its conscience. And it has not yet gotten that conscience back." Madfloridian  
      • Illegal Smile (607 posts)

        41. I had a poster tell me just a little while ago "the media did their job"

        Talking about the 2016 election.

        While I agree that the media “did their job” in the sense that they did what those who sign the checks wanted the poster was trying to get me to believe that the media in fact was unbiased and objective in 2016.

        • Marym625 (30742 posts)
          Founder

          99. Oh! Interesting

          I agree with you. Maybe that’s what they meant?

          Take Action #StopFCC https://www.battleforthenet.com/breaktheinternet/ "Once the decision was made to go into Iraq as an invader and occupier,  it’s like our nation lost its conscience. And it has not yet gotten that conscience back." Madfloridian  
    • Marym625 (30742 posts)
      Founder

      34. On The Daily Radical

      You have my thoughts in my other reply.

      I’ll add that everyone needs to remember, impeachment does not remove someone from office. Point in fact, Bill Clinton

      Take Action #StopFCC https://www.battleforthenet.com/breaktheinternet/ "Once the decision was made to go into Iraq as an invader and occupier,  it’s like our nation lost its conscience. And it has not yet gotten that conscience back." Madfloridian  
      • Major Hogwash (4976 posts)
        Donor

        64. Bubba was not successfully impeached, i.e. removed from office.

        Impeachment means to charge an official with committing a crime.
        Ken Starr was able to convince the House of Representatives to charge Bubba.
        However, Ken Starr was not able to prove to the members of the Senate that Bubba had committed a crime.
        So, Bubba was not removed from office.
        That was because the evidence for impeachment was as thin as a wet newspaper.
        There is much more evidence for impeaching Trump.
        Tons more.

         

        Trump moya marionetka ~ Putin  
        • Marym625 (30742 posts)
          Founder

          100. That's what I said

          He was impeached. He was not removed. Impeachment and removal are two different things

          Take Action #StopFCC https://www.battleforthenet.com/breaktheinternet/ "Once the decision was made to go into Iraq as an invader and occupier,  it’s like our nation lost its conscience. And it has not yet gotten that conscience back." Madfloridian  
    • peacecorps (6286 posts)
      Donor

      35. Whataboutism. ‘Sure he’s a criminal but it would be UNFAIR to go after

      him while other criminals are still free’.

      That sounds like a defense strategy that Giuliani or Cohen might come up with.

    • ctsnowman (1228 posts)
      Donor

      36. Agreed

      We are going after Trump for jay walking while murders are held up as patriots. Trump is much better the Bush and I see Bush being whitewashed here and elsewhere because he doesn’t like Trump.

      Army and Navy veteran and a proud liberal.
      • djean111 (7958 posts)
        Donor

        38. Sickening, isn't it.

        • *Obligatory disclaimer - when I say "Democratic Party" I mean the DNC - the Clintons and the un-elected people and the consultants and the lobbyists and the corporations who actually run things.  The people who work and vote and are registered as "D" are no more the actual party than Trekkies are Star Trek.   Extra credit - the Democratic Party gets to actually fuck up your life. When you vote for it.
        You think the only reason that people won't vote for a warmongering Third Way fracking-enabling cluster bomb throwing H-1B increasing lying pandering corporate and Wall Street shill who says she has no problem putting abortion rights on the table is because we are mad about Bernie?  Um, nope.
        • ctsnowman (1228 posts)
          Donor

          40. Yup

          When Trump costs us trillions of dollars murdering 300000+ people then he’d be in Bush’s league.

          Army and Navy veteran and a proud liberal.
      • id-entity (2750 posts)

        42. In the Republican primaries

        Trump destroyed Bush mafia family war crime legacy the way “lefties” can only dream of. It is impossible because Clinton mafia and Obama are in the same war crime boat with Bushes.

        https://www.democracynow.org/2016/2/15/the_war_in_iraq_was_a

        Disclaimer: You are free to reproduce, distribute, interpret, misinterpret, distort, garble, do what you like, even claim authorship, without my consent or the permission of anybody.
    • incognito (2645 posts)
      Donor

      39. Yemen. Don't forget we fund that massacre and just murdered

      50 children on a bus.

      I agree with everything you posted. We can never forget Pence is even worse and Obama and GW were! Obama was the first president ever to put Social Security and Medicare on the table as a bargaining chip. He pulled off all his diabolical shit with a charming smile on his face. He’s particularly evil, IMCPO, because he knew exactly what he was doing.

      I don’t recall anyone here or on SV calling for his impeachment. Repubs did, non-stop, but not Progressives or Liberals.

      Great Post!

       

      • MistaP (10874 posts)
        Donor

        87. according to Russiagate logic, liberals should've joined birtherism

        since that might’ve produced something that’d take Obama down

        the Clinton campaign created Trump with the Pied Piper strategy (Third Way = Bell Curve)
        • incognito (2645 posts)
          Donor

          90. Agree.

          It’s all the same difference. This Russia bullshit is tiring and worn out. Just as Benghazi! and birtherism was. All of it was made-up bullshit for political theater. Personally, I’m sick of it.

           

          • id-entity (2750 posts)

            112. There was some beef to Benghazi

            (the private server issue) but as usual the biggest crime there was the cover-up by the culprit with major assistance from DOJ and FBI.

            Disclaimer: You are free to reproduce, distribute, interpret, misinterpret, distort, garble, do what you like, even claim authorship, without my consent or the permission of anybody.
    • gordyfl (568 posts)

      44. My Voter ID Card says I'm a Democrat

      but I see Democrats praise Bush, admire John McCain, defend Clapper and hold John Brennan in high esteem.

      I ask myself “Am I really a Democrat?”

       

       

    • BillZBubb (4045 posts)
      Donor

      45. Add me to those in agreement.

      I want to take down Trump on his issues and policies because that takes down the whole republican worldview.

      Getting rid of Trump via judicial means makes the progressive situation much worse, not better. To me it is the intellectual equivalent of nominating Her Majesty to run against Trump. This path shows NO ability to strategize politically–it’s just what feels good at the moment.

      DemExit! Don't give the Democrats a dime. Don't identify as a Democrat. Drop Democratic identification below 20%. Only then will they support true progressive policy. Until then, corporate money rules.
    • Pam (2145 posts)
      Donor

      46. I think ..

      ..about 90 percent of the people here agree with you. Only a few have succumbed to Trump Derangement Syndrome.

       

    • Earth artist (1146 posts)
      Donor

      54. So well said!

      can I copy it?

    • 99Forever (4805 posts)
      Moderator Emeritus

      55. Be "furious" with me all you please.

      I’ll keep on supporting the pursuit of justice that has now started laying out in public just how fucking corrupt this administration in general and tRump in particular are. You may give serious felonies a fucking pass.

      I don’t.

      • Major Hogwash (4976 posts)
        Donor

        62. It is really wierd.

        From my experience, playing the victim does not win people over most of the time.
        After 2 years of snark, and condescending tone of posts, I am not all that surprised to see this kind of post these days.
        It doesn’t seem to sink in that reality is actually quite different from some people’s perspectives here.

        Trump moya marionetka ~ Putin  
        • Illegal Smile (607 posts)

          66. I don't see much in the OP that's different from how I recall things

          What do you disagree with specifically?

        • 99Forever (4805 posts)
          Moderator Emeritus

          67. It blows my mind.

          8 Guilty Convictions for Don the Dumpster Fire’s CAMPAIGN CHAIRMAN

          8 Guilty Pleas from Don the Dumpster Fire’s PERSONAL ATTORNEY, including a direct confession that he was ORDERED by Don the Dumpster Fire himself, to commit Federal FELONIES, and people calling themselves “progressives” still are defending this shit?

          Seriously? WTF? 

          • Illegal Smile (607 posts)

            74. Hey, Herself wanted Trump to run

            Who  am I to argue with a seasoned political operative like that?

            Clearly someone with Herself’s vast experience and sterling reputation for integrity would consider what might happen if she should happen to lose and would not promote an unqualified candidate to the Presidency.  I mean imagine the potential damage to the nation if an unqualified candidate should win the election.

             

             

          • MistaP (10874 posts)
            Donor

            88. neither of which has anything to do with Russia colluding with the Trump

            campaign to influence the election

            the Clinton campaign created Trump with the Pied Piper strategy (Third Way = Bell Curve)
            • incognito (2645 posts)
              Donor

              91. Which is what spurred

              the investigation to begin with. Now look where we are. Down the rabbit hole with zero proof Donald has done anything impeachable while in office.

               

              • MistaP (10874 posts)
                Donor

                92. for a while now they seem to be taing the tack that "it's not ABOUT

                investigating Russia collusion in the election!” (unless sometimes it is, it’s hard to keep track)

                the Clinton campaign created Trump with the Pied Piper strategy (Third Way = Bell Curve)
                • Major Hogwash (4976 posts)
                  Donor

                  102. Is Mueller's investigation over already?

                  Patience is a virtue.

                  Trump moya marionetka ~ Putin  
                  • MistaP (10874 posts)
                    Donor

                    103. Mueller was floored when some Russians accepted his indictment and prepared

                    for defense: he’s stayed quite far from Assange or Fusion GPS

                    how much longer do we have to wait for Mueller’s promised Iraqi WMDs?

                    the Clinton campaign created Trump with the Pied Piper strategy (Third Way = Bell Curve)
                    • Major Hogwash (4976 posts)
                      Donor

                      105. No, he wasn't.

                      He simply put off that trial until later.
                      He doesn’t need Assange, which I’ve told you about a half of a dozen times here at JPR already why.

                      Trump moya marionetka ~ Putin  
                      • MistaP (10874 posts)
                        Donor

                        106. yeah, "Mueller doesn't need Assange because he doesn't need Assange"

                        real clincher of an argument there

                        and “Craig Murray is FUCKING BRITISH”–I mean Lyndon LaRouche might find that interesting, but it doesn’t apply to the provenance of the DNCleaks

                        the Clinton campaign created Trump with the Pied Piper strategy (Third Way = Bell Curve)
                      • Major Hogwash (4976 posts)
                        Donor

                        129. Assange won't give up his source. That's the bottom line.

                        Besides that, he doesn’t even live here.
                        What is Mueller supposed to do, take his deposition over the phone?

                        I didn’t even mention Craig Murray, but since you did . . . MI6 knew he was compromised years ago.
                        And they shared that information with the CIA.
                        And that is why the CIA stayed away from believing anything Murray had to say about the issue.

                         

                        Trump moya marionetka ~ Putin  
          • bemildred (10038 posts)
            Donor

            114. Annoying text modifications do not improve on your lack of an argument.

            We all know Trump is a crook, they are pretty much all crooks in DC.

            It ain't the things you don't know that hurts you, it's the things you know that ain't so.
            • 99Forever (4805 posts)
              Moderator Emeritus

              117. Ignoring what was said isn't "a lack of argument."

              It’s YOU with fucking tRumpian blinders on. The truth might annoy YOU, but that’s just too damn bad.

              • bemildred (10038 posts)
                Donor

                118. I'm ignoring it because of the annoying text.

                If you want people to read it, you should make it readable, no funny colors of arbitrary font shifts intended to make drivel look impressive.

                It ain't the things you don't know that hurts you, it's the things you know that ain't so.
                • 99Forever (4805 posts)
                  Moderator Emeritus

                  119. I'll make you a deal.

                  You don’t tell me how or what to post and I won’t you.

                  Is that okay with you?

                  • bemildred (10038 posts)
                    Donor

                    128. Yeah, I'm done.

                    .

                    It ain't the things you don't know that hurts you, it's the things you know that ain't so.
                    • 99Forever (4805 posts)
                      Moderator Emeritus

                      131. Great.

                      That makes two of us. Unless you have some more personal bullshit you want to fling.

                      • bemildred (10038 posts)
                        Donor

                        133. I thought you were not going to tell me what to post any more.

                        You keep deals like Trump keeps deals.

                        It ain't the things you don't know that hurts you, it's the things you know that ain't so.
                      • 99Forever (4805 posts)
                        Moderator Emeritus

                        134. ?????????????????????????????????????????????????

          • id-entity (2750 posts)

            120. There's nothing progressive

            in brown tonguing evil warcriminals torturers and mass murderers Brennan, Mueller, Clinton etc. in their RussiaRussia!!! cover up of DNC stealing the election from Sanders, in their cover up conspiracy of the content of Wikileak revelations.

            Seriously WTF how can any brown tongue of Brennan consider him-/herself progressive anything, while being all covered up in filthy brown shirt.

            Disclaimer: You are free to reproduce, distribute, interpret, misinterpret, distort, garble, do what you like, even claim authorship, without my consent or the permission of anybody.
            • 99Forever (4805 posts)
              Moderator Emeritus

              121. You don't get to define what is or isn't progressive.

              Period.

              • id-entity (2750 posts)

                122. Yes I do, and no you dont, you brown shirt.

                Disclaimer: You are free to reproduce, distribute, interpret, misinterpret, distort, garble, do what you like, even claim authorship, without my consent or the permission of anybody.
                • 99Forever (4805 posts)
                  Moderator Emeritus

                  126. Isn't that special?

                  You lose.

                  • id-entity (2750 posts)

                    127. I generally

                    support peer society and consider all people my peers, but I make exception with fascists, who I don’t tolerate as my peers. And anyone who supports Brennan, Mueller and their ilk is a fascist in my book.

                    I stand with Assange, Wikileaks and speaking truth to power and hold in contempt Brennan, Mueller, etc. evil cabal of torturers, assassins and warcriminals and all their supporters.

                    My only win is win-win, but if you and your fascist pals win, we all lose.

                    Disclaimer: You are free to reproduce, distribute, interpret, misinterpret, distort, garble, do what you like, even claim authorship, without my consent or the permission of anybody.
          • ravensong (2809 posts)
            Donor

            132. Trump has escalated the bombing of Afghanistan at a record pace,

            making Obama look like a pacifist Cub Scout, but you won’t ever see the “people calling themselves progressives” say a negative word about it.

            In fact, I can’t remember the last time “people calling themselves progressives” brought up a single negative issue about Trump, or Republicans.  They often say “Trump is an asshole, but” as a qualifiers when defending him, but they never post anything negative about Trump, or Republicans.

            It’s disturbing.

            "Together, together, my friends, we have begun a political revolution to transform America, and that revolution, our revolution, continues!" ~ 
            • 99Forever (4805 posts)
              Moderator Emeritus

              135. Indeed.

              Guess being a tRump defender is the new norm around here. How far this place has fallen.

               

              Not good.

              • ravensong (2809 posts)
                Donor

                136. Fucking world is burning while Trump is deregulating everything

                but gotta leave poor Donnie alone.

                "Together, together, my friends, we have begun a political revolution to transform America, and that revolution, our revolution, continues!" ~ 
                • 99Forever (4805 posts)
                  Moderator Emeritus

                  137. Yeah… but… but… HILLARY!1!!11

                  Ermagerd

            • FloridaProg (683 posts)

              143. Actually it's very easy to understand.

              There’s no reason to harp away on something of which everyone on this board is in agreement. I know who the Republicans are and who Trump is because they don’t try and hide it. The Democrats pretend to be one thing, but are nothing like that at all. That’s more dangerous.

              You see, I don’t care about the person who says “I’m going to take this baseball bat and beat you in the head until you die,” I care about the one who claims to be my friend but says “Hey, we’d love for you to play on our city league softball team! Come over here and I’ll give you some pointers on how to swing the bat” and then proceeds to beat you to death with a baseball bat.

              So I for one am not going to post about a variety of things everyone here already knows.

              What we’ve got are a bunch of people who left SV, but they never really left. What is SV? SV is a place where you go to the DNC website, find out what the party leaders think on the issues, and then parrot them. There is no thought beyond that. Just parrot you stupid little birdy. So I’ll leave the “Russia! Russia!” and “Trump! Trump!” to the parrots. Russia and Trump can be found at mindless drone sites like the DNC, SV, and DailyKos. It can now be found here.

              You're either a FDR style progressive or you're a Democrat, but you can't be both. Decide or get out of the kitchen!!
    • Betty Karlson (5291 posts)
      Donor

      65. Completely agree with you.

      Geese of both genders should receive the same culinary finish.

      "Someone hacks the DNC allowing all of America to see how the DNC operates as one of the most corrupt political machines in national history. Ergo, Hillary Clinton should be installed as President by judicial fiat. And if you do not agree to this scheme you deserve to be brought up on charges of treason because fascism." - NUGrrl, december 2016 “Once a person has been determined to be an UNTRUSTWORTHY LIAR, their pretend stances on important issues are simply not relevant to rational discussion.” – Ida Briggs, September 2016
    • RufusTFirefly (4528 posts)
      Mr. Jenkins

      68. Nearly everyone in power is compromised in one way or another

      The decision to punish or not is usually a political one. Some politicians literally get away with murder and are left unpunished, while others who commit minor offenses (and sometimes even fabricated ones) are hounded out of office, thrown into prison, or worse.

      Russ Baker’s provocative book, Family of Secrets, although primarily about the Bushes, suggests that Watergate was a setup to get Nixon out of office. Make no mistake: Baker is no fan of Nixon, but he argues that Tricky Dick was forced to resign, not because he was a ruthless, paranoid racist warmonger, but because he ran afoul of the East Coast establishment.

      More recent examples include Eliot Spitzer and former Baltimore Mayor Sheila Dixon, both of whom made the mistake of tangling with the financial industry.

      • Xyzse (4479 posts)
        Donor

        70. Agreed, and that's why I see this mostly as a political ploy.

        However, here’s where I draw my positives:

        • They went after banking fraud.  I want to see retaliation.
        • If they decide to go trying to impeach on campaign financing, I want even greater retaliation.

        I doubt it, but I would enjoy seeing both Democrats and Republicans implode by going after each other for campaign finance.

      • sadoldgirl (3002 posts)
        Donor

        71. Yes,I have thought for a long time that Nixon got too friendly with

        Russia and China, in a separate way, for the establishment.

        And Spitzer was a classic case of “getting rid of the enemy”.

        • RufusTFirefly (4528 posts)
          Mr. Jenkins

          72. As bizarre as it sounds, Nixon was arguably our last liberal president

          He created the Environmental Protection Agency, the Clean Air and Water Acts, the earned income tax credit, Equal Employment Opportunity Act, Endangered Species Act, and OSHA.

          Furthermore, he took us off the gold standard. If you are familiar with the Business Plot, when FDR seemed to be on the verge of doing the same thing, a group of Amerian elites conspired to overthrow him.

          • Fire with Fire (1709 posts)
            Donor

            73. That is the biggest irony of all

            I loathed Richard Nixon with every bone in my body. And I still hate his personality.

            But.

            There is some quibbling about the legislation signed by Nixon, like the EPA and OSHA — he did not “create” them. But he did not veto or fight against any of those very liberal programs. He also imposed wage and price controls and proposed a welfare bill that was not ideal, but far to the left of anything seriously considered before or since.

            Nixon’s opening of trade with the “reds” was the camel’s nose under the tent of revolutionary socialism, and it led to the end of the Cold War.

            Finally, Nixon frustrated the shit out of his political allies by going along with the premise of impeachment. Many Republicans of the day publicly urged him to “burn the tapes” — which would have been obstruction of justice. The assholes giving him that advice, like John Connally of JFK assassination fame, were balls out in saying that Nixon should protect “The Presidency” by taking whatever action necessary to stop the Watergate Investigation.

            For whatever reason, that wizened soul followed the Constitution and went home to San Clemente rather than behave like a 21st Century politician. Irony.

            • RufusTFirefly (4528 posts)
              Mr. Jenkins

              75. Yes.

              I must admit I struggled over the use of that verb. Upon reflection, I probably would’ve written “he presided over the creation of” instead of just “created.”

              Although this is decidedly OT, it makes one wonder to what extent a president is the product of his or her time. As one who doesn’t subscribe to the “great man” theory of history, I’d argue quite a bit.

              Keep in mind that FDR ran as a budget balancer and JFK emphasized the mythical “missile gap.” Both governed quite differently than they campaigned.

              • cascadiance (3784 posts)
                Donor

                79. It is probably also some of the last years of more liberal pols in congress too.

                I think that the Democratic Party formally DEVOLVED in to the neoliberal mess it is now when the Clinton gang along with other neoliberals set up the DLC with KOCH BROTHERS’ MONEY AND PEOPLE(!!!) that in effect took over the party when Bill got elected president.  We’ve been working with that mess of the party that has caused it to lose strength over the years with so many “compromises” that have been used to shut down progressive voices (or described as “liberal voices” at the time before Rush Limbaugh permanently made that term unusable today), that have now cost us the control of congress, the Supreme Court, and the presidency.  Americans that want real people representing congress need to find a way to realize this and not just only let themselves be told what to do by the corporate media propagandizing them, and get some real progressives elected in 2018.

                The key is getting a huge number in the House and take that back over.  If we can also get enough in the House so that perhaps we could even throw out Nancy Pelosi (assuming she beats that Republican in the Jungle Primary election she has now), as speaker of the House, and third in line for the presidency then.  That is the key to taking power back in 2019, if we don’t feel we can wait to start flexing muscles until after the 2020 presidential/congressional elections then. 2020 is also a census year, so it would help to make sure that we have good progressive control in all of the state houses before then, so that we can get districts not aligned to keep us from taking more control back too.  Even if Bernie isn’t the president then, we need him to continue this revolution and SHUT DOWN the criminal conspiracy of the neoliberal Democrats that have in effect destroyed this country along with the Republicans that they are more aligned with now on the big fa$ci$t corporatocracy serving issues than the people of this country.

                One thing we should do now to push the Democrats to destroying the big election money game that is going on now that was validated by Citizens United, is to destroy the legal foundations that court cases like Citizen’s United that and other similar court cases that have a basis in using “corporate personhood” for their decisions.  What we should be pushing senators on the Justice Committee to do is to have them corner Brett Kavanaugh, is to get him to acknowledge that he wants to shut down Roe v. Wade because he feels that the Supreme Court making it’s own law that he claims was done there was the problem and should not be allowed.  If you could corner him to saying that, then subsequently corner him by saying that shouldn’t the head note court case of Santa Clara County vs Southern Pacific Railroad should also be dismissed because in effect the court clerk was given the ability without going through congress or even the supreme court justices themselves to establish a court precedent of corporations having the “rights” of corporate personhood from that case, instead of voted on law that went through normal channels of congress and congressional approval, or even the Supreme Court justices themselves rather than the court clerk to arrive at any claim of such “rights”.  That would corner him so that he would be exposed as the ultimate hypocrite, or risk alienating his party and the corporate owned Democrats that might otherwise be persuaded to vote for him, by jeopardizing the corporate money pipeline to all of our corporate owned pols if he were to follow through and join with the liberals on the Supreme Court to shut down Corporate personhood in a court decision to be consistent with what he says under questioning.  All we need is one good Democratic senator asking him this line of questions to push this out to the public!

                Vote AGAINST the race to the bottom by both corporate parties who seek to screw workers over globally!                                                                                  
            • incognito (2645 posts)
              Donor

              101. Nixon is also responsible for destroying our Healthcare system.

              Until 1973, it was illegal to profit off of healthcare. Nixon ended that and gave us the awful, horrible HMOs we suffer with today.

              http://www.investmentwatchblog.com/did-you-know-that-before-1973-it-was-illegal-in-the-us-to-profit-off-of-health-care-the-health-maintenance-organization-act-of-1973-passed-by-nixon-changed-everything/

               

              • RufusTFirefly (4528 posts)
                Mr. Jenkins

                123. Thx!

                I knew he was cozy with Kaiser, but I was unaware of the specifics. I’d love to see the roll call vote for that.

                UPON EDIT: The bill’s sponsor was Ted Kennedy. It was passed by the Senate 69-25 and by the House 369-40.

          • id-entity (2750 posts)
            Disclaimer: You are free to reproduce, distribute, interpret, misinterpret, distort, garble, do what you like, even claim authorship, without my consent or the permission of anybody.
        • MistaP (10874 posts)
          Donor

          83. note that EVERY president eventually becomes pro-detente with Russia

          and is condemned as too friendly

          Harding and Coolidge sent famine aid to revolutionary Russia (even if reluctantly), Hoover oversaw that aid and created proto-New Deal programs, FDR was the center of CTs about selling all Western Europe to Stalin at Yalta, Truman ripped off Henry Wallace and didn’t let MacArthur nuke his way into Tuva, JFK was a Catho-Commie as Paul Blanshard warned us, LBJ was letting the Red Chinese mass on our Mexican border and giving money to the Black Panthers, Nixon of course pissed off the Russia hawks as we’ve discussed, Ford agreed with detente, Carter was practically a Red himself, Reagan didn’t think nuclear war was really survivable and was condemned as Gorbachev’s puppet by the far right by 1987, Bush was a secret-society spook who literally used the phrase “new world order,” Clinton was a draft dodger and surrounded by every conspiracy theory imaginable, Obama’s a communist foreigner infiltrated by shadowy forces into our highest office, Sanders is a socialist, and everyone else in the 2020s and 30s is gonna be attacked as a Russkie as well (unless they go along and launch the missiles)

          the one exception’s Dubya, and he was condemned as too soft on Islam (the temporary substitute)

          the Clinton campaign created Trump with the Pied Piper strategy (Third Way = Bell Curve)
      • bemildred (10038 posts)
        Donor

        77. I've seen that suggested a time or two before.

        I wouldn’t say I believe it, but it seems plausible, and I was present at the time. Our first unelected President came out of that drama, Jerry Ford. Appointed by his predecessor, whom he prompted pardoned. No Quid Pro Quo there right?

         

        It ain't the things you don't know that hurts you, it's the things you know that ain't so.
    • ravensong (2809 posts)
      Donor

      76. Your profound concern is noted.

      We are fighting Trump on the issues. Just like we fought the rest of them on the issues.  We roasted Bush, and Obama, and Clinton, at another site before we either got tombstoned, voluntarily left due to persecution of progressives, or just got sick of the Third Way bullshit.

      Complaining about past about past Presidents who sucked is moot, and doesn’t make them suck any more, or Trump suck any less.  Russiagate cannot divide genuine progressives from Republicans any more than we are already divided Republicans.  Progressives are the opposite of Republicans.

      I want them every single Republican gone from office, and every New Democrat gone from office, and replaced by genuine progressives.

      Trump is already only going to have one term, and I have no problem waiting until then.  If he is justly prosecuted for a genuine crime he committed, I have no problem with that either.

       

      "Together, together, my friends, we have begun a political revolution to transform America, and that revolution, our revolution, continues!" ~ 
    • Colors of the Rainbow (2298 posts)
      Donor

      78. I have decided

      The No. 1 enemy of true progressives is the corrupt, corporate Democratic Party Establishment.

       

      I live in Michigan. For me, personally, it will be easy for me to reject the Democratic Party in all races on the ballot in the general election on November 6, 2018.

      I am already looking as well to 2020.

       

    • Peace Patriot (4811 posts)
      Donor

      81. "Let us fight Trump and the Repug Congress on the issues"- Hear! Hear!

      That is the very thing that “Russiagate” is designed to prevent, because, guess what?  Trump/Repug tax cuts for Billionaires and massive deregulation and more trillions for the war profiteers benefit the big donors to BOTH political parties.

      As for Obama, he belongs in prison along with Bush, Cheney & Rumsfeld, et al, and Hillary Clinton for their war crimes alone (not to mention their mind-boggling corruption).

      I’m with you, sadoldgirl!  I’m a sadoldgirl myself.  I’m still furious at LBJ and Richard Nixon for slaughtering TWO MILLION PEOPLE in Southeast Asia and sending over 60,000 U.S. soldiers to their deaths.  I wish they were still around for Nuremberg Part Two.

       

    • MistaP (10874 posts)
      Donor

      82. my concern for the future is what the Dems/left will do with a basket of

      shattered eggs and a discourse full of Cold-War neocons–that’s a pretty heated mix of political blue balls and an all-encompassing conspiracy theory

      Russiagate was nothing more than a hodgepodge to 1. cover up the indictable Chappaqua server, 2. to use the FBI and FISA courts to dig up dirt on Trump (at the expense of anything else, and restricted to ties to one country), 3. to generate a new story to cover up the exposure of massive cheating against the will of the people (and the voter-roll interference), 4. Clinton’s unexpected loss (Mook, Brennan)

      so now Russiagate’s being justified as producing Stormygate instead: but Stormygate isn’t gonna sweep 2018 or start impeachment after the high claims of Russiagate

      it’s like how Comey’s testimony last year (simultaneously manipulative and jaw-droppingly damning) would’ve started impeachment noises–except we were promised a massive plot where it’d be proven that Trump met with the Russians to reveal Clinton-related emails and swing the vote: instead we get nothing but booby prizes

      remember Helsinki? all those shrieks of TREASON!!! look a tad silly already; impeachment now! is gonna be just another

      Trump wins when his opponents chase borzois

      the Clinton campaign created Trump with the Pied Piper strategy (Third Way = Bell Curve)
    • Captain Arizona (206 posts)

      84. no impeachment again!

      over at her cult they are comparing nancy pelosi with jesus for taking impeachment off the table. the “smart” play has got us where we are at! nowheresville! 60 dems running for house seats say they will not vote for pelosi. voters think democrats are gutless cowards and discredited corporate establishment stooges. look how pelosi treated ms. ocasio-cortez victory. I am tired of this bullish*t are you? I have let my primary candidates know I will not vote for establishment pelosi supporting corporate stooges no matter how much money the donors give them. some of these dinos are proud to tell me how much donor money they have gotten! I tell them I am voting for young mostly hispanic militants not old white farts establishment its my turn dinos on their ego trips.

      • cascadiance (3784 posts)
        Donor

        93. Hopefully in 2019 NEITHER Ryan or Pelosi will be third in line from impeachment!

        Impeaching now will likely just get us Paul Ryan as president.  Hopefully if we get enough progressives elected in 2018, we can find ways to push someone more progressive in the Speaker position than Pelosi to be third in line then!  If we can do that, THEN I think impeachment should be on the table heavily.  Pelosi probably wants to wait until she feels that SHE would be third in line if she’s speaker of the house in 2019.  So, it makes sense that she’s taking it off the table now, which is probably good to keep us from having Paul Ryan as president (Mr. Oscar Meyer!). But hopefully we can keep her from getting it too!

        Vote AGAINST the race to the bottom by both corporate parties who seek to screw workers over globally!                                                                                  
        • Captain Arizona (206 posts)

          96. no paul ryan as impeachment is not conviction in senate

          impeachment is a litmus test for corporate establishment dinos so we can primary them or vote green if that fails.

    • TRex (5575 posts)
      Donor

      97. You don't sound furious.

      Where you complaining at the top of your lungs in 1992?

      Oh sweety, no just no, when I or those of us here talk about the ultra rich - it is NOT you! Not you by a longshot, oh my God did you think...no way you actually thought we meant you? Lord, this country is full of rich stupid people and you seem to be one of the worst. No sweety, you are just a low paid pawn to those ultra rich we talk about. They are wrecking the world, you are an enabler and I understand not being able to sleep at night. I wouldn't either, selling out our future. You have kids right?  
      • sadoldgirl (3002 posts)
        Donor

        104. Nay, TREX, at that time I was still a bloody fool, although due to friends,

        who arrived here from the Eastern European border, I had learned to

        never trust the CIA ever, the MIC and  FBI suspicions came later. And

        the realization about the power of the corporations  came to me only

        after the crimes in Chile became obvious. Sorry, perhaps I am still not

        totally awake.

        • TRex (5575 posts)
          Donor

          108. It took me a while before I realized the DCCC and DNC are full of shit

          organizations and that the New Dem wave was just more free market garbage that started under Reagan. Never trust the CIA, I am convinced they had a hand in killing JFK and made sure LBJ ramped up the war in Vietnam.

          Oh sweety, no just no, when I or those of us here talk about the ultra rich - it is NOT you! Not you by a longshot, oh my God did you think...no way you actually thought we meant you? Lord, this country is full of rich stupid people and you seem to be one of the worst. No sweety, you are just a low paid pawn to those ultra rich we talk about. They are wrecking the world, you are an enabler and I understand not being able to sleep at night. I wouldn't either, selling out our future. You have kids right?  
    • madfloridian (2274 posts)
      Donor

      111. In no way are Obama and Trump comparable.

      Obama had some disappointing, even devastating, policies….especially when it came to public education and also drone warfare among others.

      He did NOT try to destroy our systems of checks and balances.  He did NOT appoint the most extremist policy makers and judges.   He was NOT into crime family mode.

      I have had many disappointments from the Democratic Party the last few years.  It’s obvious their loyalty is to the Third Way big money, and their policies show it.

      I was just reading about the scary number of appellate court judges that the Republicans have quietly put in place.   And as to the Surpreme Court, I think enough Democrats will happily vote for Cavanaugh to complete the court.

      There has never been a president like Trump.  He bloviates endlessly, he stirs up trouble…new trouble every day.  He ridicules, he lies, he brags….and the truth means nothing to him.

      I have already voted in our primaries here in Florida.   I do not care for Bill Nelson, but I will vote for him in the general because Rick Scott is out of the question for senator.   I am not that fond of Gwen Graham and her almost conservatism, but I voted for her in the primary because I have too many doubts about the Republican candidates for governor.  A Trump picked candidate just moved ahead of Adam Putnam.  He would be an unbelievably bad governor, while at least Putnam loves Florida because he’s a native here.  I think Gwen can hold her own with them.  I am not sure of some of the others. I would prefer someone like Gillum, but I do not believe people here would pick him over Putnam or Disantis.

      Trump has no class, he makes our country look bad to the world.  I don’t care if he’s impeached or not, but it hurts to say that Trump shouldn’t be impeached because we did not call for the impeachment of Obama.

      I expect few here to agree with me at all.  I have set one goal…I will vote for those whom I believe will put country over party and who put forth sensible policies.  I hope Bernie runs, but right now it is enough for me that he is still being an inspiration to the grassroots.

      I think it is harmful for our country to say that Obama was as bad as Trump.

      If a person is required to be loyal to a political party and not question their stands on issues, then any semblance of real truth is lost. https://twitter.com/madfloridian
      • Chop Chop (436 posts)

        141. Obomba was a fraud. A complete liar. A grinning buffoon. A detriment to society.

        He managed to destroy single payer to pay back his donors. A despicable man. I’m not a fan of Trump but Obomba might have been the worst president in US history. He also taught loads of children that grinning while lying was a great way to get what you want.

        And him sabotaging US health care – with a RIGHT WING HERITAGE FOUNDATION PLAN – was just one of his many tragedies. Despicable. A DESPICABLE MAN. The worst.

        Huffpost 5/16/18

        NY Times Reporter Confirms Obama Made Deal to Kill Public Option

        For months I’ve been reporting in The Huffington Post that President Obama made a backroom deal last summer with the for-profit hospital lobby that he would make sure there would be no national public option in the final health reform legislation. (See here, here and here). I’ve been increasingly frustrated that except for an initial story last August in the New York Times, no major media outlet has picked up this important story and investigated further.

        Hopefully, that’s changing. On Monday, Ed Shultz interviewed New York Times Washington reporter David Kirkpatrick on his MSNBC TV show, and Kirkpatrick confirmed the existence of the deal. Shultz quoted Chip Kahn, chief lobbyist for the for-profit hospital industry on Kahn’s confidence that the White House would honor the no public option deal, and Kirkpatrick responded:…more: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/miles-mogulescu/ny-times-reporter-confirm_b_500999.html

        He never thinks about the mess he made or the children he ordered killed. If only I never had to hear his name or see his ugly mug again.

        The Trojan Horse did figure out how to sucker millions and millions of people into believing his BS. So he’s good at that.

         Wasserstoff- Eine Nahezu Unbegrenzte Einwegelement und voller Energie
    • ozoneman (748 posts)
      Donor

      124. How the US, Under Obama, Created Europe’s Refugee Crisis

      Obama is a war criminal like Bush and Hillary. The MSM never discusses the fact that Obama created the refugee crisis, let alone facilitating ISIS to do their dirty work.

      ————-

      By Eric Zuesse
      Global Research, June 25, 2018

      The current US President, Donald Trump, claimed on June 18th, that Germany’s leadership, and the leadership in other EU nations, caused the refugee-crisis that Europe is facing:

      “The people of Germany are turning against their leadership as migration is rocking the already tenuous Berlin coalition. Crime in Germany is way up. Big mistake made all over Europe in allowing millions of people in who have so strongly and violently changed their culture!”
      The US Government is clearly lying about this. The US Government itself caused this crisis that Europeans are struggling to deal with. Would the crisis even exist, at all, if the US had not invaded and tried to overthrow (and in some instances actually overthrown) the governments in Libya, Syria, and elsewhere — the places from which these refugees are escaping?

      The US Government, and a few of its allies in Europe (the ones who actually therefore really do share in some of the authentic blame for this crisis) caused this war and government-overthrow, etc., but Germany’s Government wasn’t among them, nor were many of the others in Europe.

      If the US Government had not led these invasions, probably not even France would have participated in any of them. The US Government, alone, is responsible for having caused these refugees. The US Government itself created this enormous burden to Europe, and yet refuses to accept these refugees that it itself had produced, by its having invaded and bombed to overthrow (among others) Libya’s Government, and then Syria’s Government, and by its aiding Al Qaeda in organizing and leading and arming, jihadists from all over the world to come to Syria to overthrow Syria’s Government and to replace it with one that would be selected by the US regime’s key Middle Eastern ally, the Saud family, who own Saudi Arabia, including its Government, and who are determined to take over Syria.

      Trump blames Angela Merkel for — in essence — having been an ally of the US regime, a regime of aggression which goes back decades, and which Trump himself now is leading, instead of his ending, and of his restoring democracy to the United States, and, finally, thus, his restoring freedom (from America), and peace, to other nations, in Europe, and elsewhere (such as in Syria, Yemen, etc.). He blames Merkel, not himself and his predecessor — not the people who actually caused these refugees.

      Hypocrisy purer than that which Trump there expressed, cannot be imagined, and this hypocrisy comes from Trump now, no longer from Obama, who, in fact, caused the problem.

      (more at link)

      https://www.globalresearch.ca/how-the-us-under-obama-created-europes-refugee-crisis/5645304

    • tonyl (1071 posts)
      Donor

      139. I agree with your stance ..

      Whether or not Mr Trump is a ‘good’ president (you haven’t  had one for generations) is not relevant here. Its true, he has less blood on his hands than most of his predecessors. I regard his occupation of the Presidency as much like a lightening rod; if he were not there the world would have to put up with someone worse – that is, until Senator Sanders gets to show us what ONE good person can do (you have so few of them in your corridors of power).

      Because you cant have integrity occasionally
    • MrMickeysMom (2403 posts)
      Moderator

      144. Well, really, he is a bloody, tiny-handed little bugger after all…

      We are STILL selling weapons all over the world, where these deals, which never add one job making America “great”er are being used by our “friends”, the Saudis… It was all set up, and as each neoliberal or fascist steps into 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue soon realizes.

      But, I DO GET and agree with everything you said, sadoldgirl. Let’s start with where it started by letting this whole system come crashing down as it will surely do. After all… Trump is not the reason. Trump becomes the result of everything that we have allowed to happen.

      Hell no...I'm not giving up...     cat-gif-238.gif giphy.gif