Home Main Forums General Discussion I see an inherent problem among progressives. I will call it the “anti-herding”

  • ThomPaine (3045 posts)
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    I see an inherent problem among progressives. I will call it the “anti-herding”

    complex.

    Conservatives can be easily herded (controlled), and they get schtuff done. Not good schtuff.  Progressives, on the other hand, have great ideals and values, but they will argue among themselves (ourselves) about all kinds of schtuff.

    When the Third Way stole the primary, some progressives shook it off and vowed to march forward, while others wanted to fight about which way to go, who was to blame, and who to hate more. Some wanted to (some did) abandon the Democratic Party, and because of their passion and injury, labeled those that didn’t as apologists.  We need to stick together whether within the Party or without.

    These divisions among progressives are easily exploited by those that want to see progressivism die.

    How the frack can we expect the 99% with our Yuge differences in ideals, values, needs, etc., to get together and fight the 1% when the potential leaders, the progressives can’t get together among ourselves?

    It’s waaaay past time to get over who is to be hated the most, Clinton or Trump.

    It’s high time to get busy trying to save ourselves from both the neo-liberals and the fascists.  Who’s with me?   :hi:

    DesertRat2015, mother earth, libodem and 52 othersChiciB1, Fiendish Thingy, 2bAnon, Kermitt Gribble, disillusioned73, Baba OhReally, OrwellwasRight, NothingcleverjustRay, LWolf, OzoneTom, NikolaC, Utopian Leftist, whatchamacallit, Silver Witch, Odd John, Rider, Robert Thomas 85, Koko, A little weird, Tierra y Libertad, ravensong, Iwalani88, Enthusiast, spud demon, mmonk, cleverflamingo, azurnoir, Populist Prole, HubHeaver, Two way street, Xyzse, 99Forever, Haikugal, jwirr, Eggar, Land of Enchantment, Downwinder, shanti, PADemD, HeartoftheMidwest, goodgirl, vattel, Yanath, FugitiveBirdie, BlueAK, LiberalElite, farleftlib, whispers, Gregorian, liberal at heart, Live and Learn, Marym625 like this
    aka rhett o rick.     The rich treat us like ants. They may avoid stepping on us, but if our home is in the way of their new swimming pool, we can kiss our ants goodbye.

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    • Marym625 (16796 posts)
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      1. I'm with you! And you're on The Daily Radical!

      We can fight it, and discuss it all.

      There’s nothing good coming out of Congress that I’ve seen. Nothing I readily think of. It’s all to help the rich get richer and has been for a very long time

      948c8f248a Thank you DNC, Hillary Clinton, The Hillary Clinton Players, GOP, RNC and CrossCheck for Trump. Enjoy it while it lasts. The Revolution may not be televised but it's beginning. And we'll win
      • ThomPaine (3045 posts)
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        3. We need a campaign started to let the Republicans know that if they "brake it"

        we will kick there asses.  Maybe even more importantly, we need to tell the $%&#@% Democrats that sitting back and smuggly saying, “If you break it, you buy it”, isn’t going to cut it.  It’s their (Democrats) responsibility to prevent it from getting broke.

        aka rhett o rick.     The rich treat us like ants. They may avoid stepping on us, but if our home is in the way of their new swimming pool, we can kiss our ants goodbye.
        • Marym625 (16796 posts)
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          5. I think the dems had a great part in breaking it

          Sure did for this election.

          But they damn well better fight for the shit they pretend to care about

          948c8f248a Thank you DNC, Hillary Clinton, The Hillary Clinton Players, GOP, RNC and CrossCheck for Trump. Enjoy it while it lasts. The Revolution may not be televised but it's beginning. And we'll win
        • jwirr (2942 posts)
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          22. I do not always agree with Robert Reich but I read on one of his blogs that we

          should all get out our bumper stickers and put them back on our cars, in our windows and on our key chains. Flood this country with Bernie signs.

          With that I agree – our first step. My key chain is on my purse and my window sign is going back up. Don’t have a car so no bumper sticker.

          We do not have to join someone to take a good suggestion when we see it.

          • liberal at heart (1088 posts)
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            24. my Bernie Sanders and Jill Stein stickers are still on my car.

            I see dozens of cars that still have their Bernie stickers on them. So is my corporations are not people sticker. I need to find room on my car for a Medicare for All sticker. With my Buddha sticker that would make five stickers. I don’t want to take any stickers off but my husband would probably start to gripe if we started putting stickers all over the car.

            • jwirr (2942 posts)
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              29. I love your car just the way it is. We all need to do that. We are still feeling

              the bern.

              • liberal at heart (1088 posts)
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                34. Thank you jwirr. Yes, we are most definitely still feeling the Bern.

          • 99Forever (2307 posts)
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            30. My "Don't blame me, I voted for Bernie" t-shirt.

            … arrived Friday. I’ll wear it to work Monday. Bernie ’16 sign has never left my front window.

            99F

            • jwirr (2942 posts)
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              31. That is good – this is going to tell them that it is not business as usual – we

              are coming.

              • 99Forever (2307 posts)
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                32. We've never stopped.

                We’ve had to change tactics. We’ve never surrendered nor will we.

                99F

          • ThomPaine (3045 posts)
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            74. I never took mine off.

            aka rhett o rick.     The rich treat us like ants. They may avoid stepping on us, but if our home is in the way of their new swimming pool, we can kiss our ants goodbye.
          • Seshat (385 posts)
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            104. I never took mine off.

        • Silver Witch (4214 posts)
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          69. Mary likes you best!

          ::pouting::  Excellent post Thomas!   Herding progressives can be impossible. Each of us feels his or her policy concern is most important.

          You can only protect your liberties in this world by protecting the other man's freedom. You can only be free if I am free. ~ Clarence Darrow
          • ThomPaine (3045 posts)
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            71. I told her we have to be more discrete.

            aka rhett o rick.     The rich treat us like ants. They may avoid stepping on us, but if our home is in the way of their new swimming pool, we can kiss our ants goodbye.
      • ChiciB1 (522 posts)
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        96. I Still Have My Bumper Stickers On My

         

        And my husband has his too. I toyed with the idea of changing from a Democrat to NPA, but given that I live in FL switching back and forth to vote in our Primaries could very well cause us to have more problems and could actually negate us from voting altogether!

        Most certainly my views are far from the DLC/Third Way views.  So if “we the people” have no other way to fight back I think splintering might be what TPTB want most of all!

        We can pick our issues to support and resist and be vocal against the Neoliberals who need to be Voted Out!

         


        • Marym625 (16796 posts)
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          97. I do too!

          Not taking it off. Ever!!

          I would be afraid to change anything in Florida too. You could end up not being allowed to vote at all.

          Yes, we need to fight all of them that are in it for themselves. Doesn’t matter who or what party. Because they all suck.

          948c8f248a Thank you DNC, Hillary Clinton, The Hillary Clinton Players, GOP, RNC and CrossCheck for Trump. Enjoy it while it lasts. The Revolution may not be televised but it's beginning. And we'll win
    • oldandhappy (2952 posts)
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      2. truth

      Seems to me repubs have always had the discipline and others of us have had the ideas.  I am one of those who did DemExit.  I was disappointed that the Dems did not stand up re voter suppression: said nothing re required IDs from a DMV office open one day a month, said nothing re voter registrations changed, said nothing re polling places closed and huge populations forced thru other more distant polling places, said nothing re stolen primaries…  And still say nothing.  I re-registered Green but anticipate that I will go independent and remain independent altho my heart is raging progressive.  I still work against fracking, work for water, got side-tracked (yea, happens!) with Standing Rock.  But I would like to work with others who may be focused on other issues.  I do not want to fight anyone.  Not sure I want peace either since I am sick and tired of do-nothings.  So what will you do with me??!!  

      • jwirr (2942 posts)
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        80. One of the things the Rs have always had is the rw churches. When they wanted

        to get the vote out the messaged each church and selected members put out the call to call their representatives wherever.

        We really do not have that type of structure – I am not sure how we could set one up. Our Revolution is setting up local groups and this might be a beginning.

    • liberal at heart (1088 posts)
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      4. I vowed after Obama's Race to the Top education policy to never be led

      away from the issues again. The issues are all that matters to me now. I don’t give a crap about personalities anymore. This is not about one person or even one party. This is about the 1%, all of them. People kept asking Occupy Wall Street why they wouldn’t organize politically and they said it was because that would destroy the message. They had it so right.

      • Marym625 (16796 posts)
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        6. And they're used in that "Intelligence Report"

        As a reason for the Wall Street fiasco. Occupy that is. Unbelievable

        948c8f248a Thank you DNC, Hillary Clinton, The Hillary Clinton Players, GOP, RNC and CrossCheck for Trump. Enjoy it while it lasts. The Revolution may not be televised but it's beginning. And we'll win
      • ThomPaine (3045 posts)
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        7. I hear you but we can't do anything about issues without having a true

        representative government.

        aka rhett o rick.     The rich treat us like ants. They may avoid stepping on us, but if our home is in the way of their new swimming pool, we can kiss our ants goodbye.
        • liberal at heart (1088 posts)
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          9. It takes massive citizen movement to create a true representative

          government. Look at the movements that changed things in the ’60s. Those were citizen driven movements and were big enough that they eventually put enough pressure on the government to be more representative. The Democratic primary showed me that getting things done politically is practically impossible right now. We need massive citizen movement to put major pressure on the system.

          • vattel (1096 posts)
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            11. +12,000

          • jwirr (2942 posts)
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            23. Absolutely. Just imagine a sit it today!! We would start arguing about what we

            were doing there and before long we would be setting there with our backs turned to each other. The Standing Rock water protectors showed us how to do it. They were working on issues and more than likely there were things that they did not agree on but that one issue was the focus. No id demanded. Just be against the pipeline. We are going to have many issues like that in the next years.

            • Silver Witch (4214 posts)
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              70. This right here we have to embrace each other!

              You can only protect your liberties in this world by protecting the other man's freedom. You can only be free if I am free. ~ Clarence Darrow
          • Haikugal (4799 posts)
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            27. True, all true. Thanks!

              Be the bird.....       Hey DNC! Up Yours! It's ON!!
          • Jefferson23 (3018 posts)
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            47. +1

    • Peacebird (810 posts)
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      8. Disagree. The DNC & neolibs now want progressives to join them

      which is of couse total BS. The neolib centrists are NOT progressive at all. But they are once again telling progressives that we must join with them to defeat Trump. Thing is, neolibs think we progressives do not remember them telling us repeatedly that Hillary did not need our votes to win. And they further think we forget how we have been villified for herselfs defeat. A defeat caused by her own corruption as exposed by the DNCleaks and the Podesta emails, both of which the latest intelligence report states were uncorrupted actual emails and records.

      I will not join their “resistance”, instead I will be part of the real resistance, rsisting the corrupt DNC elites as well as the corrupt RNC elites.

      • ThomPaine (3045 posts)
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        12. I don't understand what I said that you "disagree" with.

        Clearly never said to “join” anything to do with the neo-liberals.

        aka rhett o rick.     The rich treat us like ants. They may avoid stepping on us, but if our home is in the way of their new swimming pool, we can kiss our ants goodbye.
        • dreamnightwind (785 posts)
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          15. Probably what you said in Post #3

          though I’ll let peacebird speak for him/herself.

          There’s a major “stop trump” resistance being stoked by 3rd-way types, meetings with Brock and billionaire funders to organize it. So for true progressives, it’s a difficult call how to resist Trump’s RW pillaging without enabling and possibly re-legitimizing the thoroughly corrupt wing (actually pretty much the whole party) of the Democratic Party, which is what the 3rd Way types are counting on.

          I suggest we focus on building something new that is independent of both major parties, then we can do any Trump resistance under that entity without giving new life to the corporate Democrats, who need to be exiled from political life.

          I’m already getting a bunch of emails in my inbox from some of my favorite NGO’s wanting everyone to join the resistance. Sadly I think their efforts will mostly put us right back in that place of propping up the discredited “good cop” to limit the damage the bad cop can do, until the pendulum swings again to put corporate Democrats back in power. We’ve been played this way pretty much forever, time for that to end.

          • Entrepreneur (1538 posts)
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            17. Yep. "Fighting" Trump is a ruse to cast the 3rd way losers as the good cops.

            Anything Trump does in favor of the banksters, insurance companies, and pharmaceutical companies will be blessed by the 3rd way. So I see no good coming from being in the same tent with them.  Fight him yes, but don’t rely on them or trust them for shit.

            No longer GoneFishin.  Truth is I've never GoneFishin.
          • Peacebird (810 posts)
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            39. This is exactly what I meant, not joining up with the turdwayer

            efforts. I still have my Bernie bumperstickers on my car and Bernie year sign up as well. I will fight for progressive efforts but will fight against the thirdway astroturf efforts that are trying to gain ground, because those efforts will always advance the centrists agenda at the expense of WeThePeople.

            I will also work hard to see that both my Senators get primaried in their next election, and hopefully get handed their walking papers. Warner & Kaine are both neolib corporatists.

          • Tierra y Libertad (1275 posts)
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            57. Third way types?

            I think not.

             

            But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants is the liberty of appearing. Thomas Paine

             
            • dreamnightwind (785 posts)
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              77. Nice pic. I didn't say it was ONLY 3rd-way types,

              just that 3rd-way types were using this as their plan to find relevance again, without actually changing their ways, putting progressives in a difficult position if they want to avoid a 3rd-way future after Trump.

              • Tierra y Libertad (1275 posts)
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                79. Progressives should resist Trump no matter what the decaf Dems do.

                 

                But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants is the liberty of appearing. Thomas Paine

                 
      • liberal at heart (1088 posts)
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        20. I don't care if my involvement is seen as joining the neolibs. I will

        fight the GOP’s budget proposals that will gut Medicare, Medicaid, and SS. I have an autistic 18 year old son, a blind husband, and a 70 year old father whose lives depend on these programs. I will be there on Jan 15 protesting the GOP’s budget plans. I’m even thinking of joining up with Seattle’s Kshama Sawant’s Socialist Alternative organization. I am very impressed with the results she and the Socialists have been able to get in Seattle and think they will continue to do great work in Seattle and nationwide.

      • jwirr (2942 posts)
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        26. I assume that you are referring the women's march the day after the inauguration

        and I have wondered also who that was organized by. The problem is that as a woman that issue is also important to me so I see it as worth attending to show Trump that we are not going to back down. How am I supposed to know which event is theirs and which is ours?

        Soon we are going to have actual actions of the Trump administration to fight. How are we going to establish ownership of the issue?

    • Jefferson23 (3018 posts)
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      10. When our reps draft legislation and where they fall on policy will tell us

      if our party will need to split or not. Policy should be the means forward, not the person…we have so many corporate Dems..we will have to see how they respond going forward.

      • Land of Enchantment (5530 posts)
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        16. …

        :heart:

        Thanks for the photo!

         

              "Hope is the feathered thing that perches in your heart." ~ Emily Dickinson  
        • Jefferson23 (3018 posts)
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          45. You're welcome!

    • Koko (2642 posts)
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      13. I think we need a "re-grouping."

      Give “The Donald” Six Months.  By then we should have some sense of what’s going on if he gets his appointments passed by the House/Senate and how Pelosi and Schumer react.

      Right now, I think the Dems and Progressive Left are in a ditch.  How do they dig out.  If it continues that the Dem Party does exactly what it has done before and compromises then we know where that goes.

      Is there a prominent Progressive Left?  Will Bernie manage to be a beacon to unite us?   Or, will everything be about Putin, Russia and Left Traitors?  It’s not starting off very well for any kind of “Unity.”

      Will there be pieces that can be put together to create a new coalition or will we just wander in a wilderness for years until we find another uniter if Bernie isn’t able to do it.  The Hillary Wing still wants revenge against the Bernie Faction of the Party and, are still hoping to cover up the CF and CGI’s evil doings along with her Foreign Policy goals that the Clinton Wing still wants to be followed and by a Trump Administration.

      Glenn Greenwald on “Democracy Now” this week, said that we need a people’s movement comprised of the Left and the Right.  He says the Left hasn’t been successful in its demonstrations because it’s always tarred by the right.  He seems to feel Trump may be the one who will finally managed to outrage both the Left and Right enough to have both sides join together to fight for the People’s causes.  (I’m paraphrasing).

      I don’t know if he is correct, but there doesn’t seem to be another alternative if Bernie can’t unite us and get enough media coverage to gain the Left the attention it deserves in their fight for the issues Bernie ran on.  Plus, the end to these foreign interventions that Bernie barely mentioned, but Trump did focus on.

      :shrug:

       

      • dreamnightwind (785 posts)
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        19. You make many good points in this post

        There is little distinction in the public’s minds between the left and the corporate Democratic Party and their policies which tend to benefit the powerful and certain identity-based portions of the population. Because of this, there is little chance of stoking an actual  progressive movement of the magnitude needed to take power back from the oligarchs.

        Bernie showed how much leadership can accomplish in his primary run. People of all political persuasions were surprisingly open to supporting him. Sadly at this point that is pretty much unique to Bernie, he has an authenticity and a passion that connects to his words so people feel it as the truth when he says it, and are motivated to do something about it.

        Are there other Bernies ready to lead us? Is Bernie himself up to the task? I think both of those possibilities are unlikely, at least to the degree needed to bring about change. If someone can do it, it would be awesome.

        If not, I’d say we badly need to unite with the 99% across the entire political spectrum, as your Greenwald reference suggested. That is how I think we can win, and it would not be a hollow victory if we can get power back from the monied elites who care so little about anything other than their own wealth.

        Thanks for your post.

    • sadoldgirl (1443 posts)
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      14. No, I disagree with you "one tent" theory in different ways.

      It should be clear to all of us now that there has been a party realignment.

      The R party has become so rw that it comes close to fascism.

      The D party has turned so far right that it replaces the Rs, (look at

      who supported the s/elected candidate: Banks, Corporations, Kagen,

      Negroponte, etc).This leaves the left or democratic socialists out of the

      game. OWS made another mistake: Too many different issues at once.

      Then there is a question of leadership. To be honest if Bernie had won

      the GE, I would have feared for  his life daily, because -what you leave out –

      there IS a deep state or a machine, which allows for very little deviation

      from its purpose. If Trump goes up against it, he will have to face the

      consequences as well. I am Green, but will join as independent. If the

      independents will concentrate on 2 but no more than 3 issues, they may

      create a movement. That is how Reagan got into the WH. However, I

      believe that it has to come to >than30% unemployment, soup kitchens,

      more wars -in other words to the fear of survival for 50% of the

      population to bring anger, participation and new leaders to the front.

      Going back to the tent, does not solve the problem, because we have

      learned that they will despise, hate and overrule us.

      • Entrepreneur (1538 posts)
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        18. I worried for Bernie also if he won the GE. I suspect that it factored into his

        lack of push back against Hillary’s cheating.  He may have been warned.

        No longer GoneFishin.  Truth is I've never GoneFishin.
      • FanBoy (7071 posts)
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        60. +100. Though I think it doesn't require >30% unemployment– that level

        of complete unemployment affects >50% of the population due to the reverberations (everyone has a relative, friend, etc who’s unemployed….)

    • Major Hogwash (1881 posts)
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      21. I support progressive policies, not parties anymore.

      Because there simply is no clear, wide, distinct, obvious, delineating line between black and white concerning political issues. There are a million shades of gray between them. People have cussed and discussed this for years . . . binary thinking this way will be our undoing. (See, I’ve been doing my homework, reading your comments).

      And indeed, for the most part, it has been one of our biggest problems. The Clinton campaign exploited this fact this year by hiding in the shadows, claiming she was on the correct side of all of the issues that progressives supported. Yet, when the bright spotlight of Bernie’s voting record and his specific stands on those very same issues showed up on the scene, it became obvious to a lot of people that Camp Weathervane did not ever want it revealed that Hillary agreed with Trump more often than not.

      From what I read of what they both had to say, I concluded that they both had the same goals in mind, yet they only differed on the way to accomplish them. However, in the final analysis, it really doesn’t matter if the patient died from a lack of oxygen, or whether the patient bled to death . . the end result was still a dead patient!

      Hillary wanted to remain in the shadows, she wanted to stay hidden on all of those issues in all of those gray areas, but Bernie wanted the lights turned on.  And boy howdy, did he ever turn on those floodlights!

      Progressives can only be effective if we slap the shit out of all politicians — Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Socialists, what have you — equally, for supporting something other than progressive policies. Having a specific letter behind their name should never again be used as a shield by them just so they can hide their terrible voting record behind that party letter. They should also never again be given a pass just because “this is a red state”. They should never again tell us to vote for them “because I’m not as bad as my opponent”. I’m sick of that kind of argument.

      Either they want to represent me as a progressive, or they don’t.

      That’s it, period.

      • sadoldgirl (1443 posts)
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        25. Thank you. This is the most important lesson all of us should have learned!

        They don’t represent us, therefore they have no right to

        our vote!

        • Peacebird (810 posts)
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          41. Exactly. Both Bill & Podesta came out & stated Berners & progressives WOULD

          vote for Hillary, because where else do they have to go? They still can’t believe so many of us refused to fall in line!

      • jwirr (2942 posts)
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        28. Your second to the last paragraph says it all. That is what I mean by issues.

      • ThomPaine (3045 posts)
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        35. I keep hearing how we are going to do it without a party and I don't understand.

        We need to pass legislation.  How do we do that without a party?

        In my opinion, if we progressives are incapable of taking control of the Democratic Party, we sure as hell ain’t going to take control of the country.  If there is a way that I am missing, plus enlighten me.

        aka rhett o rick.     The rich treat us like ants. They may avoid stepping on us, but if our home is in the way of their new swimming pool, we can kiss our ants goodbye.
        • Major Hogwash (1881 posts)
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          38. That's the beauty of being independent of a party . . .

          . . . we don’t have to be herded on to cattle cars as we are being led to the slaughter.

          We can’t pass legislation, we don’t even have much influence, if any, over the people who can.

          All we can do is protest against the shit they do to us. All we can do is spread the word about our crummy government representatives. All we can do is vote them out of office when it comes time to do so. All we can do is shelter in place until the time comes when some other person, someone much more progressive than the shmuck that is currently in office, decides to run for the same office to primary his or her ass. Until such time that the Democratic party stops foisting off stink bombs like Hillary on us, I frankly don’t give a good gawd damn what that party does. We need to take out the Blue Dogs one by one, individually. We don’t need a party to do that. All we need is the internet and hold a few face-to-face sessions with other local voters concerned about the direction of our country. All politics is local. All we need to do is be like the Occupy movement, take over the friggin’ park and never back down. All we need to do is be the town crier every time one of our loser representatives votes for policies that aren’t progressive, and tell everyone we know what a loser he/she is for voting that way.  I’m not crying “wolf” or fear mongering here, rather I’m facing the uphill climb of my life. I intend to strive to make changes here locally in order to make things right in my neck of the woods once the Twitter President takes office. This has to be done to save our country now that it is obvious that both parties are controlled by the MIC, and that both are corporate conies who are in bed with the bankers. This has to be done one crummy representative, or one crummy Senator at a time, on the local level. The next 2 years are crucial, and the results of what happens in just 2 years at the ballot box will definitely have an impact on what comes down the pike in 4 years.

          The past is over, we lost last year big-time. Now we move on, as the struggle continues.

          • ThomPaine (3045 posts)
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            54. And my best wishes to you. IMHO to oust the Blue Dogs we must have

            someone to replace them.  Currently there are good Democrats that can step in.  How will you recruit candidates from outside the party?

            aka rhett o rick.     The rich treat us like ants. They may avoid stepping on us, but if our home is in the way of their new swimming pool, we can kiss our ants goodbye.
            • Major Hogwash (1881 posts)
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              84. I'm not in the recruiting business, Thom.

              I don’t know what the Dems are going to do. I don’t know yet how they are going to react to the Twitter President once the gate drops in 2 weeks. That’s when the race starts.

              Those Dems had better start realizing that their jobs are on the line, as of this moment, right now.

              I don’t know what state you are living in, but I’m currently in Idaho. This state voted for Trump by a wide margin. Even though Ted Cruz scored one of his few wins over Trump during the Republican primary here, the majority of Republican voters got behind their man at the top of the ticket in order to trounce Hillary.

              Both of our U.S. Representatives and both of our U.S. Senators are Republicans, and they ALL won their re-elections to office easily, getting over 60% of the vote each time. One of those Representatives is older and he may choose to retire in the next 2 years. Who knows. But, with a solid 20%+ margin of victory, that means we would still have to “flip” over 10% of the voters’ opinions in order to even be competitive for his seat in Congress.

              However, until the Dems in Congress start acting like they are not enablers to the Republicans, Idahoans don’t have much of an alternative to choose from. There hasn’t been much of a difference in Washington when the Dems constantly compromise and cave in to the Republican’s demands. In the next 18 months I expect 2, maybe 3, perhaps even 4, progressives to step forward in order to challenge that older U.S. Representative from Idaho. The other U.S. Representative seems pretty safe, so only 1 person needs to step up to run for his Congressional seat to represent the Dems in his Congressional District.

        • Jefferson23 (3018 posts)
          Profile photo of Jefferson23

          49. I look at it this way, we don't have a party at the moment and in order to

          build one and or reform the one we have will involve supporting policies that are clear. Clear enough to mobilize voters to get behind them, to force the political hand of those politicians who are currently in power. If they reject the call of the people, they should be warned they’ll be challenged with a replacement. That is the hard part…it will take time, state by state, congressional seat by congressional seat…we can’t rely on the GE.

      • Jefferson23 (3018 posts)
        Profile photo of Jefferson23

        46. The policies, agree 100%. This will help mobilize voters regardless of party

        affiliation…right now that is the key going forward.

        • ThomPaine (3045 posts)
          Profile photo of ThomPaine Moderator

          55. I very much agree but we need people to step up to represent our values. How

          do we plan to do that?

          aka rhett o rick.     The rich treat us like ants. They may avoid stepping on us, but if our home is in the way of their new swimming pool, we can kiss our ants goodbye.
          • Jefferson23 (3018 posts)
            Profile photo of Jefferson23

            58. With a clear agenda and it already resonates with Americans..this is not

            about pandering to any conservative fundie christian fears and or bigotry, it is about solidarity on crucial issues.

            One example:

            Why Conservatives Are Marching for Campaign Finance Reform
            Republicans talk about their decision to join the Democracy Spring protests in Washington this week.

            By Kathy Kiely | April 15, 2016

            http://billmoyers.com/story/why-conservatives-are-marching-for-campaign-finance-reform/

            Another example:

            Brand New Congress is a campaign to run 400+ non-politician candidates for Congress in 2018 in one unified campaign behind one plan to rebuild the economy, repair our communities and radically reform our institutions. We believe there are obvious solutions to America’s biggest problems that the vast majority of Americans would fight for if they were put on the table in a national election. But we don’t hear about those solutions because the current bi-partisan establishment agrees 100% on bad trade deals, massive bank bailouts, and supporting the take over of our economy by the financial industry. It also agrees on mass incarceration, allowing the ultrawealthy to have undue influence in our politics, and inaction against an out-of-control “justice” system. It uses partisan bickering over taxes and spending to cover up its consensus on those things that really matter and to pretend that Americans are pitted against each other in partisan grid lock.

            What does BNC want?
            1. Good jobs for everyone, prosperity for every community
            The BNC’s plan calls for a mobilization on the scale of World War II – one in which every American is called upon to rebuild and repair our communities and our nation. in full: https://brandnewcongress.org/plan

            One more, which addresses propaganda and the normalizing corporate media is guilty of:

            ‘We’ve Got to Start Talking About How Are We Going to Build an Alternative’
            Janine Jackson interviewed Craig Aaron about funding local media for the December 2, 2016, episode of CounterSpin.

            Janine Jackson: As big corporate media try to puzzle out whether they can get away with their usual lapdog routine with a president-elect who openly berates and threatens them, many people have already determined that big corporate media are not actually where they’re going to be looking for the news and perspectives that we need to help us forward in these times, and inform our resistance to a racist, sexist, anti-worker, anti-poor, anti-environment, anti-civil liberties administration. Just as many now look to states and local governments for legislative and policy protections, some see the local space as a site of hopefulness for news media as well.

            It’s not just pipe dreams: There is a development on that front, and here to tell us about it is Craig Aaron, president of the group Free Press. He joins us by phone from Washington, DC. Welcome back to CounterSpin, Craig Aaron.

            http://fair.org/home/weve-got-to-start-talking-about-how-are-we-going-to-build-an-alternative/

             

            • ThomPaine (3045 posts)
              Profile photo of ThomPaine Moderator

              66. Great post. Thanks for the information that I wasn't aware of, but it doesn't

              answer my question.  Where are we going to get the people to represent us?  Over the years I have been involved in many, many groups and organizations.  When we asked who would be interested in running the organization, it was almost always the Establishment types.

              Would you consider making an OP out of your post?

              aka rhett o rick.     The rich treat us like ants. They may avoid stepping on us, but if our home is in the way of their new swimming pool, we can kiss our ants goodbye.
            • ThomPaine (3045 posts)
              Profile photo of ThomPaine Moderator

              75. Does Sen Sanders endorse Brand New Congress?

              aka rhett o rick.     The rich treat us like ants. They may avoid stepping on us, but if our home is in the way of their new swimming pool, we can kiss our ants goodbye.
              • Jefferson23 (3018 posts)
                Profile photo of Jefferson23

                76. I don't know that Sanders gave a specific endorsement. Your previous

                question is valid…and the idea Our Revolution and BNC are in sync is not cemented in any way that I am aware of. However, the idea is to field people who want to serve with that agenda…in that scenario, they’re not that different. The problem for some who left Our Revolution under Weaver was due to the 501 status. But to answer your question as directly as I can, it is two fold in my view. We, the citizenry can pressure those already holding seats in congress and see how they respond and or challenge them with someone who can win their seat…no small feat. It is my opinion the corporate Dems will try and skate for awhile, they have a boogey man in Trump..not to suggest he is a good guy with a benevolent agenda, but I suspect they will try and sound progressive since we don’t have a majority to do much with. If they fight the good fight before 2018 elections we’ll see soon enough. I am not certain we can reform our corporate Dems but one goal of mine in Connecticut is to reach those who do not vote, who are working poor and below…this is Hillary Clinton territory, many liberals like her. They like their money and were fine with her platform and fine with ignoring the disadvantaged. Our governor is a corporate tool and so is my congressman Jim Hines. Malloy is  a piece of shit of man but getting rid of him won’t be easy. An example of the kind of “liberal” we have in CT:

                Backstabbing ‘Progressive’ Dem Gov Unleashes a Heartless Austerity Agenda on Disabled Residents
                Connecticut’s Gov. goes after the most vulnerable citizens.
                By Michael Arria / AlterNet
                September 21, 2016

                http://www.alternet.org/economy/backstabbing-progressive-dem-gov-unleashes-heartless-austerity-agenda-disabled-residents

                My point is, I get what your concerns are but people interested in the political process should be hopeful…it was the money Sanders was able to raise b/c his political agenda was honest and tested…well, that and his character, obviously..that blew the minds of the DNC. More than enough Americans really do recognize the problems. Committing and mobilizing is harder yet I believe that message will allow us to challenge the establishment. I like what BNC is attempting, which makes sense, do not wait for the GE, work instead for recruiting people in your state who accept the political platform as established, for the most part, and support them vigorously. Hope that answers your question.

              • Jefferson23 (3018 posts)
                Profile photo of Jefferson23

                78. Here is a bit more about BNC:

                snip*

                The group’s core principles include government investment in a “massive rebuilding project in partnership with businesses in America”; creating “a 100 percent renewable energy society in as short a time as possible”; reforming a criminal justice system that “unfairly targets people of color” into one that “spends its money on integrating offenders back into society”; repealing Citizens United and “getting rid of the revolving door between Wall Street and our government”; and advancing policies to “further the rights of people of color, women, and LGBTQ people.” When the group launched, there was no mention of war, intervention, or military spending.

                Brand New Congress intends to run Republican candidates in gerrymandered GOP districts. But will it find elephants willing to embrace all its “nonnegotiable” core principles? And, particularly among Democrats, how will the group decide which incumbents merit a challenge?

                According to Trent, nearly all of them: “It’s our belief that only a handful are vocally standing up against this broken and corrupt political process.” He adds, “The concept here is to put policies and people over party. We are not huge proponents of either the Democratic or Republican party establishment; both parties are equally at odds with the American worker.”

                At a recent San Francisco event during Brand New Congress’s 100-city national tour, core team member Alexandra Rojas said the initiative “transcends” partisan politics. The priority, she said, is “not about taxes, not about regulations, but about creating 100 million jobs,” and reviving American manufacturing. Fellow Brand New Congress organizer and core team leader Nasim Thompson stressed the group’s “open source” organizing, saying:

                http://www.progressive.org/news/2016/10/189006/whats-next-bernies-revolution

                • ThomPaine (3045 posts)
                  Profile photo of ThomPaine Moderator

                  82. I am encouraged by this. Thanks.

                  aka rhett o rick.     The rich treat us like ants. They may avoid stepping on us, but if our home is in the way of their new swimming pool, we can kiss our ants goodbye.
      • Colors of the Rainbow (1003 posts)
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        102. +1

    • Rocker (450 posts)
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      33. These divisions are happening anyway

      Progressives won’t die as a party or movement.  What you described, some shaking it off and moving forward, others fight about blame or where to go, some abandon the corrupted D party; that’s always going to happen when things disintegrate as in our current corrupted nation.  Some will try to salvage something out of the corruption but it won’t happen.

      People are going to move into their own spheres and from there things will start to happen.  I think it’ll start on state levels with passage of laws like pot legalization, min wage increases, global warming initiatives, equal rights marriage, voter and worker protections, their own free press, prosecuting and actually jailing people, etc…

      People are done with corruption, the talking is over and the criminals are done.  Progressivism will rise naturally out of the ashes of elitism but not until the elite become irrelevant, which is occurring.  The elite’s propaganda now mostly fails miserably, only a few remaining dupes and corrupt cronies believe it.

      On a personal level, I’d be g-damned happy as hell to see single payer healthcare in my lifetime.

      • FanBoy (7071 posts)
        Profile photo of FanBoy

        63. lots of people still believe it; most importantly, lots of those who run

        things at the local levels.  and because they do, those beneath them do, in a chain of command.

    • jeff47 (715 posts)
      Profile photo of jeff47 Donor

      36. That "coming together" would require the neoliberals to actually change.

      And until that happens, “coming together” is just surrender.

      If the party establishment actually starts to do something about their continuous string of horrific performance since the 1990s, then there can be some unity.  If “shut up and fight Trump” continues to be the only thing they do, then there will be no unity.

      Either they’ll pull their heads out of their ass, or they will continue to wither.  Which path they choose is not up to me.

      • Populist Prole (404 posts)
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        37. You said it

        So many other posters did as well but you summed it up in the most concise way.

         

      • ThomPaine (3045 posts)
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        56. As I see it, we must get progressive leaders to step up to replace the neo-libs.

        Without that we have nothing but rhetoric.

        aka rhett o rick.     The rich treat us like ants. They may avoid stepping on us, but if our home is in the way of their new swimming pool, we can kiss our ants goodbye.
        • jeff47 (715 posts)
          Profile photo of jeff47 Donor

          87. That would require fighting the neoliberals, not following them.

          They currently show no signs of willingly giving up control.  As a result, “Unity” would just be following them over the cliff again.

          • ThomPaine (3045 posts)
            Profile photo of ThomPaine Moderator

            95. We need to fight the neo-liberals head on. It's essential for us to

            drive them from the Democratic Party.  It’s our party and we should yield it to them.  If we can’t defeat them within the party,  IMHO we will never defeat them from outside the party.

            aka rhett o rick.     The rich treat us like ants. They may avoid stepping on us, but if our home is in the way of their new swimming pool, we can kiss our ants goodbye.
    • peacecorps (2497 posts)
      Profile photo of peacecorps Donor

      40. The tea party wing always threatened to go "anti-herding" on the GOP but

      mostly stayed in the “herd”, as conservatives most often do, and has now taken it over.

      As you say, I doubt that strategy will work for progressives since our instinct against ‘herding’ is so different.

      I am with you. FDR did not side with the fascists nor the neoliberals. That is good enough for me.

      FDR stood for high/progressive taxes, tight regulation of corporations, effective legislation to support strong unions, a strong safety net, fiscal policy that supports full employment rather than austerity, engagement with the rest of the world in terms of trade and diplomacy and the Four Freedoms. Bernie supports the same issues plus an understanding of the danger posed by climate change. Count me as an FDR/Bernie liberal.
    • Enthusiast (6592 posts)
      Profile photo of Enthusiast Donor

      42. Recommended!

      A majority of Americans favor the following:

      1. They want to hold Wall Street accountable. They also want to rein in future abuse by Wall Street by enacting a new Glass Steagal.
      2. A majority of Americans want to raise taxes on the wealthy.
      3. A majority of Americans want a ‘Medicare for All’ single payer health care system.
      4. An end to the costly counterproductive foreign entanglements.
      5. Preserve social security.
      6. Repair the crumbling infrastructure.

      I am sure there are others. The fact that these are favored by a majority of Americans makes these Centrist Goals. It doesn’t matter how loud the fake news complex claims these are radical fringe ideas.

      "The NSA’s capability at any time could be turned around on the American people, and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything. There would be no place to hide."  Frank Church
      • Jefferson23 (3018 posts)
        Profile photo of Jefferson23

        50. That's it right there…and why I bleive we can do this…we are not starting at

        ground zero. Great list!

      • OrwellwasRight (66 posts)
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        86. We have more in common than not.

        But it benefits the current economic elites to have us proles at each others’ throats.  And to many of us are happy to comply.

        “Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done.” - Louis D. Brandeis
    • id-entity (2015 posts)
      Profile photo of id-entity

      43. Anti-authoritarian

      is not left or right issue. There are both authoritarian followers and libertarians left, right and center. True progress means growing and maturing beyond childish dependence from authorities and partisan tribalism, towards more and more full acceptance that freedom and responsibility go hand in hand.

      Disclaimer: You are free to reproduce, distribute, interpret, misinterpret, distort, garble, do what you like, even claim authorship, without my consent or the permission of anybody.
    • INTJ (1753 posts)
      Profile photo of INTJ

      44. Maybe a common human trait… look at the number of protestant denominations

      Protestants just can’t stop protesting and neither can protestors.

      Once upon a time I thought that was mostly about individuals fighting for leadership, but it’s mostly the unceasing ability to find faults once you’ve master finding faults.

      Grant us the vision to see what must be changed and save us from making it even worse.
    • IdaBriggs (750 posts)
      Profile photo of IdaBriggs

      48. No. The betrayal of the Democrats is far worse than Trump.

      Trump is a Republican. Republicans have different priorities than progressives and (in theory) Democrats. I *expect* Republican goals (like “lowering taxes for the uber rich”) to be unpalatable to me.

      The problem is that my DEMOCRATIC leadership has been betraying me. Seven countries being bombed during Obama’s presidency, money grabs for the insurance industry, ignoring laws intended to promote government accountability and transparency (yes, I am STILL furious about the private server) and rigging a primary election on behalf of an insulting candidate despised by the majority of the country is an absolute What. The. Fuck. beyond the pale betrayal.

      My “spouse” – in this case, the Democratic Party – made vows. They cheated on me with low class scum. The scum are still scum – they have always been scum, and they will continue to be scum – but my spouse is where my wrath is justifiably aimed at, because we had VOWS.

      Our “marriage” is over unless or until there are some serious changed. Telling me to “get over it” for the sake of the children (or the Supreme Court or whatever the cause that is supposed to matter) without some serious “Regret, Repent and Repair” put in place so that my trust can be rebuilt isn’t going to happen.

      Fucking around with the same people who screwed me over in the first place while blaming the fact they screwed around on everyone else, including the God blessed Russians, while taking ZERO responsibility is not getting me back.

      Fire John Podesta, Donna Brazile, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, and send the Clintons to the wilderness, and THEN we can talk.

      In the meantime, I am still #DEMEXIT and a proud Independent, and I will spit on anyone who wants to play kiss you face with Hillary Clinton by pretending that cheating whore of Wall Street should be treated as anything but a criminal.

      And so help me God, if one fucking asshole in Trump’s cabinet decides to get a private server so they can do government business “off the books” while avoiding freedom of information act requirements, I may just scream about it for the rest of eternity, especially if the fucking hypocritical Democrats suddenly discover that the laws they were willing to ignore because they loved Hillary’s cash spouting tits so much actually MATTER when REPUBLICANS commit the same crimes.

      I know who is worse. It isn’t Trump.

      And I am not over it yet.

      :mad:

      • Ohio Barbarian (1838 posts)
        Profile photo of Ohio Barbarian Donor

        52. ^^This!^^

        Well said.

        "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."--Voltaire  
      • ThomPaine (3045 posts)
        Profile photo of ThomPaine Moderator

        53. I don't want you to get over it. I am not asking that you be friends or follower

        of the neo-libs.  But IMHO if we can’t drive them out of the Democratic Party, OUR PARTY, then we have no hope.  I welcome other ideas, but to me I haven’t heard any other ideas.   Start another party?  It wouldn’t be effective in my lifetime.  Become Independents?  What leverage would that bring?  IMHO, your spouse (the Dem Party) has been taken over by the devil and requires exorcising and not abandoning.

        When people want to disparage the Democratic Party Neo-Liberal Elite, I wish they wouldn’t refer to them as “Democrats”, i.e., “the Democrats did this to us or that to us”.  There are millions of Democrats that don’t agree with the neo-liberals that get painted with that brush.

        aka rhett o rick.     The rich treat us like ants. They may avoid stepping on us, but if our home is in the way of their new swimming pool, we can kiss our ants goodbye.
        • IdaBriggs (750 posts)
          Profile photo of IdaBriggs

          62. Explain why John Podesta is still a power in the Party.

          Donna Brazile was caught sending debate questions – still employed. Debbie Wasserman-Schultz – still employed. The staff who ignored the rust belt – still employed. Nancy Pelosi just scolded the press for reporting on wiki leaks – still in a “leadership” position.

          There have been no attempts to make amends to this country. There has been no accountability for actual breaches in law and ethics.

          We are being asked to “get over it” and my answer is a flat out NO.

          I will fight for progressive causes and follow Bernie’s examples, but I have ZERO respect for the Democrats, and that includes every single “super delegate” who put Hillary Clinton on the ballot instead of Bernie Sanders.

          They are not “leaders” – they are leeches. And I say NO.

          • ThomPaine (3045 posts)
            Profile photo of ThomPaine Moderator

            67. I am not arguing one bit that the neo-libs don't have control of OUR party.

            I am simply asking what are we going to do?  How do we fight them?

            aka rhett o rick.     The rich treat us like ants. They may avoid stepping on us, but if our home is in the way of their new swimming pool, we can kiss our ants goodbye.
            • IdaBriggs (750 posts)
              Profile photo of IdaBriggs

              73. Your point is valid and I don't have good answers.

              The fact the mainstream media is “blaming Russia” instead of asking why these people are still employable shows THEY are still in control of the party.

              Personally, I think it is $$$ but even when “we the people” funded a candidate with small donations, the “people in charge” screwed that over. This tells me that we CANNOT work within the existing power structure. We need to find a reasonable way to get discredited ASSHOLES out of positions where they can enable corruption, but in essence, we are dealing with the “thin blue line” that honest cops have problems with when crooked cops destroy their credibility with the public.

              At least you are ASKING. I am still in the “stay away” phase of the betrayal. If it was easily fixable, it would be done already, wouldn’t it?

              :(

            • Autumn Colors (1495 posts)
              Profile photo of Autumn Colors Donor

              101. IdaBriggs said she's #Demexit

              I am, too.  Therefore, the Democratic Party is no longer “our party”.  Our solution – as was that of many other people – was to leave the Democratic Party.  As more and more people leave and become independents (or maybe start/join another party), the problem will solve itself.  The older guard will die off, and the younger generations won’t replace that segment of the party’s membership.

              You asked what does becoming an independent solve?  If the majority of Americans abandon party politics and become independents, then it solves the problem of party politics/identity politics with all of its lockstep requirements.  If independents are the majority, then the 2 parties will both need to run candidates that are acceptable to that MAJORITY if they want their votes.  Earn ’em or lose ’em.

              The Democratic Party can die off for all I care at this point.  IdaBriggs considers them to have cheated on her.  I used to be married to the Democratic Party as well, but in that respect, I consider myself a widow because they are DEAD to me.  They died the day Bernie showed up to the convention stage with a mysterious bruise and gash on his face, suddenly proclaiming his support for Hillary Clinton.

            • Colors of the Rainbow (1003 posts)
              Profile photo of Colors of the Rainbow

              103. Deny them your vote

              That is the answer.

              If you don’t succeed, during the remainder of your life, I’m sorry. But, there is a lot for which we humans don’t have control—and that we won’t succeed.

              You do have control of how you will handle your voting. And I opted to deny the Ds my 2016 general-election vote for every office on the ballot. That was an example of me recognizing my own power.

      • FanBoy (7071 posts)
        Profile photo of FanBoy

        64. yes. fake dems are worse than real pubs because fake dems are

        LIARS, BETRAYERS, HYPOCRITES, GRIFTERS, COLLUDERS.

        You can at least generally trust pubs to do what they say.\

        You can’t trust fake dems for shit.

      • DoctorJ (398 posts)
        Profile photo of DoctorJ Donor

        72. Since Pelosi, Schumer are the "leaders" again, prospects are bleak for

        any sort of re-tooling of the ideology any time soon.  I wonder how bad things will have to get for the party before theyll actually try something new.

        The ideal CNN story is a baby down a well, while the ideal Fox story is probably a baby thrown down a well by a Muslim terrorist or an ACORN activist. - Matt Taibbi, "Insane Clown President"
      • Enthusiast (6592 posts)
        Profile photo of Enthusiast Donor

        91. I agree, totally.

        Hey, you aren’t Russian are you….influencing me. I kid.

        The betrayal of the Democrats is far worse than Trump. I’ll never forgive that asshole Obama, Pelosi, Reid, both Clintons, Barney Frank, Schumer and the rest.

        Imagine, I have been a lifelong Democrat, a dyed in the wool Democrat, if you will. Now I have no party. And it wasn’t due to the influence of the Russians. It is pretty hard to ignore the legislative betrayals by Bill Clinton (and Obama) like The Telecommunications Act, NAFTA and Gramm-Leach-Bliley.

        "The NSA’s capability at any time could be turned around on the American people, and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything. There would be no place to hide."  Frank Church
      • nc4bo (629 posts)
        Profile photo of nc4bo Donor

        98. AND HERE IT IS!!! Standing OVATION!

        Thank you @Ida Briggs for laying down the undiluted truth.

        I will never have electoral relations with THAT woman and I didn't! *Always remember, everything "they" touch turns to shit.*
      • Dont call me Shirley (3107 posts)
        Profile photo of Dont call me Shirley

        99. Above the top post, Ida…

        You hit every point with perfection. All of the leaders of the D party are wolves in sheep’s clothing!

        Who made this famous quote:

        “Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice, you don’t get fooled again”

        The American majority is NOT GETTING FOOLED AGAIN!!!!! Got that D leaders?!

      • Sadie (3064 posts)
        Profile photo of Sadie Donor

        100. Bravo IdaBriggs!

        You and I both, friend.  :hug:  Please, please make this an OP!

          Wake up, peeps, their kids go to Harvard and Yale; your kids go to Iraq & Afghanistan.   
    • ravensong (1000 posts)
      Profile photo of ravensong Donor

      51. Totally with you. The Trumpzis and Third Way New Dems

      both work to disrupt and derail our progressive revolution in support of Trump’s Republican agenda or the Third Way New Democrat agenda, respectively.

       

      “Democratic socialism means that we must reform a political system which is corrupt—that we must create an economy that works for all, not just the very wealthy,”  ~ Sen. Bernie Sanders  
    • FanBoy (7071 posts)
      Profile photo of FanBoy

      59. 'progressives'

      got unions done, got all the worker and consumer protections done, got civil rights done, etc etc etc

      I submit that the reason it sometimes seems they ‘can’t get stuff done’ is because the forces ranged against them are much more powerful and devious than the powers ranged against conservatives — basically, there are no forces ranged against conservatives, they’re signed on with the status quo and the powerful

      • ravensong (1000 posts)
        Profile photo of ravensong Donor

        61. ^This^ New Dem conservatives have massive wealth behind them, and they

        don’t care if they lose elections, as long as progressives do not win elections. Republicans in power are just fine with them, because, as you mentioned, Republicans are signed on to the status quo and the powerful.

        We progressives have two very wealthy, powerful, and utterly corrupt conservative establishment groups working to keep us from creating a more equal and just world; namely, Republicans and New Democrats.

        It’s gonna take mass solidarity among progressives to overcome them.

        “Democratic socialism means that we must reform a political system which is corrupt—that we must create an economy that works for all, not just the very wealthy,”  ~ Sen. Bernie Sanders  
    • Cassiopeia (1542 posts)
      Profile photo of Cassiopeia

      65. The major problem I see is that both parties are fighting progressive ideas

      equally.

      After Bernie “lost” the primary we were left with no candidates willing to fight for progressive ideals.  Hell in some ways Trump was speaking more towards our needs than Hillary, at least in regards to trade.

      Progressives didn’t divide after the primary as much as we were simply left out of the equation completely.

      • ThomPaine (3045 posts)
        Profile photo of ThomPaine Moderator

        68. The Establishments of both Parties are owned by the wealthy.

        We need to throw out the Establishment.  The question is how.

        aka rhett o rick.     The rich treat us like ants. They may avoid stepping on us, but if our home is in the way of their new swimming pool, we can kiss our ants goodbye.
    • kliljedahl (568 posts)
      Profile photo of kliljedahl

      81. Just like organizing atheists has often been compared to….

      "Actually lots of things happen after you die, just none of them include you..." Louis CK
      • ThomPaine (3045 posts)
        Profile photo of ThomPaine Moderator

        83. "Organizing atheists", LOL. Many atheist don't even like to be called atheists.

        Some call me an atheist, but I refuse the title because, as I see it, someone has to define “god” before I can say I don’t believe.  I don’t believe in the Christians god, but am ok with Einstein’s god.  Does that make me an atheist in the eyes of non-Christians?

        aka rhett o rick.     The rich treat us like ants. They may avoid stepping on us, but if our home is in the way of their new swimming pool, we can kiss our ants goodbye.
        • Enthusiast (6592 posts)
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          90. I'm with you on the Einstein's god thing.

          To a large segment of society this is simply unacceptable. If you don’t go to a regular Sunday service and tithe you are no better than an atheist.

          "The NSA’s capability at any time could be turned around on the American people, and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything. There would be no place to hide."  Frank Church
    • OrwellwasRight (66 posts)
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      85. I could not agree more.

      I’ve been saying this on every possible forum for two months.  I’m not sure we are the biggest problem.  I think it is the Clinton fanatics who never saw the loss coming who I’ve seen suggest banning Bernie supporters from the party, calling those who didn’t vote “traitors,” calling all coal country voters “idiots” who don’t understand their own interests, etc.   It’s that kind of absolutist hate language that will prevent Democrats/the left from uniting, gaining power and electoral strength.  I certainly would not talk to people in the Democratic Party if they had already labeled me a racist or an idiot.

      “Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done.” - Louis D. Brandeis
      • id-entity (2015 posts)
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        89. Herd = Clinton fanatics

        Authoritarian followers, tribal partisan loyalists. The cats jumped to JPR etc.

        Factionalism of left (zillion Trotter parties etc.) is a combination of both dogmatism and authoritarian herd mentality.

        Disclaimer: You are free to reproduce, distribute, interpret, misinterpret, distort, garble, do what you like, even claim authorship, without my consent or the permission of anybody.
    • Katashi (696 posts)
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      88. Screw that. I will never return to the Dem party as it is now.

      Dems can continue to do what they do best, lose elections.

      • Enthusiast (6592 posts)
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        92. How many losses will it take before people wake up?

        "The NSA’s capability at any time could be turned around on the American people, and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything. There would be no place to hide."  Frank Church
        • Katashi (696 posts)
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          93. Once we have starvation in the streets, then add ten years.

    • liberalguy (284 posts)
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      94. The sheepdogs tending the liberal herd are tasked with chasing away impure sheep

      We should stick to arguments that 99% of us can agree upon.

      How far downfield has protesting agitating and demanding that public bathrooms be open to anyone pushed the progressive ball?

      Personally, I’m indifferent to the issue, yet my progressive creds are at risk if I don’t strictly adhere to the sensibilities of those who are most exercised about it.

       

      There is nobody so irritating as somebody with less intelligence and more sense than we have. - Don Herold
    • Bernin4U (563 posts)
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      105. Even the best orchestra still needs a conductor. The best sports team a coach.

      Regardless of the talent involved, good success requires good organization. And good organization (whenever involving more than maybe 2 people) requires good leadership.

      Great music, sports, entertainment can even happen without the best talent out there. But it pretty much never happens without great direction and coaching. No matter how good the talent is.

      But “anti-herding”? Nonsense. The top players are simply more selective about who they’re willing to get behind. The high school driver’s ed teacher is very unlikely to be worth their time.

      I personally saw, several times, tens of thousands of people absolutely thrilled to herd themselves, quite literally, for Bernie. Was Trump collecting into the hundreds of thousands, putting Bernie rallies to shame? I certainly don’t remember it that way. So, apples-to-apples, the “anti-herding” argument seems pretty flimsy.

      Progressives absolutely will “herd” behind a leader. But it has to be someone much better than the driver’s ed teacher.

      When Bernie conceded at the convention, the timing for Jill Stein was perfect to pick up the ball and run with it. But she really never did. Instead, she maintained her position as usual (behind Bernie), rather than taking the lead. Extremely disappointing to me.

      The ball is still there on the field…

      • ThomPaine (3045 posts)
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        106. I didn't mean "anti-herding" in a pejorative way. I see it as anti-

        authoritarian.  I don’t disagree that progressives rallied behind Sen Sanders but he might be one in a million.  The war is still waging and yet some progressives are dispersing apparently not able to agree on who are next conductor should be.

        “The ball is still there on the field”, exactly and it should never have left our possession.   We need to suck up the lose and get another “conductor” and fight on.

        aka rhett o rick.     The rich treat us like ants. They may avoid stepping on us, but if our home is in the way of their new swimming pool, we can kiss our ants goodbye.
        • Bernin4U (563 posts)
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          107. Sure, anyone really good at anything is one in a million. At least.

          After all, that only puts you in the Top 300 in the US. Or, the Top 7500 globally.

          It’s like trying to find good Asian food in the midwest (at least when I lived there a couple decades ago). Just because you can’t find it, doesn’t mean there isn’t a demand.

          Sure, conservative churches, conservative radio, media, etc are everywhere. But if a strong progressive voice comes along, we will flock to it. We’re scattered for now, but will come back together just as quickly. And without it, we won’t.

          The problem is that such a voice is TPTB’s biggest enemy.