jerry611 (214 posts)March 20, 2017 at 9:28 pm
If Russia did meddle in the election, did it matter?
From what I can tell, the Russians didn’t screw around with voting machines or put guns to people’s heads going into the voting booths. The Russians didn’t change any vote totals or stuff the ballot boxes. So how exactly did they “meddle” in the election?
I will bet the Russians had hacked both political parties for years. And they could have released emails or damaging info on whichever candidate they didn’t like. Shifting public opinion one way or another with fake news or twisting facts to influence a vote is nothing new. That stuff goes back to Greece and the birth of democracy. Heck, even our founding fathers did it. Voters are easily mislead. That’s a reality of a democratic system of government that you have to be willing to accept.
The fear that I have with all this though is it will lead to a call to censor. The government will force a crackdown of “fake news” which then be declared anything that is in opposition to the establishment’s agenda. Ultimately, it is the voter’s responsibility to determine what the truth is and what direction to go.
In the end, I don’t think it mattered. Hillary Clinton would have lost this election with or without Russian meddling. Her candidacy was truly that bad. The people in the Midwest were sick and tired of what that woman represented. And that had nothing to do with Russia. If the Democrats want to ignore that and focus on Russia, they have only themselves to blame when 2020 is another loss.nashvillebrook, OzoneTom, jwirr and 9 othersXyzse, Pam, djean111, Koko, goodgirl, senz, broiles, Yanath, Doremus Jessup like this
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1 month ago #12
Doremus Jessup (2132 posts) (Reply to original post) March 20, 2017 at 9:36 pm
1. No. Wasted time and whining for for Clinton.Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity. End ALL occupations and bring the troops home.
HIP56948 (1814 posts) (Reply to original post) March 20, 2017 at 9:57 pm
2. The United states has been meddling in other countries affairs, voting..
…rights, their workforce and their internal programs for decades and I’m suppose to get all self righteous and puffed-up because maybe somebody else was in OUR business ?
Selahedin (510 posts) (Reply to HIP56948 - post #2) March 21, 2017 at 9:29 am
Yanath (357 posts) (Reply to original post) March 20, 2017 at 9:59 pm
3. I don't think it matters, for the reasons you cited.
And besides, the hypocrisy is just over the top. The US, whining about being targeted by the mild propaganda of another government, after what it has done to countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Korea, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Haiti, the Philippines, and on and on, just makes me sneer. Americans need to learn about the history of US conduct in the world for the last 200 years or so. They need to understand the meaning of policy doctrines, like the Monroe Doctrine and the Roosevelt Corollary. Their government is guilty of far worse than what Russia has been accused of.
Fawke Em (3118 posts) (Reply to original post) March 20, 2017 at 10:08 pm
4. I've been asking this for weeks and no reporter or politician will answer.
Comey has verified that the Russians didn’t hack any voter data or election machines (the only group to do that was the NSA: http://www.cio.com/article/3148707/security/georgia-says-its-traced-an-attempted-voter-hack-to-dhs.html ).
Even if Trump and his entire cabinet took bribes from, got falling down drunk with and gossiped to Russian ambassadors and oligarchs or even Putin himself, that doesn’t affect the average voter and their decisions. In fact, if they’d known that, it might have swayed them toward Clinton instead of toward Trump. Also, if the FBI can prove any bribery, then that’s certainly criminally actionable, but it’s still not election meddling.
Finally, even if you believe the DNC/Podesta leaks were Russian hacks, the information leaked only revealed the truth. (Note: I believe the DNC was a disgruntled Bernie supporter on the inside who hated that the DNC was favoring Clinton and that Podesta was just stupid when it comes to cyber security).
Some could argue the release of these emails made it impossible for the Democrats to unite, but I think that was impossible before their release. Bernie supporters were already pissed about the Super Delegates, the AP’s pre-California call that she’d gotten the nomination and her refusal to bring in progressives from her VP pick to her surrogates fighting progressives over platform issues. Even without the emails, I don’t believe the progressive wing of the party would ever be enthusiastic about her.
So… to reiterate your question: What DID the Russians do that derailed our election? I can’t figure it out, either.
Blue Meany (263 posts) (Reply to Fawke Em - post #4) March 21, 2017 at 6:39 am
12. That is interesting because during the primary the FBI
issued an alert saying hackers who appeared to be from Russia had hacked the Arizona voter database and had attempted to hack the database in Illinois. At the time, however, the Russian connection was dismissed by IT security experts because, they said, criminal hackers routinely emulate Russian (or other intelligence service) techniques and operate from foreign servers in order to hide their real identities.
I noticed at yesterday’s hearing that everyone studiously avoided any questions about the primary elections.
Fawke Em (3118 posts) (Reply to Blue Meany - post #12) March 22, 2017 at 9:24 pm
24. IT security experts mostly all think the alleged Russian hack of
the DNC is Russian emulated, FWIW. The only three that don’t are those three – CrowdStrike, Fidelis and Mandient – who all work for the government.
jdpriestly (4522 posts) (Reply to original post) March 20, 2017 at 10:51 pm
5. If it is found that they meddled, then the question will be more why they
meddled than whether it changed the election outcome.
Was the meddling in order to get a president they could control to some extent later? Say on trade and environmental issues?No Truth! No Trust! Bernie or Bust!
jerry611 (214 posts) (Reply to jdpriestly - post #5) March 21, 2017 at 12:14 am
7. Accoring to their media….they believed Hillary equals World War 3
There were reports last Summer that the Kremlin was reconstructing bomb shelters in the Ural mountains for government officials.
If you listened to Russian media, they were ramping up the war fears pretty high. They believed Hillary would further apply sanctions, assert herself in Syria and oust Assad, and help expand NATO. They believe this would ultimately lead to a confrontation between Russia and the United States.
Now, that is what their media was saying. As you know, that media is heavily influenced by the Kremlin. So you can’t really trust them. The fear-mongering may have been to serve the Kremlin’s agenda. Putin is also former KGB himself and knows the art of PsyOps as well as anyone. But Russia seems to be very, very angry at the Obama administration for some reason. Putin and Obama could barely stand to be in the same room together. So there was obviously a serious impasse going on there. Putin knew of Hillary when she was secretary of state. He would know whether he could work with her or not. Obviously, he preferred pretty much anyone else. The thing is, if the Kremlin did meddle, it would be a huge gamble. If they meddled and Hillary won, it would at the least throw us back into a Cold War…maybe worse. So something is there that made Putin willing to throw the dice.
Ultimately though…the one person who likely influenced this election more than anyone else was James Comey himself…the man who Democrats have now fallen back in love with.
Wet Blanket (167 posts) (Reply to jerry611 - post #7) March 21, 2017 at 6:52 am
14. Putin felt Obama & Clinton interfered in his 2011 re-election
campaign. Link: http://time.com/4422723/putin-russia-hillary-clinton/
Based on the article, I can’t blame Putin for interfering and working to make sure Herself didn’t get elected.
Also, I believe that Herself, who was already somewhat hawkish, would have felt the need to “prove” that as the first female POTUS that she was just as tough and strong as any make POTUS.
In contrast, whether you like or hate Trump, is foremost a businessman, which means being pragmatic about making deals when necessary.
We should be grateful that Obama in 2008 & Trump in 2016 got elected, because the two people who lost, McCain & Clinton, were the two people most likely to get us into a major war in recent history.The MSM is not our friend. Always wonder what agenda a news story is trying to push.
peacecorps (2527 posts) (Reply to jerry611 - post #7) March 21, 2017 at 7:09 am
15. The love/hate relationship between Comey and Trump/repub & Clinton/DNC is almost
funny to watch.
It is pretty obvious that Putin hates Clinton. So do a lot of us. He preferred almost anyone to her. So did a lot of us. Trump was “anyone”. (Some of us would not go that far, some would.)
They tried to influence our election, as we have done in theirs and others’. (I would not expect any country to just accept foreign meddling and not investigate it.) It would seem they were more ‘successful’ than in the past although the vast majority of the blame for Trump’s victory falls on Clinton’s baggage and terrible campaign. I think Bernie would agree with that.FDR stood for high/progressive taxes, tight regulation of corporations, effective legislation to support strong unions, a strong safety net, fiscal policy that supports full employment rather than austerity, engagement with the rest of the world in terms of trade and diplomacy and the Four Freedoms. Bernie supports the same issues plus an understanding of the danger posed by climate change. Count me as an FDR/Bernie liberal.
jdpriestly (4522 posts) (Reply to jerry611 - post #7) March 21, 2017 at 9:44 am
22. And not without reason.
But then, the fault is ours, the fault is with us Democrats because we did not work hard enough early enough to make sure that Bernie, not Hillary was the candidate.
For me, the Russians are a problem because along with Trump they represent further failure to end reliance on fossil fuels. I don’t want war with Russia, but I do not want a close or dependent or in any significant extent a close relationship with Russia as long as it is dependent for its income on the sale of fossil fuels. We are creating our own Armageddon with our dependence on fossil fuels. Russia encourages the use of fossil fuels.
And Russia has a terrible history of imperialism and control in its relationship with Eastern Europe — something like our interference in South and Central America. I don’t like it when we do it, and I don’t like it when Russia does it. East Germany compared to West Germany is just one example. There is Poland, Roumania, and on and on. Barbed wire fences with gun turrets all along the border. And only on the Eastern side of that border.
So there is a long history that Russia has never dealt with.
If Trump actually succeeds in putting up his wall, that may be as bad as Russia’s iron curtain. Let’s hope not.No Truth! No Trust! Bernie or Bust!
pa28 (119 posts) (Reply to original post) March 20, 2017 at 11:19 pm
6. Repeated use of the misleading terms "meddling" and "hacking" have worked.
A full half of Democrat voters believe the Russians actually tampered with ballot totals to fix the results.
Credit where credit is due I suppose, they’ve accomplished some Fox news level manipulation of gullible there. To believe Russian forces and a Putin conspiracy actually changed the results is the only basis for a news story.
Otherwise all you really have is exposure of the malfeasance and corruption of the DNC, Clinton campaign and influence peddling from the State Department through the Clinton foundation.
The Russians did not make the DNC feed Clinton debate questions or rally the media against the Sanders campaign or sell off State Department favors. They did that all by themselves and got caught. That’s the problem.I would prefer not to.
PaganVoter (61 posts) (Reply to original post) March 21, 2017 at 5:31 am
8. If a country that does not make anything people want per Obama
and is a 2nd rate economic power (Russia), how is it that their hackers could so easily damage an already severely flawed Presidential candidate?
The Russia hacking is just a smoke screen for the Hillbots to use to cover up their incompetence and arrogance that led to their billion dollar fiasco.
Blue Meany (263 posts) (Reply to PaganVoter - post #8) March 21, 2017 at 6:44 am
13. The same way that 2nd rate power, which supposedly couldn't
build a car or a refiigerator, could build up a military that threatened our way of life. Either their military wasn’t really that much of a threat or their economy was not as awful as we were told.
peacecorps (2527 posts) (Reply to PaganVoter - post #8) March 21, 2017 at 7:13 am
17. There is no connection between a country's manufacturing ability and its spying
capability. Indeed having good spies can sometimes make up for a lack of one’s own weakness in science, technology and manufacturing.
retired liberal (1180 posts) (Reply to original post) March 21, 2017 at 6:14 am
9. The real problem is that our government is corrupt to the core.
Anything that our government does, is directly related to that corruption.No matter how cynical you become, it's never enough to keep up. Lily Tomlin
djean111 (3168 posts) (Reply to original post) March 21, 2017 at 6:23 am
10. Not to me. We do it all the time, all over the world.
And I do believe World War 3 would be much more likely with Hillary at the helm. Looks to me like she is trying to start it anyway. There must have been some really fucking awful plans in place, just waiting for her ‘victory”, judging from the cacophony of outrage. Like Blackstone not getting Social Security to play with, and extract fees from – one of Hillary’s plans right there, from a Blackstone guy.
Hillary lost, and the only people surprised are Hillary and the DNC. And now they are doubling down.You think the only reason that people won't vote for a warmongering Third Way fracking-enabling cluster bomb throwing H-1B increasing lying pandering corporate and Wall Street shill who says she has no problem putting abortion rights on the table is because we are mad about Bernie? Um, nope.
JoeFin (418 posts) (Reply to original post) March 21, 2017 at 6:28 am
11. Phyc Ops is very effective but you don't know it
That’s the whole point the victim never knows
Herman4747 (1040 posts) (Reply to original post) March 21, 2017 at 7:11 am
16. I DON'T LIKE ONE COUNTRY MEDDLING IN ANOTHER COUNTRY'S ELECTIONS, PERIOD.
I find it totally unacceptable.
jwirr (2962 posts) (Reply to original post) March 21, 2017 at 7:36 am
Flygirl (2179 posts) (Reply to original post) March 21, 2017 at 8:12 am
19. How Fucking Ironic…since GW was foisted upon us..
many many of us in Florida..have gone directly to the DNC and Democratic Senators and Congress people…at risk to ourselves..some of us even took documentation to Senators..and showed them directly how Vote theft was happening…and was accomplished..some of us sat with these Senator and Congress people’s Attorneys and showed them how the theft was being accomplished..we supplied documents and had mulitutudes of documents….and it went No Where! They did absolutely nothing about it…Zero…except perhaps as we watched the Primary this year..they used the tactics for themselves!!
I know of one voting expert who was threatened by democrats..to shut the fuck up…he was cornered by Dem lawyers and kneed in the groin and told to go away and shit the fuck up!
so spare me this Concern now by Democrats..they can go suck a dick as far as I am concerned!!
people risked everything to get valid proof to the Democratic Party of election Fraud..and those fuckers then used that info for their own theft of our Primary and most likely the GE…just someone or ones fucked with their victory party..or they were too cocky with their own theft of the Primary election that they underestimated the numbers they had to steal the GE with!!
i hope it was Russia that hacked those MTF’ers!! And I hope they continue to do so until the Democratic Party as it exists today is burned to the ground for those cheating corrupt MTF’ers that are running the party today..and Hillary is looking out through bars in a striped suit!
and I mean what I say here…According to the DNC I am a Wife of a Taco Bowl Member!
Selahedin (510 posts) (Reply to original post) March 21, 2017 at 9:27 am
20. I find it mildly depressing that you don't believe
that it mattered if or not that Russia, let alone any other country, meddles in US elections.
Fawke Em (3118 posts) (Reply to Selahedin - post #20) March 22, 2017 at 9:34 pm
25. No, he was questioning whether the meddling, itself, mattered in the sense
that it changed no one’s mind. Many Bernie supporter were Bernie supporters because they were Never Hillary before Bernie threw his hat into the ring.
The emails, if they were hacked by the Russians (again, I don’t believe they were. I believe they were leaked by an insider), did not do anything toward turning Bernie supporters against Hillary. Most of us were never going to vote for her even before Bernie.
MistaP (4105 posts) (Reply to original post) March 21, 2017 at 11:49 am
23. well, what's the latest blastfax? I think it's "they tricked Comey into
reminding voters that Wiener and Abedin were married”http://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentionally-created-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/ (Third Way = Bell Curve)
TwilightSporkle (1644 posts) (Reply to original post) March 23, 2017 at 12:17 am
26. Well, they went back in time and gave Hillary Clinton her 65% unpopularity!
Or… something. Seriously, there’s no useful thoughts in these “arguments.” it’s Democratic Birtherism, in every fucking regard.
What if I want to tell you to leave me and my beloved ones in peace
But you only understand the language of the sword
I let the blade do the talking
So my tongue shall become iron
And my words the mighty roar of war