'if violence isn't the way, then what is?'

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    • #320932
      elias39
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      • Total Posts: 4,573

      https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/30/if-violence-isnt-way-end-racism-america-then-what-is-george-floyd-protests

      A riot is the language of the unheard,” Martin Luther King Jr said in a 1967 speech that is currently reverberating through social media for obvious reasons. “And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that … the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality and humanity.”

    • #320935
      Mick063
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 571

      Golden country your face is so red
      With all of your money your poor can be fed
      You strut around and you flirt with disaster
      Never really carin’ just what comes after
      Well your blacks are dyin’ but your back is still turned
      And your freaks are cryin’ but your back is still turned
      You better stop your hidin’ or your country will burn
      The time has come for you my friend
      To all this ugliness we must put an end
      Before we leave we must make a stand

      Mortgage people you crawl to your homes
      Your security lies in your bed of white foam
      You act concerned but then why turn away
      When a lady was raped on your doorstep today
      Well your blacks are cryin’ but your back is still turned
      And your freaks are dyin’ but your back is still turned
      You better stop your hidin’ or your country will burn
      The time has come for you my friend
      To all this ugliness we must put an end
      Before we leave we must make a stand, oh yeah

      Golden country your face is so red
      With all of your money your poor can be fed
      You strut around and you flirt with disaster
      Never really carin’ just what comes after
      Well your blacks are dyin’ but your back is still turned
      And your freaks are cryin’ but your back is still turned
      You better stop your hidin’ or your country will burn
      The time has come for you my friend
      To all this ugliness we must put an end
      Before we leave we must make a stand

      Before we leave we must make a stand

      "I welcome their hatred" Franklin D Roosevelt

      • #321058
        elias39
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 4,573

        A long time ago! Same Old Shit, Different Century

    • #320977
      RufusTFirefly
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,285

      At least not according to the Violence Prevention Alliance, which is affiliated with Trump’s favorite institution, the World Health Organization:

      “the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, against oneself, another person, or against a group or community, that either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment, or deprivation.”

      The only victims of violence are people. No amount of property is worth the taking of a human life.

    • #320982
      RufusTFirefly
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,285

      Road blocks, work stoppages, sit-down strikes, general strikes, boycotts, vigils.

      All of these would be a lot more feasible and easier to organize if labor unions hadn’t been systematically destroyed by the ruling elite over the past half century or so. But, of course, they knew what they were doing.

      • #321163
        ravensong
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 2,074

        They worship money. It is their god, and their only reason for living.

        Take their money away, take our labor away, and we take away their power over us.

        Historically, prior to say, maybe 1960, violence was sometimes a means for bringing about temporary, and rarely, in exceptions such as Cuba, permanent changes in systems, because the capitalists/oppressors were not technologically superior enough over the citizenry to prevent mass rioting and focused guerrilla warfare resistance groups from wearing them down and negotiating and either compromising or capitulating.

        In modern industrial societies, most especially the US, mob violence only serves as an excuse for fascists to increase their authoritarian control and oppression of the citizenry.  The torches and pitchforks of the current citizenry are no match for the superior weaponry and technology of the war and violence obsessed fascist state/global financial centers.  All those nifty weapons and surveillance toys they develop on a daily basis?  They have been developed in order to protect the plutocrat oligarchy from democracy.

        The unfocused rage and violence in the streets is justifiable, and warranted, but in the long run will only act as a false justification and catalyst for greater fascist oppression over a soft, technologically dependent citizenry, who in the vast majority are unarmed, and unskilled in the use of weaponry and guerrilla warfare strategies and tactics.  The system enslaved citizenry is also completely ignorant of the ways and means of basic survival know how  outside of the capitalist market system.  Few know how to hunt, fish, farm, butcher livestock, get water, etc ad infinitum, outside of the delivery systems of the market.

        To be blunt, we are largely a nation of beer swilling, chip eating urban and suburban TV addicted couch potatoes who don’t know jack shit about practical personal and/or collective defense devices strategies and real world survival, and who have no clue about how to get food and safe hydration from anywhere except a grocery store or McDonald’s.

        The current anarchist/communist intelligentsia is a largely urban/suburban collective of naive creampuffs who appear to believe they can overthrow the system through random violence and destruction that will cause chaos, leading to the overthrow of technologically advanced fascist systems.

        Reality is, the overwhelming majority of the American left is clueless, unarmed, and unskilled in real world survival skills outside of urban/suburban delivery systems.  The pizza guy has not shown up for a week….does anyone know how to catch, butcher, and cook rats and pigeons on an open fire?

        In contrast, the American RW is very well armed, significantly more rural, and significantly more adept at real world survival.

        Plutocrat fascist Big Brother has set a trap, and his prey is unsuspectingly walking right into it.

        Surround them, put them under total non-violent economic embargo and siege.  Like you said, @RufusTFirefly

        “Road blocks, work stoppages, sit-down strikes, general strikes, boycotts, vigils.

        All of these would be a lot more feasible and easier to organize if labor unions hadn’t been systematically destroyed by the ruling elite over the past half century or so. But, of course, they knew what they were doing”.

        It won’t be easy, but it has a 100% better chance of succeeding in this present age of drones, rockets, and mass surveillance than random, disorganized violence and chaos.

        Hail Freedonia!

        “A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by a majority.” ~ Booker T. Washington

        The truth is, there’s no such thing as being “anti-Fascist.” Either you are a decent human being with a conscience, or you are a fascist.
        ~ Unknown

        • #321181
          Voltairine
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 1,760

          I also know how insufferable some cartoon anarchists of the urban “scene” can be, and make a note of their young age and still very narrow life experience, but really have more experience of hanging out with the rural hippie types, who get along just fine with the rednecks, and I like the taste of well cooked road kill fox as much as the next guy. And I’ve seen very many of the urban anarchist youth developing close ties with the rural guys, learning skills and sound attitudes.

          Thumb rule of ecovillage hippies: develop very good relations with the rest of local community, especially with hunting clubs. The main worry of these folks is not about themselves, but about how they can best help the urban brothers and sisters in times of trouble, as well as how to stop urban centers of power from polluting their land and water.

          Aloha!

          • #321204
            ravensong
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 2,074

            beginning several decades ago, compromised of some the wisest folks on the planet, evolved sisters and brothers who I am still learning to process and understand many years after experjencing living a way they tried to teach me to live through word and example.  They just showed up n the place where I grew up one day.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Family

             

            “A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by a majority.” ~ Booker T. Washington

            The truth is, there’s no such thing as being “anti-Fascist.” Either you are a decent human being with a conscience, or you are a fascist.
            ~ Unknown

            • #321232
              Voltairine
              Participant
              • Total Posts: 1,760

              Was astonished to see how well practical anarchism that learns a lot from indigenous traditions works in practice. The challenge is to solve the scaling problem and scale that experience to global society.

              I think that problem is primarily a math problem… not an easy one, but collectively we’ve been doing good progress towards solving it. Our collective emotional problems – which Rainbow Magic has many ways to sooth and heal on smaller scale – can’t be healed for good unless there’s alternative system available to channel our emotional energies into, to nourish and grow.

              Aloha!

    • #320989
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 13,652

      Ever. It’s never happened. Power cedes nothing without a demand, and without fearing the potential consequences of not giving way.

      I’m not going to condemn the protesters or even the looters, not when banksters loot trillions and police murder citizens and start the violence themselves. I just saw the latter in downtown Cleveland today. A few people in the crowd threw water bottles. Police claim they were rocks, but they lie all the damned time and I know that area–there are no rocks lying around in front of the Justice Center. The cops are lying through their teeth. Again.

      If people want to stop the violence right away, then demand the arrest and conviction of all 4 of those Minneapolis cops and stop complaining about property damage.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      If Democrats don’t stand for the people, why should people stand for them?--Jim Hightower

      • #321034
        Cold Mountain Trail
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 8,440

        What were the good results of the riots after the MLK assassination?

        The break-up of the movement, murder & neutralization of black activists & activism generally, yuppies, neo-liberalism, Reagan.

        The Volker recession & increased poverty.

        And the shitshow we live in today.

         

         

        • #321159
          Ohio Barbarian
          Moderator
          • Total Posts: 13,652

          Even after they were passed, the Southern governors only enforced them because LBJ threatened to send in the tanks.

          It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

          If Democrats don’t stand for the people, why should people stand for them?--Jim Hightower

          • #321335
            Cold Mountain Trail
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 8,440

            The violence before the civil rights act (1964) =

            –The violence of the Southern resistance to the civil rights movement, including local government violence.  The original civil rights movement was 99% peaceful, very well organized, well-disciplined, & essentially shocked the nation when peaceful protest was met with disproportionate levels of violence.

            –The violence of the Kennedy assassination.  LBJ passed the civil rights act (1964) in the wake of the assassination.  And he had been a heavy hitter in the senate prior to becoming president, & a master arm-twister.

            https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/19/john-f-kennedy-assassination-racial-equality-jfk

             

            What’s going on today is more like the violence following the King assassination, which turned white america, or middle class america, fearful and less amenable to further change.  More like the chaos at the end of Weimar.  It’s not well-organized generally, it’s not disciplined.  And that chaotic, ‘scary’ take is what’s being pushed in a lot of the media as well.  And of course, by the orange president & (I assume) his funders.

            Our present trajectory can mostly be traced back to the king assassination.

            After the assassination, they set up & killed promising young black leaders (e.g. fred hampton), derailed others and black communities generally with e.g. drugs (huey newton) and heavy infiltration of movements.  all ‘softer’ tactics still in use today.  The violence became mostly covert rather than overt.   And white america didn’t care much, because there’d been the civil rights act & the voting rights act & by the perception of white america, things had gotten worse, not better.  Overgeneralizing here, but a lot of white america was ready for a counter-revolution.  Bad economy in the 70s just made things worse and middle america more nervous about social change (stagflation).

             

             

      • #321054
        jerry611
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        • Total Posts: 864
    • #321002
      incognito
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,696

      you’re left with no other choice but to answer government/police with the same violence they inflict on the citizens… mostly black citizens. Peaceful protests are a waste of time. They’re just ignored. They’re meaningless in 2020. We have to start giving what we get. An eye for an eye. They’re just pushing to see exactly how much violence, murder, inequality, class warfare we’ll take/they can get away with. Then… they still have the fucking  military they unleash on us.

    • #321004
      Utopian Leftist
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 400

      said that the greatest form of violence is poverty.

      Just like systemic racism in this country we have now systemic poverty, which like Capitalism is unsustainable.

      Yet the powers that be continue to shove their puppets down our throats. They simply do not care that the train is running off the tracks.

      "All fascism is a result of a failure of the left to provide a viable alternative." ~ Trotsky

    • #321005
      Voltairine
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,760

      Denying a hungry man food and shelter you don’t need is violence.

      Responding to institutional violence with violence is never good, it can be at most a necessary evil.

      What is the way? As the great American Philosopher says, rather than to fight the existing system, build a system to replace it. No, I’m not condemning this rebellion against the ruling class in any way. Things happen as they do. But even if violent revolution manages to topple the existing system, it doesn’t answer the question: What do we do the day after the Revolution?

      And that question faces us each day.

      Aloha!

    • #321006
      Jan Boehmerman
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 2,985
    • #321035
      Cold Mountain Trail
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 8,440

      and then they killed him.

      and there were days of rioting that produced nothing positive.

       

    • #321061
      jerry611
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 864

      Violence won’t fix racism. Violence won’t make a racist person change their mind. So if your goal is to get society as a whole to change its thinking and perception…this isn’t the way to do it. It’s not going to work.

      There is also no clear message. Yeah there is the issue of police violence and race. But beyond that, no one seems to have any idea how to solve this problem. Not even the protesters seem to have any consensus on how to solve it. What we see going on here is just anger directed at “the system.” Even thought “the system” is not even well defined.

    • #321120
      Voltairine
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,760

      Racism is element of class society and class war, which this rebellion is all about. There is a already a fair degree of consensus across wide sections of society that UBI can be practical solution to most vital and immediate issues.

      System = state capitalism.

      Aloha!

    • #321167
      bazukhov
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,604

      It’s mob mentality not a revolution aimed to change anything.

      Tell me, great captain, how do the angels sleep when the devil leaves his porch light on? Tom Waites

    • #321174
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,358

      I don’t think there is a specific way, right or wrong – I think it has come down to a reckoning.  Centuries of oppression and police violence against unarmed black people is a major driving force.  The other is that the fact that the coronavirus is hitting them so much harder is being ignored, generational poverty (dating back even to the years of slavery) has been ignored, failing education, the war on drugs, racial profiling – and so on and so forth.  Then there is the economic situation to top it all off – people are hungry – and when they are hungry they will do desperate things.  One thing I learned well as a young boy is that hunger will tame a lion – but it can also enrage it.

      I am not a pacifist and I am not willing to say that any violence is wrong or unnecessary.  Violence begets violence – and it is how our Country started.  Some times it is.  So many like to forget that our history is full of such… dating all the way back to the “settling” of this land by white invaders.  The Native American tribes were driven almost to non-existence.  Then the French and Indian war, the revolutionary war, the war of 1812… the list goes on.  In the last century or so, we have seen little of that in our own land, but that seems likely to change.  It is now being proven, once again, that those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable.  These protests are the tip of the iceberg, as anger about the economic and healthcare situation continues to grow and federal authorities do nothing, it will get worse.

      To clarify – I am not supporting those wars specifically, but every living being has a right to fight for its own existence and well being.

      We are in for interesting times – and for a long, hard summer.  There is no leadership to address this effectively – and THAT is why it will not get better any time soon.  Obama did nothing and Trump just makes every damn thing worse.

      • #321203
        jerry611
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 864

        No leadership but also no unified voice on the side of the protesters. You ask these protesters what they want and none of them give a consistent answer. Reporters routinely ask them why they are angry and why are they out there and none of them give the same answer. They are just mad and not exactly sure what they are mad at or how it should change.

        That’s one of the biggest problems with many of the race protests is the lack of a clear message and goal. I know some here talk about UBI and such. But none of these protesters are talking about that. Literally none of them. There is no unified message of what these protesters want. So when elites and older people see this play out they simply assume these are spoiled, entitled youths with too much time on their hands and who need a job or go back to school. Without a unified message, the protests are a waste of time and will fall on deaf ears. And that’s happening right now. When you got thousands of voices all screaming something different, no one can hear anyone.

        Justice for George Flyod? OK. The officer who did it is being charged. More charges are likely. Unfortunately the justice system works very slow. And there is no way to really speed that up. It will be months and perhaps years before the case goes to trial. But that’s the system. Even though we see the video and determine that guilt is not in doubt, it doesn’t matter. We are not a dictatorship that can just snap a finger and declare someone guilty. Due process has to play out. The government moves the case forward, but the government doesn’t control the pace. Prosecutors would love to just resolve this tomorrow. They can’t.

        Plus rushing cases and prosecutions to appease a mob can screw up the case. It’s done so many times in the past. Do you want Derek Chauvin to walk because the case got rushed and bungled, or do you want the prosecution to make sure they do this right?

        • #321263
          Voltairine
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 1,760

          that nobody says anything about UBI? Because some stupid corporate media “journalist” asks stupid and condescending questions from some people, and editors then choose least media savvy “protestor voices” to “represent” the Other?

          Did the crowd that stormed Bastille have unified voice of demands?

          Here’s a consensus answer to your question about what do we want: “Dear Karen of CNN, for starters we want your thugs to stop killing and looting us. We now understand better than before that you and your thugs wont stop killing and looting us unless we smash this system and build something better in place. What exactly, we need to think carefully and have good talk to reach consensus about how to organize a society that is good for all of us.”

          Aloha!

    • #321185
      Voltairine
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,760

      like Clinton made worse what Reagan started.

      Trump is the Great Accelerator, the weird piece that doesn’t really fit the machinery but makes it go “clunk” when His Incompetence tries to imitate former POTUSes who knew how to make things worse with great skill and determination while keeping up the appearence of normality.

      Aloha!

    • #321226
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,358

      Not against people, anyway. You know as well as I do though, that this has been going on for far too long – and the cops typically get away with it, with, at most, a slap on the wrist. That isn’t going to cut it this time. I’m not saying “speed up the legal process” it is what it is – and while I believe it needs some serious reform – I am no authority on the subject.

      As for a unified message – they often said the same thing about the occupy protestors. Many say the same thing now about the extinction rebellion protestors. Here is the thing though – even if they HAD a unified message, no one who can do a damn thing about it is actually listening. The media and the politicians are spinning it in whatever way they think will best serve their own agenda – and that agenda isn’t mine – and I really doubt it is yours either. It is not that of the American people.

      They need to take measures to reform our criminal justice system – and in many cases that is going to mean much harsher penalties and stricter training for police. Much stricter enforcement of the law – particularly when POLICE are breaking it. UBI and healthcare also need to be addressed – along with the housing situation. If none of this happens – and we have little reason to believe it will – then these things will continue. What is happening right now will eventually fade, but it will only take one more spark to ignite it once again into something even bigger. Sooner or later, it will come to civil war, to the extent that one is even possible in today’s America.

      We have long been headed in that direction – the ideological divide is too extreme – and minorities have been ignored and oppressed for far too long by the single political party that passes all the shitty legislation. Worse still, Trump is rather extreme on the authoritarian side, his heavy handed tactics, apparent madness and eagerness to incite shit, is going to cause even more trouble.

      I could be wrong about this fading, too. This could very well be the straw that breaks the camels back, so to speak. I am still waiting for the adults to show up and say “Okay, lets do something about this, here is what we do…” Instead of some asshole saying “When the looting starts, the shooting starts, meanwhile I and my colleagues will be hiding in our bunkers with air conditioning, hundred dollar ice cream – and thousand dollar meals at our favorite little private restaurants. Oh yeah, we also have the best healthcare in the world, absurd salaries, benefits like you wouldn’t believe… and did I mention? We vote on raising our own salaries!” More and more, it is becoming apparent that it really IS a class war – and if you are with the “law and order side” (by which I mean Trump, the powers that be in general, etc.) then you are on the wrong side of history.

    • #321230
      Betty Karlson
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 465

      suppressing it is postponing it. You had better have a plan (a working one, with actual quick results) before that postponement runs out. Because at that point, violence will still be the only way, and it has pent up.

      • #321329
        Cold Mountain Trail
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 8,440

        “Because at that point, violence will still be the only way, and it has pent up.”

        –No matter how pent up, it can all turn on a dime, depending on what happens.  It’s not a physical force, like the build-up of pressure in a tea kettle.

        It’s a mental force; change your mind, change the pressure

        and a social force; change society, change the pressure (& change society would include making people more secure economically)

    • #321234
      Hobbit709
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,686

      Whether that force came from within or external forces doesn’t alter that fact.

      I don't waste my time teaching pigs to sing.

      • #321255
        Utopian Leftist
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 400

        “Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.

        — Frederick Douglass

        "All fascism is a result of a failure of the left to provide a viable alternative." ~ Trotsky

    • #321312
      MizzGrizz
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,845

      ..to suppress these demonstrations quickly.

      So where do we go after that?What do we do?

       

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