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Home Main Forums General Discussion If you doubt limits of govt propaganda, remember Lynch and Tillman.

  • madfloridian (1874 posts)
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    If you doubt limits of govt propaganda, remember Lynch and Tillman.

    I don’t believe much in our media these days. Remember Jessica Lynch, Pat Tillman?

    The media outlets are always interfering in our political campaigns, pushing candidates to sound more militant. I don’t trust much of the reporting, I don’t even believe the polls right now.

    I have strong feelings about how the Hillary campaign and our government are blaming her loss on the Russians.   It’s seems odd and it came from nowhere, but it really is working on so many people.   I do not have any way of proving they didn’t hack the campaign, and I imagine there’s a story that would be somewhere in the middle.

    Hillary lost her campaign on her own.  She antagonized about half the party, and her surrogates and supporters are still putting us down.    She is failing to take responsibility for her own behavior.

    I have been angry this primary and election.   I have lost trust in many people.   If I question the Russian involvement too much I am branded as many things…the most recent is from a so-called progressive writer.  He called us Kremlin cheerleaders.

    Just when I think I might be over-reacting, I remember how our media outlets made up stories about Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillman. There were other examples but these were the most outrageous. It shows the news spokesmen will say and do anything required to get results desired by their owners.

    They needed to glorify and defend a bogged down Iraq war.

    Jessica Lynch had her say in a 2007 congressional hearing.

    ‘Little girl Rambo’ decries US propaganda

    The former US private Jessica Lynch today condemned what she said were Pentagon efforts to turn her into a “little girl Rambo”, and accused military chiefs of using “elaborate tales” to try to make her into a hero of the Iraq war.

    Speaking at a congressional hearing on the use of misleading information, an emotional Ms Lynch described how she suffered horrific injuries when her vehicle was hit by a rocket near the Iraqi town of Nasiriya in March 2003, killing several of her companions.

    She was angry they tried to make her into a hero, she said the real heroes were those who rescued her.

    Initial reports also suggested that Ms Lynch had been abused after she came round in the hospital. She said the reports were lies: she had been treated well and the Iraqis had tried to return her to US forces.

    “The nurses tried to soothe me and return me,” she told the hearing, adding that she objected to the way in which the US military had portrayed her.

    “American people don’t need to be told elaborate tales” about US forces, she said

    So true. We don’t need to be told lies about anything.

    More about Jessica from journalist Greg Mitchell:

    When Media Promoted Jessica Lynch ‘Propaganda’

    It wasn’t until early May 2003 that the story really fell apart, thanks largely to a Toronto Star reporter named Mitch Potter, whose sources told him that actually Lynch had been well cared for at the hospital, that her captors had left up to two days before the raid and that actually fire from U.S. forces had prevented hospital staffers from loading her in an ambulance. The BBC soon confirmed much of this scenario.

    The Post corrective appeared a few weeks later. On June 20, 2003, Nicholas Kristof in his New York Times column wrote:

    “Pfc. Jessica Lynch did not mow down Iraqis until her ammo ran out, was not shot and apparently was not plucked from behind enemy lines by U.S. commandos braving a firefight. It looks as if the first accounts of the rescue were embellished, like the imminent threat from W.M.D., and like wartime pronouncements about an uprising in Basra and imminent defections of generals. There’s a pattern: we were misled…

    …”Ms. Lynch is still a hero in my book, and it was unnecessary for officials to try to turn her into a Hollywood caricature. As a citizen, I deeply resent my government trying to spin me like a Ping-Pong ball….

    And so do I. I resent it very much.  I resent the childish name-calling when  I question such propaganda.

    And Pat Tillman couldn’t speak for himself, but his irate family did so very effectively.

    From Mother Jones 2010:

    Pat Tillman’s War

    Pat Tillman’s family says “fuck” a lot. And who can blame them? Pat’s youngest brother, at the memorial service for the fallen NFL-star-turned-soldier, follows Maria Shriver’s “Pat is with God now” rhetoric with, “Pat would want me to say this: He’s not with God, he’s fucking dead.” A year later, Pat Tillman Sr. writes a blistering letter to the military brass who continued to stonewall the investigation into his son’s death signed, “Fuck you…and yours.” Such is the seething flavor of director Amir Bar-Lev’s The Tillman Story (open today at select theaters), which paints a striking portrait of Pat Tillman’s devoted and outraged family’s search for the truth behind his death in eastern Afghanistan in April 2004.

    ….The documentary gives us what we the public want when it comes to heroes—a deeper look at someone who was so instantly an icon of war. Though he was deified in death under false pretenses and for political gain—and he specifically told the military he didn’t want a military burial or any military involvement in his death—he, and his family, turned out to be exactly what America needed, because they take absolutely no bullshit, from Shriver, Donald Rumsfeld, anyone. And Tillman’s last words? The soldier with him at the time poignantly recalls how Tillman saved his life even while his screams couldn’t spare his own. To his buddies but 40 yards away who were unloading artillery into his chest and head he screamed, “I’m fucking Pat Tillman, why are you shooting at me? I’m fucking Pat Tillman!”

    We don’t have to swallow the propaganda, but all too often we do. I found this statement in a report from Stanford.

    Propaganda in War Reporting on the U.S. War in Iraq

    …A government cannot have power if it does not have the support of the public. In order to gain support of the public propaganda is used to promote the government and the ideals behind it. The issues concerning propaganda are complex and numerous but it is known that propaganda can be one of the main weapons used in psychological warfare and can significantly affect the outcome of a war. Propaganda can influence people to believe a certain ideology whether that ideology is right or wrong…

    And I will never forget how we shock and awe bombed Iraq on TV, and yet the only real truth-telling we saw on the impact….was not from our news stations who whitewashed it all.

    It was from the courageous and intelligent Iraqi bloggers

    This is from a blogger I will never forget. Riverbend, a computer expert and programmer in Baghdad.

    I remember Baghdad before the war- one could live anywhere. We didn’t know what our neighbors were- we didn’t care. No one asked about religion or sect. No one bothered with what was considered a trivial topic: are you Sunni or Shia? You only asked something like that if you were uncouth and backward. Our lives revolve around it now. Our existence depends on hiding it or highlighting it- depending on the group of masked men who stop you or raid your home in the middle of the night.

    On a personal note, we’ve finally decided to leave. I guess I’ve known we would be leaving for a while now. We discussed it as a family dozens of times. At first, someone would suggest it tentatively because, it was just a preposterous idea- leaving ones home and extended family- leaving ones country- and to what? To where?

    I know they went to Syria, as their journey is described in her blog.   And then her latest blog says she went on to another country and another before the heavy fighting in Syria began.

    Finally, after all is said and done, we shouldn’t forget what this was about – making America safer… And are you safer Americans? If you are, why is it that we hear more and more about attacks on your embassies and diplomats? Why is it that you are constantly warned to not go to this country or that one? Is it better now, ten years down the line? Do you feel safer, with hundreds of thousands of Iraqis out of the way (granted half of them were women and children, but children grow up, right?)?

    And what happened to Riverbend and my family? I eventually moved from Syria. I moved before the heavy fighting, before it got ugly. That’s how fortunate I was. I moved to another country nearby, stayed almost a year, and then made another move to a third Arab country with the hope that, this time, it’ll stick until… Until when? Even the pessimists aren’t sure anymore. When will things improve? When will be able to live normally? How long will it take?

    So I guess the way I feel right now is that I don’t believe much of anything I see on TV news, I mostly believed our president until he started going along with Hillary on everything.

    And speaking of Syria….I would to know someday..to actually see proof of what really happened there.   Someday I would like to see proof one way or the other about whether the primary was lost by Bernie and if the election was really lost by Hillary.  I doubt we are getting the truth on either.

    Remember the web of lies spun around Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillman.  A government capable of such as that is certainly not above telling me some more lies.

     

     

     

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    If a person is required to be loyal to a political party and not question their stands on issues, then any semblance of real truth is lost. https://twitter.com/madfloridian

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    • TRex (2320 posts)
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      1. Truth is the first victim of war.

      The MIC has a continuous revenue stream, seems nobody cares to stop them.

      We can thank the rich for one thing - times are changing due to the silent depression in the working class. I don't think the rich will be happy with the changes, but they forced it upon themselves through greed and avarice.
      • madfloridian (1874 posts)
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        2. I'm not sure we can stop them.

        The Iraq invasion defined us as a nation that would lie to control another country.  I thought maybe the neocon faction of the party would learn from the failure there…but no they did not.  They are still changing the face of the Middle East without a single qualm of life and death issues.

        I can not forgive or forget those who voted to allow such invasions and democracy spreading.

         

        If a person is required to be loyal to a political party and not question their stands on issues, then any semblance of real truth is lost. https://twitter.com/madfloridian
        • ASimpleGame (930 posts)
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          14. I'm not sure they did fail in their own estimation.

          They seem to be as happy or happier with chaos as they would be with complete control.  Makes me wonder what their real goal was or if they are just happy with what they got.  Chaos does seem to spread faster and require more bombs than control would.

          But why isn’t Europe mad at us for creating the refugee situation they have to deal with?  Or are they and we just don’t hear about it.

          P.S. on edit: Thanks for the well written and informative OP.  I enjoyed it.

          • madfloridian (1874 posts)
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            16. You're probably right. Their goal as stated by Clark was to do it to 7 countries

            in five years.   Don’t like the Middle East.  Just spread democracy at gun point.   So in the respect of spreading chaos, they succeeded big time.

            I’m very bitter about what we did to those countries when it is none of our business.

            :hi:

             

             

             

             

             

             

             

            If a person is required to be loyal to a political party and not question their stands on issues, then any semblance of real truth is lost. https://twitter.com/madfloridian
            • ASimpleGame (930 posts)
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              19. I agree with with you about what we did to those countries, and add to that

              what we also did to our own country.  We could have had some nice things with all the money we have spent over there, not to mention the lives lost and ruined.  And then there is what is going on in Europe now with the refugees.  But I will stop here because JPR doesn’t have enough white space to list all of the effects from our causes in the Middle East.

              But apparently our arms factories are still not at full capacity because we seem to want an excuse to use some bombs on Russia too.

        • awoke in 2003 (410 posts)
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          22. What failure?

          A few of them got richer, which was the goal. They don’t care how many die, as long as they profit.

          Call me Owen
        • Earth artist (659 posts)
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          26. So right Madfloridian

          This has nothing to do with Russia and all those people here who try to make it about Russia love and Putin love wake the F up

          This is about a country that Lied us into Vietnam, than Cambodia killing millions, and to this day it is killing people.

          It is about lying our way through central and South America with the claim of drugs, who was buying those drugs?

          It is about lying about why we were training terrorists in afganistan than starting the line about how terrible the taliban were.

          it is about 911 with planes flown by saudis, and a whole bunch of security gone missing for the day.

          It is about invading afganistan Iraq,Syria , Somalia, Libya, all based on the same lies. Oh terrible leaders, they kill people they torture people. The reality they have our oil!  The reality is we kill and torture our own people ask any black man or native person in this country.

          mostly ask yourselves what right do we have to play human rights monitor he when we are tortures?

          Yet if you say anything it is YOU ARE DEFENDING ASSAD! SADAM! PUTIN!

          when will we learn when will we take responsibility for the genicide?

      • Enthusiast (8383 posts)
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        47. Perpetual war results in perpetual lies.

        "The NSA’s capability at any time could be turned around on the American people, and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything. There would be no place to hide."  Frank Church
        • TRex (2320 posts)
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          57. But it helps put the Stock Market at around 20k.

          And, sadly, tragically, that is all the PTB care about. Money and power.

          We can thank the rich for one thing - times are changing due to the silent depression in the working class. I don't think the rich will be happy with the changes, but they forced it upon themselves through greed and avarice.
          • Enthusiast (8383 posts)
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            60. Karma could bite them in the ass. I fear it might take the rest of us with them.

            "The NSA’s capability at any time could be turned around on the American people, and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything. There would be no place to hide."  Frank Church
    • sabrina (5959 posts)
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      3. I was just thinking of Jessica Lynch a few days ago. In the end she really was

      a hero because she could have remained silent but she didn’t. She was just 18 years old at the time. I was worried about her when she debunked their so carefully staged propaganda Video.

      I will never forget Pat Tillman, what they did to that family was criminal, and of course to him.

      People like Lynch and Tillman were the true heroes, the ones who would not let the lies stand. That possibly caused Pat Tillman’s death.

      And I remember Riverbend and how we used to look forward to her blogs which were one of the few glimpses we had into the REAL IRAQ since our media wasn’t allowed to tell anything but lies and they did, and imo, knowingly.

      Whenever a journalist did tell the truth they were targeted and demoted or fired.

      Like you I trust nothing I hear on the MSM.

      I don’t know if you remember the Rendon Group mad?

      They were hired by the Bush cabal to ‘sell the war’ to the American people.

      They did it by passing propaganda to the MSM, like Judith Miller.

      I still that one day those who lied us into these awful wars will be held accountable.

      • madfloridian (1874 posts)
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        4. Oh, I remember John Rendon. Gave Kuwaitis U.S. flags to wave.

        https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/the-man-who-sold-the-iraq-wars/

        John Rendon of the Rendon Group boasted in 1996 to cadets at the Air Force Academy that he had given Kuwaitis US flags to wave.

        “I am not a national security strategist or a military tactician,” Rendon said. “I am a politician, and a person who uses communication to meet public policy or corporate policy objectives. In fact, I am an information warrior and a perception manager.” He reminded the Air Force cadets that when victorious troops rolled into Kuwait City at the end of the first war in the Persian Gulf, they were greeted by hundreds of Kuwaitis waving small American flags. The scene, flashed around the world on television screens, sent the message that U.S. Marines were being welcomed in Kuwait as liberating heroes.

        “Did you ever stop to wonder,” Rendon asked, “how the people of Kuwait City, after being held hostage for seven long and painful months, were able to get hand-held American, and for that matter, the flags of other coalition countries?” He paused for effect. “Well, you now know the answer. That was one of my jobs then.”

        If a person is required to be loyal to a political party and not question their stands on issues, then any semblance of real truth is lost. https://twitter.com/madfloridian
        • sabrina (5959 posts)
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          37. "In fact, I am an information warrior and a perception manager"

          I read somewhere back then that Rendon was a Democrat. That, at the time, was a shock to me.

          I remember too that his group was paid millions to ‘sell the war in Iraq’.

          We are  constantly exposed to fake news and btw, I did wonder vaguely at the time where the Kuwaitis got all those flags, but dismissed the thought since I couldn’t think of a reasonable explanation.

           

          • awoke in 2003 (410 posts)
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            79. War

            crosses political parties.

            Call me Owen
      • tonyl (838 posts)
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        42. I have often wondered why people would join the army, I too, was aware

        of the Jessica Lynch story, and Pat Tillman’s as well. I understand that poor people would join the army because its a job, but Tillman really didn’t need to, did he ? or did he just get caught up in the patriotic fervor and hype surrounding the wars ? at any rate, in Pat Tillman’s case, it cost him his life.

        I have always held the view that joining ANY kind of military organisation, army, navy, air force etc is an act that surrenders control of your own actions and makes it inevitable that you would be held ‘accountable’ for refusing to kill. So, why would you join ?!!!  – it is also true, that, in any war, the first casualty is truth. Inevitably the untruths that are propagated by cynical politicians and generals tend to be what ends up getting people killed and perpetuating evil. Just imagine how the world would be if cynical politicians could NOT call upon armed forces to do their bidding, John Lennon would be smiling!.

        In an effort to try to highlight that, because we, each, are accountable to a higher cause and must abjure killing, I wrote the OP that I entitled ‘What I learned from Tolstoy’ and, in my clumsy way found it difficult to say what should be said; ‘don’t join the army, navy, or any such organisation, you could be asked to kill’ and it is this dictum that should be inculcated in every child until a critical mass is achieved that allows the nation to join the ranks of the civilised. 

        Because you cant have integrity occasionally
        • sabrina (5959 posts)
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          59. In Tillman's case, he was caught up in the propaganda after 9/11 which was

          intense here. Iow I don’t think he would ever have joined the military had he not felt his country was under attack. And it wasn’t long apparently, that he realized it was all propaganda. While he was over there he began reading Noam Chomsky and studying more about our wars, he had, foolishly perhaps, talked about his changing feelings about Iraq, and planned to meet with people who were against the war when he returned. That would have been devastating for Bush, they had used his status as a football hero who supported the war. For him to return as an anti-war protester right in the middle of the election, wasn’t a good thing for them. His family believes his death was not an accident.

          Jessica Lynch was very young just 18 I believe. Her family was poor, joining the military, if we are not at war, gives people opportunities they wouldn’t normally have, like money for college etc.

          I am with you, though, I wish no one, in any country, would join the military and if our leaders want to fight, let them do it the old fashioned way, something we suggested with Bush and Saddam.  But the leaders these days, never go to war, nor do most of their children. Our wars are to benefit a very few individuals.

      • Enthusiast (8383 posts)
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        48. Huge Plus One on Jessica Lynch! Now she actually is a hero.

        Because she could have remained silent but she didn’t.

        "The NSA’s capability at any time could be turned around on the American people, and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything. There would be no place to hide."  Frank Church
    • Flygirl (2633 posts)
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      5. Thank you Madflo for remembering this…may I add…

      that the Soldiers that supposedly “Saved” Lynch..used Rubber bullets…and Four of the six of them died in questionable means…one in his backyard in Calif at a family reunion upon his return home..was shot by gun fire over the family fence in his parents backyard..while the barbecue reunion of friends and family was commencing .

      one of the others was in Virginia I believe ( if memory serves me) and his first day home he was driving to his fiancé ‘S home  and supposedly drove off a cliff to his death..a road he was very familiar with..

      another one was sent from Iraq to Afghanistan..and died the first day in Afghanistan or close to his first day…I posted this info so many times while it was all happening…and never thought I would forget the details..but it seems I have forgotten much…but I will never forget that these young men were the “collateral damage ” of our government lies!!

      As I do not remember all of the details…I know 4 of 6 these young men died and it was too much of a coincidence  to be a coincidence.. I am sure when Jessica returned stateside she learned of their deaths…

      it made me sick to my stomach thhhat this was being done in my name by my government!!

      According to the DNC I am a Wife of a Taco Bowl Member!
      • madfloridian (1874 posts)
        Profile photo of madfloridian Donor

        6. I remember that.

        I have many files saved from years ago.   I will do a search for it.   It was really weird stuff.

         

        If a person is required to be loyal to a political party and not question their stands on issues, then any semblance of real truth is lost. https://twitter.com/madfloridian
        • Flygirl (2633 posts)
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          11. I had it all in files

          but lost it all in storm Sandy..

          can only go on memory now…and of course…most of it has all been scrubbed now..as have many of the suspicious deaths of anyone surrounding our government…

          But I specifically remember these young men having their lives taken very suspiciously..as a coverup to our governments propaganda and outright filthy lies!

          Tillman always got to my heart..as my husband Played a Professional Sport  in Kansas City…we lived there 16 years…and we were always very close with many of the KC Chiefs football players..

          but I also know Lamar Hunt was the owner until his death..and his ties to the CIA along with his brother were legendary …now the Grandson runs the team…

          Tillman was murdered…of that I have zero doubt…

          And Jessica was used in every way…I hope she is living peacefully..as peacefully as she possibly can..

          As a mother of a son, I also have no doubt Mrs Tillman will never have peace in her heart…she knows too much to ever live in peace…so sad…and so unessesary…one can not have peace when we wake up and know how corrupt our government is…and the corruptness stole your child.

          Both Mrs Tillman and Jessica were extremely Brave to go before Congress..but they were also pigeon holed in their testimony…but they both pushed as hard as they were allowed to.

          According to the DNC I am a Wife of a Taco Bowl Member!
          • madfloridian (1874 posts)
            Profile photo of madfloridian Donor

            17. Did not realize you were damaged from Sandy.

            That was so tragic a storm.

            If a person is required to be loyal to a political party and not question their stands on issues, then any semblance of real truth is lost. https://twitter.com/madfloridian
            • Flygirl (2633 posts)
              Profile photo of Flygirl

              20. I am a snowbird …and I was one of the lucky..

              I had a second home in Florida to stay while my home on the jersey shore was restored.

              No thanks to Obama and Christy who did nothing to hold the insurance corps accountable! I was as most were severely screwed by insurance companies!! But nonetheless..I was more fortunate than many..I had a second home to escape to….While major repairs and rebuilding took place….most did not!!

              According to the DNC I am a Wife of a Taco Bowl Member!
              • Enthusiast (8383 posts)
                Profile photo of Enthusiast Donor

                49. Plus One!

                "The NSA’s capability at any time could be turned around on the American people, and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything. There would be no place to hide."  Frank Church
              • Mick Lady (174 posts)
                Profile photo of Mick Lady

                85. So sorry Flygirl!

                Our family lost a vacation home in Manasquan, and it was over 120 years old! The family was devastated! We did rebuild, but it will never be the same. Don’t get me started on insurance companies! Christy was worthless.

                Again, I’m so sorry for your loss, and those files!

                What fresh hell is this?
      • madfloridian (1874 posts)
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        9. I did find this at Stars and Stripes about one soldier.

        He later died in Afghanistan.

        https://www.stripes.com/news/army/soldier-who-helped-in-jessica-lynch-rescue-dies-after-afghanistan-attack-1.283362

        That’s not the article I’m thinking about.  There was one from a site I’m not sure I trust, so still looking.

        If a person is required to be loyal to a political party and not question their stands on issues, then any semblance of real truth is lost. https://twitter.com/madfloridian
      • sabrina (5959 posts)
        Profile photo of sabrina Moderator Emeritus

        38. I didn't know that, thanks for that information, Flygirl. What a terrible

        tragedy, one of so many, many tragedies.

    • Achilles 6630507 (153 posts)
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      7. + a million

      Who could forget the gripping testimony of the lovely Nayirah al-Ṣabaḥ, daughter of Saud Al-Sabah, the Kuwaiti ambassador to the US

      Nayirah al-Ṣabaḥ (Arabic: نيره الصباح‎), called “Nurse Nayirah” in the media, was a fifteen-year-old Kuwaiti girl, who alleged that she had witnessed the murder of infant children by Iraqi soldiers in Kuwait, in verbal testimony to the U.S. Congress, in the run up to the 1991 Gulf War. Her testimony, which was regarded as credible at the time, has since come to be regarded as wartime propaganda. The public relations firm Hill & Knowlton, which was in the employ of Citizens for a Free Kuwait, had arranged the testimony. Nayirah’s testimony was widely publicized. Hill & Knowlton, which had filmed the hearing, sent out a video news release to Medialink, a firm which served about 700 television stations in the United States. That night, portions of the testimony aired on ABC’s Nightline and NBC Nightly News reaching an estimated audience between 35 and 53 million Americans. Seven senators cited Nayirah’s testimony in their speeches backing the use of force. President George Bush repeated the story at least ten times in the following weeks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_(testimony)

      Colin Powell wouldn’t lie, would he.

      What people need to ask is when exactly have we all been told the truth about anything.

      • madfloridian (1874 posts)
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        8. I remember them both.

        Fell for the first temporarily, then wised up.  Felt embarrassed for Colin Powell, like he sold his soul or something.  Didn’t seem like him at all.

        If a person is required to be loyal to a political party and not question their stands on issues, then any semblance of real truth is lost. https://twitter.com/madfloridian
        • awoke in 2003 (410 posts)
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          25. What soul he had

          was lost with his part in the cover up of the My Lai massacre.

          Call me Owen
      • Entrepreneur (1751 posts)
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        27. I never bought Collin Powell's UN presentation. I already knew they wanted to

        invade Iraq, and everything he presented could have been faked.  So the only question was if they were morally bankrupt enough to falsify the evidence, and I was certain they were.

        No longer GoneFishin.  Truth is I've never GoneFishin.
      • Flygirl (2633 posts)
        Profile photo of Flygirl

        53. Two days after Powell speech ..the a British papers exposed

        that he used a Graduate Students Dissertation paper as his “Intelligence”

        The Student said it was all bogus…it was hypothesis …

        And let us not forget the Death of Dr David Kelly…and his last emails to NYT ( at that time ) Judith Miller!!! Miller ..the Queen of propaganda!!

        Intelligence?? I say murderers!! I have very little faith in this current crew of Intelligence..they Lied us into war…and they are currently trying to lie us into either another Cold War or a full blown war with Russia and Iran!!

        I hope Trump sticks it up their lying asses…and I really hope people wake the hell up and shit can Graham , McCaskill..and the rest of the fucking war hawks in the Senate and Congresss…hopefully Trump lasts long enough to expose them all as the liars they are..and the media goes down hard as well!!

        i have a feeling Trump knows all what’s going on and that is why he is surrounding himself with former generals!!

        the Intelligence gets us into these fucking Wars..and it’s the Generals in many cases that is stuck putting us back together again at the cost of our young Brave people!!.. well Humpty Dumpty is broken…we need someone with balls of steal..to let humpty remain broken and start anew…

        we need to tear down our own wall!!

        to see these SOB’s crying Election anything..when they all knew..and know our election process is a damn fucking joke makes me sick….when they Knew Sequoia Machines that we used in Fla and still in use in NJ and other states were owned by a Corporation owned by Hugo Chavez ( no longer but they did through many elections!) When they have been given documented facts of election flipping and tabulator flipping of votes..is an absolute joke to see them now screaming Russia Russia!

        I want to spit at each and every one of these Congress assholes ..now concern!! The propaganda being spewed is so blatant and nothing but pathetic theater for the ignuts of this country!

        its a disgrace..and that is an understatement!

        According to the DNC I am a Wife of a Taco Bowl Member!
        • The Crone (3085 posts)
          Profile photo of The Crone Donor

          68. Great Post – but a question

          What was the subject of David E Kelley’s emails to Judith Miller?

          Oh and second question – are you of the belief he wrote the emails, or someone else?

          "Let us not seek the Republican answer nor the Democratic answer but the right answer." John F. Kennedy   America is the only country that has real   lemons in its furniture polish, and artificial lemon flavoring  in its lemonade!
          • Flygirl (2633 posts)
            Profile photo of Flygirl

            69. He told Miller in an email the morning of his death..

            “many dark actors playing games”.

            He went for a walk later that afternoon and never came back..48 hours prior if memory serves me..he had to testify about his remarks / report that Iraq had no WMD

            I believe he wrote the emails the morning of his death…

            what I don’t believe is that he committed suicide…at all

            and what I also don’t believe is that Judith Miller is innocent..she is scum and was an agent for our government..and was somehow implicated in Dr Kellys death/ murder.

            According to the DNC I am a Wife of a Taco Bowl Member!
            • The Crone (3085 posts)
              Profile photo of The Crone Donor

              71. I had never heard about the emails or their

              Content. I appreciate you filling in the gaps.

              I haven’t had any respect for Judith Miller, and very little respect for the NYT’s, since the “Weapons of Mass D.” headlines that Miller and the Times propagated.

              Kelley’s “suicide” does seem suspect in that so many others like him have also committed suicide. I am forgetting the numbers of microbiologists who have “gone for a walk” and then been found dead.

              And if they did commit suicide, was it because if they didn’t do so, then their families would be doomed?

              "Let us not seek the Republican answer nor the Democratic answer but the right answer." John F. Kennedy   America is the only country that has real   lemons in its furniture polish, and artificial lemon flavoring  in its lemonade!
              • Flygirl (2633 posts)
                Profile photo of Flygirl

                72. Supposedly Dr Kelly committed suicide

                a little over a month before his first daughters wedding….

                I would be hard pressed to believe a man close with his daughters..a little over a month before walking his daughter down the isle would commit suicide..in fact according to his family..that is why he chose to stay home ..instead of going in the field with his research.. and investigations!!

                According to the DNC I am a Wife of a Taco Bowl Member!
              • Flygirl (2633 posts)
                Profile photo of Flygirl

                82. No..they were just murdered..

                Dr David Kelly was murdered…plain and simple…and the cover up ensued…

                his body had been moved…one does not commit suicide and then the corpse moves…

                oh they had an inquiry..it was total bullshit…more cover up…

                Tony Blair, Gw , Cheney , Rumsfeld all belong in The Hague…and may I add Obama…our 3000 dead on 9/11 pales to the numbers of Human beings lives taken that these 5 have been responsible for the deaths of. If all lives are equal…these 5 should be spending the rest of their filthy lives in hard core prison! And should be hated and despised as much as Al Queada, and Isis…

                According to the DNC I am a Wife of a Taco Bowl Member!
        • sabrina (5959 posts)
          Profile photo of sabrina Moderator Emeritus

          80. Thanks for remembering Dr. David Kelley. Harrassed by the Blair Govt!

          after his appearance on the BBC, the Govt went into overdrive to silence the press in the UK. The BBC has never been the same since.

          I remember a headline in one of the UK’s prominent news papers after the so-called ‘investigation’ into Dr. Kelley’s death!

          WHITEWASH!

          On a blank page.

          Says it all about everything we have been told and still are being told, by the Western Colonial Governments.

    • nevereVereven (2524 posts)
      Profile photo of nevereVereven Donor

      10. Recommended

      A hologram of a magnifying glass will also function as a magnifying glass, but a hologram of Sherlock Holmes won't solve anything.  
    • Marym625 (21816 posts)
      Profile photo of Marym625 Admin

      12. On The Daily Radical!

      These were some horrific lies touted as fact by the government and the press.

      Jessica Lynch is a hero. It would have been so easy for her to just sit back and enjoy the limelight. But she is an amazing person.

      Thank you for reminding us about all this.

      Oi245KQ-1 "Once the decision was made to go into Iraq as an invader and occupier,  it’s like our nation lost its conscience. And it has not yet gotten that conscience back." Madfloridian  
    • Bonobo (291 posts)
      Profile photo of Bonobo

      13. Great post. Thank you very very much! nt

    • WillyT (8488 posts)
      Profile photo of WillyT Donor

      15. Most Excellent Post, Mad !!!

      :fistbump:

       

      :hug:

       

    • RufusTFirefly (1177 posts)
      Profile photo of RufusTFirefly Donor

      18. Luckily, the govt has learned its lesson and will never lie again

      Not.

      Michael: My father is no different than any powerful man, any man with power, like a president or senator.
      Kay Adams: Do you know how naive you sound, Michael? Presidents and senators don’t have men killed.
      Michael: Oh. Who’s being naive, Kay?

      Remember the Maine!

       

      • tonyl (838 posts)
        Profile photo of tonyl Donor

        43. Remember the Maine! – ah, that was another instance where young men were

        sent to kill on a premise that may well have been false. When will they ever learn.

        Because you cant have integrity occasionally
    • Blackspade (2581 posts)
      Profile photo of Blackspade

      21. Amen.

      JPR rec

    • LuckyDog (640 posts)
      Profile photo of LuckyDog

      23. The book "The Job," by William S. Burroughs

      That I read in 1969 really opened my eyes to the propaganda efforts and methods used by the deep state to control thought.  Nothing, literally nothing is too far for them to go in achieving their ends.

      If anyone is interested please check out this excellent book.  It is not fiction per se, it is a series of interviews and answers with Burroughs.  He was brilliant.  I would enjoy discussing its content with anyone else that has read this extraordinary book.

      http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23935.The_Job

       

      • Enthusiast (8383 posts)
        Profile photo of Enthusiast Donor

        50. Thank you, LuckyDog. I have never read it.

        "The NSA’s capability at any time could be turned around on the American people, and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything. There would be no place to hide."  Frank Church
    • hippiechick (1351 posts)
      Profile photo of hippiechick Donor

      24. Christ even NPR is drinking the kool aid …

      Big splash on their FB page about “Everyone’s worried about Russia except Trump, even in light of the hacking proof” (paraphrase)

      THERE IS NO GODDAMNED PROOF!!!   UGH!!!   :banghead:

      All all the little lemmings are piling on with their paranoid comments.

      • Peace Patriot (1972 posts)
        Profile photo of Peace Patriot Donor

        28. NPR has been drinking "Deep State" Koolaid for some time.

        I first noticed it with regard to Hugo Chavez and the Bolivarian Revolution, a matter that I was following quite closely.  The BBC as well.  They were both quite hostile to Chavez and to the millions of poor people who voted for him in his landslide victories, in an election system that Jimmy Carter termed “the best in the world.”  They promoted every “Deep State” lie about this.  I was shocked.  I began listening to NPR with better attention, and the hostility to democracy and the pro-war propaganda is quite intense on all political and foreign policy issues.  Now I can’t listen to NPR without getting a headache.  They are completely unreliable, lying “Deep State” fuckwads.

        The BBC is somewhat better than NPR, but that is not saying much.  Both of these once public service information sources were subjected to intense interference by Blairites and Bushites, and now routinely serve Oligarchic interests – transglobal corporations and war profiteers – with NPR, here, also serving the “3rd Way” Democrats (Republicans in drag) and war profiteers.

        • LuckyDog (640 posts)
          Profile photo of LuckyDog

          29. Yup, we are on our own

          every time a source reliable emerges, it gets co-opted or banished if they don’t heel to the oligarchs’ will that controls international events and all political machinations within individual countries.  In other words, there is no difference between Russia and the US today.  They are only two of the corrupt oligarch controlled countries in play.  They act in consort when it suits their needs and otherwise compete for the world’s resources on a daily basis, to the detriment of their citizens, especially in an economic sense and in regard to workers’ rights.

          Folks should read the Burroughs book I cited above-herein.  It is a real eye-opener.  And he wrote it in 1969!  Imagine!

      • Enthusiast (8383 posts)
        Profile photo of Enthusiast Donor

        51. NPR is actually the worst.

        "The NSA’s capability at any time could be turned around on the American people, and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything. There would be no place to hide."  Frank Church
    • Major Hogwash (2354 posts)
      Profile photo of Major Hogwash

      30. I grew up during the Vietnam War, the first lie war that America waged.

      There was no doubt by late 1967 that the debacle of the Vietnam War was not going “as planned”. Even though the mainstream media fed a daily dose of bullshit to the willingly ignorant American public, the troops arriving home were telling their families a completely different story, the horrific truth.

      I have 3 older cousins who were drafted by the federal government, and each one served in Vietnam, and each one told a story of uncontrolled carnage, outright mayhem, and utter chaos. The very definition of insanity ruled that war: “destroying the village to save it, didn’t work this time, but it might next time, so try it again.” The Generals wouldn’t back down, change direction, or even alter the course of that war. They acted in unison as if the overall strategy of waging that war was set in stone . . and it was. Nixon followed Johnson in to the White House in January of 1969, and he immediately ramped up the bombing of North Vietnam as he ever so slowly withdrew our troops. Using the war to his political advantage, Nixon was re-elected, even though he had been secretly bombing Cambodia and Laos for years without informing Congress. In the 30 years of aftermath, the truth of that lie war finally came out. A handful of Generals and one Secretary of Defense admitted they knew they couldn’t win that war very early on, by 1967, and some even said it became apparent to them even earlier, as early as 1966.

      We now know that invading Iraq was the biggest mistake in foreign policy carried out by the federal government since the Vietnam War. We knew before the 2000 Presidential election that George Dubya Bush didn’t serve in Vietnam.. And yet, by 2003 the mainstream media was busy portraying him as a great American war hero. Well, over 100 years ago, the media did the same thing to another George, General George A. Custer . . . but eventually the truth came out about him, too.

      Our kids, the generation that is just coming of age and coming in to their own, are our only hope. They are going to have to help us throw the people out of office who are leading this country and creating never-ending wars. It seems we can’t rely on many members of the older generation, many of which also supported the never-ending Vietnam War. It’s obvious to me that not enough people who were alive during that war gave a shit about the direction this country was headed this year. Bernie reminded me a lot this year of McGovern, and they both spoke truth to power. Some of us remember the catastrophe of the Vietnam War all too well, but in the end, the vast majority of us just didn’t care enough this year to turn the tables on the people who led us in to Iraq. Instead, the DNC and the GOP worked in tandem to give us Trump as a punishment for our sins.

       

       

      • madfloridian (1874 posts)
        Profile photo of madfloridian Donor

        31. I lost many friends during Vietnam. Too many memorial services. So sad.

        That truth about Bush the W did finally come out, but at the expense of the career of Dan Rather.  I was so angry at how he was treated.

        Oh, yeah, propaganda works many times when truth never makes it out.

        If a person is required to be loyal to a political party and not question their stands on issues, then any semblance of real truth is lost. https://twitter.com/madfloridian
      • Flygirl (2633 posts)
        Profile photo of Flygirl

        32. If you watched the Congressional Hearing today

        you would have seen one big giant Propaganda feast!!! The smearing of Julian Assange was theater by the mother Fucking liar Clapper who lied under oath…they think we forget..we’ll I guess some do..then one congress woman ( missed her name) had the damn nerve to bring up Robert Kagan..the father of PNAC..to tout what he had to say about “Dangerous Russia”… that prick was the bastard wrote PNAC and he with the help of his brother wrote Rebuilding Americas defenses..the blue print for the murder of my co-workers on 9/11..and was a huge $$ bundler for Queen Shillary!!

        It was like a Congressional smear fest of Trump and Julian…

        here the liar Clapper had a fucking lot of nerve!! As did the senators that applauded and cheered on that fucking liar!!

        I do hope Trump shit cans all those traitorous MTF’ers!!!

        it made me sick…and I was watching on MSNBC and then noticed..they never showed Rublicans that were questioning legitimately Clapper..I then turned to Fox and they were showing it without over talking anyone who questioned Clapper in Ernest!!

         

        According to the DNC I am a Wife of a Taco Bowl Member!
        • sabrina (5959 posts)
          Profile photo of sabrina Moderator Emeritus

          39. When I heard that Clapper was the 'big gun' they were dragging out to verify

          their lies, I knew I couldn’t watch it. You’re right, they do think we forget, or that we don’t care, like them. They don’t realize that most people are decent and unlike them, don’t like liars.

          As for Kagan, Clinton was planning on making his wife, Victoria Nuland, one of the orchestrators of the coup in Kiev, Sec of State.

          It’s all so incestuous, the war criminals, who will continue these awful wars so long as they are allowed.

          I guess all we can do is to keep on spreading information, like who Clapper is eg, to as many people as possible because when people have information, things become very difficult for the liars.  Why they hate Assange and Snowden, Manning, Binney, Drake et al.

           

        • Koko (3378 posts)
          Profile photo of Koko Donor

          61. I saw some bits of it…

          made me sick that they were allowing Clapper to carry on.

      • Enthusiast (8383 posts)
        Profile photo of Enthusiast Donor

        52. Huge Plus One!

        "The NSA’s capability at any time could be turned around on the American people, and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything. There would be no place to hide."  Frank Church
      • LuckyDog (640 posts)
        Profile photo of LuckyDog

        58. Two more good books on Vietnam

        “The Things They Carried,” by Tom O’Brien in 1990 and “The Fog of War.”

        I have a friend that served in VN and he asserted that by 1970 or so the US military high command knew they couldn’t win the war, yet the corrupt politicians and the folks profiting from it, including those very same high command personnel continued the war for their own black market interests/profits, not the least of which was the Golden Triangle heroin trade.  See also Denzel Washington in the film “American Gangster,” which is the most accurate portrayal of how the drug trade was a big profit center for the assholes bent on continuing the war.

        Ollie North was involved with that trade don’t forget.  Colin Powell, main cog in Mi Lai coverup until he couldn’t, turns up again in 2003 to lie to the UN in favor of another illegal war.  Unfuckingbelievable.  The sheep need to be shorn every few years or so, apparently.

    • bvar22 (336 posts)
      Profile photo of bvar22

      33. All I can say is "Thank You".

      Our government lies to us daily.

      You have highlighted only two of the most obvious cases.
      The whole ramp up to the invasion of Iraq was a huge LIE.

      Anybody with a clear mind knew it when Colin Powell (a known government liar since VietNam) used cartoon pictures of “Mobile Bio-weapons Labs” and photos of factories without  trucks around to “prove” that Iraq had WMD.

       

      Thanks for the reminder of Lynch and Tillman.

      Rec.

      • FanBoy (7985 posts)
        Profile photo of FanBoy

        41. and people just keep buying it. you can sort of understand why young

        people do — they haven’t lived long enough to see it keep repeating — but seems like older people (my age group) are even more gullible — but why would they be?  they’ve seen enough, if they’re paying attention — to know at least some of it is bs.

        maybe no one pays attention or everyone has dementia.  I don’t get it.

        • Enthusiast (8383 posts)
          Profile photo of Enthusiast Donor

          46. They don't have dementia. They just believe what they want to believe.

          Life is more pleasant that way. Everything is black and white, sometimes quite literally black and white.

          "The NSA’s capability at any time could be turned around on the American people, and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything. There would be no place to hide."  Frank Church
          • FanBoy (7985 posts)
            Profile photo of FanBoy

            54. Serious question: do you believe that?

            • Enthusiast (8383 posts)
              Profile photo of Enthusiast Donor

              55. I wouldn't have typed it if I didn't believe it.

              "The NSA’s capability at any time could be turned around on the American people, and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything. There would be no place to hide."  Frank Church
              • FanBoy (7985 posts)
                Profile photo of FanBoy

                56. It's hard for me to believe that people can willfully believe something just

                because it makes life easy.  I can see how they could ignore, hide, not think about — I can’t understand how onr could actually practice Orwellian doublethink to the point that one believed it.

                • Ohio Barbarian (3254 posts)
                  Profile photo of Ohio Barbarian Donor

                  65. It's very easy for me to believe that, because I grew up with people who did,

                  and who actually admitted it. I had a Southern Baptist Republican girlfriend in college, who broke up with me because I “threatened her belief system.” Her words. I’ve met hundreds of people who actually said things like “I know what I believe and anything that goes against that must be false,” or “Anyone who says the things you do are tools of The Devil.”

                  I’ve confronted Mormons with the well documented case of Joseph Smith proclaiming tablets with Nordic runes carved into them as the sacred tablets right in front of the Norwegian farmer in upstate New York who actually made them and let reporters in on his hoax ahead of time. Their response? “I know, but I believe anyway.”

                  I’ve met I don’t know how many Reagan fans whose economic lives were directly ruined by his policies, but refuse to believe St. Ronnie did any of that, or if they do, that they deserved what happened to them because of their bad choices, not the business owners who laid them off or cut their pay or benefits.

                  It happens all the time.

                  "Identity politics is the last refuge of the politically incompetent."  --Me, with a hat tip to Isaac Asimov  
                  • FanBoy (7985 posts)
                    Profile photo of FanBoy

                    66. I grew up with an atheist and a semi-atheist who disbelieved mainly because

                    though he came from a very religious family, he was handicapped.  At least, that’s my take on it.

    • Ohio Barbarian (3254 posts)
      Profile photo of Ohio Barbarian Donor

      34. You're right. We should never forget those two. Personally, I'm sick to death of

      every soldier or cop or firefighter who just does their job being called a “hero.” The good ones never consider themselves such. Remember this: “Do you really know what a hero is? A hero is someone who is tired enough, or sick enough, or just plain disgusted enough, to not give a damn anymore.” Or words very much to that effect.

      –Hawkeye Pierce, M*A*S*H

      The word has lost all real meaning in America. The epitome of absurdity was reached in an interview with two teenage girls who survived the Aurora, Colorado theater mass-shooting. They told a television reporter–I think it was CBS–that this guy started shooting people, and that they crawled away from him down an aisle.

      I clearly remember the reporter staring solemnly into the camera and intoned, “So there you have it; how these two heroes escaped and lived to tell the tale.” The girls looked at each other and giggled. They knew it was absurd.

      I about threw up.

      Superb post, BTW.

      "Identity politics is the last refuge of the politically incompetent."  --Me, with a hat tip to Isaac Asimov  
      • madfloridian (1874 posts)
        Profile photo of madfloridian Donor

        35. Loved Hawkeye. Right now feels like like it did leading up to Iraq.

        I admired Lynch and Tillman far more because they had no desire to be heroes.  The govt put Jessica Lynch and the Tillman family in some very uncomfortable spots with their lies.

        The snowballing of the attacks on Russia are upsetting.  What are we doing?  I had the DLCC call today, and we had a very long conversation.  He was careful not to say too much, but he listened.

        I told him I thought Hillary should accept responsibility for her loss and quit blaming other countries.    Said I might become a Democrat again when the Clintons were gone.

         

        If a person is required to be loyal to a political party and not question their stands on issues, then any semblance of real truth is lost. https://twitter.com/madfloridian
      • Enthusiast (8383 posts)
        Profile photo of Enthusiast Donor

        45. I agree with you so much on the hero thing.

        "The NSA’s capability at any time could be turned around on the American people, and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything. There would be no place to hide."  Frank Church
      • tonyl (838 posts)
        Profile photo of tonyl Donor

        62. hero, .. home of the brave, land of the free .. all pap fed to the young,

        along with a steady diet of Hollywood crap on their television/movie screens. I imagine it would be really really difficult to grow up in the US and still have a sense of what the truth looks like, which is why I have sympathy for the populace, and I still encounter the ‘best country in the world’ syndrome – usually from individuals that have never travelled abroad and so don’t know any better.

        The problem is, when people come out with these terms; no one challenges their use of it, and so it goes … yet another sophistry to propagate that flag that says to the other sheep: look at me, I’m patriotic !!. It takes courage to go against the flow.

        Because you cant have integrity occasionally
    • MannyGoldstein (2257 posts)
      Profile photo of Manny Goldstein Admin

      36. Don't doubt it for a second

      By the US government, or almost any other government.

      "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it" - Upton Sinclair
    • FanBoy (7985 posts)
      Profile photo of FanBoy

      40. +100 and not just in this war — the fake news goes back 100 years at least

    • Enthusiast (8383 posts)
      Profile photo of Enthusiast Donor

      44. Wonderful post, madfloridian.

      The official Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillman stories are the perfect example of government propaganda.

      At this point I no longer believe a thing they say. The level of dishonesty and obfuscation has overwhelmed the nation. Now they are even lying about lying.

      I have a suggestion for the government—stop abusing the American people.

      "The NSA’s capability at any time could be turned around on the American people, and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything. There would be no place to hide."  Frank Church
    • hopemountain (1934 posts)
      Profile photo of hopemountain Donor

      63. thank you, madfloridian –

      i came here tonight seeking something to balance my anger over today’s propaganda and report of “the russian” thing. your post helps – at least i am not alone with my disgust of so much bullshit coming from our government about how “russia”….

       

      "economic and environmental justice is spiritual work." ~ tom b. k. goldtooth ....
      • madfloridian (1874 posts)
        Profile photo of madfloridian Donor

        64. Oh, I know that feeling.

        I turned on MSNBC for a minute to get updates on the airport shooting in Ft Lauderdale.  I watched Chris Matthews and 3 others pushing that “Russia did it” theme so hard it made me sick.

        No voice to counteract it, just silly giggling over the whole thing.  It disturbed me so much I had to turn it off.

        I wrote this today then because I feel the same old stuff from Iraq coming on. Notice the definition of “high confidence.”

        https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/iraq-a-war-of-ideology-that-american-dominance-will-be-accepted/

         

        If a person is required to be loyal to a political party and not question their stands on issues, then any semblance of real truth is lost. https://twitter.com/madfloridian
    • Octafish (3772 posts)
      Profile photo of Octafish Donor

      67. US hero Pat Tillman thought Iraq war was 'imperial folly'

      The soldier and former American football player Pat Tillman who was killed in Afghanistan thought George W. Bush was a ‘cowboy’ and the Iraq an ‘imperial folly’.

      — http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6196432/US-hero-Pat-Tillman-thought-Iraq-war-was-imperial-folly.html


      Tillman saw the Iraq War was a lie and said so, publicly.

      “Get the truth and print it.” -- John S. Knight
      • madfloridian (1874 posts)
        Profile photo of madfloridian Donor

        70. I found this ABC article from 2009 with some interesting quotes and POVs

        I had not seen it before, just ran across it.

        http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/PatTillman/krakauer-army-colleagues-pat-tillman/story?id=8541279

        “Who does this?” Tillman wrote in a journal entry dated July 28, 2002. “Who takes a perfectly perfect life and ruins it? A perfectly happy wife and marriage and jeopardizes it? Ahhh! If I do not strangle someone while I’m here, I was touched by an angel.”

        Tillman’s personal journals and letters to his wife, Marie, seen publicly for the first time, offer a glimpse into the life of the man that very few people knew.

        “My life at this point is relatively easy,” Pat Tillman wrote in a letter to his family dated April 8, 2002. “It is my belief that I could continue to play football for the next seven or eight years and create a very comfortable lifestyle. My job is challenging, enjoyable and strokes my vanity enough to fool me into thinking it’s important. For more reasons that I care to list, my job is remarkable. However, it is not enough.”

        ….In his journal entry dated July 25, 2002, Tillman described his fellow soldiers: “They’re resentful, ungrateful, lazy, weak and unvirtuous. … One thing I find myself despising is the sight of all these guns in the hands of children. … Of course, we all understand the necessity of defense but that does not excuse the fact that a young man I would not trust with my canteen is walking about armed.”

        …..When Tillman joined the Army, he expected his first mission would be in Afghanistan to hunt for the man behind the 9/11 attacks, Osama bin Laden. But the United States invaded Iraq shortly after Tillman completed Ranger school and, in 2003, he deployed there instead.

        Tillman was upset about it and voiced his disapproval, Krakauer said. “He thought it was a mistake,” he said. “He thought it was going to be a disaster. And, in the Army, you’re not supposed to talk about that. You’re not supposed to talk politics, and Pat didn’t shut up. He told everyone this was illegal as hell.”

        If a person is required to be loyal to a political party and not question their stands on issues, then any semblance of real truth is lost. https://twitter.com/madfloridian
        • Flygirl (2633 posts)
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          73. If again memory serves me.. Mary Tillman had to fight

          the gov to get her son’s journal…

          According to the DNC I am a Wife of a Taco Bowl Member!
        • Octafish (3772 posts)
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          74. ''Pat didn't shut up.''

          People with integrity no longer fit in with what passes for America today.

          Thank you very much for the quotes and backstory, madfloridian. I will not forget them.

          “Get the truth and print it.” -- John S. Knight
          • Flygirl (2633 posts)
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            75. Octafish..wasn't Pat about to come home on leave and had a Scheduled meeting

            with Nom Chomsky…or someone he was supposed to have a meeting scheduled…I seem to remember that,.but not sure if it was Chomsky…

            but I remember thinking the Bush clan was very nervous of that meeting..

            and Mrs Tillman knew about it ..and was told of Pat’s journal..and she put up a good fight to get it..

            According to the DNC I am a Wife of a Taco Bowl Member!
            • madfloridian (1874 posts)
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              76. Did she have to go to court to get the journal?

              It would not surprise me one bit.

              If a person is required to be loyal to a political party and not question their stands on issues, then any semblance of real truth is lost. https://twitter.com/madfloridian
              • Flygirl (2633 posts)
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                77. I don't honestly know if Mary Tillman ever got Pats Journal

                she fought to get it…Pats brother Kevin , who had served with Pat, knew he had a Journal..but they were first told ..it couldn’t be found…then I remember ( if I remember correctly) that they were told ..it had been Burned…

                It was obvious at the Time that our Gov never wanted Pat’s Journal to see the light of day!

                Truth is not allowed by the USGovernment don’tcha know!!

                According to the DNC I am a Wife of a Taco Bowl Member!
            • Octafish (3772 posts)
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              81. Good memory, Flygirl!

              Pat Tillman, Our Hero

              War hero and former NFL star Pat Tillman was not the GI Joe icon created by Pentagon spinmeisters. He was a fiercely independent thinker convinced that the war in Iraq was illegal. Bereaved military families, also angered at Pentagon exploitation of their loved ones, are joining the critical chorus.

              By Dave Zirin
              The Nation, OCTOBER 6, 2005

              “I don’t believe it,” seethed Ann Coulter.

              Her contempt was directed at a September 25 San Francisco Chronicle story reporting that former NFL star and Army Ranger war hero Pat Tillman, who was killed in Afghanistan last year, believed the US war on Iraq was “f***ing illegal” and counted Noam Chomsky among his favorite authors. It must have been quite a moment for Coulter, who upon Tillman’s death described him in her inimitably creepy fashion as “an American original–virtuous, pure and masculine like only an American male can be.” She tried to discredit the story as San Francisco agitprop, but this approach ran into a slight problem: The article’s source was Pat Tillman’s mother, Mary.

              SNIP…

              The very private Tillmans have revealed a picture of Pat profoundly at odds with the GI Joe image created by Pentagon spinmeisters and their media stenographers. As the Chronicle put it, family and friends are now unveiling “a side of Pat Tillman not widely known–a fiercely independent thinker who enlisted, fought and died in service to his country yet was critical of President Bush and opposed the war in Iraq, where he served a tour of duty. He was an avid reader whose interests ranged from history books…to works of leftist Noam Chomsky, a favorite author.” Tillman had very unembedded feelings about the Iraq War. His close friend Army Spec. Russell Baer remembered, “I can see it like a movie screen. We were outside of [an Iraqi city] watching as bombs were dropping on the town…. We were talking. And Pat said, ‘You know, this war is so f***ing illegal.’ And we all said, ‘Yeah.’ That’s who he was. He totally was against Bush.” With these revelations, Pat Tillman the PR icon joins WMD and Al Qaeda connections on the heap of lies used to sell the Iraq War.

              SNIP…

              But when Tillman fell in Afghanistan the wheels once again started to turn. Now the narrative was perfect: “War hero and football star dies fighting terror.” The Abu Ghraib scandal was about to hit the press, so the President found it especially useful to praise Tillman as “an inspiration on and off the football field, as with all who made the ultimate sacrifice in the war on terror.” His funeral was nationally televised. Bush even went back to the bloody well during the presidential campaign, addressing his team’s fans on the Arizona Cardinals’ stadium Jumbotron.

              SNIP…

              As for Chomsky, whom Ann Coulter would undoubtedly label “treasonous,” Mary Tillman says a private meeting was planned between him and Pat after Pat’s return–a meeting that never took place, of course. Chomsky confirms this scenario. This was the real Pat Tillman: someone who, like the majority of this country, was doubting the rationale for war, distrusting his Commander in Chief and looking for answers. The real Pat Tillman, the one with three dimensions, must stick in the throat of the Bush-Coulter gang, a pit in the cherry atop their bloody sundae.

              SOURCE:

              https://www.thenation.com/article/pat-tillman-our-hero/

              “Get the truth and print it.” -- John S. Knight
    • awoke in 2003 (410 posts)
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      78. Always happy to rec your posts

      maybe it is the curse of having access to so much information so easily, but it gets harder everyday to distinguish truth from bullshit. Maybe that is the point. Maybe they want us so saturated with BS that we throw our hands up and give up because we no longer know what to believe.

      Call me Owen
    • Pastiche (486 posts)
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      83. Mad, I believe this is your best piece ever!

      I have been reading your essays for well over a decade and I know I will always learn something. Thank for being a teacher outside of the classroom, too.

      • madfloridian (1874 posts)
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        84. Hi, Pastiche. How have I missed your posts?

        This place must be moving faster than I thought.   Thanks for the kind words.   I saw when you joined, but I have not seen posts from you.

        If a person is required to be loyal to a political party and not question their stands on issues, then any semblance of real truth is lost. https://twitter.com/madfloridian
        • Pastiche (486 posts)
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          88. I'm still more of a reader than a poster – that's how.

          The vast majority of my posts were made the day Bernie was forced to endorse Her. I was rather upset that day.  lol

    • Mick Lady (174 posts)
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      86. I sound like a broken record…

      But Mad, you have really educated me! I can’t thank you enough! I feel like I’ve been walking around blind all these years…

      What fresh hell is this?
    • MrMickeysMom (1446 posts)
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      87. Right-O, mad…

      Everything you’ve laid out here is more than enough to infuriate every single American who can read and understand the written record of how we are a war complex run by the oligarchy. Who controls endless wars and those who become fodder for them is what has happened in stages of disbelief. It’s the stuff that ignites bloody revolutions where people really, really take it to the streets.

      If I drill down to the point where this all began a deep slide out of our control, it begins with Kennedy getting killed. If I think as many times about the decisions to invade foreign countries, flushing the Magna Carter down the commode, I keep going back to the moment this mess was fully enabled without anyone blocking it. It was that time where a president of the United States was taken out because when he tried to draw the line to stop the MIC. We’ve never gained ground since then. It’s like the United States would have to be dragged back to that point where we could no longer ignore history like this. This, in turn would have to be followed by rubbing our nose in the moment it was “over” for ANYONE…. Kennedy, you, me, Pat Tillman… ANYONE who might stand up… might stand in the way of unending wars – who is tossed aside into the funeral pyre.

      I’m not sure we can stop them by conventional practice. One big fantasy is for every single person who pays local, state and federal taxes to just STOP. Okay, that’s not likely to happen. Then, how about NOBODY joins the armed forces? That’s a more likely refusal of one of the few FULL EMPLOYMENT jobs out there.

      I don’t pretend to have answers, but I DO have fury. It must be tamed within my own damned self before I can join a collective movement of any kind.

      Hell no...I'm not giving up...     cat-gif-238.gif giphy.gif
    • Pacco Fransisco (3651 posts)
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      89. ~

      I am L0oniX  Fuck David and his pin head DLC 3rd way herd of goats