I'm not throwing Bernie Sanders under the bus

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    • #319349
      not4sale
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      • Total Posts: 244

      I’d quit the corrupted democratic election rigged process too.  There are very few people in politics that actually work for a few good things.  I will continue to support them when they are working for those issues.  Others I won’t throw under the bus: Gabbard (anti-war), Warren (anti-corruption), Ralph Nadar (pro-regulation), Cortez (pro universal healthcare, environment), all governors that pay attention to science, and numerous members of the press including Amy Goodman, Caitlin Johnstone, Assange and other similarly-minded people.

    • #319355
      MizzGrizz
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,884

      ..but otherwise I agree.

      Bernie will continue to try,from the Senate,although he is just one person.Yes,it hurts,it will always hurt,what the system did to him,although it came as no surprise.

      I also like Caitlin,Nader,Rob Urie,Taibbi and Thomas Frank.

    • #319363
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 13,851

      Elizabeth Warren just turned into a power-hungry Snake Woman, but I never really trusted her–she taught at an Ivy League school, after all–so she doesn’t really count.

      I support no one who supports Fascists or corrupt war criminals. If that means I threw them under the bus, then I’m glad that I did.

      I will not vote for any Democrat this year, and possibly will not for the rest of my life.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      If Democrats don’t stand for the people, why should people stand for them?--Jim Hightower

    • #319364
      xyzse
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,465

      The way I see it, I can’t see him doing anything else considering his position, however there are a few actions he did that I can not agree with.

      Namely:

      • Joining in the Russiagate propaganda, which pretty much hemmed him in to a no-win scenario.
      • Playing racial/identity politics more this time, rather than concentrating on working-class issues.  This is when he gets in to trouble.  It is also one of the reasons I am not too happy with Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, even if I still support her in a way.
      • Not taking Biden to task earlier on his electability.  Saying that Joe can win, was a signal that he was unneeded.
      • Quitting too early.  He could have waited till June, but at least hit May.
      • Forcing his delegates to comply to unreasonable and undemocratic measures.
      • Not being there to vote for the anti-surveillance measures.
      • Now shaming voters to vote for Joe.

      Stating that, just because I do not agree with him on certain actions, does not mean that I dislike him, nor does it change the fact that I consider him as one of the better “good” politicians out there.

      Lastly, I still think that his initial statement from 2015 saying something like “Don’t listen to me if I am telling you who to vote for”, is what I’m following.

      So no, I don’t think I am throwing him under the bus.  I have legitimate reasons for disagreements with him, but that is the same with every politician.  I will not silence my criticism either, even though I do balance it out.

      • #319372
        JonLP
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 2,013

        Despite its success in the midterm elections, the Democratic Party continues to be divided, with one faction seeming to focus on the economic plight of working families and the other staking new claims for women and people of color. Along with important structural disadvantages, this story is part of what is allowing an unrepresentative Republican Party maintain control of most of the branches of government.

        Although there are new efforts astride to point out that economic justice and racial and gender justice are two sides of the same coin, what hasn’t been made as clear is that the choice is not only a false one, but is also the result of a concerted strategy by Donald Trump and his army of right wing pundits to undermine Democrats’ success in the polls.

        (snip)

        This analysis, however, is misleading in that it fails to recognize that the Democratic Party itself has adhered to, in the words of Lily Geismer and Matthew D. Lassiter, a “deliberate and long-term strategy…to favor the financial interests and social values of affluent white suburban families and high tech corporations over the priorities of unions and the economic needs of middle income and poor residents of all races.” This fixation, they conclude, “on upscale white suburbs also distorts policies and diverts resources that could generate higher turnout among nonwhite voting blocs that are crucial to the party’s fortunes and too often taken for granted.” Among many other things, for instance, it includes supporting the mortgage interest deduction and protecting educational tax shelters like 529 plans that almost exclusively benefit the upper-middle class, and that help consolidate that class’s lock on the social and economic benefits of higher education. To put it in a nutshell, the choice between diversity and economic justice is a false one; the Democratic Party fails when it cedes economic justice to the faux-populist right while also failing to improve the standard of living of many minority citizens.

        https://thephilosophicalsalon.com/diversity-and-the-weaponization-of-identity-politics/known-it-fomenting-extremism-years-and-refuses-stop

        The Democratic Party succeeds when it focuses on both instead of ignoring one for the other. I also can’t blame Bernie Sanders for listening to our intelligence agencies unlike Trump. As far as AOC look at her district.

        • #319398
          xyzse
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 1,465

          @jonlp I still think it is a false choice.  I consider concentrating on Working Class issues as a means to improve everything.  I still consider concentrating on piece-meal groups as a means of division, where those who are struggling will then look at those who are getting some perceived help(which is usually nothing to begin with) then becomes embittered by it.

          By doing so, many then lose empathy for those who are different from them, and in turn is set to think more cruelly against certain groups by thinking “you deserve that hardship”.

          Bernie in 2016 did not ignore both, in fact his populism and concentration on mostly the working class and health care was his selling points.  This time around, I think his campaign itself paid more attention to identity politics, even though it was not to the point of others.   I think that’s why we’re dealing with the fallout with Jeff Weaver.

          • #319399
            JonLP
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 2,013

            For example I want to reverse decades of redlining. I also see discrimination in criminal justice. Minorities are more likely to be stopped, prosecuted, convicted, sentenced to longer sentences, etc. I would like criminal justice reform which is what Bernie Sanders proposed. We just had a woman in central park threaten to call the police on birder for telling her to leash her dog per park regulation and she threatened to say that he threatened her when he didn’t. That incident is being used against progressives as an example of solving income inequality doesn’t solve racism.

            Half of AOC’s district is latino/hispanic so I would expect her to advocate for immigration reform considering there are undocumented living in her district.

            I think progressives would be better off instead of complaining about it show how we’re better than the neoliberals on these issues which we are. Bernie Sanders was arrested at a civil rights protest while Biden platformed segregationists. This isn’t hard.

            • #319415
              xyzse
              Participant
              • Total Posts: 1,465

              @jonlp I agree with that.  Thing is, Bernie in 2016 was already like that.  To those that paid attention, by concentrating on what affects us all, it showed where everyone is hurting.

              Where just by virtue of the policies alone, it is already better than the Neoliberal policies.  Especially since these folks don’t really mean to change things to begin with.  Much of the progress made was through the court system rather than legislatively.

              Saying that, I still maintain that the campaign itself concentrated more on IP than before.  I am not saying it was Bernie, since he himself still mostly concentrated on jobs and health care, but when you concentrate too much on groups, chances are, you just lose people.  Especially when everything is so bad for the majority as is.

              As for Immigration, as someone who came here and got naturalized, I still know quite a few individuals who have gone through the legal process being shelved due to how crazy this system actually is.  For example, a friend of mine was unable to visit their mother who was dying, otherwise they would not have been able to come back here.  Other examples are those who were here on a working visa, who then goes in to limbo due to either losing the job, or being given unlawful working terms.  I even knew someone who had a similar situation that was akin to modern day slavery in America(example here), she had better treatment, but the background is similar(she passed away in 2004).

              I do think that is important, but I still consider the idea of Jobs, Pay, Health Care, and Education as the items far more important to concentrate on, when in a campaign.  Look at Biden now, he’s just going off on Identity Politics, and I find it just deplorable.  Concentrating too much on different groups forces different groups to fight for the scraps that fall off the plates of the rich.

              I’m not saying it isn’t important to look and correct those matters either, but I think the concentration should be more emphasized on what helps everyone as a whole.

              • #319572
                Cold Mountain Trail
                Participant
                • Total Posts: 8,519

                “Concentrating too much on different groups forces different groups to fight for the scraps that fall off the plates of the rich.”

                I see the ‘talented tenth’ branding themselves to get into positions of power while the rank & file remain on the ground floor.  And the ‘tenth’ are usually happy enough to leave them there except when they can be used to further the brand.

                Just like the ‘talented tenth’ of whites do.

                It’s hard to make money by actually fighting for civil rights & justice.  MLK didn’t die well-off, and his family didn’t either.  Nobody’s taking up that cross when there’s money to be made.

                 

        • #319571
          Cold Mountain Trail
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 8,519

          “In its willful ahistoricism, the Court’s rulings in Bakke and subsequent cases, including Grutter v. Bollinger (2003) and Fisher v. University of Texas (2013), have effectively affirmed a ‘diversity regime’ that knows how to celebrate difference without exploring how that difference got produced, imposed, and preserved.” Multiculturalism became a kind of feel-good substitute for actual justice, he continues: “Rather than mandated fair employment measures, decried by Jim Crow politicians as ‘autocratic’ and ‘tyrannical,’ the country got affirmative action, a program that allows employers to cultivate their own multiculturalism relative to their own perceived market demands.” As we are seeing today, even white supremacists who marched and murdered a year ago in Charlottesville have learned to justify hatred on a spurious claim to being a threatened cultural group. In this way, the celebration of identity becomes the flip side of the corrosive tribalism that is undermining our democracy today.”

      • #319395
        Jan Boehmerman
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 3,030

        @xyzse  I’m in total agreement!

    • #319367
      bazukhov
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,631

      The Democratic Party, like most parties, is made up of diverse factions that quarrel usually over minutiae.   Getting them to agree to fight the common enemy is usually an exercise in futility.

      See “Herding Cats” for an example of how well that works.

      Tell me, great captain, how do the angels sleep when the devil leaves his porch light on? Tom Waites

      • #319584
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 13,851

        So organized that several presidential candidates could drop out and endorse just one establishment candidate to defeat the main challenger to the existing order. So organized they have their own propaganda television network. So organized they voted in lockstep to help out their donors and not their voters.

        The truth of that saying is as dead as Will Rogers.

        It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

        If Democrats don’t stand for the people, why should people stand for them?--Jim Hightower

    • #319379
      HassleCat
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,285

      Those who are members of Congress will have a better time of it if a Democrat is president. Even a lukewarm Democrat like Joe Biden.

    • #319384
      Maedhros
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 646

      For one, it’s part of the annoying ‘cancel culture’ that has taken hold:  someone does one thing that a person/group doesn’t like, so they are instantly declared persona non grata and forevermore shunned, their past accomplishments nullified.  A great example is Glenn Greenwald, who had the temerity to criticize a Democratic President and henceforth was slandered, mocked, insulted by Democrats despite being correct in his criticism.

      For another, the idea that criticizing a politician when they make a mistake is tantamount to “throwing them under the bus” is counterproductive.  When a politician screws up, it’s our responsibility as active citizens to hold them accountable for doing so.  Criticizing Sanders for failing to effectively use the power created by his movement, and then to meekly bend the knee and chide his supporters for not backing Biden, is the right thing to do.

      Pretending that our political leaders are infallible and refusing to accept criticism of those leaders is a move best left to SV and the other Democratic sycophants.

      His body recovered from his torment and became hale,
      but the shadow of his pain was in his heart;
      and he lived to wield his sword with left hand
      more deadly than his right had been.

      • #319400
        MizzGrizz
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,884

        ..most notably,his acceptance of Russiagate,and his willingness to promote it.

        I am more furious at the outcome of the primary than I am disappointed or disillusioned,for I never expected it to be anything other than it was—the entire system leaning on Bernie to crush him.

        My own response was known to me as well.I will never forgive a politician or a media person who did it,and I will not vote for a Democrat again.

    • #319411
      David the Gnome
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      • Total Posts: 2,402

      Pretty sure he threw the whole damn Country under the bus.  Warren?  Helped make that happen, using lies and politics as usual.  Anti corruption might be accurate if she hadn’t been on the Biden bus all along, or wasnt a lying coward.

      Sanders, AOC and the others have demonstrated that they lack the courage or the will to really challenge the status quo.  How do I know this?  Because no matter where you look, there is almost no discussion about how to help the American people.  No legislation beyond the bull shit the house passed – knowing full well the Senate would kill it.

      Yet I don’t see anyone out there saying what needs to be said, or holding these liars and cowards accountable.  One hundred thousand dead – the worst economic depression, quite possibly, in the history of America.  Hunger and poverty at staggering levels and homelessness soon to match.

      Their lack of courage, conviction and much else demonstrates tjeir worth.  None of them are up to the challenge.  They can go under, or over, or in the damn bus as far as I’m concerned – so long as they go away.

      Even Republicans are calling for a UBI.  This shit is just getting started – and while the shmucks are eager to vote with Republicans on awful, cynically named legislation to give trillions to the wealthy… Help for the average person?  No.

      I know it wont pass – but the shitty bill they passed in the House was shit to begin with.

      Put forward UBI and universal healthcare – let those who vote against go on record as doing so.  Put forward rent and mortgage relief for the hundreds of thousands about to lose their homes.

      Oh, that’s right, they can’t or won’t because they all jumped in the wagon with an asshole who said he would veto Medicare for all.

      There is no voice in politics for the people – and that includes those you mentioned.

      • #319496
        Two way street
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,604

        @davidthegnome  There should be consequences for lying to the People, deceiving and robing them.  That means to me that Congress is full of liars, backroom gamers and thieves.

        2020 Campaign Season: We the People are in the fight for our lives and livelihoods.

    • #319446
      Dragon Turtle
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 68

      Have to agree with David the Gnome’s post.

      ——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————

      In regards not4sale’s op about throwing Sanders and others under the bus… Ironically while you may refuse to “throw someone under the bus”: He and the others you mentioned have thrown you and other people under it.

       

       

    • #319447
      a little weird
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 633

      I’m extremely disappointed in the outcome of this primary and with several of the decisions he and/or his campaign made along the way.  I don’t think it means he is a coward or a sell-out or that he has betrayed us.  He failed – that much is true.  And he has disappointed me several times lately in things he said or things he failed to say – there’s nothing at all wrong with criticizing him when he falls short or refusing to vote for Biden just because Bernie says I should.  But he has been right on the issues I care about 90% of the time and is the only politician in my lifetime that has inspired me to think differently about the political process and what is possible.  I was never someone that expected him to walk on water or to singlehandedly overturn the entire neoliberal establishment.  Maybe that’s why I don’t feel quite so betrayed now that he has fallen short.

    • #319461
      B Calm
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 824

      What a trip it was to go to my right wing county courthouse today.  Today was the first day of early voting and I arrived at 8am.  First person to vote in my county.  I was wearing my face mask, but the two poll workers did not have one on.  I told them I was upset that they were not wearing masks.  The county clerk says they are not required.  To make a long story short, they both had face masks on before I finished voting! My wife voted around 11am and she called to let me know they were still wearing face masks!

    • #319464
      sadoldgirl
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      • Total Posts: 784

      It is immaterial to me who throws him under the bus

      and who doesn’t. To me he has become unimportant in

      the scheme of things. I’ll vote Green or for a new party,

      which would work for the people. The corporatist and

      war mongering Uniparty won’t change for the foreseeable

      future, nor any of its members.

       

      • #319585
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 13,851

        @sadoldgirl It’s also the most frequently correct. If one doesn’t expect the Democrats or Republicans to ever do anything for the benefit of the working classes, one might sometimes be pleasantly surprised, but never let down by them.

        It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

        If Democrats don’t stand for the people, why should people stand for them?--Jim Hightower

    • #319594
      Electrolyte Orchestra
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 291

      In addition to what’s been mentioned, he challenged us to take on the 1%, to join Our Revolution, and we responded. He collected a lot of money from people for whom donating means additional hardship. They do that so he will fight for them. He folded his cards on the flop instead.

      He was probably the last guy who was or will be able to fundraise with the corporatists.

    • #319602
      ravensong
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,099

      Bernie fully understands what Trump is, and based on what Trump and his ignorant, hateful authoritarian fascist cabal have done in the past 3 1/2 years, has chosen to do whatever it takes to remove the current fascist sociopaths, who are a clear and present danger and immediate threat to humankind and life on earth itself, from power.

      Based on what Bernie has done, I know that he is not self-serving, deceitful, or motivated by greed. He is not for sale. His heart is good, and true, and he genuinely desires to do what he thinks is best for his people.

      I do not know what those who throw him under the bus have done, or who they are.  I only know some of what they have said, or say, on the internet. In real life, i don’t know any Bernie folk who are throwing him under the bus.

       

      “A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by a majority.” ~ Booker T. Washington

      The truth is, there’s no such thing as being “anti-Fascist.” Either you are a decent human being with a conscience, or you are a fascist.
      ~ Unknown

    • #319654
      roody
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      • Total Posts: 402

      it is possible that the powerful threatened the safety of Bernie’s family.

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