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Home Main Forums General Discussion Investigating Russiagate

  • davidthegnome (1990 posts)
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    Investigating Russiagate

    So, to begin with, what are the allegations?  That Russia interfered with our election by hacking the DNC server.  That Russian “bots” on Twitter, Facebook and other social media promoted Trump (which is illegal??).  Members of Congress have gone so far as to call it an act of war.

    The claims that the DNC server was hacked by Russia have been disproved.  Over and over again, by our own intelligence officials.  The DNC’s refusal to let even the FBI (Who they now claim to honor and trust) investigate the server is also telling.

    As for the “Russian bots” I have yet to see any convincing evidence of anything illegal.  Or even malicious.  Yet social media giant are falling in line.  Suspending accounts, deleting and censoring material.

    Late night comedians are even speaking of all of these allegations as proven fact.  Like these things are foregone conclusions.

    Where is the proof?  When was there a trial?  For this “act of war” what war-like actions did Russia or Putin take?

    Please do not misunderstand.  I despise Trump and Putin and have no interest in vindicating either.  My concern is that a bunch of bull shit is being used to censor independent media and content – and even the opinions of many fellow citizens.

    I absolutely believe that Trump is financially corrupt and it wouldn’t surprise me one bit if he had done questionable things with Russian oligarchs.  That, however, is not what is being used to justify the witch hunt.

    They are going after honest journalists and citizens, accusations of being Russian propagandists/sympathizers/tools are becoming very common.  Yes it is red baiting, yes it is McCarthyism – and yes, democrats are doing it.

    So someone help me out here… Why does anyone believe the bull shit narrative?  How is the mainstream media constantly promoting “American” propaganda as if it were fact?

    Where are the facts, even?

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    “There is no distinctly native American criminal class save Congress.” - Mark Twain

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45 replies
  • 5 days ago #35
    • Marym625 (28800 posts)
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      1. On The Daily Radical

      Thank you

      Wish I had time to respond. Gotta get outta here. I owe my soul to the company store

      Take Action #StopFCC https://www.battleforthenet.com/breaktheinternet/ "Once the decision was made to go into Iraq as an invader and occupier,  it’s like our nation lost its conscience. And it has not yet gotten that conscience back." Madfloridian  
      • davidthegnome (1990 posts)
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        2. Love and hugs Mary

        Thanks for putting it on the daily radical.  You owe your beautiful soul to no one!  Some times, we just have to work for schmucks.

        Lots and lots of love.

        “There is no distinctly native American criminal class save Congress.” - Mark Twain
        • Marym625 (28800 posts)
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          27. Right back at ya!

          :hug:

          Take Action #StopFCC https://www.battleforthenet.com/breaktheinternet/ "Once the decision was made to go into Iraq as an invader and occupier,  it’s like our nation lost its conscience. And it has not yet gotten that conscience back." Madfloridian  
      • amylsacks (186 posts)
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        24. Note The, Er… Intensity Of The Headline Here

        Vs. what St. Clair actually says in the article. To quote some old-timer whose name I don’t recall, a barnacle isn’t a ship. :D

        http://portlandtribune.com/pt/9-news/385248-272731-when-russian-troll-infiltrates-website-editor-investigates

        I’ve been on more than one board over the years where people who were losing arguments (or who merely didn’t want you arguing with them at all) were quick to point fingers and shout “infiltrator!” and so on. It’s made me ultra-cynical about this stuff.

        • Marym625 (28800 posts)
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          28. I don't understand what you're talking about

          David’s title?

          Take Action #StopFCC https://www.battleforthenet.com/breaktheinternet/ "Once the decision was made to go into Iraq as an invader and occupier,  it’s like our nation lost its conscience. And it has not yet gotten that conscience back." Madfloridian  
          • amylsacks (186 posts)
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            29. The Tribune Article I Linked To.

            Makes it sound like Moscow is marching on the alternative press, don’t you think?

            • Marym625 (28800 posts)
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              32. Oh! Yes. I'm sorry

              I was rushed.

              They sure do make it sound like we’re in dire straits

              Take Action #StopFCC https://www.battleforthenet.com/breaktheinternet/ "Once the decision was made to go into Iraq as an invader and occupier,  it’s like our nation lost its conscience. And it has not yet gotten that conscience back." Madfloridian  
              • amylsacks (186 posts)
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                33. No Worries.

                These things happen.

                I don’t agree with everything St. Clair says, or publishes, but overall I think he’s good at resisting the panicky nonsense that seems to have seized the mainstream press, and too many of its wannabees.

                • Marym625 (28800 posts)
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                  34. Totally agree

                  That reporter was pushing for more

                  Take Action #StopFCC https://www.battleforthenet.com/breaktheinternet/ "Once the decision was made to go into Iraq as an invader and occupier,  it’s like our nation lost its conscience. And it has not yet gotten that conscience back." Madfloridian  
    • Scuba (4759 posts)
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      3. To some, Russiagate only means things which can be disproved.

      I notice that you omitted money laundering from your list.

      • Rozinante (3958 posts)
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        4. Paragraph 6.

        http://deadstate.org/conspiracy-theories-make-people-feel-like-theyre-special/
        • Scuba (4759 posts)
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          5. I think you meant Paragraph 7, but the OP states ..

          … “That, however, is not what is being used to justify the witch hunt” which strongly implies “Russiagate” is not about fiscal corruption.

           

          In the first paragraph the OP listed allegations; money laundering was not included.

      • davidthegnome (1990 posts)
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        6. Sigh.

        Actually, I did mention that I consider Trump financially corrupt.  I’ll even grant likely ties to Russian oligarchs and money laundering.  The man is an ass.  That is not what I am debating.

        Examine the claims individually, specifically.  Do you see something I don’t?

        Hey, I’d love to start (legally) removing politicians for money laundering and Trump would certainly be on the list.  That’s not really here or there though.  If it is money laundering, let such be the accusation and investigation pertinent to such.

        My point is the hacking claims, Russian advertising complaints and so on… are bull shit.  You do know that big media outlets are guilty of McCarthyism.  Doesn’t that bother You? That independent media is accused of being tools for Russia?  Even our own JPR made it on the list, comrades.

        I guess we see something very different here.  My mind is not closed on this matter, but I have yet to see anything remotely worthy of the hype, or to suggest that Russia/Putin committed an act of war here.

        “There is no distinctly native American criminal class save Congress.” - Mark Twain
        • Scuba (4759 posts)
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          7. Yeah, "act of war" is hyperbole in the nth degree. Maybe I'm too sensitive…

          … but I’ve seen numerous posts here discounting “Russiagate” by equating it to election rigging.

          As I’ve posted many times, I believe Hillary lost the election because she was the worst candidate in history, not because Russkies posted nasty (but mostly true) shit about her on Facebook.

          That said, I believe in the final analysis we’ll learn that the DOJ investigation is focused on money, not votes.

           

          • davidthegnome (1990 posts)
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            8. With you on the money.

            Yes, investigate his finances, his tax returns.  Fine, if that’s the basis for the investigation I am all for it… but Trump should only be the beginning.  There are some big damn fish in that sea.

            Wouldn’t it be great if Soros and the Koch brothers could not legally buy politicians?  Ugh.  Thing is, there’s a whole damn lot to do there.  I just don’t think our politicians (With some few exceptions) are interested in doing it.  They benefit from the system we have, it has made them wealthy.

            We’ll see, regarding the outcome of the investigation, but the attack on what free press remains deeply concerns me.

            “There is no distinctly native American criminal class save Congress.” - Mark Twain
          • Silver Witch (6163 posts)
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            13. I posted nasty shit about Hillary …

            on Twitter and Facebook. All true!!!  Truth destroys evil. So she failed.

            Russkies for Christ sake grow up.  No one calls the Russkies anymore. That’s is so 50/60s.

            It was not the Russians who ruined the election It was Hillary. And the DNC.

            Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost~John Quincy Adams  
            • Scuba (4759 posts)
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              14. Holy shit! We agree on something!

              I was born in the 1940’s, so you’ll have to forgive me for the “Russkies” usage.

               

               

              • davidthegnome (1990 posts)
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                16. Question.

                Do you think the massive propaganda and red baiting of the time is making a return?  40s, 50s, 60s, that was when that shit happened the first time wasn’t it?  My mom tells stories of alarms going off, kids having to hide under their desks, or in ditches.

                There are a lot of people who lived through it the first time around… so I wonder if some of the fury being directed at Russia is in some way… well, just old shit that never really quite went away.

                “There is no distinctly native American criminal class save Congress.” - Mark Twain
                • Scuba (4759 posts)
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                  17. It's very different now. Heroin addict McCarthy threw around …

                  … charges of CommieCommieCommie because people belonged to unions, worked in Hollywood or otherwise disagreed with him.

                  Now there seem to be two groups:  Hilbots looking for election loss excuses and those who see Trump’s involvement with Russian (and other) mobsters as problematic.

                  The Hilbots should be ignored, while Trump’s ties to mobsters are indeed troublesome.

      • Earth artist (758 posts)
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        18. Russia gate had nothing

        to do with corruption. The corruption is all Mueller could work with,but it has nothing to do with Russia gate, which is wholly owned by the DNC, MIC, Clinton, and the media.

        Mueller is part of that crew.

        So if you can’t destroy him one way you go another. Funny were you belly aching about the corruption by clinton, obama, bush ,bush sr, regun?

         

        • Scuba (4759 posts)
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          19. Yeah, I got tombstoned over at SV for belly aching about said corruption.

          And Russiagate has everything to do with corruption.

           

          By the way, Mueller is a Republican.

      • bobthedrummer (3664 posts)
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        45. I will keep posting about that fact because it's so obvious. No the Russians

        didn’t  “make Trump POTUS” but all these transnational $hithead$ are still doing their laundry-and The United States of America is now the world’s #1 tax haven.

        Paradise Papers

        https://www.theguardian.com/news/series/paradise-papers

        All power to the People.
    • Charles (2256 posts)
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      9. It's a sordid affair with corruption abound on all sides. Hopefully ALL wrong

      doing is exposed and dealt with somehow. Wishful thinking but what the hell….

       

      • davidthegnome (1990 posts)
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        10. Doubt it.

        I’d like to see that too, unfortunately, a great deal of wrongdoing is now perfectly legal.  Particularly as it pertains to financial corruption issues.    A lot of it is already known, politicians getting millions from corporations.  Even democrats like Joe Kennedy get big money from drug companies.

        Consider the fraudulent Trump University.  We knew Trump screwed people out of their money in a highly unethical manner.  Yet, he won the election anyway.  In part, I think, because of things like Clinton getting six figure payments for speeches.

        Hell, we know they’re corrupt.  We know they are deeply so in ways that ought to be criminal, but aren’t.  So… at the end of the investigation, I do not really think proving money laundering allegations will be enough.  Conspiracy, treason maybe.  Money laundering though?

        The vast majority of politicians are guilty of this, via illegitimate business we call politics.

        “There is no distinctly native American criminal class save Congress.” - Mark Twain
        • amylsacks (186 posts)
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          25. An Aside But…

          …I think the underappreciated lesson of HRC vs. Trump is that you don’t send a rich woman out to attack and take down her rich crony of many years. Sort of like how Skull ‘N Bones vs. Skull ‘N Bones in ’04 was a bad idea.  Strangely this point hasn’t gone over well on some other “progressive” boards I’ve been on. Go figure.

    • mindwalker (773 posts)
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      11. Democrats push this because their base needs some crack

      Especially for those who think Hillary is God’s gift to the entire fucking world, and after Trump was made out to be the unholy love child of Cthulhu and a cheese sandwich, they need something to “explain” how he won.  People want to believe Russia did it, and giving them those rocks of crack keeps them from questioning all the DNC did to push Hillary, why they pushed Hillary, and what direction they are going in.

      Like crack, it’s unhealthy.

      Readin'?  That's un-American!  Get your ass in front of a TV!
    • Silver Witch (6163 posts)
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      12. Several on the board should be able to help you.

      I don’t see too many on this board that believe in Russiagate.   I think some americans look in the mirror and see what America has done to overthrow other countries and their fear and paranoia become overwhelming.

      Frankly I suspect the Shock of Trump winning and Hillary losing was just too much for some to bare and so they had to create an excuse for HER crushing loss.

      Well written piece my friend.

      Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost~John Quincy Adams  
      • NJOCK (672 posts)
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        15. Ditto Silver.

        Almost exactly what I wanted to post. The only difference is mine had swear words in it. I try on the intertoobs to watch what I fucking say. 

        “The first revolution is when you change your mind about how you look at things, and see there might be another way to look at it that you have not been shown. What you see later on is the results of that, but that revolution, that change that takes place will not be televised.” -Gil Scott-Heron
        • Silver Witch (6163 posts)
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          21. Well we don't want to embarrass our fucking selves do we…

          <giggle>  I try to say the swearing for …oh shit I swear all the time – who am I trying to fool.

           

          Have a wonderful day.

          Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost~John Quincy Adams  
    • MistaP (7342 posts)
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      20. even the staunchest defenders say Trump didn't collude with Russia and Russian

      meddling didn’t make him president, and are hoping to nab him on obstruction or check kiting: they can’t even accuse Russia of anything, and the last 50 times they said Moscow subverted our democracy got shot down

      there’s a reason that people doubting anything are contempted as “proofers”

      we already know it’s all rooted entirely in Steele and the 2015 claim of DNC malware (that they jumped on when probably-Rich sneakernetted evidence of their crimes)–and both those incidents were connected at first degree to the covering up of the Chappaqua server by McCable, Strzok, Ohr, etc. who were also neck-deep in Fusion GPS, which provides the sole “Trump campaign member approaches Russians asking for dirt on Hillary” incident

      they overhyped it because they thought Trump was an easy collar–and I myself do believe that Comey’s testimony would’ve started impeachment proceedings for literally any other presidential figure, had they not built it up so much beforehand for nearly a year since the DNCleaks

      http://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentionally-created-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/ (Third Way = Bell Curve)
    • Ohio Barbarian (7197 posts)
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      22. Fair questions. Here is what I know, or think I know.

      Russian Intelligence actually did attempt to influence the last election, but the attempts were small-scale and largely ineffectual. IP addresses linked to Russian intelligence agencies did buy a few hundred thousand dollars–compare that to Hillary’s BILLION dollar campaign chest for the proper perspective–to buy a few Facebook ads. They also tweeted a few things. The ads and tweets I’ve actually seen look amateurish at best. If this is the best the Russians can do, I don’t think we have anything to really worry about. They were anti-Hillary or pro-Trump, but were at least as stupid as the words that came out of Trump’s mouth.

      I have seen zero evidence that any Russian hacked the DNC emails. I’ve seen quite a bit of evidence, on this board, that they were leaked to Wikileaks from a DNC insider. Assange confirms this, but refuses to name his source, and he is right to refuse to do so.

      The DNC emails, no matter how they got to Wikileaks, were genuine. This fact is not disputed by anyone and they prove that the DNC conspired with the Clinton campaign to make sure that there was no way Hillary would lose the primary. In short, they prove the Democratic Party leadership is as corrupt as their Republican counterparts.

      The FBI, under the Obama Administration, did illegally get a FISA warrant to eavesdrop on someone connected to the Trump campaign at least once. Trump himself has a long history of financial dealings with Russian oligarchs and probably engaged in illegal money-laundering activities. I don’t know whether Mueller is looking into any of this.

      Trump has refused to impose sanctions on Russia that Congress, rightly or wrongly, voted for. I don’t know why. For once, he’s not talking. Personally, I think sanctions are usually ineffective at forcing other governments to change their behavior. Not always, but usually. In this case, they will fail miserably, so why bother? And they never impact the people in charge, anyway.

      Both Democrats and Republicans are throwing around outrageously questionable conspiracy theories like kids in a park with a truckload of Frisbees. Some people take anything one side or the other says as the Revealed Truth, depending on how much they like, or hate, either Hillary or The Donald.

      The Democrats are clearly using McCarthyite tactics, smearing anyone who disagrees with accusations of treason and, more importantly, fully supporting a crackdown on freedom of political speech on the internet, which is fucking unconstitutional. Our ruling oligarchy definitely wants that to happen, because it is a threat to their power, so you don’t exactly see Republicans up there front-and-center defending net neutrality, either. Neither party wants that, because their donors mostly don’t. When was the last time you even heard net neutrality mentioned on the MSM, anyway? It’s been a while since I have.

      In short, there’s a power struggle going on between different factions of our ruling elite, and the whole Russiagate thing is where they are focused on battering each other. Meanwhile, both find it a great distraction from real issues that matter to the rest of us, such as income inequality, unaffordable health care, debt slavery, climate change and its effects, voter suppression, unaffordable education, a whole shitload of other things I’m sure you can add, and endless imperial war for profit.

       

      Ignorance is the foundation of tyranny.   
    • Enthusiast (11527 posts)
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      23. The DNC tells Big BOLD Lies!

      "I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country." Thomas Jefferson
    • Wood (1364 posts)
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      26. I'm starting to think the people in Congress and the media are all really stupid

      Relatively, fairly stupid; mediocre, not good at original critical thought.

      Plus a ton of them are already senile and I should know.

       

      "All things wrong will move on if you let them."  - Prem Rawat
    • vattel (1795 posts)
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      35. who disproved them?

      “The claims that the DNC server was hacked by Russia have been disproved.  Over and over again, by our own intelligence officials.”

      • davidthegnome (1990 posts)
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        36. Here is one example.

        https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/nsa-genius-debunks-russiagate-once-for-all/?no_frame=1

        This shows Jimmy Dore interviewing an NSA agent who very convincingly explains why it is basically impossible that the server was hacked from Russia.

        “There is no distinctly native American criminal class save Congress.” - Mark Twain
        • vattel (1795 posts)
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          37. this is debated by the experts. nothing has been proven one way or the other.

          • davidthegnome (1990 posts)
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            38. The burden of proof

            Lies with the accuser.  Doesn’t it seem just a little suspicious to you the the DNC won’t let the FBI investigate the matter by checking out the server?  That could put this debate to rest… But they don’t allow it, even during this time when mainstream democrats are praising the FBI.

            There is no… And I mean no evidence at all, that the information on that server was released via a Russian hack.

            So, emails that certainly gave significant evidence of the DNC rigging the primaries… none of which anyone can even credibly claim is at all untrue…

            Followed up by a rush of anti Russia propaganda and even hysteria.

            The whole thing stinks.  You’ve got media, even late night comedians, regular people all over the Country and politicians spreading allegations (absurd allegations, given the lack of evidence) as if they are fact.

            Oh, yep… yep… damn Russians made Trump President.

            It’s bull shit, but somehow millions are convinced, as mainstream democrats become ever more hawkish on Russia.

            “There is no distinctly native American criminal class save Congress.” - Mark Twain
            • vattel (1795 posts)
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              41. I certainly agree that the Russian hysteria is ridiculous and dangerous given

              that Russia could launch a devastating nuclear attack against us.  But I guess I am not sure what to think about the claim that Russia hacked into the DNC server.  According to Crowdstrike, cozy bear’s footprints were there, and given the sort of info cozy bear goes after, they look like they work for a government.  (Or so I am told.  Who can I trust is a big question for me.)

              Bottom line for me: I really don’t know what happened, or why the FBI relied on Crowdstrike for information rather than looking at the servers themselves.  I agree with you that does seem suspicious.  I do think it is great that the information about the DNC came out.  The more we know, the better decisions we can make.  So if the leak was from an internal source armed with a memory stick, my thanks goes to him or her.  If the Russian government did it through hacking, my thanks goes to them.

              If we had more government transparency and less corruption in the DNC, this wouldn’t even be an issue.

          • INTJ (3016 posts)
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            39. So then, if there is debate, what are the items in dispute?

            It’s not the mere presence of people willing to argue that casts doubt, but rather the capacity for one side to more credibly show their argument to be better than the faulty presentation of the other side.

            Consequently, mere assertions of the existence of debate, have little to do with actual issues for experts to doubt.  And that applies to debates on Flat Earth, Creationism, global climate change, or the non-personhood of human fetuses by people claiming some sort of special expertise that is usually ancillary to the specifics being questioned.

            Moreover, some things are only debated by persons whose expertise is in being charlatans.  Some of these things are debated with special definitions which themselves establish nothing more than the crux of argument being centered on unaccepted special definitions to evade the core issues to be settled.

            The nature of American political/legal culture is adversarialism.  Pumping adversaries into the media stream may well be a never ending  process intended to prevent political/legal debate from ever being settled.  The presence of people willing to enter into such obstructionism as “debate” says nothing about the goodness of the arguments or their good faith in making them.

            So, what is it that you think is being offered in the “debate by experts” that suggests the DNC “hacking” was done by Russian agents via the internet rather than by direct download onto a memory stick stuck in a port at the server, which was located in the eastern time zone/on the east coast of the US?

             

            I'm not going to argue  ...  just post 2 faux-facs and I'll see them in the morning.
            • vattel (1795 posts)
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              40. One thing that is debated by genuine experts

              is the issue my post addressed: Binney’s claim that it was technologically unfeasible for the information to have been hacked as opposed to being downloaded onto a memory stick.  Some genuine experts whose motives I have no reason to doubt disagree with Binney.  I have read some of the arguments by both sides, but I confess that I lack the technical expertise to be confident about who has the better arguments.  Nevertheless, it seems to me that Binney’s case depends on some questionable assumptions.

              As for the broader argument of whether the Russian government did steal DNC data, I think the public is somewhat in the dark about the evidence that might be available.  Allegedly, cozy bear (or fancy bear, I can’t remember which) did hack into the DNC computers.  And there is reason to suspect that cozy bear is supported by the Russian government.  No doubt parts of the US government knows bunches more about this.  But who knows if they are completely full of shit in claiming that the Russian government through cozy bear did take the DNC data.  It’s really hard for the ordinary citizen to assess the truth of the claims being made.

              My view is that whoever did get the DNC stuff to WikiLeaks deserves kudos for helping to inform the US citizenry of the corruption of the DNC.  But I simply don’t know who to thank for this service to our democracy.

              • INTJ (3016 posts)
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                42. It's sort of curious that you name Binney, but none of your experts.

                Why would that be?

                And then fall back to things that you don’t know well enough to discuss.   Why would that be?

                I'm not going to argue  ...  just post 2 faux-facs and I'll see them in the morning.
                • vattel (1795 posts)
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                  43. rofl. typical. At least you didn't say that my failure to name experts "speaks

                  volumes”.

                  Here is a good discussion: https://www.thenation.com/article/a-leak-or-a-hack-a-forum-on-the-vips-memo/#vips-dissent

                  There are experts on all sides that take part in the discussion.  Do I have to name them?

                  • INTJ (3016 posts)
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                    44. THAT is EXACTLY what I was thinking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                    I'm not going to argue  ...  just post 2 faux-facs and I'll see them in the morning.