‘It’s pretty much inevitable’ that Trump will try to stage a coup and overthrow democracy: Yale historian Tim Snyder

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    • #11794
      eridani
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 11,985

      https://www.rawstory.com/2019/01/pretty-much-inevitable-trump-will-try-stage-coup-overthrow-democracy-yale-historian-tim-snyder/

      We asked for it by saying that history was over in 1989 [with the end of the Cold War]. By saying that nothing bad could [ever] happen again, we were basically inviting something bad to happen.

      Our story about how nothing could [ever] go wrong was a story about how human nature is the free market and the free market brings democracy, so everything is hunky-dory — and of course every part of that story is nonsense. The Greeks understood that democracy is likely to produce oligarchy because if you don’t have some mechanism to get inequality under control then people with the most money will likely take full control.

      One of the problems with American discourse is that we just assume everybody is a friendly democratic parliamentarian pluralist until proven otherwise. And then even when it’s proven otherwise we don’t have any vocabulary for it. He’s a “dictator.” He’s an “authoritarian.” He’s “Hitler.” We just toss these words around.

      The pushback that you are talking about is 95 percent bad. Americans do not want to think that there is an alternative to what we have. Therefore, as soon as you say “fascism” or whatever it might be, then the American response is to say “no” because we lack the categories that allow us to think outside of the box that we are no longer in.

      Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

    • #11816
      MistaP
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,201

      the fact that he hasn’t declared martial law in over 2 years is proof!! positive!! that he’ll do so tomorrow!!!

      and, after all, we can’t afford to be wrong

    • #11818
      doh1304
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,904

      Trump derangement syndrome in a nutshell. The author’s logic is sound, but his conclusion fails because of his hatred of Trump. Trump is an egomaniac, not a megalomaniac. He does not have the vision to declare himself  dictator. Hillary did. Nancy and Chuck consider themselves the primus inter pares of a system that will elevate them to dictators. Trump is a con man, he needs a democracy to game. The Democrats are zealots of fundamentalist corruptionism. Their goal is to destroy the system so that their masters can achieve absolute power. If America becoms a dictatorial kleptocracy it will be the Democrats, not Trump.

      • #11843
        ravensong
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 2,222

        I think Trump Derangement Syndrome better characterizes those who refuse to recognize the privatized authoritarian phascist state that Trump and his billionaire phascist peers are implementing faster than the speed of light.  This is reality, right now.  Hillary lost.  Up to recently, Democrats had been totally out of power for two years, and still have no real power. Trump is a deadly immediate threat and a clear and present danger to democracy and the people of the United States, and the world as well.

        Trump is a dangerous phascist.  It was just announced that Trump is shifting billions of dollars from Veterans Hospitals into the private sector, according to the long time plan and goal of the Koch Brothers founded organization Concerned Veterans for America.  It’s actually more like Conservative Veterans for Phascism.

        Everything Trump does illustrates that he is a ruthless, corrupt, lying, conscienceless megalomaniac, intent on implementing a Revolutionary Dictatorship of the Corporate Oligarch.

        Now for the obligatory “yes, I know, Democratic party establishment sucks”. That shouldn’t stop anyone with a lick of  perceptiveness, decency, and common sense from recognizing that Trump is a dedicated authoritarian phascist who is rapidly dismantling everything that is good about our country.

        Trump clearly hates democracy. Here’s a clue.  (Actually, if you were in my presence, it would come off more like a desperate frustrated scream for people to wake up)…

        <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>He’s already staging a coup to overthrow democracy under the cloak of an administration that has zero p h u c k i n g transparency.</span>

        <span style=”color: #000000;”>Just in case anyone missed it:</span>

        <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>He’s already staging a coup to overthrow democracy under the cloak of an administration that has zero p h u c k i n g transparency.</span>

        Why, just this morning, to my great surprise, I woke up and found out that Trump is suddenly privatizing the VA.  I have a lot of Vietnam vet ex-pat friends who love the VA just the way it is.  They get free medical care from the government. They love it.

        If those who are taking that mother’s little helper blue pill tranquilizer that causes them to go numb and feel “Well, Democrats are worse than Republicans, and Trump is better than Hillary and just a harmless egomaniac, so it’s cool, don’t worrrrry!”, they just might wake up tomorrow and find that the Trump administration has declared the US a privatized corporate state and Trump is the permanent CEQ.

        “A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by a majority.” ~ Booker T. Washington

        The truth is, there’s no such thing as being “anti-Fascist.” Either you are a decent human being with a conscience, or you are a fascist.
        ~ Unknown

    • #11844
      djean111
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 8,792

      IMO Trump has not done anything Hillary would not have done.  The Kochs have their tentacles into the DNC/Democratic Party too.

      If Trump declared tomorrow that an ADDITIONAL 3% would be taken out of workers’ paychecks, and handed to the Blackstone Group to gamble in the stock market with, to rake fees from, to not be accountable for losses, to use to purchase, for example, those rental derivatives that are pretty much as worthless as mortgage derivatives were – would y’all be up in arms?  That is what HILLARY was going to do.  Blackstone Group had the sadz when Hillary lost.  Hillary (and Warren) believe in “markets”, which means privatization.

      The Trump Derangement Syndrome is being nurtured in order to scare up money and votes for the DNC/Democratic Party.  That$1.5 BILLION or so that Hillary disappeared has, IMO, whet their appetites.  Additional sad and skeevy fact – the DNC said – in court documents – that it certainly does have the right to name any candidate it wants to for the nomination, and therefore any primaries chicanery was really not illegal, because the DNC is a private corporation.  In fact, I think Hillary owns it, because she paid off the huge debts Obama left it with.

      America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)

      "Sometimes when I try to understand a person's motives, I play a little game. I assume the worst. What's the worst reason they could possibly have for saying what they say and doing what they do? Then I ask myself, 'How well does that reason explain what they say and what they do?'" GRRM

      A YouTube comment – we need new conspiracy theories – the old ones have all come true.

      • #11855
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 25,033

        What Hillary would have done is irrelevant. What Trump is doing now is relevant, yet you and others are taking the position that no matter what Trump does, Hillary and the Vichy Dems would be worse, with the implication that calls to remove this mentally ill Fascist from office is somehow an endorsement of Hillary Clinton and her ilk.

        Nothing could be further from the truth. It is not “drivel”  to say that Trump wants to declare himself dictator. No, it is you who is peddling drivel by claiming that a CEO who is accustomed to dictatorial power in his own sphere doesn’t want to do the same in his current position, especially when one of his few consistencies has been either attacks upon or derisive comments about our constitutional system of government with structural checks and balances.

        No one here is blind to the evils of the Vichy Democrats, but to be blind to the danger of Trumpism is akin to a Frenchman in World War II saying it is better to have the Nazis in charge than to have the Fascist Vichy French in charge.

        Never let your morals stop you from doing the right thing.--Isaac Asimov

        The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them.--Julius Nyerere

      • #11867
        ravensong
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 2,222

        Although I think Clinton was a terrible candidate, and would have done some nasty things, most behind the scenes, I feel that the belief that Trump has not done anything that Clinton would have done is absolutely ludicrous, and something that can, and will, never be known.

        What we do know, the reality, is that Trump is dismantling everything good about our country right now.  The belief that Clinton and Democrats are bad in no way justifies the evil,m anti-progressive, anti-democratic, authoritarian, dictatorial, destructive phascist policies that Trump has pushed or gotten in place since he took office.

        No.  Trump sucks, He’s evil, and his actions prove this beyond dispute.  Nothing you have written justifies Trump’s actions, and nothing you have written negates the fact that he is a destructive force to everything on our planet.

        The argument that “Democrats suck too” used by some in order to support and defend Trump, deflect criticism of him, and justify his evil actions, is a complete, and suspect, failure of logic.

        I’m a progressive Bernie supporter, registered non-party, despise the DNC.  No argument you use (like but, but,,,Hillary owns the DNC!) to justify Trump’s actions will make his actions any less evil.

        Telling the truth about Trump is not, In. Any. Way. a nefarious device for gaining support for the Democratic party.

        It’s just clear and present phucking plain and simple fact and truth. He’s totally dangerous, and the overwhelming majority of Bernie or Jill Stein supporting progressives recognize this fact beyond the shadow of a doubt.

        Phuck! aaargh!

         

        “A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by a majority.” ~ Booker T. Washington

        The truth is, there’s no such thing as being “anti-Fascist.” Either you are a decent human being with a conscience, or you are a fascist.
        ~ Unknown

      • #11874
        ravensong
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 2,222

        Ya know, OB, with apologies to Shakespeare…

        …”the ladies doth protest too much, methinks”

        “A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by a majority.” ~ Booker T. Washington

        The truth is, there’s no such thing as being “anti-Fascist.” Either you are a decent human being with a conscience, or you are a fascist.
        ~ Unknown

        • #11924
          djean111
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 8,792

          If your implication is that I am a Trump supporter……a bunch of euphemisms come to mind, but I thought we were not supposed to attack other posters.

          America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)

          "Sometimes when I try to understand a person's motives, I play a little game. I assume the worst. What's the worst reason they could possibly have for saying what they say and doing what they do? Then I ask myself, 'How well does that reason explain what they say and what they do?'" GRRM

          A YouTube comment – we need new conspiracy theories – the old ones have all come true.

      • #11877
        sonofspy777
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 6,358

        +1000  Ravensong and OhioBarbarian

        djean you’re just wrong on this, Ravnsong put it brilliantly

         

        see it’s not what Trump wants, IT”S WHAT THE KOCH BROTHERS WANT!

         

         

        eom.

         

        “Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”
        ~Samuel Clemens

        • #11928
          djean111
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 8,792

          Oh, I guess I missed the BRILLIANT part where the MIC goes along with Trump, or the brilliant part where Congress does nothing to upset their fabulously profitable apple cart.

          America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)

          "Sometimes when I try to understand a person's motives, I play a little game. I assume the worst. What's the worst reason they could possibly have for saying what they say and doing what they do? Then I ask myself, 'How well does that reason explain what they say and what they do?'" GRRM

          A YouTube comment – we need new conspiracy theories – the old ones have all come true.

      • #11910
        Mr. Mickeys Mom
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 8,158

        I already lost 4% trying to keep our nest egg in a financial instrument this year!

        Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

      • #11955
        MistaP
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 3,201

        every 2-3 months we get a “bombshell,” Trump’s about to declare himself a dictator, it’ll be too late, and then instead this rectal canker of an administration rattles on as it always does

        9-11-17 passed without incident when many were certain there’d be a repeat and then a coup, 9-11-18 again; or was it when the 2018 elections were going to be suspended over Stormy Daniels

        impeachment and/or martial law’s always just a few weeks away, and if you “don’t see it” you’re a complicit fifth-columnist whose “blind hatred of the intelligence agencies has led you into a very dangerous place”

        and if you go to the OP it’s a rerun from May 2017

    • #11850
      retired liberal
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 5,107

      Wasn’t bu$h, the lesser going to call off the elections and remain President well past his second term end date? That was being said at the time.
      This drivel about Trump declaring himself dictator, or whatever, isn’t going to happen either. He just isn’t smart enough to pull it off, in the first place. For starts he’d need the military here to enforce his take over. Our military is not here, it is scattered all over the globe. And that’s assuming they’d even go along, which is a long reach.

      All we need to do is get rid of Mitch McConnell and this house of cards falls apart.

      We are an arrogant species, believing our fantasy based "facts" are better than the other person's fake facts.
      If Row vs. Wade is overturned, women could lose the right to not get pregnant in 26 states.
      The Republicans are four year olds. The Democrats are six year olds. There are no grownups.
      Normalizing insanity has been the conservative's sweet spot at very least since the beginning..

    • #11853
      game meat
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,637

      Inevitable? All this fear mongering  better materialize into something or these media personalities and DNC insiders sounding the alarm for the last two years are going to look like fools, losing all credibility in the process.

      How will they explain themselves if Trump just goes gently into that good night in 2020 without declaring martial law, and the Russia investigation ends without Trump getting indicted?

      "He busted in, blessed be thy lord
      Who believe any mess they read up on a message board
      If so, I got bridges for the low low" ~ MF DOOM

    • #11894
      Average Gazoo
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 741

      HA!  A coup already happened — JFK wanted to get out of Vietnam so they killed him.  When they killed Bobby they didn’t even try that hard to make it look random.  The DNC, AP news and others conspired to stop Bernie Sanders AND to make Trump one of the nominees. The PTB vet and filter our options and we have only the thinnest illusion of “democracy.”  Trump was <span style=”text-decoration: underline;”>their</span> “pied piper.”

      Trump announced a pullout of Syria and the Sec of Def quits rather than carry it out. Now Pompeo says we are staying in Syria forever…and yet this Yale dude with his hyperbolic (” pretty much inevitable”) nonsense ignores all of that. Ignores the obvious fact that since Trump has almost no influence over military decisions he has no way to execute a coup even if he wanted to.

      If they wanted Trump dead or out of office then he would be dead or gone.  They have been setting the stage for two years and they didn’t even invent new reasons. They just recycled the stuff they used 56 years ago:

      Be the Change

    • #11901
      bazukhov
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,998

      The best laid schemes o’ mice an’ men gang aft a-gley.   Robert Burns

      Particularly if the schemes are laid by bigly nitwits like Trump and his pea-brained followers not yet in jail.

      Tell me, great captain, how do the angels sleep when the devil leaves his porch light on? Tom Waites

    • #11944
      doh1304
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,904

      No one is saying that Trump is not evil. No one – NO ONE – is saying that Trump is not doing horrible, genocidal damage to America. We are in a terrible situation, but our option, President Taliban-Torquemada Pence, is clearly worse. In fact, our “can I have a pony, please? Pony!” President Nancy, is not only pretty much impossible, but it would be replacing a thief with a violent, fascistic (not “phascistic” – “Ooh look! See the silly boys with their black boots and their brown shirts? Aren’t they walking funny?”) identity politics Orwellian terror state. That is suicidal. As much as I hated Ronald Reagan I would never replace the Reagan revolution with Mao’s cultural revolution.

      Calling Trump a kleptomaniac is not lessening his evil, it is the truth. Mischaracterizing that evil, however, is more than a bad strategy, it is playing into his hands. And admitting that the alternatives would be worse  is not “irrelevant”, not doing so is shortsighted. We allowed ourselves to be put in this position and now we’re complaining. Well it just might be too late for that.

    • #11949
      Bellicose Lugosi
      Member
      • Total Posts: 214

      It’s Trumps decorum that they find offensive not really his policies.  We want the used car salesman.  The slick talking weasel.  Lie to me.  Lie to me!  We know the political mouth of America is rotten but we prefer the shiny veneers to the rotten teeth – problem is, it’s the same f u cking mouth.

      It's alright Ma, it's life and life only.

    • #11957
      MistaP
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,201
    • #11968
      chknltl
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,848

      Sorta like Bush did directly after 9-11? FWIW i DO recall such discourse over at SV back then.

      Looking into my crystal ball…i see nothing but my own reflection but using and comparing Italian history to recent U.S. history i come up with this:

      Fascism:

      The word and philosophy is created by an Italian professor (Giovanni Gentile) durring the world wide great depression.

      It describes a form of government of by and for a country’s means of production and its major corporations.

      Mussolini took the idea and ran with it (i believe), he used it to offer up jobs to the starving Italians.

      When he took power, Mussolini fired Italy’s Congress and replaced it with representatives from Italy’s primary means of production and major corporations. He also jump started Italy’s military.

      This created the jobs the Italian citizenry needed, helping to pull them out of the world wide great depression. The Italians loved him for this.

      What went down next did not go so well for the Italians. They rapidly found themselves stuck with an out of control Military Industrial Complex and a dictator/strongman who buddied up with Hitler-they found themselves in unwinnable wars.

      I would argue that Fascism: A government of by and for a country’s means of production and it’s corporations, leads to jobs at first but in the end, history shows us that greed within causes it to grow into it’s own destruction.

      Dictator Fascism: Is the same (IMO), as regular fascism but in order to hold onto power the dictator must maintain the loyalty of his/her military and the majority of the citizenry.

      There is no democracy here, if voting is allowed you vote for the dictator period. (Saddam Hussein, Kim jong Un).

      Is the U.S.A. becoming fascist? There are definitely similarities with both democrats and republicans fighting tooth and nail over which of their corporate donars will get the most money but…

      IMO the citizenry will come together to stop anyone from becoming a dictator. (Bush, Clinton or Trump would have/still would face impeachment before We The People allowed it to happen but again this is just my opinion).

      Eventually the citizenry of the U.S. needs to set aside it’s political bias in order to regain it’s own governance which I believe is indeed slipping into Professor Giovanni’s vision of fascism….

      …or it won’t.

       

    • #12197
      JustSayin
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 535

      Oh Puhleeeeaaaaazzzz. The Trump derangement syndrome is 10x worse than the Obama’s Kenyan syndrome. I have not seen Trump do much different that BO or Bill to warrant such rumours. IMHO TDS is just another front to allow the dems to run away from progressive issues like medicare 4 all and sincethe russia racism did not work the establishment is looks for 2020 fear mongering

      Never expect different result by following the previous steps

    • #12234
      sadoldgirl
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,742

      Published May 17? How long does “inevitable” last? Trump

      is a symptom of the system, not its cause. Up to now he has

      not started a new war*, but if forced to by the PTB he still

      might do so. His bullying threats up to now have lead to

      nowhere. Naturally he supports the oligarchy; he thinks

      that he is an oligarch himself. That had to be expected.

      I equally expected the Dems to become fear mongers,

      and they have, just as they have become warmongers.

       

      *Unlike Bubba(Yugoslavia),W(Afghanistan+Iraq) and

      BO(Ukraine+Libya)

    • #12238
      Bellicose Lugosi
      Member
      • Total Posts: 214

      I’ll post it again for fun – if Trump carried himself like Obama or Bush Sr. what would the Dems attack him on?  Honest question.  What policy of his is way out of order to the corpodemfawkers?

      I can’t come up with one – it’s the poosygrabbin’, racially tinged buffoonery that they are angry with.  We’re getting a look at how the sausage is made and we don’t like what we see.

      People want a calm, cool, collective psychopath not one that wears their disorders on their sleeve.  Gazoo said it best up-thread – if he really wasn’t doing the bidding of the powerful he’d be dead already.

      It's alright Ma, it's life and life only.

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