Jim Jordan owns George Stephanopolous on This Week by shining light on Hunter Biden and the culture of corruption.

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  • #176117

    Ohio Barbarian
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    @ohiobarbarian

    Today’s This Week isn’t up on YouTube yet, and I’m sure as shit not going to pay ABC for the privilege, so apologies for not posting the video. Anyway, Stephanopolous, the Clintonite Vichy Dem corporate media millionaire, had Republican Congresscritter Jim Jordan of Ohio on his show this morning. George repeatedly asked Jordan if he thought it was appropriate for Trump to ask China to investigate the Bidens.

    Edit: @thouartthat posted the entire show below. The segment with Jordan begins at 16:20

    Jordan never directly answered the question, always saying that Trump was being tough on China and knew the Chinese would never open such an investigation. He kept pivoting to his main point, which was to ask George why Hunter Biden was getting paid $50K a month to sit on the board of directors of a Ukrainian natural gas company, and clearly inferred he did just because his daddy was Vice-President of the United States at the time.

    Jordan was clearly, and correctly, saying that it is hypocritical for Democrats to attack Trump for corrupt foreign dealings when they themselves do it all the time. George kept saying that question had been asked and answered, and there was no illegality in the Bidens’ moneyraking which, while true, still misses the gigantic political point that it’s still obviously corrupt.

    Could my stepson or daughter get appointed to the board of directors of a multibillion dollar company in any country when they don’t know jack about what the company does? Could yours? Of course not! Hunter Biden can. Chelsea Clinton can. For that matter, Ivanka Trump can. That was Jordan’s point—systemic political corruption exists, is widespread, and the Democrats are engaged in the pot calling the kettle black with this impeachment inquiry based on Trump’s call to the Ukrainian president to investigate the Bidens, and the alleged Clintonite Crowdstrike thing, for that matter.

    Politically, it’s not whether it’s legal or not that matters, it’s whether it’s corrupt or not, and whether that rises to the level of an impeachable offense. Technically, legally, it does, but a president is not going to be removed from office on a transparently hypocritical legal technicality. Eligible voters do care about corruption, but when both sides are corrupt, legally or not, those voters see them as being equally bad and won’t cast their votes on that basis. The corrupt Vichy Democrats either foolishly think they will, or they don’t care so long as the money keeps rolling their way.

    All Jim Jordan did was to shine a light in that direction, and voters will get it, whether Joe Biden likes it or not. It doesn’t matter whether Trump or Jordan are corrupt; all that matters is that Joe Biden and his fellow Corruptocrats are just as corrupt.

    It’s the corruption, stupid. It’s the kleptocracy, and millionaire talking heads like George Stephanopolous will never bring that up because they are running dog lackeys of the kleptocratic regime themselves. They’re not about to go after their very own golden goose. Even reformist politicians like Elizabeth Warren will only go so far, for her campaign said that it would be perfectly OK for a Vice-President’s adult child to do the same thing that Hunter Biden did.

    Bernie Sanders, I just handed you a political rocket-propelled grenade. Please use it on your corrupt Democratic opponents.

    We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

    With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

  • #176119

    N2Doc
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    @n2doc

    Except Biden isn’t President. He should have been impeached back when he was VP.

    • #176170

      Ohio Barbarian
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      @ohiobarbarian

      @n2doc

      So should Bush and Cheney. So what? It doesn’t matter now.

      We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

      With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

      • #176172

        N2Doc
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        @n2doc

        Sort of the point I was trying to make. Just because other corruption has been ignored doesn’t make it right now. Otherwise, why bother even pretending we have laws, just let whomever the oligarchs pick for Prez do whatever the hell they want to the rest of us.

        • #176248

          Ohio Barbarian
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          @ohiobarbarian

          @n2doc Exactly. That sums it up nicely.

          We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

          With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

  • #176176

    game meat
    Member
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    @gamemeat

    All Jim Jordan did was to shine a light in that direction, and voters will get it, whether Joe Biden likes it or not.

    Yea, the media scrambling to cover for Biden will not end well for Biden. Only the most hyperpartisan of true blue believers and shills will stand by him, and all they really have in his defense is, “But Trump’s kids…”

    Of course, Jim Jordan is no better. In a reversal of roles, he would be saying, “But Biden’s son…” These people are always guilty of what they accuse each other of doing.

    There are two kinds of contortionists: front benders and back benders.

    • #176249

      Ohio Barbarian
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      @ohiobarbarian

      @gamemeat Indeed, this segment of This Week, as it is every week, was filled with hypocrites cheering for their respective, equally corrupt teams. Jordan’s certainly no exception. He’s just spinning the facts to equate the Bidens with the Trumps, but it is an effective political tactic so long as the other side is just as bad as his own. Bernie is immune from this sort of thing. Warren is less so because she won’t commit to eliminating the corruption the Democratic establishment lives on.

      Biden is as corrupt as the Clintons, and that dog has already been proven not to hunt.

      We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

      With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

  • #176178

    Cold Mountain Trail
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    @coldmountaintrail

    +++++

  • #176180

    David the Gnome
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    @davidthegnome

    @ohiobarbarian

    So, help me out here.  He sat on the board – did he actually do anything of value for the company beyond investing in it?  For what did he earn 50K a month?  I know how corrupt these politicians are – but 50K a month for doing… basically… nothing?  So, 600K yearly.  Let’s see… in one month, he earned more than most American workers earn in a year?  For doing… what, exactly?  Yet, this is entirely legal – and we are expected to believe that there was no kind of shady dealing between the VP and the company and/or China?

    This is just hard for me to fathom.  I think my highest ever earned income for a year was around 20K before taxes – and that was a year in which I worked my butt off, working plenty of overtime, too.  If I recall correctly, my wage was somewhere between 8.50 and 9.00 an hour.  This was just slightly above the minimum wage at the time, which, if I remember right, was 8.

    Now for the last 7 or 8 months, I’ve been receiving supplemental security income, which pays 771 a month.  In order to get this, I had to prove I could not reasonably be expected to work in any kind of traditional job.  Further, I had to get the support of a psychologist, a psychiatrist, a doctor, a therapist.  I was denied 3 times first – and I can’t even count the number of medical tests, or the amount of paperwork, or the meetings I had to go to.  9,252 is the total I will end up getting yearly – until my review comes up and I have to go through yet another process, unless of course they determine that I am no longer disabled…

    Yet, they are cutting food stamps, free school lunches, education, they are attempting to cut Medicaid, medicare and social security… Most Americans (if I understand the statistics correctly) earn less than 50K a year.  The median, as it is called, tends to go by household income, which can make for some confusion, but the majority of individual workers earn less than 50.  28,800 is what a full time worker making 15 dollars an hour earns – before taxes.  At 20 dollars an hour, it’s 38,400 before taxes.  At 25 an hour, you’re looking at 48,000 as a yearly amount – again, before taxes.  This is working forty hours a week, at each respective amount.  At Maine’s current minimum wage, a full time job will earn you 21,120 a year – again, before taxes.

    This is fucking insane.  They babble about entitlements and tell us to tighten our belts, they tell us we can’t afford medicare for all, or single payer, or to improve our education or overall infrastructure.  They tell us we can’t expand or improve the safety net.  Yet, one of their kids gets 50K a month because his daddy is the VP?

    I feel sick.

    • #176250

      Ohio Barbarian
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      @ohiobarbarian

      @davidthegnome You should feel sick. That’s the point, but the kleptocrats don’t give a shit about you. They don’t know anyone like you; everyone they hang out with is doing splendidly, thank you very much. The corrupt Democrats will say they care,  then turn around and cooperate with Republicans to cut your benefits, and then when you protest, tell you that they bled you less that the R’s would have and to shut up and vote for them, you low class ingrate.

      Then they don’t understand why you either don’t vote or vote Green or something. This is just one more reason why they don’t deserve to be in a position of power over you and me.

      We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

      With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

      • #176436

        ColorsoftheRainbow
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        @colorsoftherainbow

        @ohiobarbarian writes,

        Then they [the corporate Democratic Party Establishment] don’t understand why you either don’t vote or vote Green or something. This is just one more reason why they don’t deserve to be in a position of power over you and me.

        The corrupt, corporate, Democratic Party Establishment—a.k.a. Vichy Democrats—do understand.

        But, considering how the operate, the corrupt, corporate, Democratic Party Establishment has found it needs to sucker people to continue to Vote Blue No Matter Who.

        The corrupt, corporate, Democratic Party Establishment wants to have people who usually prefer the Democrats to the Republicans convinced that they need those corrupt, corporate Democrats because—if you don’t Vote Blue No Matter Who—the Republican Party will win. And if the Republican Party wins, we will all lose because the Republicans will destroy everything so good that came from the corrupt, corporate, Democratic Party Establishment. And because you did not Vote Blue No Matter Who, you contributed to allowing this evil to happen. Never mind that the 2016 Hillary Clinton campaign propped up Donald Trump and his campaign with its “Pied Piper Candidates” strategy. You, who did not Vote Blue No Matter Who, allowed this to happen.

        The corrupt, corporate, Democratic Party Establishment mindfucks. It does so for…control. And they want people who usually prefer the Democrats to the Republicans to shut up for and stay loyal to them with their votes. So, Vote Blue No Matter Who.

        Vote Blue No Matter Who means: Surrender Your Mind.

        Much of this reminds me of what was said by Dylan Ratigan in the following video played on The Jimmy Dore Show.

    • #177986

      Maedhros
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      @maedhros

      @davidthegnome:

      Remember that in these situations it’s always the personality of the political rival that is the problem and not the actions taken by that personality.

      The second we start focusing on the bad actions at the core of these allegations, we see that individuals on both sides of the aisle are implicated in some kind of scandalous corruption.

      Just remember that operatives from both parties – whether on television, YouTube, Twitter, or places like SV or DKos (or even here) – are trying to sell you a narrative that forwards their agenda for consolidating power.  They are not by any stretch altruistic truth-tellers or even trustworthy sources of information.

      His body recovered from his torment and became hale,
      but the shadow of his pain was in his heart;
      and he lived to wield his sword with left hand
      more deadly than his right had been.

  • #176183

    Two way street
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    @twowaystreet

    Perfect opportunity for Bernie to come forward and say to the America People, that he needs for these kinds of politicians to never hold office or be voted out of office in Nov 2020.  And that he needs a progressive Congress that can vote for legislation to stop the suffering and make the application in to law during his first 100 days.

    Corrupt politicians make a pack with the Devil.  Bernie makes a pack with Us. We the People, for, by, and of the People.

    2020 Campaign Season: We the People are in the fight for our lives and livelihoods.

    • #176266

      Haikugal
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      @haikugal

      @twowaystreet. Absolutely!

      No offense but….I think the word you’re looking for is ‘pact’…Bernie has a pact with the people.

       

      Did You Know?

      Pact has “peace” at its root because a pact often ends a period of unfriendly relations. The word is generally used in the field of international relations, where diplomats may speak of an “arms pact”, a “trade pact”, or a “fishing-rights pact”. But it may also be used for any solemn agreement or promise between two people; after all, whenever two parties shake hands on a deal, they’re not about to go to war with each other.

      https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pact

      The Dirty Fucking Hippies Were Right!

      We do what we can, what we must and we hope for the best while expecting nothing.~ Me

  • #176192

    ThouArtThat
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    @thouartthat

    @ohiobarbarian

    Hi ob,

    Today’s this week video below.

    TAT

    "They must find it difficult ... Those who have taken authority as the truth,
    Rather than truth as the authority."
    - Gerald Massey

    "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
    - Jiddu Krishnamurti

    “Wisdom tells me I am nothing.  Love tells me I am everything. And between the two my life flows."
    - Nisargadatta Maharaj

    • #176251

      Ohio Barbarian
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      @ohiobarbarian

      Thanks! The Jordan segment begins at 16:20. It’s truly a hoot.

      We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

      With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

  • #176193

    lownslow
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    @lownslow

    It may be a while before ol Jim is invited back on This Week😉

  • #176194

    David the Gnome
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    @davidthegnome

    On a sidenote – I’m trying to figure out how many individual American workers (full time) actually make over 30K a year.  The statistics and information I’m finding on this seems to be wildly varied – and the most reliable appearing one I’ve seen so far indicates that over 40% of Americans in 2015 earned less than 30K per year.  Currently, I think State Senators are paid approximately 192K per year.  Here is a more detailed look at what our politicians earn: https://www.thoughtco.com/salaries-and-benefits-of-congress-members-3322282

    As of 2019, the base salary for all rank-and-file members of the U.S. House and Senate was $174,000 per year, plus benefits. Salaries have not been increased since 2009. Compared to private-sector salaries, the salaries of members of Congress is lower than many mid-level executives and managers.

    Now, consider that most states and/or cities do not have a minimum wage as high as 15 an hour.  In fact, for where I live, that would be considered really good pay – and that is less than 30K per year, working forty hours a week.

    So, we pay each member of congress and the Senate several times over what most Americans actually earn, yearly – this is in addition to getting some of the best benefits available anywhere in the world.  Hunter Biden earned about three times that amount, not as a public servant, not as a full time employee, but as a vice president’s son who sat on the board for an energy company – note that he had nothing on his resume to qualify him for that task.  He had no special training or education as regards the field.

    Trump, of course, earns a lot more from various income streams.  The Presidential salary alone, however, is about 400K per year.  Now, compare that to over 40% of American workers who earned less than 30K in 2015.

    • #176252

      ThouArtThat
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      @thouartthat

      @davidthegnome

      Hi David,

      What I have come to realize is that America is a scam perpetrated by the 1%.  The scam is run by manipulating peoples emotions, both positive and negative.  For example we are exhorted to believe that working excessively hard is virtuous while noting what needs improvement is pessimism.  This allows the 1% to game us collectively because they benefit both ways – we work for them without complaint.  The only way this changes is a collective realization of how the scam is run and for whose benefit.

      TAT

      "They must find it difficult ... Those who have taken authority as the truth,
      Rather than truth as the authority."
      - Gerald Massey

      "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
      - Jiddu Krishnamurti

      “Wisdom tells me I am nothing.  Love tells me I am everything. And between the two my life flows."
      - Nisargadatta Maharaj

      • #176256

        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 7,202
        @ohiobarbarian

        @thouartthat Well said. Loki tells me PT Barnum is applauding you. He’s in the Trickster’s Hall in Asgard, you know.

        We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

        With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

      • #176439

        Cold Mountain Trail
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        • Total Posts: 4,540
        @coldmountaintrail

        Not the only con they’re running, either.

        • #189911

          Enthusiast
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          @enthusiast

          They are using a bottomless bag of cons.

          I would like to remind you that U.S. health insurance companies do not contribute anything to health care. They are only a PARASITIC middle man receiving an undeserved cut of "FREE MONEY".

          Me

    • #176421

      Cold Mountain Trail
      Member
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      @coldmountaintrail

      David, here is a bar graph of median individual income (category: “Education: All”) from census data for 2006.  Census data tends to omit really high earners, so skewed somewhat, but should be very minimal.  Also, not enough info to know whether “All” includes or omits part-time.  I’m guessing it includes p/t.

      https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Education_median_income_1.png

      Looks like median income was a shade under 30K, which means half of workers make <$30K.

      Here’s something from the Fed, median hourly & salary for full-time workers = Average of 2019 1st & 2nd quarter = $905 = $22.6/hr = $47K/year

      https://www.bls.gov/news.release/wkyeng.t01.htm

       

       

  • #176257

    Mr. Mickeys Mom
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    @mrmickeysmom

    The house of corruption knows not one political party. It’s just a matter of how good one party is in going after the other. NONE of this will do anything to engage Americans with anyone running for office or re-election. It will continue to slurry the waters and keep prevent the focus of why we need to get corruption and money out of politics. It’s a bad idea.

    I hear the underlying concerns within this thread. WHY are we engaged with millionaire talking heads in a discussion of over-paid and benefited elected officials and why didn’t we go after in the past or now over war powers that never were decided outside of the unitary executive? War crimes weren’t good enough for impeachment, so WHO THE FUCK is going to buy in to the argument that we have to do anything NOW but clean up our own House?

    Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

  • #176265

    Mick063
    Member
    • Total Posts: 405
    @mick063

    The OP hit this one out of the park.

    The Clinton faction repeatedly tries to base their argument on the corporate press vetting Hunter Biden based upon legality.

    They are way past the optics. Heck, they zoomed past the optics when the DNC lawyers argued against Democracy in a class action lawsuit. Another case of blatant corruption being “vetted” based upon technical legality, not if it is ethical. Way, way past the optics and when the oligarch puppets can legislate unethical profiteering to be technically legal, then apparently that is good enough for proper “vetting”. The latest SV argument is that Hunter has Ivy league credentials and is properly suited to hold this Ukraine position based upon his expertise and intelligence. A guy intelligent enough to get caught using illegal substances while serving in the military. Smart guy. It is arguments like this that qualify those that believe this bullshit for the super duper Lemming award. It is all about access to Dad. Plain as day.

    Top this off with the dumb shits trying to appeal to suburban Republican moms at the expense of base liberals. Moving to the right with gropin’ Joe Biden proclaiming that some Republican legislators are actually good guys.

    Optics don’t mean shit to them. The oligarchs are looking desperate these days.

    "I welcome their hatred" Franklin D Roosevelt

    • #176339

      Ohio Barbarian
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      @ohiobarbarian

      @mick063 +1000. The oligarchy is looking desperate, yet one of their own, Donald Trump, is a bull in their china shop breaking their carefully hoarded Ming vases and spilling out their fetid contents for all to see and smell. He doesn’t give a shit about preserving the order they have constructed since 1981; only about his ratings–ie how often he is the lead story.

      Power always leads to self-destructive madness. For a previous example, look at the Roman Empire.

      We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

      With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

  • #176334

    Babel 17
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    @babel17

    George kept saying that question had been asked and answered, and there was no illegality

    And that’s what the media reported as the truth about the investigation Comey headed regarding Hillary Clinton.

    https://www.tulsi2020.com/

    • #176343

      Ohio Barbarian
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      @ohiobarbarian

      @babel17 It is indeed. It didn’t work then, and it won’t work now. I think they just don’t know WTF else to do, for they’ve done it so often it has become habitual. They need to read up on their John Dewey.

      We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

      With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

  • #176337

    closeupready
    Member
    • Total Posts: 721
    @closeupready

    A.  Men.  I nominate this post for the Daily Radical.  Thank you, OB.  :-)

    The opinions and personal views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and should never be taken seriously.

  • #176341

    David the Gnome
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    @davidthegnome

    I’ll second for the daily radical

    @deadpool

  • #176342

    sadoldgirl
    Member
    • Total Posts: 449
    @sadoldgirl

    All of us decry the corruption, and not just in government.

    Corruption to my mind is as old as the human race, and so

    is bribery. How do you propose to get rid of it? Using

    only meritocracy? It exists there too. When do all of us

    realize that we have only one party, the corporatist

    party. This show has been created to make us believe

    that we have a choice between the Dems and the Reps.

    Well, I won’t fall for that anymore.

    • #176344

      Ohio Barbarian
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      • Total Posts: 7,202
      @ohiobarbarian

      @sadoldgirl I think the death penalty for anyone giving to someone running for or in public office, and to the acceptance of such offers, is the only effective remedy at this point, but what do I know? I’m just a barbarian.

      We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

      With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

      • #176346

        sadoldgirl
        Member
        • Total Posts: 449
        @sadoldgirl

        Okay, OB, but would that not lead to an extremely

        authoritarian government? Exposure could help

        as well, but our corporate media will not do it.

        Russiagate was one beautiful example of that.

         

         

         

         

         

         

        • #176495

          Ohio Barbarian
          Moderator
          • Total Posts: 7,202
          @ohiobarbarian

          Perhaps, but this government for sale must be stopped in order to give our civilization, and maybe our species, a chance at survival. Times are increasingly becoming drastic, and you know what kinds of solutions such times sometimes require. At the very least, there need to be long prison terms and confiscation of wealth.

          We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

          With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

  • #176422

    HassleCat
    Member
    • Total Posts: 1,306
    @hasslecat

    All we get from the two major parties is the tu quoque falacy. “Oh yeah! Well, you did it, too!” I can see why people like Trump, because he wants to drain the swamp, blow up the system, dismantle everything. He’s lying, of course, but it still appeals to voters.

  • #176423

    peacecorps
    Member
    • Total Posts: 1,550
    @peacecorps

    Jim Jordan is from my state. He is a far-right, Trump apologist who, when asked about Trump appealing for foreign help for his 2020 campaign, refuses to answer and comes back with another ‘whataboutism’.

    Whataboutism that attempts to discredit an opponent’s position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument…

    US President Donald Trump has used whataboutism in response to criticism leveled at him, his policies, or his support of controversial world leaders. National Public Radio (NPR) reported, “President Trump has developed a consistent tactic when he’s criticized: say that someone else is worse.” noted Trump chose to criticize the Affordable Care Act when he himself faced criticism over the proposed American Health Care Act of 2017, “Instead of giving a reasoned defense, he went for blunt offense, which is a hallmark of whataboutism.”

    When criticized or asked to defend his behavior, Trump has frequently changed the subject by criticizing Hillary Clinton, the Obama Administration, and the Affordable Care Act.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

    Jim Jordan will defend Trump and the GOP at every corner. And he uses their now classic ‘whataboutism’ distraction tactic rather than answer a question or defend a particular policy. I would not take that from any politician, Bernie or anyone else, if they responded to a policy question with a refusal to answer and diversion to “What about Trump?” or any other hyper-conservative.

    National problems (slavery/racism, income inequality, pathetic health care, weak unions) are not solved with more states' rights. Global problems (climate change, migration, trade, war) are not solved with more national sovereignty.

    A CEO, an American worker and an immigrant sit at a table with a dozen cookies in front of them. The CEO grabs 11 of them, then leans over and warns the worker, "Watch out for the immigrant. He is trying to get your cookie."

    • #176497

      Ohio Barbarian
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      @ohiobarbarian
      I’m from the same state and am quite familiar with this Jordan character. My point is that his whataboutism, as you call it, will work against corrupt Democrats. Only an honest opponent can defeat Trump, because disengaged voters will only become engaged if they have someone to vote for.
       Why this reply looks like a poem is beyond me. @sffh @deadpool ???

      We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

      With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

  • #176430

    snot
    Member
    • Total Posts: 395
    @snot

    In considering either legality or morality, I think we should distinguish between:

    (1) nepotism/cronyism (jobs to family and friends); and

    (2) bribery and extortion (extraction of a quid pro quo that benefits the bribee or extortioner rather than the country or taxpayers, in exchange for otherwise unwarranted favors or benefits, for releasing otherwise withheld benefits, or for refraining from enacting some detriment to the briber or extortionee).

    I have NO problem with competing elite factions trying to rat out one another’s corruption – in fact, I’m grateful for it.  To my mind, this constitutes not election interference but election assistance.  So it’s important to me that to distinguish precisely and narrowly exactly what it is that makes Biden’s or Trump’s conduct problematic, to avoid throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

    To me, the element that’s legally objectionable in both the Biden and Trump stories is the possibility that the quid-pro-quo‘s they sought to extract from Ukraine were primarily for the benefit of themselves or their family members, rather than for U.S. citizens, or even to the detriment of U.S. citizens.

    (I’d also be happy to see other kinds of anti-bribery & -extortion rules enacted, including anti-nepotism rules; but I see that as a separate issue.  I’m not saying we shouldn’t talk about that – I’m a firm proponent, e.g., of Represent.Us’s program – but insofar as impeachment is at stake, it seems to me that both sides are only too eager to cloud the main, legal issue {i.e., the quid-pro-quo for personal benefit rather than the US’s}.)

    An aspect I haven’t seen analyzed clearly is that of whose interests the quid pro quo’s sought really served?

    In the Biden case, whose interests really were served by the firing of the prosecutor?  To answer this, we need to know more details about the prosecutor’s actions and those of his successor, etc.  If the prosecutor really was corrupt and/or ineffective, then his firing served the US; if not, it appears that it served the Bidens.

    In the Trump case, if the results of a Ukrainian investigation of the Bidens were true, the service performed to the US citizens would to my mind outweigh any incidental benefit to Trump.  Unless we’re prepared to say that US presidents should never delay assistance in an attempt to extract additional benefit for US citizens, I don’t think we can say that Trump should not have withheld funds from Ukraine in order to extract true info about the Bidens.

    The complication is, was Trump suborning false results?  To my mind, that might be what one should have to prove in order to impeach him.

    If initial inquiries cleared the Bidens, I personally doubt Trump would have ceased pressing for results more to his liking; but that’s speculative at this point.

    Destruction is easy; creation is hard, but more interesting.

  • #176440

    Mick063
    Member
    • Total Posts: 405
    @mick063

    Sign me up for the “whataboutism” crowd.

    No one here is attempting to benefit Republicans at the expense of Democrats. People here are attempting to benefit citizens at the expense of Oligarchy.

    No one here is defending Republicans by exposing Democrats. People here are exposing political corruption, wherever it may be and whomever it may implicate.

    The “whataboutism” argument, in this instance, is lazy and weak. It diverts from the truth. It relies upon the traditional Democrat verse Republican antagonism, not the working class verse plutocrat battle for ethical, representative government.

    Discussing the fact that Hunter Biden made a half million dollars a year, simply because his dad was Vice President IS NOT “Whataboutism”.  If it is, sign me up for the label. I will wear it like a badge of honor.

     

     

    "I welcome their hatred" Franklin D Roosevelt

    • #176504

      game meat
      Member
      • Total Posts: 774
      @gamemeat

      @mick063

      I agree, but that’s how they use the term. Whataboutism is overused to the point where it’s lost it’s meaning. It’s an issue with both sides (heh) of the two corporate parties. It’s mostly used as a deflection, more of partisan get out of jail free card, and rarely used in good faith.

      The Democrats will cry whataboutism at any time one of their own (Biden), is getting raked over the coals. This usually comes in the form of variations of a, “But what about Trump..”

      Since both parties are such shameless, corrupt, hypocrites, most whataboutism accusations are nearly certain to actually be whataboutisms.

      It can not be otherwise since they are both guilty of the same crimes.

  • #177907

    Deadpool
    Administrator
    • Total Posts: 2,322
    @deadpool

    On the Daily Radical.

    • #178013

      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 7,202
      @ohiobarbarian

      @deadpool Now you’ve gone and done it! If SVers see this their heads will explode.

      We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

      With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

  • #177910

    yourout
    Member
    • Total Posts: 205
    @yourout

    Dems are stealth corruption.

    Republicans are Loud and Proud in your face corruption.

    Both are beholding to the 1%.

    • #178015

      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 7,202
      @ohiobarbarian

      @yourout Very succinctly put. I may steal that.

      We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

      With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

    • #179919

      Enthusiast
      Donor
      • Total Posts: 2,797
      @enthusiast

      Huge plus one!

      I would like to remind you that U.S. health insurance companies do not contribute anything to health care. They are only a PARASITIC middle man receiving an undeserved cut of "FREE MONEY".

      Me

  • #178107

    Earthartist
    Donor
    • Total Posts: 296
    @earthartist

    Wow JPR this was so good it is time for a JPR donation

    Earthartist

    • #178111

      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 7,202
      @ohiobarbarian

      @earthartist We thank you for your support.

      We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

      With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

  • #189914

    Enthusiast
    Donor
    • Total Posts: 2,797
    @enthusiast

    Kicked and recommended to the fucking max! What a great post!

    I would like to remind you that U.S. health insurance companies do not contribute anything to health care. They are only a PARASITIC middle man receiving an undeserved cut of "FREE MONEY".

    Me

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