Home Main Forums General Discussion Men Don’t Get to Decide What Counts As ‘Sex’

  • Yardener (424 posts)
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    Men Don’t Get to Decide What Counts As ‘Sex’

    (OP) Debate is not arguing back and forth. Debate is defining your terms precisely and proceeding argumentation from that point. This specific parsing has needed to happen for quite a while.

    https://www.thecut.com/2017/11/liz-meriwether-roy-moore-louis-c-k-sex-and-abuse.html

    Sex is not being in a room with a man masturbating in front of you, unless you are very excited to be there. If that’s your thing, please go forth and have fun. “Honey, how about we go out to dinner, watch a movie, and then I put on a winter coat and stand in front of you while you masturbate?” Fantastic. I’m glad you found each other. In that situation, there’s been some kind of conversation beforehand. This is what you both want. There’s trust between you and also probably some kind of reciprocity — if you’re turned on by someone masturbating in front of you, chances are that you will probably end up masturbating too or at least falling asleep together while watching The Crown.

    My problem with Louis C.K.’s apology was that it seemed to be built on the foundation that what happened with these women could be defined as sex. In my reading of his statement, he seemed to be apologizing for the problematic dynamics of having encounters with women less powerful than he was. I’m arguing that what happened wasn’t actually sex at all; it was one person finding pleasure in another person’s humiliation and fear. What happened was an attack.

    snip

    … A 32-year-old assistant district attorney didn’t “date” a 14-year-old he picked up outside her own custody hearing, as Sean Hannity phrased it in an interview with Roy Moore last week. That’s not what dating is. Taking your clothes off in front of that 14-year-old girl and forcing her to touch you is not sex. But why do we continue to have to explain this? Why do men who have never experienced this form of attack get to define what an attack is? Watching the men on television argue back and forth about what Roy Moore did or didn’t do is like watching color-blind people trying to explain what the color red looks like. You don’t know what it looks like. You’ve never seen it, and I have, so what gives you the right to tell me what it is? As my grandmother used to say to my mom, “Get up and go out there, but know that it’s a man’s world.” Sex is a purple cloud. Red is red. As angry as it makes me and as exhausting as it is, we have to keep fighting to make the blind men see.

    Pastiche, kath, BuySellTrade and 7 otherstwenty, bemildred, tokenlib, Punxsutawney, jwirr, davidgmills, iggy like this

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24 replies
    • closeupready (1762 posts)
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      1. Yes, they do. What a stupid remark.

      Women also get to decide what counts as ‘sex’.  Everybody gets to decide what ‘sex’ is.

      The opinions and views expressed herein are solely those of the author.
      • Coldmountaintrail (3005 posts)
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        3. if i understand you correctly, everyone will have their personal definition?

        so what happens when the definitions don’t match?

        seems to me that misunderstanding and worse is inevitable.

        • closeupready (1762 posts)
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          6. If two people don't agree to engage in relations, that's the end of it.

          If either person (male or female) violates that agreement, then therein lies the problem, whether that’s harassment, rape, or whatever it is.

          But yeah, men get to decide what sex is.  If his partner doesn’t agree, then they both need to move on.

          The opinions and views expressed herein are solely those of the author.
          • Coldmountaintrail (3005 posts)
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            8. fine in theory, not so fine re power dynamics

            particularly under conditions of economic inequality

            • jwirr (3849 posts)
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              9. And in the case of child molestation.

              • closeupready (1762 posts)
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                11. Then why is the author equivocating sex with rape and child molestation?

                The opinions and views expressed herein are solely those of the author.
                • jwirr (3849 posts)
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                  12. That is my point. To the rapist it is one thing to the victim it is an entirely

                  different issue.

                  • closeupready (1762 posts)
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                    14. Oh yes absolutely. Looking at Liz Meriwether's wiki page, I see

                    she’s part of a group known as the “Fempire”, has done “Vagina Monologue” performances, born 1981.

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Meriwether

                     

                    The opinions and views expressed herein are solely those of the author.
            • closeupready (1762 posts)
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              10. That's not what headline stated – 'men don't get to decide what counts as sex.'

              I was responding to that and only that.

              The opinions and views expressed herein are solely those of the author.
          • roguevalley (2104 posts)
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            19. some twat whipping out his dick after 'asking permission' doesn't get to

            walk away. Given that they brought this on themselves its rather amusing to watch them squirm. I don’t know ANY woman that would find it interesting watching some guy beating off in front of her. Seriously.

            Be love. Be light. Fear is the only darkness. Love is the only light.
      • Eleanors38 (544 posts)
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        5. A couple of times my idea of sex was humorously refuted.

        • closeupready (1762 posts)
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          7. You mean, on JPR? Or what exactly?

          The opinions and views expressed herein are solely those of the author.
          • Eleanors38 (544 posts)
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            22. In the interests of irony, double meaning and hat-n-cane humor overall

            I will explain no further.

    • Coldmountaintrail (3005 posts)
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      2. this is kind of convoluted, imo.

    • closeupready (1762 posts)
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      4. Feminism is no longer about discussing boundaries; it's now about dogma,

      thought control, dictating.

      The opinions and views expressed herein are solely those of the author.
    • 99Forever (3505 posts)
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      13. I don't submit myself to dogmatic drivel.

      The headline was enough. What utter nonsense.

    • Smarmie Doofus (558 posts)
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      15. How do we know the following is true?

      >>>it was one person finding pleasure in another person’s humiliation and fear.>>>>>

      How do we know that was CK’s turn-on. i.e. shocking the women.

      Maybe he’s a masochist or narcissist or exhibitionist. None of these things imply aggression toward women as the aim.

      Only CK can say WHY he  likes that and …. far as I know… he’s not talking.

    • Ohio Barbarian (5159 posts)
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      16. Please don't feed the Rush Limbaugh animal.

      It’s stuff like this that gives his term “feminazi” life.

      Ignorance is the foundation of tyranny.   
    • jeff47 (1082 posts)
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      17. You're wrong on debate

      You can debate the meaning of words when they cover complex subjects.

      If each person has their own definition of sex, as she says in this sentence:

      Sex is not being in a room with a man masturbating in front of you, unless you are very excited to be there.

      Then there can be a great deal of debate about the meaning of the word sex.  Especially when you start adding adjectives.  Under her definition, “unwanted sex” and “unwanted sex act” are oxymorons.

      Then there’s the participation angle – if you stumble into the room when a couple is having sex, it’s no longer sex, right?  You’re not a willing participant, you’re probably embarrassed, and don’t want to be there.  That suddenly turns it into not-sex if we stick to her definition.

    • whatchamacallit (954 posts)
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      18. Ok fine, but would someone appropriate please decide and tell me?

      My balls are ready to burst.

       

       

      … Sorry. I know, not funny + ewww. 😏

      The ring is out of my nose.
      • Ohio Barbarian (5159 posts)
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        20. It's funny. The OP deserved that one.

        Ignorance is the foundation of tyranny.   
    • MistaP (6444 posts)
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      21. why does this article assume the issue of Moore and CK (and Weinstein) is one of

      the definition of terms, or of who has to explain what to who? it doesn’t even have to be the rattling old apparatus of “power”–the most effective way to out abusers seems to be watering the roots of an accusation until it becomes undeniable by the usual means and unexcusable by the usual tacit assumptions that keep these stories out of the eye of the public (or at least off the radar of someone willing and able to punish what is indeed seen as a serious infraction by most people)

      as we saw in the Piterberg and Hector Perla cases, it turns out the biggest blocker can be those well-versed Title IX reps who’ll tell you “don’t go to the cops” in the most up-to-date women’s-studies lingo

      also she confusingly leaves out the fact that these are crimes and subject to well-limited legal definitions and standards, and often involve things like “police” and “judges” and “trials”: it’s a whirlwind of arguing with herself or invisible contestants about who gets to define what words (at least I think that’s her point)

      (and she mysteriously leaves out the biggest person to controvert the legal definition of sex, and in one of the most power-drenched scenarios imaginable)

      http://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentionally-created-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/ (Third Way = Bell Curve)
    • kath (570 posts)
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      23. HOW MANY OF THOSE WHO HAVE COMMENTED SO FAR HAVE ACTUALLY **READ THE ARTICLE**?

      Some of the posts on this thread seem so off-base that, if they were made *after* reading the article instead of in just-off-the-top-of-my-head mode, they make me wish there was an ignore list here.

      Seems like there may be lotsa women-hating going on here at JPR.

      Jeebus.

    • so far from heaven (13089 posts)
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      24. Are we talking about sex,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,or ASSAULT here.

      If you want to parse what sex means, then this entire discussion is about assault, dong something TO another person that is abusive and unwanted.

      Grow up.

      Sex can only be defined by those practicing it, whatever IT is.

      Assault like this is true for everyone.

      "When you're in jail, a good friend will be trying to bail you out. A best friend will be in the cell next to you saying, 'Damn, that was fun.'" -Groucho Marx.