Military officials are discussing ‘disobeying unlawful’ orders over fears of what Trump might do: ex-Marine lawmaker

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    • #355549
      ravensong
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      • Total Posts: 2,222

      Asked by the host how past and present U.S. military members view the president, the moderate Massachusetts lawmaker was blunt.

      “What have you heard from troops? ” host Witt asked. “Those that are your constituent, veterans that have come home or those who you’re in contact?”

      “Well, I’m not going to speak for every veteran, but I can’t tell you how many have reached out to me and said that they have discussions now in the military about what it means to disobey unlawful orders, because they fully expect them from the commander in chief,” Mouton replied. “There are a lot of people, even inside the White House, who believe that he’s going to try to get the military to keep him in power after he loses this election to Joe Biden.”

      “There are troops who are just embarrassed by having this draft-dodging coward serving as their commander in chief and I’ve never heard that before,” he continued. “You know, I was in a war that I disagreed with. I did four tours in Iraq even though I disagreed. I voted against George W. Bush twice, but I never thought that George W. Bush would betray the troops, denigrate my service, would think that I was a sucker, in Trump’s words, for signing up.”

      https://www.rawstory.com/2020/09/military-officials-are-discussing-disobeying-unlawful-orders-over-fears-of-what-trump-might-do-ex-marine-lawmaker/

      “A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by a majority.” ~ Booker T. Washington

      The truth is, there’s no such thing as being “anti-Fascist.” Either you are a decent human being with a conscience, or you are a fascist.
      ~ Unknown

    • #355558
      NV Wino
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 5,656

       

       

       

      “As we act, let us not become the evil that we deplore.” Barbara Lee
      “Politicians and pro athletes: The only people who still get paid when they lose.” William Rivers Pitt

    • #355562
      salemcourt
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    • #355573
      HalfCentury Man
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 793

      The military oath taken at the time of induction into the military is as follows:

      “I,____________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God”

      Notice the oath states, “I will obey the orders of the President of the United States…”, but the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) Article 90 states that military personnel need to obey the “lawful orders of his/her superior. The duty and obligation to obey lawful orders creates no grey area for discussion. But does the military member have a duty to DISOBEY “unlawful orders” including orders of senior officers, Secretary of Defense and even the President of the United States? The UCMJ actually protects the soldier in this situation as he/she has a moral and legal obligation to the Constitution and not to obey unlawful orders and the people who issue them.

      These have to be strong examples of a direct violation of the Constitution and the UCMJ and not the military member’s own opinion.

      Military discipline and effectiveness are built on a foundation of obedience to orders. Recruits are taught to obey orders from their superiors immediately and without question, right from day one of boot camp.

       

      Military members failing to obey lawful orders issued by their superiors risk serious consequences. Article 90 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) outlines the crime of willful disobedience by a military member a superior commissioned officer. Article 91 covers willful disobedience of a superior Noncommissioned or Warrant Officer. Article 92 conveys what constitutes the crime of disobedience of any lawful order (the disobedience does not have to be “willful” under this article).

      These articles require the obedience of LAWFUL orders. Not only should an unlawful order not be obeyed, obeying such an order can result in criminal prosecution. Military courts have long held that military members are accountable for their actions even while following orders.

      https://www.thebalancecareers.com/military-orders-3332819

      They told is in Boot Camp that the military went to do it’s job when the politicians failed at theirs. I have never doubted that statement. There are approximately 13m veterans and active duty personnel who take this very seriously. Far more seriously than most lawmakers and pundits I’m sure. If there is a constitutional crisis that the military is forced to intervene in; they (we) will take it as a failure of the current political office holders. The first thing sworn to uphold, the thing the rest of the oath rests on is, the Constitution. All else is secondary.

       

      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.

      John F. Kennedy: 13 March 1962.

    • #355584
      Satan
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,428

      Somehow I don’t see that pitch going over too well.

      "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable". - John F. Kennedy

    • #355588
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 16,202

      @salemcourt I strongly disagree. If the Deep State, whatever that means, is so gods-damned powerful and hates Trump, then why is he still alive? Answer: Because it doesn’t exist. Oh, there are the professional intelligence bureaucrats and their shills on cable news, but the CIA and NSA are still bureaucracies, with all of the limitations thereof.

      If Trump wins the election, there will be no coup over that. There may well be a military coup later if the country is falling apart because of him, but that’s another story.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

    • #355590
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 16,202

      I’m sure there are contingency plans in place for just such an eventuality, and chances are Trump would be offered a deal–concede like he should and live the rest of his life in the lap of luxury, or quite possible be killed. He’d cave in a New York minute.

      The thing is, unless the Biden campaign wakes the fuck up, we’ll never know because Trump will simply win the election outright and then the matter won’t come up at all.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

    • #355622
      GloriaMundi
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 266

      @halfcenturyman

      The Nuremberg trials established the principle that members of the military are required to disobey unlawful orders.  Of course it is a principle that is rarely followed in practice.  But it may be put to the test this November.  Interesting times indeed.  Dangerous times.

      One nightmare scenario that Kyle Kulinski noted, was this:  Most votes will be mail-in this time, and those votes take longer to count.  It could happen that those who vote in person, and whose votes are counted first, will be a heavily pro-Trump vote.  So what if, on election night, it looks like a big win for Trump; but then as the huge numbers of mail-in votes are counted, it becomes a Biden win?  Trump has already indicated his belief that mail-in votes are fraudulent, and his supporters will take his word for it that it must be a fraudulent outcome.  So our support for the rule of law in that case could conceivably be up against an armed resistance.

      Hold onto your hats, kids.  Looks like we’re in for it, one way or the other.

    • #355632
      HalfCentury Man
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 793

      Can’t comment on what current curiculum is in Bootcamp, but everybody knew “just following orders” didn’t cut it.

      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.

      John F. Kennedy: 13 March 1962.

    • #355662
      HassleCat
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,017

      I stood in a room with about 50 other nervous young people and swore to a bunch of things. The only thing that impressed me was my duty to uphold and defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic. Most of the people I met in the military took that Constitution stuff seriously. Not sure why. It just seemed more significant than following some leader figure. We did have a little comic relief during our oath. When we got to the part about obeying the commander in chief, one guy lost it. “Its Nixon, you guys! Nixon! I can’t do it!” They led him away and we continued without him. I think most people in the military consider the Constitution far more important than the orange cult figure who says he will send them to kill their fellow citizens on our city streets. They will figure out various ways to disengage, to avoid violence, to be somewhere else. When I was in the military, we were very creative when it came to shirking things we preferred not to do.

    • #355664
      Cold Mountain Trail
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      • Total Posts: 9,383

      cheating is the wild card however.

      cheating on both sides could put things in limbo for a while & provoke crisis

    • #355704
      soryang
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 606

      …that one expects during the descent into totalitarian rule.

      The only footnote I’d add to the UCMJ discussion is that the legal presumption at law is that the order a subordinate has been given is lawful. Typically, once the proof is adduced that the order was given by a superior officer or non-com, the burden is on the defendant to prove it was unlawful. At courts-martial one is judged by those who also take orders. The old saying goes, “he who has the burden of proof, loses.”

      No one high up was held accountable for war crimes related to the Iraq War. Also, of interest was the Obama administration’s pathetic lack of action on that score, “we tortured some folks.” Indifference due to complicity by democratic party representatives in Congress.

    • #355714
      3fingerbrown
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      • Total Posts: 2,788

      It would have been nice if military officials disobeyed all those unlawful orders, that have led to millions of dead foreigners, from prior presidents. I guess war, torture, and killing is OK.

      All governments lie to their citizen's, but only Americans believe theirs.

    • #355742
      Enthusiast
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,513

      Holy crap!

      I would like to remind you that U.S. health insurance companies do not contribute anything to health care. They are only a PARASITIC middle man receiving an undeserved cut of "FREE MONEY".

      Me

    • #355778
      Nick Xylas
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 147

      It originally meant the permanent establishment that ensures some degree of continuity between different administrations. At worst, it meant the people who showed each new president the footage of the Kennedy assassination in that Bill Hicks routine. But under Trump, it has come to mean democracy in general, anything that stops him treating the US government as his personal fiefdom. At its most extreme, you get the Qanon conspiracy theory, which posits that Trump is an extra-dimensional entity sent by God to break up a pedophile ring run by Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama and *checks notes* Tom Hanks, who the Deep State is sworn to protect, for some reason.

      “The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them.” -Julius Nyerere

    • #355787
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 16,202

      @nickxylas The term Deep State has been twisted like Play-Doh into so many different definitions I had forgotten the original meaning–the professional bureaucracies. I think I’ll just keep referring to them as bureaucracies and career bureaucrats; it’s less confusing to me that way.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

    • #355810
      Nick Xylas
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 147

      But I understand that term has slightly different connotations in the US.

      “The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them.” -Julius Nyerere

    • #355812
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 16,202

      All part of the “Government is the problem, not the solution” meme that is now just assumed by both major parties. Neither one can think outside of that box. It’s part of the reason Americans now live in a failed state, though most of us still don’t want to admit it.

      @nickxylas It’s bad here, Hoss. At least British leaders know their populace is perfectly capable of putting their heads on pikes if they get sufficiently riled. There is no such check on American leaders. Yet, anyway. The only silver lining I see is that the majority of our military is profoundly unhappy with the current situation and leadership. They’ve already refused to suppress domestic protests. I’m convinced they won’t step in to protect the government, be it headed by either Trump or Biden, if and when shit really does blow up.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

    • #355827
      Nick Xylas
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 147

      I still prefer our parliamentary system to the American duopoly, but we still voted Boris Johnson into power (and by “we”, I don’t include myself, obviously). And there isn’t another election for nearly five years.

      “The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them.” -Julius Nyerere

    • #355836
      Fasttense
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,038

      They were discussing what lawful and unlawful orders were, when W became president and talk of torture surfaced. I retired about then. They knew somewhere along the way some of them would be asked to participate in carrying out torture. And it seems almost all of them went along with the torture. Even Obama approved of it.

    • #358783
      Bluesuedeshoes
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 584

      The military will not only obey Trump, they do so with gung-ho fervor.

      Beast mode on!

      Greg Lapalina

    • #359452
      Yanath
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,360

      @ohiobarbarian

      It’s almost always described as a permanent power system that perpetuates empire and capitalism. This is as good a definition as any:

       

      The term “Deep State” has now become a part of the mainstream political lexicon, largely thanks to Trump, but the term itself describes a pathology of the system we have already discussed at length in this analysis. Put simply, the Deep State is the confluence of forces and institutions that compose the national security state in this country, much of it being an unelected bureaucracy of over a million people who are in charge of keeping the wheels of US empire rolling. I don’t see the Deep State as a singular nefarious cabal that rules from the shadows, but moreso a panopticon of tools and institutions that can be used on the whim of any administration for any purpose. 

      https://medium.com/@mikebyrne_16145/white-supremacy-and-us-imperialism-the-pathology-of-a-system-da430a031fc

       

    • #359553
      Fasttense
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,038

      It perfectly describes the actions of a king, W and Trump. No longer are we a nation of laws.

      Seems the right wing is really good at destroying democracy and creating monsters for political leaders. Once Trump is crowned king, do you think he won’t hunt down people who despise him.

      I’m going to be the first in line when the passport offices are open again. It is easier to apply for refugee status if you are already in that country.

    • #359910
      Bernice Ta
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 193

      When I took the oath, it said “lawful” orders. But that was in late 1976 (and again in early 1977), and we had long days learning the UCMJ and understanding our role in upholding the rule of law. I would venture the troops don’t get that anymore.

      But does the military member have a duty to DISOBEY “unlawful orders” including orders of senior officers, Secretary of Defense and even the President of the United States?

      We were told we did. In no uncertain terms.

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