Home Main Forums General Discussion Mueller’s ham sandwich truck is all about CIA payback for Ukraine & Syria

  • leveymg (3446 posts)
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    Mueller’s ham sandwich truck is all about CIA payback for Ukraine & Syria

    Mueller’s ham sandwich truck is all about CIA payback for Manafort’s perceived role in frustrating the Agency’s operations in the Ukraine.  We all know that the CIA and the Clinton faction at the State Department desperately need someone to blame  for their messy failures in Ukraine and Syria.  The outcomes of those regime change operations made all the career spooks look bad.  Someone has to be scapegoated for that.  Or pig roasted – Manafort’s the first into the smokepit.

    Not to mention the fact, worst of all, the Agency’s girl lost the election.  So, that’s why they’re now going after certain people in the incoming Administration.  Manafort is the obvious target for their wrath because he mucked up the Color Revolution in Kiev, leading to a bloody civil war and a divided country.  They went after Flynn because, as Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency from 2012-14, he “went against policy,” as Colin Powell said, and put the brakes on their regime change operation in Syria.

    They’ve both been targeted for years, and Carter Page — an FBI wire carrier with a renewable FISA warrant since 2014 —  was available to worm his way into the Trump campaign.  The Steele Dossier (if you read it) is all about Page prompting and poking Manafort and others to do something stupid.  The Russians knew exactly who Page was and led him around by the snout.  See my article yesterday, https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/the-high-price-the-clinton-campaign-paid-for-the-steel-peepee-dossier/

    The “investigation” of Manafort is all about the politics of the Ukraine regime change.  Wiretapping of him goes back to 2014.  According to CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/18/politics/paul-manafort-government-wiretapped-fisa-russians/index.html

    A secret order authorized by the court that handles the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) began after Manafort became the subject of an FBI investigation that began in 2014. It centered on work done by a group of Washington consulting firms for Ukraine’s former ruling party, the sources told CNN.
    The surveillance was discontinued at some point last year for lack of evidence, according to one of the sources.
    The FBI then restarted the surveillance after obtaining a new FISA warrant that extended at least into early this year.

    As for Michael Flynn, he has proceeded as if he wasn’t in the least bit concerned about being wiretapped, and that was puzzling, unless he’s such a damn Boy Scout that it didn’t occur to him that CIA Director Brennan, Susan Rice and some other outgoing NSC staffers might be willing to leak classified intercepts to take him out before he could commit an unthinkable sin: improve relations with Russia.  Gen. Flynn was a marked man since he was seen as flying against policy in Syria.

    Flynn made no friends when he was quoted as Seymour Hersh’s source in the London Review of Books, for a January 2016 article, “Military to Military” that reported how Flynn’s Defense Intelligence Agency and the Joint Chiefs of Staff were so alarmed by the prospect of ISIS taking over Damascus that they actually worked with the heads of the Russian military to save Assad, frustrating the CIA,  the neocons at State, the Turks and the Saudis as the opposition moved in for the kill in 2014.  https://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n01/seymour-m-hersh/military-to-military#onepass

    In the London Review of Books, Journalist Seymour Hersh wrote, “Flynn confirmed [to Hersh] that his agency had sent a constant stream of classified warnings … about the dire consequences of toppling Assad.” Flynn recounted that his agency was producing intelligence reports indicating that radical Islamists were the main force in the Syrian insurgency and “that Turkey was looking the other way when it came to the growth of the Islamic State inside Syria”. According to Flynn, these reports “got enormous pushback from the Obama administration,” who he felt “did not want to hear the truth”. According to former DIA official W. Patrick Lang: “Flynn incurred the wrath of the White House by insisting on telling the truth about Syria … they shoved him out. He wouldn’t shut up.”

    Look, if Putin considered Trump & Associates a valuable asset, the SVR would have done a better job protecting them.  The fact is, the Russians are tickled pink watching one group of scummy mobbed-up American shitheads being chased around and set up by another.  So much for the notion of collusion.  Mueller’s Indictments are just payback.

    Try not to smile so much while you’re chewing your ham sandwiches.

    Grey, Peace Patriot, eridani and 35 otherstravelerxxx, OCMI, Pam, mmonk, democraticdork, chknltl, Spanishprof27, BuySellTrade, rudycantfail, beemerphill, nenagh, Koko, ozoneman, Piperay, carrotguy, ThinkingANew, Ohio Barbarian, djean111, bemildred, elias39, 99thMonkey, 3FingerBrown, Mom Cat, HomerRamone, Mabus, daleanime, Doremus Jessup, Flying Squirrel, davidgmills, JEB, Land of Enchantment, Beebee, whatchamacallit, Salemcourt, BillZBubb like this

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44 replies
    • BillZBubb (2804 posts)
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      1. Definitely some great observations here.

      Flynn and Manafort are easy targets. They were taking money from foreign sources, so they are most likely vulnerable.

      Of course, what they were doing vis-à-vis Ukraine and Syria has NOTHING to do with Trump “colluding with Russia”.

      Mueller, no doubt, hopes he can squeeze them enough to give up something on Trump. Even if they don’t, he’ll claim convicting a few small fish justifies his investigation and proves he made a serious effort.

      DemExit! Don't give the Democrats a dime. Don't identify as a Democrat. Drop Democratic identification below 20%. Only then will they support true progressive policy. Until then, corporate money rules.
      • leveymg (3446 posts)
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        2. Manafort and Flynn's dealings with Russia predated Trump. This isn't about DT

        It’s about payback for their not getting with the program in 2014.   This only removes those around Trump who might have actually worked to improve relations with Russia.  Trump isn’t the mastermind.  Hardly.

    • Two way street (2569 posts)
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      3. So will the next revelation be a deep audit of the CF after it submits

      its charity paperwork in this last quarter?  Mueller was head of the FBI during 2010 Haiti earthquake relief.

      How about release of information that it was Seth Rich who sent emails to WikiLeaks instead of the Russians sending the emails to WikiLeaks?  Will Assange be freed next year as several truths seem to be coming forward now?

      I will be wanting to see that corruption has stopped.  Maybe the present day, non-unity New Democratic Party leadership, is going to fold.   Edit: Corporate authoritarian DiFi will try to stop it.  From JPR-Mom Cat:

      https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/breaking-after-rt-us-senate-now-demanding-twitter-reveal-wikileaks-direct-mess/

       

      Draft Bernie for a people's party becomes Draft Bernie for a people's single-payer party-Medicare for All.
      • Two way street (2569 posts)
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        6. DiFi seems to be working with the Deep State to keep us from finding out about

        the corruption coming from both Parties.

        Draft Bernie for a people's party becomes Draft Bernie for a people's single-payer party-Medicare for All.
    • tularetom (2149 posts)
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      4. So once the CIA/Clinton cabal gets their revenge on Flynn and Manafort

      Does the entire Mueller investigation collapse?

      That would be a yuge letdown to a substantial sector of America’s politically oriented cable news media.  CNN and particularly MSNBC have been almost orgasmic since last night, practically salivating at the possiblity that the current indictment(s) open the door to Trump being dragged out of the White House in handcuffs.

      I’m dubious that regardless of whether or not there is a there there, the Mueller probe is a big nothingburger.  TPTB are not going to allow a sitting president to be criminally charged with a felony.  Nor a former First Lady and Secretary of State, for that matter.  The illusion of public confidence in our government would not survive it.

      I went home with a waitress the way I always do  How was I to know she was with the russians, too?
      • leveymg (3446 posts)
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        7. That was clearly the initial target. But, if they open up Trump's books,

        Donnie is cooked, at least politically.  He’s no more than a one-term wonder, anyway.  If Trump goes down before ’21, we get to see the dessert course that follows the Ham Sandwiches – President Pence.

         

        • davidgmills (5669 posts)
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          8. I think Trump will turn out to be the teflon Don.

          And right now given the infighting of the Democrats, I would not be surprised if Trump wins again in 2020.  Trump is steadily getting his military men (those who have actually been in combat somewhere) to beat out their civilian handlers (those who have avoided service altogether but love war all over the planet and love to send every one else’s kids to fight it) of the past few administrations.  It  remains to be seen how many of the latter are around in 2020 or whether they have all been purged.

          French Revolution; not secession.
          • so far from heaven (13089 posts)
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            9. Trump will never be in the same class as

            Bill “What your definition of is, is” and “I feel your pain” Clinton and his slime wife Hillary.

            NO ONE can touch the Clintons for sleaze.

            Trump wouldn’t last fifteen seconds in a slime fest with either of those two.

            "When you're in jail, a good friend will be trying to bail you out. A best friend will be in the cell next to you saying, 'Damn, that was fun.'" -Groucho Marx.
            • davidgmills (5669 posts)
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              12. I agree with that.

              But I was not comparing him to the Clintons.  I was merely suggesting that all the legal shit being thrown at him is not sticking and I don’t expect it to stick.  And given the rift in the Democratic Party, I am not optimistic for 2020.  I do not think the Hillbots will support Sanders and it will be payback time if Sanders manages to get the nomination.  By 2020 I expect Trump to have the Republicans under control and I think he will be hard to beat.

              French Revolution; not secession.
              • Ohio Barbarian (5159 posts)
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                21. We shall see. I don't think Trump will have the Republicans under control. They

                will eventually cut their losses and dump that idiot, or he will deliver enough to their donors that they’ll stick with him. Trump is incapable of controlling anyone, even himself. He’s insane.

                Ignorance is the foundation of tyranny.   
                • davidgmills (5669 posts)
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                  25. I think you underestimate the man.

                  He has got his ways.  He met recently with the billionaires who own the NYT and the Washington Post.  He will start to get some good press and his opponents in both parties will start to be clobbered. Watch out.  And military people who have actually been in the military are beginning to control or replace the civilian military adventurists who never served in the military.  On the quiet.

                  French Revolution; not secession.
                  • Ohio Barbarian (5159 posts)
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                    27. I disagree. He's an idiot. It is you who overestimate him. He listens to whoever

                    talked to him last. He’s a child.

                    Doesn’t mean the military isn’t exploiting the opportunity to expand their influence in government, no, not at all.

                    Ignorance is the foundation of tyranny.   
                    • davidgmills (5669 posts)
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                      28. Whatever. One man's idiot is another man's genius.

                      French Revolution; not secession.
    • Land of Enchantment (8293 posts)
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      5. I agree, your observations make sense. There was so much sh*t that went

      down on his watch it’s virtually impossible to discern his proirities but he has truck loads of hickory and apple wood for that smoker. Thanks for a great OP.

           "Hope is the feathered thing that perches in your heart." ~ Emily Dickinson  
    • bobthedrummer (3005 posts)
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      10. What about the money-laundries, and the intelligence agencies of the world

      that control them? 

      All power to the People.
      • leveymg (3446 posts)
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        14. The concensus seems to be that those never get touched.

        Given the opportunity a decade ago, for instance, Mueller never actually went after the al-Yamamah slush funds that financed the foreign political influence and off-the-books operations of the GID Saudi external intelligence agency.  Instead, Prince Bandar quietly sold off his mansions in Potomac, MD and Aspen, and left the country. https://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6212624&mesg_id=6212648

        After the OSP-AIPAC bust, neither AIPAC nor Mossad nor the neocons running the false intel factory and espionage ring that fed the Iraq WMD fraud were really rolled up.  An Air Force Colonel named Larry Franklin was the only one who spent a day in jail.  Instead, Naor Gilon, the Chief of Station, simply got on a jet and flew back home where he was appointed to Netanyahu’s Cabinet.  Wurmser, Feith,  along with Rosen and Weissman, simply took jobs at other well-endowed Washington organizations.  AIPAC still isn’t required to register as an agent of a foreign power.  https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2005/6/15/122071/-

        All this stuff, along with the inside frauds at the top of Wall Street , with few exceptions, under the watchful gaze of Robert Mueller’s FBI quietly got away.

        • bobthedrummer (3005 posts)
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          18. What about the Trump family and their associates that very clearly have been

          been doing ‘business” with groups like Bayrock, Prevezon, and people like Felix Sater, Ike Kaveladze, the Khrapunov family, the Agalarov family-just to name a few.

          What about all those casinos, for super-sized washing?  Unregulated real estate, construction and service deals worldwide?

          What about all the unexpected “you’re fired” dismissals, particularly-in the context of money-laundering, Preet Bharara?

          I got a feeling all this is going to be “touched” in the Trump manner “grabbing them by the p—y”-I also think the Intelligence Russians are rolling on the floor drowning in tears of laughter.

          Know what I mean?

          Trump’s Business of Corruption (Adam Davidson 8-21-17 The New Yorker)

          https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/08/21/trumps-business-of-corruption

          What Did Trump and Kushner Know About Russian Money Laundering and When Did They Know It?  (Bob Dreyfuss 8-3-17 The Nation)

          https://www.thenation.com/article/what-did-trump-and-kushner-know-about-russian-money-laundering-and-when-did-they-know-it

          All power to the People.
          • leveymg (3446 posts)
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            31. Note the Russian Mob wasn't publicly portrayed as a nat'l sec'y issue til now

            I believe the focus on Russian money-laundering is a clear case of selective total recall and is politically motivated.  Much of this information long predates the Trump Presidency, and aside from professionals working in the financial security industry, counter-terrorism and transnational crime, there was little attention paid to it, previously.

            It, too, will recede back into obscurity in the vast closet of spook-related lore, much as interest in al-Yamamah, OSP-AIPAC, BCCI, and Jack Abramson’s money and influence buying operations did.

            • duckpin (5360 posts)
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              32. +++

              "The justness of individual land right is  not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged "
    • Marym625 (26281 posts)
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      11. On The Daily Radical!

      That’s two in a row

      "Once the decision was made to go into Iraq as an invader and occupier,  it’s like our nation lost its conscience. And it has not yet gotten that conscience back." Madfloridian  
    • MistaP (6444 posts)
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      13. Mueller might also take the Comey road and pretend to be "evenhanded"

      by making his blows bipartisan (first one, then the other): this often happens in DC, but Comey was too hamhanded and so got attacked by both parties and their irritating fanboys

      going after Fusion GPS would be a good way to cut the baby in half

      and we still have nothing on what the Kremlin’s supposed to have done–not WikiLeaks, not hacking electoral machines or voter rolls, not comment trolls, not FB clickbait, not Tweets: but we sure have gotten some heavy-duty lockdowns on the news, social media, and search engines out of this stained hoax

      http://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentionally-created-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/ (Third Way = Bell Curve)
      • OCMI (1478 posts)
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        38. "…heavy-duty lockdowns on the news, social media, and search engines…"

        That’s one of the end-game goals for the players behind the frenzy, IMO

        If you dislike Trump, you should vote for him so we can change his party from within. Yes, Hillary supporters, this is how ridiculous you sound.
        • MistaP (6444 posts)
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          39. well yeah it's just like in the Cold War when they said the surest signs of

          Soviet influence were desegregation, environmentalism, and criticism of government policies

          http://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentionally-created-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/ (Third Way = Bell Curve)
          • OCMI (1478 posts)
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            40. Indeed – the crackdown is "for your own good"

            Everybody knows that there would be no internal dissent against the US government were it not for outside agitators!  /sarcasm

             

            If you dislike Trump, you should vote for him so we can change his party from within. Yes, Hillary supporters, this is how ridiculous you sound.
            • MistaP (6444 posts)
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              41. it's so easy to dismiss it as bought-and-paid for talk-radio argle-bargle

              that just reinforces the belief that we can’t be appealed to by the PR guys, that we don’t have any buttons to push unlike those other guys

              heck, half of global-warming denial is people so concerned about the effects that addressing it might have on the poorest of the poor–and you don’t want to do anything to hurt them, do you?!

              http://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentionally-created-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/ (Third Way = Bell Curve)
              • OCMI (1478 posts)
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                42. We all have those buttons, don't we? Years of indoctrination see to that

                It’s a struggle to avoid all of the traps that have been buried.  The most difficult manipulations and partial truths for me to suss out are the ones which soft-sell.

                I’ve yet to run across anyone who sincerely believes that addressing global warming should be avoided because of its impact on the poorest people on the planet.  It has been presented as a counter-argument, but by people who don’t really give a rip about the poor to begin with.

                If you dislike Trump, you should vote for him so we can change his party from within. Yes, Hillary supporters, this is how ridiculous you sound.
                • MistaP (6444 posts)
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                  43. but they don't need their hearers to believe they're sincere–just

                  get out enough doubt

                  and, heck, Eric Mann and his merry crew held up transit in LA for almost two decades saying it’d hurt poor POC, who needed buses buses buses (and, yes, they were raking in money from segregationist types on the Westside/Beverly Hills/Hancock Park–Eric even got himself a Bimmer out of the deal)

                  one of the biggest, most preventable emissions in world history occurred to the applause of Mike Davis and Tom Hayden

                  http://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentionally-created-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/ (Third Way = Bell Curve)
    • Mom Cat (14345 posts)
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      15. Thanks for your perspectives on Manifort and Flynn. They make sence to me,

      especially Flynn and Syria. I was wondering what caused him to be taken down so quickly. By supporting peace with Russia, he must have upset a very deep plan. What do you think the plan was? I am not sure, but if weakening Russia with all the hysteria was a goal, it seems to have backfired.

           NEVER FORGET      BERNIE WON!          
      • leveymg (3446 posts)
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        16. I think the plan in 2014 was to peel off Ukraine and Syria, denying Russia its

        only two warm water naval bases at Sebastapol on the Black Sea and Tartus on the Mediterranean.  Reagan and Bush boys had their glorious roll-backs with the breakup of the Soviet Union and in the two Iraq wars.   Hillary and Petraeus saw an opportunity to do a “no footprint” serial regime change in Syria as a follow-up to Libya, along with a bloodless no-cost Color Revolution taking all of Ukraine, including Sebastapol on the Crimean Penninsula.

        What really ended up happening was that Putin and his general staff finally drew a solid line.  No more roll-back or NATO enlargement.  For once, the Kremlin didn’t budge.  The JCS and DIA guys in the Pentagon understood the response completely, and weren’t willing to further empower the Saudis and Qataris/GCC, and their Jihadi paramilitary, to challenge Moscow in such a high-risk environment.  Particularly since the CIA plan would give the Jihadis their Caliphate in Damascus, and they had already proven many times how they could and would carry out mass-casualty attacks globally, against the west as well as in Russia.

        For some reason, the geniuses in Langley and Foggy Bottom and the DNC didn’t expect the Russians to stand their ground.  They became frustrated and very angry  at those Americans who weren’t going with the program.  They couldn’t fire Dempsey, so they went after Flynn.  They couldn’t get at Putin, so they put Manafort under electronic surveillance and set him up using Carter Page as an agent provocateur.    The geniuses simply could conceive that Hillary would lose to Trump, so their response has been belated and frankly, somewhat amateurish compared to what the full Agency program would have been under President Hillary Clinton.

        • Mom Cat (14345 posts)
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          17. Thanks for your analysis. It had not occurred to me that the fear of an actual

          Caliphate in Damascus would have been a part of the turning point. Had they previously thought that they could  “manage” ISIS listed they had managed al Queda? This war has seemed quite pivotal to me in the transition from empire to a multipolar world.

           

               NEVER FORGET      BERNIE WON!          
        • Ohio Barbarian (5159 posts)
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          22. A succinct and concise analysis. I concur, for whatever that's worth.

          Ignorance is the foundation of tyranny.   
        • bemildred (5083 posts)
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          29. About right.

          It all comes back to Syria one way or another. But you can go back to Georgia too, or the 2nd Lebanon War, or Bush’s Iraq War. It depends on your point of view to some extent, what you take as central, like a Russia-centric view of it looks different than a Middle East centric view, and there are a couple other views too.

          I like your view of the Russiagate mess too. I would just ask: “When have the Clinton’s NOT fucked things up?” Not ever that I can remember.

          Many of the same people involved in both debacles too.

          It ain't the things you don't know that hurts you, it's the things you know that ain't so.
    • INTJ (2545 posts)
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      19. Aren't both Ukraine and Syria also about natural gas pipelines?

      The need to gain control of Russian gas flow through Ukraine, and the desire to provide the Saudis with a pipeline route to Europe for their natural gas??

      I'm not going to argue  ...  just post 2 faux-facs and I'll see them in the morning.
      • glinda (2168 posts)
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        20. That has been my impression.

        Animals know more than we do. - Native American proverb
        • INTJ (2545 posts)
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          24. Mine too. n/t

          I'm not going to argue  ...  just post 2 faux-facs and I'll see them in the morning.
      • Ohio Barbarian (5159 posts)
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        23. There are indeed either existing or proposed natural gas pipelines through both

        Ukraine and Syria, which explains one reason for American intervention in both countries. The failure of the American intelligence, or should I say manipulative foreign affairs, community to accomplish all of the Empire’s goals in both countries is why some of them are looking for scapegoats, which is what the OP seems to be all about.

        Ignorance is the foundation of tyranny.   
      • FugitiveBirdie (1748 posts)
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        26. Controlling oil markets is an integral part…

        … of everything they plan.

        Our overlords are all about retaining the massive profits they acquire from keeping control of oil and gas and those who sell it.

      • leveymg (3446 posts)
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        30. I agree, that's another factor in play, as is an obvious third,

        Israel in Syria, as well as the Sunni Gulf state religious enmity toward Iran and its Shi’ite allies in Syria and Lebanon.  I was addressing the geopolitical military side as viewed through the lens of the New Cold War rather than the various commercial and regional interests at stake, which in the long run are probably the more important in keeping the U.S. involved in the area.

        There is no clear national interest or public support for in our involvement in either the Ukraine or Syria.  That is why the goals and scope of these operations are largely draped in secrecy and obscured by lies, decisions conducted out of sight,  the issues rarely openly examined in Congress or in the mass media, except as propaganda.  Under these circumstances, the commercial interests you mention — such as large multinational oil, gas and pipeline corporations — are more likely to drive policy.

        Those who control U.S. foreign policy must therefore operate largely in secret, but “covert’ regime change operations of the scale and complexity of the civil wars in the Ukraine or Syria can’t be kept secret because of the number and cross-cutting purposes of the players involved.  They are also extremely dangerous and can lead to decades of repeated terrorist blowback as well as a requirement for costly permanent military involvement and recurrent wars in places where the U.S. has no clear national interest.

        The U.S. history of dealing with partners with cross-cutting purposes, as we’ve seen, often lead to catastrophic blowback.  That is clear to almost everyone, but for national security operators of the New Cold War like Gen. Petraeus, Hillary Clinton, and the older Bush wing of the CIA, mass casualty terrorist attacks are viewed as acceptable risks or collateral damage, and to black budget bureaucracies such as NSA, present an opportunity to fund ever-expanding operations.  Then, there is AIPAC and the neocons with an outsized influence and resources to push Likud’s agenda of preemptive wars and regime changes largely organized fought and paid for by the United States.

        Finally, there is the decades-old CIA alliance with Saudi intelligence and increasingly, the Qataris.  Together, they have armed, trained and financed Jihadi wars in Afghanistan, Bosnia, Kosovo and Chechnya, and most recently, Syria.  Of course, this led directly to the ’93 WTC bombing, the East Africa Embassy blasts, 9/11 and a string of related al-Qaeda attacks  involving Anwar al-Awlaki, a U.S.-born Saudi double-agent whom the U.S. had in custody in 2002 but “released back into the wild” where he operated for a decade at the center of an NSA/CIA spiderweb attracting, among thousands of others, the Shoe Bomber, the Times Square Bomber, the Ft. Hood shooter, the Fed Ex toner bomber and the older Boston Bomber.   Whether he was our man, bin Laden’s, a Saudi intelligence operative, or his own will never be known.  He is the creature of all, and will be with us for a long time to come weaving networks and creating events, victims and martyrs to justify the clashing agendas of all the others.

        • Ohio Barbarian (5159 posts)
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          33. You'd think some nation or other would send a James Bond to assassinate someone

          al-Awlaki. Maybe a stronger UN would, but we don’t have a strong UN.

          Ignorance is the foundation of tyranny.   
          • leveymg (3446 posts)
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            34. The CIA kept AAA in place for a decade before droning him and his teenage son

            in separate Predator attacks.  The kid was 16, but he got his own Hellfire sitting in a restaurant.  Killed everyone else there.

            James Bond has been automated and made redundant for such jobs.

            • Ohio Barbarian (5159 posts)
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              35. Oh, that's right! Guess his usefulness had become a liability by then.

              Just because I don’t believe all of the conspiracy theories about the CIA doesn’t mean I have any illusions about their ruthlessness. I remember the Phoenix program and what happened in Central America. Scratch that, I know what is happening in Central America to this day, courtesy of the CIA.

              Ignorance is the foundation of tyranny.   
              • leveymg (3446 posts)
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                36. Funny, those are almost exactly my words at the time.

                leveymg (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore
                Fri Sep-30-11 06:49 AM
                Response to Original message
                4. Way past his shelf life in the GWOT. Into the cutout bin.

                The President was not pleased the underwear bomber got as far as the airspace over Detroit on Christmas Day. Even less so that the role of others in getting him onto that airplane, leading back to Awlaki (who was also involved in aiding the Flt. 77 hijackers, the Ft Hood shooter, and the Times Square bomber) was publicly revealed.

                Lost his operational usefulness.

      • happyslug (306 posts)
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        44. Actually it is to stop the Iranian pipeline.

        The issue is which pipeline feeds Persian Gulf Natural Gas to Europe?  The Saudi one, From Qatar through Saudi Arabia through Syria, through Turkey then to the Bulgaria, Romania, Poland to Germany or..

        The Iranian route, via Iran, then Iraq, then Syria, then under the Mederterrain sea to Cyprus, to Rhodes, to Greece, to Serbia, to Hungary then the Czeck Republic to Germany.

        While Hungary and Greece are members of NATO, both have good relations with Russia and Iran.  Serbia has good relations with Russia and Iran. Thus those countries support the Iranian pipeline.

        The Iranian route can not go through Saudi Arabia or its close allies, Turkey and Israel  (Israel is technically not an official ally is Saudi Arabia, it is a de facto alliance against Iran).  Thus Iran must go through Syria to get to the Mederterrain.

        Saudi Arabia can go through Syria to Turkey, but also from Saudi Arabia to Egypt to Libya, to Tunisia then to Sicily to Italy (given the mess in Libya, the alternative to go under the Mederterrain to Turkey is an option).

        Just pointing out Saudi Arabia has options for its Natural Gas Pipeline, Iran dies not.  The only open route is via Syria.

        The Natural Gas for both pipelines is from a huge field between Qatar and Iran. In many ways Qatar seems to support both pipelines, and thus has cause tensions between Saudi Arabia and Qatar for Saudi Arabia does not want anything good for Iran to occur.

        Thus a lot of the fighting in Syria is over whose pipeline gets built through Syria.

        Turkey is the real question here.  Turkey gets its oil and Natural Gas from Russia and Iran.  Thus Turkey does not want them mad at Turkey.  On the other hand, Turkey is afraid that to secure the pipeline, Iran will give money and weapons to the Kurds.

        Iran can bypass the Kurds, by building the pipeline along the Iraqi border with Saudi Arabia, by passing the Kurds, but opening the pipeline to attacks from radicals from Saudi Arabia.  Thus the Turks think Iran will cut a deal with the Kurds, a deal Turkey opposes, no matter what it is.

        Thus Turkey and Saudi Arabia is trying to build a area that they can block the Iranian pipeline, while saying they are fighting terrorists.  Turkey is sending troops in Kurdish dominated areas, and Saudi Arabia is supporting ISIS in southern Syria and Iraq.  Remember both have to look “clean” thus they are covering up they support for ISIS while saying they are fighting ISIS.

        Iraq is fighting for that pipeline, but they want as much of it as possible, thus Iraq’s recent move against the Kurds in Iraq.

        Remember, while Iran, Syria and Iraq want the Iranian pipeline, each also want to get the most from that pipeline, so some jockeying for position is occuring within that alliance.

        The same with Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Israel,  each of them want to block the Iranian pipeline, but for different reasons.  Israel does not want to appear to stop the pipeline, for Europe supports both pipelines and the US sees it as a way to remove the dependence of Europe on Russian Natural Gas.  Russia sees Iran as an ally, thus supports Iranian gas to Europe, but Russia and Saudi Arabia want the price of oil to go up and they have to work together to achieve that, so Russia has some diverage desires from Iran.

        What is going on in Syria is not simple.  You have two groups working together on most things, but each member of each group working with members of the other group on other things.  For example, Russia and Saudi Arabia working on oil prices by restricting production, while supporting different sides in Syria.  Another example, Turkey opposes Iranian expansion in Syria and Iraq, but does not want to risk the energy supplies from Iran or Russia.

        A huge factor is that Saudi Arabia is going through a generational change, and like other times when the Grand Children of the Founder of a Dynasty get in charge,the knives come out.  Brothers have a much harder time killing each other when compared to cousins.  That since the death of King Saud I in 1953, the sons of King Saud have ruled.  Today, while technically a son still rules as King, in reality a grandson, as Crown Prince, rules.   The knives are out and it is the reason for the fighting in Yemen and the support for ISIS in Syria and the dispute with Qatar.  These forigen actions have more to do with the inside political moves of the Cousins then any threat to Saudi Arabia.

        Hopefully we survive this like the last time this happened, when the people who knew Stalin (his de facto sons) finally died off a a person who never knew Stalin took over Russia.  The knives were out then big time, Yeltsin came out on top replacing Gorbachev, but it involved a lot of fighting inside Russia, which barely avoided a Civil War.  Worse, till Putin took over, Russia was in steep decline, including loss of control over the other members of the Warsaw Pact and several parts of the former Soviet Union.

        Given that Saudi Arabia is a product of conquest by King Saud I, Arabia can break up and with it lost of the number one source of oil, i.e. gasoline up to $20 a gallon over a few months period.  Great for fracking oil fields, but a disaster for the rest of us.

        Yes, we are in a mess and the people in charge appear not to care.  In the 1990s, we survived with such leadership for Russia had no real desire to destroy itself.  Such a generational change was occuring in 1914 and was one of the reason WWI happened, the old hands that had avoided wars for decades were dead, and you had younger people in charge who were all fighting for positions within their own countries. Do to that infighting they ended up in a war no one actually wanted, but do to the infighting in each country, it was easier to go to war, then to risk appearing weak if you made efforts to avoud war.  In many ways we are in that position today, most cold war leaders are gone and we are being lead by people who want to show how tough they are. Bad situation all away around.  I hope for a repeat of the collapse of the Soviet Union, but I fear another WWI is occurring.

         

    • bemildred (5083 posts)
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      37. Carter Page: I may have discussed Russia in emails with Papadopoulos

      Carter Page, a foreign policy adviser to Donald Trump’s 2016 presidential campaign, said he might have exchanged emails about Russia with a fellow adviser who pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI in special counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation into the president’s campaign and possible collusion with the Russian government.

      “It may have come up, yeah,” Page told MSNBC’s Chris Hayes when asked whether he may have exchanged emails with George Papadopoulos and whether the two discussed Russia.

      As he has in the past, Page repeatedly declined to provide direct answer to questions about his role on Trump’s campaign.

      Page and Papadopoulos both served as foreign policy advisers for the campaign. Trump also named both of them when he listed off those who were shaping his views on foreign policy during an interview with the Washington Post.

      https://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/30/page-papadopoulos-russia-probe-244349

      It ain't the things you don't know that hurts you, it's the things you know that ain't so.