My feelings vs. your feelings.

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    • #345425
      HassleCat
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      • Total Posts: 7,452

      Courts are upholding the rights of transgender high school students to use bathrooms corresponding to their gender identities. Hooray! Big civil rights victory! But I’m not so sure. When we allow a transgender girl to take a shower with the cisgender girls, we are traumatizing the cisgender girls to avoid traumatizing the transgender girl. The trend is to respect transgender rights and ignore cisgender rights. More accurately, we are pretending the non-transgender students are, or should not be, offended or upset or traumatized by the situation. I believe we are doing this to avoid dealing with a conflict between the civil rights of one person and another person. We are “resolving” the conflict by pretending there is no conflict. The non-trans students should just get over it and learn to be accepting. We can see how this would work if we applied the same principle to all conflicts. Oh, well.

      https://news.yahoo.com/schools-must-allow-trans-students-201314693.html

    • #345527
      Maedhros
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      • Total Posts: 730

      I think we should give our young people a bit more credit than that.

      IMO, the most significant barrier to transgender equality is not the tender feelings of our young people but the projection of older generations’ prejudices onto our youth.

      His body recovered from his torment and became hale,
      but the shadow of his pain was in his heart;
      and he lived to wield his sword with left hand
      more deadly than his right had been.

      • #345532
        JonLP
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 3,496

        A lot of people pick and choose what type of discrimination to be against. Transgender are often left out though they are often victims of hate crimes.

         

        On edit: This was meant as a reply to the OP.

        Let this radicalize you rather than lead you to despair - Mariame Kaba

        Like many public systems, GOP want to rip the battery out + say the whole car doesn’t work, so they can sell it for parts - AOC

    • #345534
      Bernie Boomer
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      • Total Posts: 551

      I guarantee you, there isn’t a teen trans-girl or boy alive that would happily subject themselves to the kind of exposure and ridicule they would receive in a group shower, since it is almost certain that they have not even started – much less completed – surgical reassignment (assuming that is their goal). Hell, most cis-teens would rather put out an eye than take a group shower. Puberty sucks and high school showers are the stuff of nightmares.

      Those comments have jack all to do with ‘feelings’ or ‘civil rights’ and everything to do with the writer’s transphobia.

    • #345535
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,869

      My position is simple: “transgender children” is a contradiction in terms. We don’t let children sign legal contracts for a reason–they are not considered mature enough to enter into legally binding agreements. If that is true, and I think it is, then an child isn’t mature enough to decide that they are the wrong gender.

      Second point, if anyone tells me that some teenage boys won’t say they’re transgender girls in order to maybe get a glimpse of tits-and-ass, then they know nothing about teenage boys. If you want to make the case that all bathrooms, etc, should be unisex, then you are advocating for a major cultural change. Maybe we should, maybe we shouldn’t, but I am opposed to making exceptions for so-called transgender children.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #345543
      JonLP
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      • Total Posts: 3,496

      She seems very aware of who she is and she is a lot more mature than people 4x her age.

      Honestly your argument isn’t much different than a RW on bathroom bills. Again transgender is being left out

      Let this radicalize you rather than lead you to despair - Mariame Kaba

      Like many public systems, GOP want to rip the battery out + say the whole car doesn’t work, so they can sell it for parts - AOC

    • #345556
      HassleCat
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      • Total Posts: 7,452

      Yes, we are sure the rights of transgender teenagers are being trampled by the fearful, backward high school girls who are so bigoted and narrow minded they object to a girl with a penis walking around naked among them. Those girls should just grow up! If they have not shed their prejudiced fears by age 17, we will make them be inclusive, by god! Squeemishness is so right wing. I was afraid we might have to consider the fragile psyche of the average 15 or 16 year old, but not a problem. They’re all conservative bigots, so their concern is not genuine. In fact, let’s put it in quotation marks: “concern.” Maybe try to visualize a little sneer when saying “concern.”

    • #345575
      HassleCat
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      • Total Posts: 7,452

      I don’t think there is any good way to settle this issue. I do think it’s fun to ridicule everyone who settles the question by name calling as “transphobic” anyone who suggests that non-trans (cisgender) girls have any legitimate objection to a trans girl sharing their bathroom, locker room, shower room, etc. I recognize that one way to settle a civil rights issue is to dehumanize one side or the other. For most of our history, we dehumanized transgender people, probably because there were relatively few of them and we could roll right over them and tell them they were  tiny, weird minority whose problems made us feel icky. Can’t do that anymore. Good. How do we help them gain acceptance? Fully? Part of the answer is inviting them to use whatever facilities they feel fits their gender identities. The only sticking point is that there are young women, girls, non-adults who are very freaked out by the idea of having a girl who is still physically a boy walking around in their private areas. We are telling them to deal with it, to jettison their bigotry and embrace the diversity. Only problem is, we are dehumanizing them, treating them as a means to an end. I do not think this is a good thing. It is not more acceptable because they are conservative, Christian, Muslim, etc. Some of them are, but most young girls are not thinking politically when they consider how this will affect them. OK, their parents probably are, but that’s not sufficient reason to marginalize or dehumanize their daughters. OK, I did kind of troll some of you on this, but I’m not laughing at you because you took the bait. This is a very emotional issue, and people have strong opinions based on their emotions. I’m asking people to set aside their emotions and consider that non-trans girls have rights that deserve to be protected, and we’re not dealing with this issue very well.

    • #345578
      Cold Mountain Trail
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      • Total Posts: 12,932

      I’d guess if this is happening its to set up another conflict that will lead to killing public schools.

      all things public must die is the real conflict

      we’re only pawns in their game

    • #345588
      closeupready
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      • Total Posts: 2,658

      This is so literally not an important story.

      The opinions and personal views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and should never be taken seriously.

    • #345596
      HassleCat
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      • Total Posts: 7,452

      It’s more than the usual “culture wars” conflict between the left and right. There are two opposing groups of people, each with a legitimate claim to civil rights. Neither group wants to be objectified, delegitimized, marginalized, disenfranchised, or otherwise pushed aside. Yes, this is a less important issue than M4A or voter disenfranchisement. Maybe. Depends on who you are, I guess. My own ox is not being gored either way, but it’s an indication of our inability to deal with any issue without demonizing the “others” and getting all self-righteous. The way we approach this issue hints at the way we approach other issues, with little or no respect for our fellow citizens who fall on the other side of the question.

    • #345618
      a little weird
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 708

      Really I hope it isn’t a thing in male locker rooms either – everyone should at least have a curtain for privacy although even with that locker rooms are horrible for most high schoolers.  I still hate locker rooms and I’m old enough that I should be over it.  I think most cis girls are much more likely to be traumatized by “mean girls” and by the subset of cis males that act like sexist assholes than by a transgender person.

      Regardless, I really don’t think this is a major issue facing society.  I’m more worried about corporate control of our government and media, climate change, lack of healthcare and basic social safety net, guns in the hands of every yahoo that wants one, coronavirus, hostile space aliens…. I could go on.  Basically there are a lot of issues that I consider to be more worthy of my attention.

    • #345622
      Fasttense
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      • Total Posts: 1,603

      Those open showers in high school were the stuff of a teenage girl’s nightmare. Remember the shower scene from Carrie? Girls taught from an early age to hate their bodies don’t need to run around naked in front of bullies, gang members (Yes, female gangs are a thing.) and mean girls. I know I hated them and used any excuse to use the private showers.

      Now, most women’s locker rooms have many more private showers then they use to. So, there really is no need for anyone to parade naked in front of anyone. Not sure what is happening in boy’s locker rooms but teenage boys should be allowed private showers too.

      That is not a sea change for Americans. That is just how bathroom facilities are now being designed.

      So there is no need for anyone to parade naked in front of anyone. And no need to exclude anyone from any bathroom facilities. And no need for anyone to prioritize their feelings over someone else’s.

    • #345645
      eridani
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      • Total Posts: 10,151

      –have major freakouts at the thought of open showers.    Not a problem.  Open showers didn’t exist in my Catholic high school from 1960 to 1964, and I doubt that they have been installed since.

      Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

    • #345739
      PolecatHollerer
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      • Total Posts: 1,364

      @coldmountaintrail

      Feels like a setup.

      If you give a man enough rope, it will be six inches too short. This is not the nature of rope- it is the nature of man.

    • #345942
      eridani
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 10,151

      https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/aug/10/trans-rights-feminist-letter-rebecca-solnit

      Every category is leaky and there are exceptions to every rule, but that’s where the lion’s share of violence against women comes from, as rape and domestic violence and harassment and murder. One of the really weird fears about trans women is that they’re men pretending to be women to do nefarious things to other women, but that’s either a fear of straight cis-gender men who do horrific things to women incessantly all over the world, in which case the problem is still straight men, or a deep misunderstanding of what trans women are. And yes, men who want to harm women could dress up as women, but they could also pretend to be repairmen or emergency workers to get into our homes, and actually have, and we haven’t banned repairmen and emergency workers yet.

      As a young woman dealing with endless street harassment and menace from straight men, I used to breathe a sigh of relief when I got to the Castro District, because that was the only place I was confident I would be safe. Reflecting back on these four decades, I figure I must have spent a ton of time around trans people in bars and clubs and street parties and protests (and yeah, public restrooms) without really noticing, which is maybe the point. OK, in 2015, at the last night at the Lexington Club, San Francisco’s last lesbian bar, I did gradually realize that the many nice young men in the crowd were trans men.

      Patriarchy would like gender to be fixed and a lot of its violence is punishment of women who aren’t submissive enough, men who aren’t straight enough, and anyone else who steps out of line. It’s no coincidence the American right is obsessed with border walls and with airtight gender definitions and racial discrimination to keep others in their places. Also, I can’t believe we even have to talk about the bathroom issue, which on this continent is a strictly rightwing rile-the-base issue. I have been using public restrooms in this exceptionally gender-diverse city for the past 40-something years, and also reading the local and national papers, plus I know a lot of schoolteachers and parents of schoolchildren, and in all that time I have never actually heard of, or read of, let alone seen, an incident in which a trans woman or girl somehow caused unpleasantness in a women’s room, and it does not appear to be something anyone worries about here. In the Year of Our Lady 2020 there’s still a fuss in the UK about the bathroom business.

      Patriarchy would like gender to be fixed and a lot of its violence is punishment of women who aren’t submissive enough, men who aren’t straight enough, and anyone else who steps out of line. It’s no coincidence the American right is obsessed with border walls and with airtight gender definitions and racial discrimination to keep others in their places. Also, I can’t believe we even have to talk about the bathroom issue, which on this continent is a strictly rightwing rile-the-base issue. I have been using public restrooms in this exceptionally gender-diverse city for the past 40-something years, and also reading the local and national papers, plus I know a lot of schoolteachers and parents of schoolchildren, and in all that time I have never actually heard of, or read of, let alone seen, an incident in which a trans woman or girl somehow caused unpleasantness in a women’s room, and it does not appear to be something anyone worries about here. In the Year of Our Lady 2020 there’s still a fuss in the UK about the bathroom business.

      Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

    • #345950
      JonLP
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      • Total Posts: 3,496

      +1

      Let this radicalize you rather than lead you to despair - Mariame Kaba

      Like many public systems, GOP want to rip the battery out + say the whole car doesn’t work, so they can sell it for parts - AOC

    • #346081
      xyzse
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      • Total Posts: 1,790

      I think I’m advocating for Unisex Bathrooms.  In many cases, it makes boys go in to their best behavior and reduces bullying from any gender.

      Also, that is the reason for stalls, be it for shower and whatever else.

      That way, they don’t even have to label it whatever.  They can just say “RESTROOM” and leave it at that.

    • #346127
      Bubba
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      • Total Posts: 34

      Ohio Barbarian,

      You and I haven’t always seen eye-to-eye. Here, at least, we’re on the same page.

    • #346137
      retired liberal
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      • Total Posts: 4,330

      @xyzse But the root problem is that the United States is a very prudish country. That gets in the way of any logical solutions. We have laws that put people in jail, that in other countries is considered normal behavior. Like in Germany, family nude picnics in public parks.

      We are an arrogant species, believing our fantasy based "facts" are better than the other person's fake facts.
      If you are wrong, it will be because you are not cynical enough.
      The older we get, the less "Life in Prison" is a deterrent.
      Always wear a proper mask when out and about. The life you save could be both yours and mine.

    • #346140
      xyzse
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      • Total Posts: 1,790

      @retiredliberal
      Agreed with you. The US is very Regressive and Puritanical in some of the worst ways.

    • #346150
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,869

      @retiredliberal @xyzse Lots of people online who, for whatever reason, never go out themselves and never congregate with other people positively rejoice in shutting down bars, theaters, restaurants, sporting events, parks–in short, all the places where other people go to have fun but they themselves never do.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #346151
      xyzse
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,790

      @ohiobarbarian Certain folks need to get a life.
      I’m more of a live-and-let-live kinda guy.

    • #346169
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,869

      @xyzse

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #346250
      PolecatHollerer
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,364

      @ohiobarbarian

      PURITANISM is defined as “The pervasive fear that someone, somewhere, is happy”.

      If you give a man enough rope, it will be six inches too short. This is not the nature of rope- it is the nature of man.

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