Now we know what it's like when they threw a war and nobody came.

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    • #249054
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 13,851

      It’s an old line. There was even a movie by the name in 1970. I think Hawkeye Pierce asked about it once on M*A*S*H. Now Donald Trump has gone and done it.

      He threw a war by assassinating a top military official of a country with whom America is not at war, something long considered an act of war, and dared that country to strike back so he could launch a war. Fortunately for us, his enemies didn’t oblige him.

      The Iranians certainly don’t want a full-scale war with the American Empire. They also weren’t about to do anything that would alienate either Russia or China, whose continued support they desperately need. Instead, the heirs to old Persia did the smart, safe thing. They staged an attack designed to harm no one while allowing them to save face and show resolve. Then they waited.

      Trump genuinely expected the vast majority of Americans to rally round the flag and the Greatest Commander in Chief Ever. He was deluding himself. It didn’t happen. According to polls, only 15% actually wanted an Iran War. Bernie Sanders claimed the mantle of Peace Candidate for himself and his campaign gathered more momentum. The chest-thumping and drum-beating on corporate media for war by the same people who cheered on the Iraq War had little impact other than convincing a minority that the Iranian general deserved assassination, but even most of them didn’t want another war.

      So Trump did something he hates to do. He stood at a podium and read from a teleprompter. He hates to stand; he’d rather sit, and he appeared breathless and looked like he’d taken a double dose of Adderol to make his way through it. The important thing was that he didn’t say the Iranian response was anything other than it was–which is fucking amazing–and backed down. The world breathed a sigh of relief.

      And now we know what it looks like when they throw a war and nobody comes. If there is a multiverse, we finally got the better alternate reality for a change. I’ll take it.

       

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      If Democrats don’t stand for the people, why should people stand for them?--Jim Hightower

    • #249076
      The Red Menace
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,080

      We found that out in 2013, actually.

      After the attack at Douma in Damascus, Barack Obama decided he wanted to go to war. His administration and the servile media constantly used phrases like “crossed the red line” and “shot across the bow” in order to gin up American support for an assault on Syria. he sent Sec. Kerry all across Europe, talking about “Munich moments” in order to try to build an invasion coalition as Bush had done ten years prior.

      And nobody showed up for it. Americans were dead against it. The rest of the world refused to play ball. even our most lapdog allies like the UK were dead against it. The only people in the world who were for it was of course Israel – and not even Netanyahu was willing to commit anything other than well-wishes.

      So Obama planned to go in unilaterally… until Russian diplomacy completely removed his cassus belli; no chemical weapons, no invasion… at which point the Democrats decided Putin was the greatest threat to world peace on the planet. because he stopped Nobel Peace price winner Obama from going to war with Syria – and Syria’s ally, Russia.

      Americans are tired of war. Which is honestly a pretty amazing thing, given how much we usually love it. The rest of the world is unwilling to back us in our wars. The only people who benefit are Raytheon and the 24/7 news companies.

      The only reason we’re still locked into this shit is because a bunch of shitty old men and shitty old women are too self-obsessed to admit defeat and bring their grandkids home.

    • #249084
      sadoldgirl
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 784

      @ohiobarbarian:

      Now this is a true case for impeachment, if I ever heard

      of one; that is if the congress has stopped to believe in the UK’s

      Bethlehem doctrine . This idiotic doctrine (under Blair) claims

      that “imminent” and “attack” cannot be defined. However, congress

      is too dependent on its funders as well as the MIC/CIA. Yet I fear

      that the terribly poor anti-war protests will not have changed the

      DC crowd.

    • #249115
      soryang
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 520

      This isn’t over. The sanctions and the US position on the JCPOA make it almost certain the hybrid war will go and on. Iranian oil and gas production needs to be constricted to protect the fracking industry in the US, and their collapsing debt structure. This places that sector in league with the other traditional elements of war making, wall street, the MICC, the fundies, etc.

      • #249211
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 13,851

        @sadoldgirl I know. I know this thing will simmer and that people will continue to be killed. This is another reason this election is so damned important. A Sanders Administration would actively work to end all this forever war shit.

        Do you think the rest of the world does not know that? And hope for it? The Syrians, Kurds, Iraqis, Iranians, everyone knows that. This…simmering conflict will not destroy any of those peoples for a year if it isn’t allowed to get worse, which most of those people really don’t want to see. There’s no one more tired of this shit than all of the peoples of North Africa and all of southwest Asia all the way to Pakistan.

        Aren’t we Americans just as tired? Do we want better lives or do we not? Americans are now asking themselves those questions, and the answers have their own real power. The conclusion is We The People can significantly alter the world’s destiny simply by organizing, demanding, voting, and maintaining that process until things necessary for humanity’s survival get done.

        It’s a pain in the ass but somebody’s got to do it. May as well be us.

        It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

        If Democrats don’t stand for the people, why should people stand for them?--Jim Hightower

    • #249133
      doh1304
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,171

      Back in the 1970s when the draft was discontinued and America went to an all volunteer army there were many people who were afraid that without families opposed to war with children at risk of being drafted the government would be able to warmonger without having to fear public protest. The media would not get ratings reporting wars if the government didn’t want them to, the casualties would only be from families who approved, so the casualties could go unreported, the cost could be easier to hide in the general forest of government spending. It took a generation but that’s exactly what’s happened.

      • #249271
        The Red Menace
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,080

        There’s a word for those people: idiots.

        Know what conscription does for war? It tells the military that there is an eternal supply of young bodies to throw at fighting a war. Don’t have enough men for the war you want? Conscript more! Lost a few thousand in some asinine blunder? conscript more to replace all that wasted meat! Training? Equipment? Pffft, if they suck, they’ll die and we can scrape up some more from their neighborhood. Will the people like it? Who the fuck cares? Opposition to the draft has never once stopped a war in the US. Opposition to conscription hasn’t ever even slowed a war in the US. You think your government gives a fuck about you being upset about conscription and casualties? They don’t. Never have. Certainly didn’t in Vietnam, which is why that fucker went on for damn near a decade; our longest war until the current shit.

        A volunteer force makes the men and women in the military an investment, a valued asset, instead of just eternally-replenishing meat. It puts a limit on what the military can and cannot do (which is why recruiters are so aggressive and lie their fucking asses off to get new enlistees). It has to exercise more caution in its operations, because now it can’t afford to just waste hundreds of men to take a single fucking hill in the jungle. And I don’t mean “for fear of public protests,” I mean financially – the shit our government actually cares about.

        if you want a comparison? Go to the Vietnam war memorial. Count the names. There are – to date – 58,320 names carved on all that black granite. All those lives lost in a single war over nine years. By contrast? In NINETEEN YEARS, in two wars spanning two theaters, the US has lost 7,016 men and women. You could add in all our other bullshit “military actions” since 1973 – from Grenada to Kosovo – and you would likely not break 10,000 losses.

        Since draft was ended, no, it didn’t stop wars… but it’s been 47 years hence and all those wars have added up to less than one-fifth of the losses in Vietnam alone.

        • #249324
          sadoldgirl
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 784

          @twilightsporkle:

          Sorry, but I disagree. Nixon knew very well why

          he first went to a lottery and then to elimination

          of the draft. The dissent from families and friends

          against that war with the conscription became too

          strong. The Congress felt it as well, and thus at last

          used the purse to stop the madness. The best reason

          for the reintroduction of the draft is that the

          Pentagon is fighting it with all its power whenever

          a representative brings it up. And that has happened.

          With only 1% of the population being involved in the

          military they don’t have to fear any popular anti-war

          movement.

          • #249365
            The Red Menace
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 1,080

            You’re conflating two different things separated by a year’s time.

            The draft ended because of public outcry, yes. A year after the war ended. And the war ended because the Vietnamese won it.

            But here’s the thing, Sadoldgirl.

            The US had no shortage of wars before the cessation of the draft. Hell, George Washington was literally conscripting men at fucking gunpoint in the Revolution, and our government hadn’t really stopped since. And then after the end of the draft… we still have plenty of war, don’t we? The draft or lack thereof, then, clearly has no impact on whether or not the US goes to war. What it DID change is how those wars are waged amd how the men are used in the field.

            And I just want you, and all the other people here who might have tried to argue for a return to conscription, to have a think.

            It is literally a wish for other people’s children to be forced into war, then killed, so you can have a higher casualty count, because you think that will make the war end faster.

            It’s more than a little fucking psychotic.

    • #249188
      MizzGrizz
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,884

      And now they’re trying to change their story on why the assassination took place.

      They think we will believe a new set lies,scarier ones.

      • #249212
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 13,851

        @mizzgrizz Nobody’s going to believe that anymore than anyone thinks Epstein wasn’t murdered. The corporate media has lost its power to make it happen. The old propaganda techniques are failing, mainly because of new technologies.

        This era may suck, but it can be exciting.

        It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

        If Democrats don’t stand for the people, why should people stand for them?--Jim Hightower

    • #249260
      Passionate Progressive
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,142

      I agree with @soryang that it’s not over….although there may be a lull in the hot war.  The sanctions are going to kill far more civilians that would be affected in a hot war….Iran has China and Russia as allies…but insurgencies and non-state actors will continue the conflict.  This incident was not just an attack on a sovereign state it was an attack on international law and diplomacy.  The US may have allies remaining in NATO but the US has further eroded what credibility it had left with the non-NATO states which is the majority of the world’s population.  Diplomats will now have to look over their shoulders in heretofore safe meetings.  The world is far less safe.

      The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.....Martin Luther King '63

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