Home Main Forums 2018 Elections Okay, in context, Obama's action against the Russians begins to make sense

  • Yardener (377 posts)
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    Okay, in context, Obama's action against the Russians begins to make sense

    Evidently there are a few wildly skewed exit polls.

    liberal at heart, The Crone like this

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    • djean111 (3141 posts)
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      1. Oh, I thought the DNC found exit polls so irrelevant and not worthy of

      attention that they fucking cancelled them during the primaries.

      You think the only reason that people won't vote for a warmongering Third Way fracking-enabling cluster bomb throwing H-1B increasing lying pandering corporate and Wall Street shill who says she has no problem putting abortion rights on the table is because we are mad about Bernie?  Um, nope.
      • A little weird (296 posts)
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        2. +1

      • Yardener (377 posts)
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        6. That doesn't make the polls wrong or irrelevent. If it were Bernie who'd gotten

        screwed out of the White House due to tampered machines, I wonder how people would react?

        Wait… I think we already know the answer to that.

        • djean111 (3141 posts)
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          12. And it did not change one damned thing, did it.

          Trump won.  And I would not trust any exit polls this time around, either.  The corruption was, and is, insidious and reached, and reaches, everywhere.

          You think the only reason that people won't vote for a warmongering Third Way fracking-enabling cluster bomb throwing H-1B increasing lying pandering corporate and Wall Street shill who says she has no problem putting abortion rights on the table is because we are mad about Bernie?  Um, nope.
        • Fawke Em (3097 posts)
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          50. Couple of things I noticed…

          1. The Castro dude from North Carolina kept saying that these people need to change the party from the inside. What in the hell did he think those DELEGATES were? Obviously, since they’re DELEGATES they were voted on by their state’s parties -from the inside – and sent to the convention. His point made no sense.
          2. The green-vested floor cheerleader woman who kept saying we were “stronger together” as she tried to block anti-TPP and “liar” signs was a hypocrite. Obviously, the people holding those signs were not “together” with her or any other Hillary supporter.
             
          • artis life (111 posts)
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            51. Yup, yup yup! eom

        • The Crone (2788 posts)
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          54. Hillary's supporters are between a rock

          And a hard place, both of them places that she and her staff created.

          She can claim that there was election machinery fraud, but if she makes too big a deal of it, than maybe people in Calif., where election “results” are seriously suspect and have been for years, will all start to demand a more integral and verifiable process.

          And then the Big Shot Politicos in this state will all have to answer some very serious charges.

           

          Here is one problem – San Diego and election’s Ugly Truths:

           

          Another problem: In 2014 when we had the GM food labeling proposition on the ballot, the public was told the initiative did not pass. Yet one MILLION ballots were not counted at the time we were told the measure lost. I have heard those ballots were NEVER counted!!

           

          "Let us not seek the Republican answer nor the Democratic answer but the right answer." John F. Kennedy   America is the only country that has real   lemons in its furniture polish, and artificial lemon flavoring  in its lemonade!
    • Silver Witch (4224 posts)
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      3. Meaningless. Totally meaningless.

      People fib when they think they will be judged by the poller. That is just a fact.

      Hillary Clinton lost. Get over it.

      How does this have to do with the Russian sanctions. Just more war mongering by the DNC. Shame on them as they may start the next war.

      #Let'sTalkRevolution
      • Yardener (377 posts)
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        4. I pay no attention to pre election opinion polls. Exit polls, however, have been

        historically very tightly consistent with the vote.

        I don’t like Clinton. I don’t like Trump. And I really don’t like the idea that somebody, anybody (Russians, Republicans, 3rd Way Dems) can subvert the election process.

        We can’t go down this road of screw everything we don’t like. I was willing to suck it up and accept Trump because he was elected fairly.

        If that’s not the case. Then there’s a problem.

         

        • Silver Witch (4224 posts)
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          7. Exit polls this year are meaningless.

          Sorry they just are. The horrific shaming of any DEM not voting for Clinton drove most to lie. Fuck I liked to my best friend about who I voted for so I would not lose a 40 year  relationship.

          I have been banned, shamed, called names and even at places where I blogged for years and thought people knew me.

          I would have lied to the exit poller too after the experiences this year.  Just too not be harassed for my vote.

          And finally exit polls are inherently WRONG. VOTES are private for this very reason. What gives anyone the right to question me about who I  voted for??  The curtain is on the booth for a reason.

          If there was no fraud last election or the election before why do you think suddenly there was. Cause Clinton the heir lost??

          I call bullshit on fraud in this cycle when you have real evidence I will be happy to listen.

          #Let'sTalkRevolution
          • Yardener (377 posts)
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            9. Um…. where did I state there was no election fraud prior to this election?

            And since you think votes are private I shouldn’t have to respond to your subtle smear about supporting Clinton, but I will. I’m Jill Stein voter, because both parties are insanely corrupt.

            But if we have any hope of getting a 3rd party elected in the future, we’d better start caring NOW about election fraud, no matter who it supports.

            • Silver Witch (4224 posts)
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              11. Did not imply YOU were a Clinton supporter.

              Packman is and was.  Please don’t share with me who you voted for as I don’t think anyone has to justify their vote.  We vote for the best we think is running.

              Trump is our President. That is the roll of the dice. There is voter suppression and the lack of polling places I am fine with discussing. But exit polls are not evidence of fraud. Just like you cared what I thought about who you voted for, so much so you felt you had to tell me, so those exiting felt pressured to speak.

              #Let'sTalkRevolution
          • The Crone (2788 posts)
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            26. Thanks for carrying the discussion along.

            I One Hundred Percent agree with you.

            "Let us not seek the Republican answer nor the Democratic answer but the right answer." John F. Kennedy   America is the only country that has real   lemons in its furniture polish, and artificial lemon flavoring  in its lemonade!
            • Silver Witch (4224 posts)
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              29. Happy New Year my friend.

              May peace be with you!!!

              #Let'sTalkRevolution
          • FanBoy (7108 posts)
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            32. The previous poster is correct; exit polls have historically been highly

            accurate.

            If they weren’t this election, it’s either fraud or some unprecendented change.  what might that change be, in your opinion?

            saying they’re “wrong” because votes are private = counterfactual.

             

            • Silver Witch (4224 posts)
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              34. Saying they are wrong because people are afraid is factual

              Read my other posts above FanBoy. The truth is, as Clinton said, exit polls are meaningless.

              #Let'sTalkRevolution
              • FanBoy (7108 posts)
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                35. I repeat: exit polls have, historically, been highly accurate, not "meaningless"

                “people are afraid” = more true now than in the past?  like during the mccarthyite red scare, for example?

                I doubt it.

                • Silver Witch (4224 posts)
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                  36. I repeat exit pills are bullshit!!!

                  No fraud; no Russians invading the country; and the sky nis not falling.

                  You can’t prove what data was gathered during exit polls is true!  More DNX shannigans…….

                  #Let'sTalkRevolution
                  • Dragon Turtle (174 posts)
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                    37. Wonder if people

                    think Trump could never win legitimately against HRH due to him be considered the most hated. Yet they may fail to consider Hillary Clinton was a close second most hated and number 1 most distrusted.  It is quite possible that even most hated could win against second most hated due to the second most hated also happens to be the most distrusted.

                    Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth - Albert Einstein "The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim." Gustave Le Bon
                    • Silver Witch (4224 posts)
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                      38. Indeed. They all refuse to realize the wiki leaks..

                      …were well read and turned a lot of dems off. Some just didn’t vote. Others voted and then lied about who they voted for.

                      Run two shitty candidates you get shit results!

                      #Let'sTalkRevolution
                  • FanBoy (7108 posts)
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                    39. ok, you're right — they've been faking it since the 50s and it's just now they

                    stopped faking it so they could be revealed as bullshit.

                    why did they stop faking them just for this election?

                    it’s a mystery silver witch has no answer for.

                    just — they’re bullshit.

                    • Silver Witch (4224 posts)
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                      41. I just gave you an answer. You don't like it?

                      This year’s exit polls were wrong. Get over it!  She lost…period. Seriously after the scandal of wikileaks and the never ending abuse of Dems by Dems I was still surprised she lost, but loose she did.

                      As I said, there was such hostile shaming this year of any dem that didn’t vote Clinton I suspect many lied. This year was indeed different than previous years. Or maybe the pollers just assumed a dem would vote for HER and they didn’t.

                      Irregularities of a democrat ballot not picking Hillary BUT everything else voted as DEM is NOT an irregularity. It is exactly how my ballot looked.

                      This is my last response to your needling. Just as the Hillbots have done through out the election those shocked by her loss just can’t accept it was an election lost because of the democrats own BAD behavior.

                       

                      #Let'sTalkRevolution
                      • FanBoy (7108 posts)
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                        42. *My* "needling?" Jeepers. I don't know where you're getting all this BS.

                        I think I’ve been here longer than you, I caucused for sanders and voted for him as well, and there are many posts on this forum to that effect.

                        But I’ll leave you in peace.  I didn’t think asking for an explanation of why the polls were wrong this year as opposed to the last 50-plus years was so terrible given your strong opinions, but seems you found it beyond the pale.

                      • Silver Witch (4224 posts)
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                        43. Ohh I see now it is how long one has been here?

                        What exactly leads you to believe you have been here longer than I.  Your number of posts?  I don’t recall when I came, but it was before the primary.  So if you have been here long before that well then congratulations…that of course doesn’t mean shit does it.

                        My posts say why I think the polls this year were wrong.  I have restated it twice.  It is your blindness that keeps you from seeing how this election is VERY different than any in the last 50 years.

                        Lastly congratulations on caucusing for Bernie…so that makes you a super hero and means your opinions are more valuable then mine.  Well excellent and how very elitist of you.

                        You might want to see OCMI’s post below – it is exactly what I am saying.  People are tired of polls that lie and try to obfuscate the truth.

                        Thank you for leaving me in peace, I shall avoid you as well.

                        #Let'sTalkRevolution
                      • FanBoy (7108 posts)
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                        45. You're really fond of leaping to conclusions on very limited evidence

                        You make a lot of assumptions

                        You may as well talk to yourself because your assumptions have nothing to do with me or my discussion

                      • Silver Witch (4224 posts)
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                        46. Ahh so you are a liar as well and have no intention of leaving me in Peace.

                        #Let'sTalkRevolution
                      • FanBoy (7108 posts)
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                        47. yes a terrible liar i'm awful and should die

    • bemildred (2242 posts)
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      5. No, it doesn't.

      There is plenty of corruption in US elections, but it has Jack Shit to do with Russia.

      It ain't the things you don't know that hurts you, it's the things you know that ain't so.
      • Yardener (377 posts)
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        8. I'm not saying "Russian Tampering" isn't propaganda.

        But I didn’t get why he was using sanctions for election tampering when there was no proof. I assumed he was talking about the DNC email leak.

        This is something completely different. The polls are a strong indicator that something happened in 4 states.

        That said, it doesn’t mean the Russians did it. And our core ideas are the same: Our electoral system is corrupt. Who is corrupting is another idea entirely.

        • em77 (2507 posts)
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          10. Who's corrupting it? Soros, DNC.

          • Yardener (377 posts)
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            14. I'll say it more broadly. The 1%.

            Republicans are just as bought as 3rd way Dems.

            • The Crone (2788 posts)
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              28. That is very true. talk to any Ron Paul

              Supporter and they will tell a sad tale of how Paul won several primaries’ caucuses, except those in leadership roles altered the Primary results.

              At the time, I suggested that those who cared about having a progressive candidate any time in the Dem Party’s future start to understand what the R leadership did in 2012 to the average Republican voter, so we could avoid having our populous candidate destroyed.

              But my suggestions were turned into some type of “She’s promoting Ron Paul!! on our lovely, Dem oriented site.”

              JEESH!

              "Let us not seek the Republican answer nor the Democratic answer but the right answer." John F. Kennedy   America is the only country that has real   lemons in its furniture polish, and artificial lemon flavoring  in its lemonade!
            • FanBoy (7108 posts)
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              33. true. the whole political classs = corrupt with some individual exceptions.

              but it’s hard to know who the exceptions are.  I use wealth as one metric.  cause corruption has its price.  small potatoes = small corruption, as a general rule.

               

        • bemildred (2242 posts)
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          13. Well I'm just sitting out here in TV land like you,

          but I think “the Russians hacked our elections” is a ludicrous idea. I am sure they spy on us, watch us, surveil us, all the time, but to meddle would be stupid, there is no upside to it. It is Neocon thinking to think that that would be a good idea, stirring up trouble. Russia wants stability and security to rebuild in. It’s a capitalist society now, they want to make money, pursue their interests.

          I have no doubt that lots of people were working hard to rig the outcome of the election for their side, or buy it, it’s what we do. How effective that all was, I have doubts about, whether anybody actually managed to do something that determined the outcome, some “trick”. There would be lots of competing cheaters, and sorting out the conflicts could get messy too, dueling tricks working in opposite directions.

          I think “the Russians did it” is an ineffectual attempt to distract from the obvious corruption of our domestic politics, projection if you like.

          I do think Comey’s email dance was intended to help Trump or harm Clinton, take your pick.

           

          It ain't the things you don't know that hurts you, it's the things you know that ain't so.
          • Yardener (377 posts)
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            15. We're in agreement.

            I should have differentiated between what the video was saying and my confusion over why Obama implemented sanctions.

            I spent the whole day trying to figure out how he could claim Russian involvement on the DNC emails when there is a strong likelihood that leak came from inside the DNC. But, as the video points out, (In Context) this is about something else.

            • bemildred (2242 posts)
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              16. Well you know people go off half-cocked all the time on the web.

              We are in agreement. :-)

              The sanctions are interesting, hard to make sense of, I keep thinking up wild theories. And that’s because they are hard to make sense of.

              But that is because they are mainly intended for Public Relations purposes, to distract, to bait Russia, to shift blame. A win-win-win. So largely symbolic and intended to be symbolic. The shooting of the Russian ambassador was much more direct, for example.

              But Obama doing something stupid-looking like this gets my feelers up, he is being pressured or he is doing Kabuki theater.

              It ain't the things you don't know that hurts you, it's the things you know that ain't so.
        • TM99 (4694 posts)
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          22. Yes, there was election tampering in a few states.

          It was all done by the fucking DHS.  Look it up.

          When you hear people raising reasoned objections to Trump’s policies and appointments, odds are that you’re listening to the sort of thoughtful dissent that’s essential to any semblance of democracy, and it may be worth taking seriously. When you hear people criticizing Trump and his appointees for doing the same thing his rivals would have done, or his predecessors did, odds are that you’re getting the normal hypocrisy of partisan politics, and you can roll your eyes and stroll on. But when you hear people shrieking that Donald Trump is the illegitimate result of a one-night stand between Ming the Merciless and Cruella de Vil, that he cackles in Russian while barbecuing babies on a bonfire, that everyone who voted for him must be a card-carrying Nazi who hates the human race, or whatever other bit of over-the-top hate speech happens to be fashionable among the chattering classes at the moment—why, then, dear reader, you’re hearing a phenomenon as omnipresent and unmentionable in today’s America as sex was in Victorian England. You’re hearing the voice of class bigotry: the hate that dare not speak its name.  -- John Michael Greer
        • Silver Witch (4224 posts)
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          30. But YOU SAID he was justified in his sanctions.

          #Let'sTalkRevolution
    • sadoldgirl (1443 posts)
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      17. Nonsense. She lost and Trump won, and that will never be explained

      by HRH having been the worst candidate the party forced on

      the people. There is an old saying: Why did the devil kill his grandma?

      Answer: Because she ran out of excuses!

      That is the answer here!

      • Silver Witch (4224 posts)
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        31. Too true sad old girl.

        #Let'sTalkRevolution
    • Dragon Turtle (174 posts)
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      18. HRH

      being a close not distant 2nd most hated in the general and the most distrusted could not have possibly been actual factors for losing…

      Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth - Albert Einstein "The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim." Gustave Le Bon
    • snot (653 posts)
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      19. The best solution:

      verifiable paper trails and meaningful audits, for all elections.

      There is no responsibility, without freedom; no freedom, without power; no power, without knowledge; no knowledge, without love.
      • TRex (1822 posts)
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        20. That is it right there.

        So simple, they have to purposely keep it complex and fucked up.

        I never promised you a rose garden.
      • Dragon Turtle (174 posts)
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        21. Wonder if

        They will claim the reason they do electronic voting is really just all about being environmentally conscious and convenience for voters. 

        Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth - Albert Einstein "The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim." Gustave Le Bon
      • Rosa Luxemburg (1075 posts)
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        49. I didn't get a receipt when I voted

        I asked for one but they said the machine doesn’t produce verification.

        The more that social democracy develops, grows, and becomes stronger, the more the enlightened masses of workers will take their own destinies, the leadership of their movement, and the determination of its direction into their own hands. Rosa Luxemburg.    
    • FordPrefect (48 posts)
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      23. I tend to lie to pollsters.

      Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

    • OCMI (1168 posts)
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      24. Participation in exit polls is not mandatory

      Voters can and do walk away from pollsters.  I have yet to see an exit poll that includes the number of voters who refused to answer questions.  In an election where the media equated a vote for Trump as a vote for Hitler, it is probable that the majority of those who did not participate in the exit polling were Trump voters.

      The video in the OP focuses on swing states Hillary lost, obviously with the intent of trying to swing the election her way.

      As an aside, the US has one, if not the, worst records when it comes to voting results matching exit polls within the margin of error.  This is not the first election to have discrepancies that would cause a completely new election in a country the US insists be monitored for election fraud.  Richard Charnin has been providing data on this for years:  https://richardcharnin.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/massive-1988-2008-exit-poll-discrepancies-a-probability-analysis/

      Neither party has wanted to address the issue to date.  In the same year that Democrats derided those who said there was election fraud in the Democratic primaries which cost Bernie the nomination they are now bleating that the candidate who benefited from that fraud was later cheated?  My answer to them is that they need to get off their asses and ensure election integrity at all times, not play games after the fact to game the system because the anointed one lost.

      Edit to add:  If the Clintonites are serious about having an accurate vote count, they should request a UN monitored second election in all states, not just those HRC needs to flip in order to win.

      If you dislike Trump, you should vote for him so we can change his party from within. Yes, Hillary supporters, this is how ridiculous you sound.
      • Silver Witch (4224 posts)
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        44. Thank you OCMI…I agree 100 percent.

        You have written very well what is in my head!  Thank you.

        #Let'sTalkRevolution
    • Pastiche (469 posts)
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      25. David said Greg Palast said this election

      was stolen from Her.

      Has anyone heard Greg say that? And if so, do you haver a link.

    • Hawkowl (1239 posts)
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      40. Bullshit

      It makes sense in the same way that on 9/11 a group of Saudi Arabians hijacked a bunch of airliners so we invaded Iraq.

      A failure of logic on those following events, but a brilliant distraction by the Presidency to shift scrutiny away from their own negligence at best.

      Obama/Hillary/the MIC want war with Russia. Period. They will say and do anything to get it.

      Fuck Obama. The worst fucking president in the last 100 years. He destroyed the Democratic party along with several innocent countries around the world. President rat fucking evil bastard.

      "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” - Burke
    • squirrel (80 posts)
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      48. In this video, Pakman talks about exit polls in Wisconsin.

      Wisconsin did a hand count of every optical scan or other paper ballot, and tried to verify everything.  It looked to be well done.

      There was a change, but Trump was still the clear winner.

      Recounts didn’t get off the ground in any other state, either.

      You’d think that the Clinton campaign and the DNC would have been on it if they had any idea of funny business.

      From someone who lost a really good old friend by refusing to buy what the Clintons and others said about Tarmacgate back in late June and early July.

      Lost posting privileges at the other place where they’re seeing a red under every bed.

    • Dragon Turtle (174 posts)
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      52. More an attempt

      To falsely give legitimacy to claims of Russian hacking electronic voting machines in the US and yet still have not provided actual evidence… 

       

      Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth - Albert Einstein "The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim." Gustave Le Bon
    • tularetom (1602 posts)
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      53. Personally I believe the Russians hacked the Democrat primaries

      in order to ensure that a weak and corrupt republican candidate (Trump) would face an even weaker and more corrupt democrat candidate (Clinton)

      Why not?  There’s every bit as much evidence of it as there is for the bullshit claim that they hacked the general election.  And it would be a lot easier for them to do it.

      "I know you're workin' for the CIA, they wouldn't have you in the Maf-I-A" -War "Why Can't We Be Friends"