OMFG. These “Vote Blue No Matter Who” people, drive me up a freakin’ wall!

Homepage | Forums | Main Forums | General Discussion | OMFG. These “Vote Blue No Matter Who” people, drive me up a freakin’ wall!

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    • #346945
      incognito
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,574

      And Michael Moore is one of them and he has a HUGE platform to stop that bullshit mentality, and just continues to perpetuate it!

      His latest video, “The Radical Left-wing Anarchist Mob For Biden-Harris” (what a crock of shit title) is the perfect example of what NOT to say.

      First, he’s NOT going to go over Harris’s horrendous record because “all that information is already out there” – riiiight! We know and that’s why it’s his responsibility to repeat it over and over and over! Nope, he’s not going to do that. Instead, he fucking proceeds to LIE ABOUT HER.

      “She’s the most PROGRESSIVE VP CANDIDATE WE’VE EVER HAD ON A TICKET.”

      That’s it.

      I knew he was a VBNMW, but blatantly lying about that woman is deceitful. Full-on propaganda.

      He speaks that LIE in the first 5 minutes or so if you don’t want to listen to the whole thing. AAAAAND… Shaun King, of all people, said the same thing in something he wrote yesterday.

      This is another reason voting is futile. This country is too full of sheeple.

    • #346952
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,304

      What a contemptible lie.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #346953
      JonLP
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,496

      He fought Truman’s federal lynching law on “state’s rights” grounds. I will say LBJ was smart and changed his positions during the peak of liberalism but he was back to spying on leftists with Operation CHAOS.

      Let this radicalize you rather than lead you to despair - Mariame Kaba

      Like many public systems, GOP want to rip the battery out + say the whole car doesn’t work, so they can sell it for parts - AOC

    • #346954
      h-32
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 132

      I was very disappointed to read Moore’s pathetic bald-faced lies about Kamala Harris.

    • #346956
      djean111
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 6,277

      We will see ALL the usual vote for the blues from 2016.  Nothing has changed.  At all.

      America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)

      Everything I post is just my opinion, and, honestly, I would love to be wrong.

    • #346961
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,304

      @jonlp Or Walter Mondale, for that matter. Moore’s still full of shit.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

      • #347002
        Satan
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 4,959

        "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable". - John F. Kennedy

        • #347544
          retired liberal
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 4,109

          when he started losing his brain cells.

          We are an arrogant species, believing our fantasy based "facts" are better than the other person's fake facts.
          If you are wrong, it will be because you are not cynical enough.
          The older we get, the less "Life in Prison" is a deterrent.
          Always wear a proper mask when out and about. The life you save could be both yours and mine.

    • #347009
      Cold Mountain Trail
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    • #347011
      Fasttense
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,602

      Even though he warned that Trump would win. Knowing his track record, he was bound to support Biden and whoever. If only we could find a person for president who isn’t mentally deficient.

      Oh wait it is what America’s ignorant filthy rich like Gates and Bezos want. Birds of a feather pick people just like themselves to run for president no matter what the people want.

    • #347023
      bazukhov
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,985

      And decides who  will govern in a democracy.

      So, pick your horse and live with the results.

      Tell me, great captain, how do the angels sleep when the devil leaves his porch light on? Tom Waites

    • #347024
      Jim Lane
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 828

      @incognito

      Is Moore currently a “VBNMW” person?  I don’t know.  I doubt it.  (Newsflash: One can favor Bernie over Clinton or Biden for the nomination, and then favor Clinton or Biden over Trump in the general, on grounds other than “VBNMW”.)

      It’s worth noting, however, that in 2000 he supported Nader, and campaigned on his behalf. ( Link )

      People who reject the strategy of voting for the Democrat in the general election might usefully be asking themselves why so many Nader 2000 supporters (including Nader’s own running mate) changed their minds.

    • #347027
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,304

      @jimlane If so, then IMO they are fools, for the Supreme Court ultimately cost Gore the election by stopping the Florida recount, and most of the people who voted for Nader would not have voted had he not been on the ballot, according to subsequent polling.

      Yet here we are, 20 years later, still hearing about how Ralph Nader caused the Iraq War, but only from Democrats.

       

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #347028
      JonLP
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,496

      He is a blue no matter who person.


      @jimlane
      I voted for Hillary Clinton but don’t you think we are moving backwards from Clinton in any way? Even the media was critical of Clinton and probably would be if she was elected. Now the media showers praise on Biden & will refuse to report anything negative about him or bring up his record.

       

      I don’t really care about Nader’s supporters — Krysten Sinema is one of them and she is now one of the most conservative Democrats in federal government.

      Let this radicalize you rather than lead you to despair - Mariame Kaba

      Like many public systems, GOP want to rip the battery out + say the whole car doesn’t work, so they can sell it for parts - AOC

    • #347040
      FedUp
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 672

      Moore is all over the map. Hard core Bernie one day. Biden’s fine the next. Have to remember he’s got a big fat bank account and lives in the kind of digs we pass by and wonder how many were swindled in order for the homeowner to afford the place. He’s fine no matter who is currently polluting the WH.

    • #347265
      Jim Lane
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 828

      @ohiobarbarian

      You write, “most of the people who voted for Nader would not have voted had he not been on the ballot, according to subsequent polling.”

      It’s one of the standard bits of pro-Nader cant: Any criticism of Nader’s run assumes that, if he hadn’t run, all his voters would’ve voted for Gore, and since that assumption is false, so is the criticism of Nader.

      Classic straw man.

      If Nader had exercised his undoubted right under the Constitution to run in the Democratic primary instead of the general election, or if he had exercised his undoubted right under the Constitution to not run at all, then the people who in real life voted for him in 2000 would have gone several different ways.   We would have seen: Vote for whomever the Greens did nominate; vote for some other minor-party candidate; write in Nader or someone else; leave the presidential line blank while voting downticket; or don’t show up to vote at all.  These choices can be lumped together for purposes of assessing their effect on the Bush versus Gore contest.  They would have had no effect.

      In addition, however, some of the Nader voters would have voted for Bush and some would have voted for Gore.  There would have been more of the latter.  Therefore, the effect of a Nader decision not to run would have been a shift in Gore’s direction of the count that mattered in the context of deciding who would be inaugurated on January 20, 2001.  My recollection of the polling I saw then was that the shift to Gore would have been enough for him to carry Florida, and thus be inaugurated.  (He would’ve had a shot at carrying New Hampshire, which would have been enough to give him the White House even without Florida, but that depends on a more complicated analysis.)

      As for your disparagement of the Nader-then-Kerry voters, you are of course entitled to dismiss Winona LaDuke and two million other people as “fools” because they disagree with you.  It does, however, raise a question about practical politics.  If there were more than two million people whose political views were generally lefty enough that they voted for Nader, but who then changed their minds, where might the Green Party and the People’s Party and the Socialist Party find their voters in future elections?  I think you’ve correctly articulated the current attitude of such minor parties.  They think the people who disagree with them are fools.  Presumably, therefore, there’s no point in trying to appeal to such a hopeless bunch.

      And that’s a big reason that the Green Party has never again come close to the 2.74% share of the vote it received in 2000.

    • #347284
      Piperay
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 290

      for the lesser of two evils again, that’s still voting for EVIL! 😠

    • #347291
      mrdmk
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,465

      In Florida 2000:

      The total number of voters who voted for Nader 97,488

      The total number of Democratic voters who voted for George Bush 308,000

      Of course there was a lot chicanery in Florida during that election. The media did not like Gore. Gore ran a shitty campaign running to the right at a drop of a pin. Gore just needed to be himself and he would have been better off.

      Hillary Clinton who ran as a Senator in New York and won put in her two cents. Actually, if she really cared she would not have ran for that seat.

      So the Democrats are blowing smoke when they blame Nader.

      Jim Hightower gives it straight in the link below:

      LINK–Salon, How Florida Democrats torpedoed Gore

      If you cannot dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit WC Fields

      Warning DO NOT CLICK HERE!
    • #347294
      Fugitive Birdie
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 317

      … he was asserting that any Democrat could beat Trump back in February.

      I just didn’t believe that was true.

      And with his continual warnings that Trump could still win, I am not sure he believes that either.

      He is assuming the Democrats even want to win against Trump.  Seems to me they only care about keeping the left out.

    • #347333
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,304

      @jimlane See @mrdmk ‘s reply to you. Nader-bashers never mention that. Give us a fucking break from that nonsense. Al Gore lost because people were sick of Clinton, for many good reasons, and Gore was yet another terrible Vichy Dem candidate.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #347371
      Hobbit709
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,496

      there will be no pressure on them to change.

      Until the party leadership actually stands for the people instead of their corporate $pon$or$, nothing will change.

      I don't waste my time teaching pigs to sing.

    • #347432
      Jim Lane
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 828

      @mrdmk

      My view is: In a nationwide election with more than 100 million votes cast, the outcome is usually influenced by more than one factor.

      On DU, there’s a large and vocal (very vocal) contingent that says the only reason Trump is President is the Jill Stein campaign. Well, it’s true that if every Stein voter had instead voted for Clinton, then Clinton would’ve become President. Nevertheless, there was a lot of other stuff going on.

      On JPR, one of the standard articles of faith is Bernie Would Have Won. Specifically, the DNC cheated Bernie out of the 2016 nomination, and if he’d been the nominee, the resident geniuses of JPR can discern with certainty that he would’ve won. If you mention something like media coverage, it’s considered relevant to the outcome if you mean that the media slighted Bernie, but pointing out that the media coverage favored Trump in the general is unacceptable, because it undercuts the partisan thesis.

      Back here in the real world, there is no single “the” factor that determines the result.

      Yes, if Gore had carried Tennessee, he would’ve won. And if Katherine Harris hadn’t illegally purged 50,000 voters (mostly nonwhite pro-Democratic voters) from the Florida rolls, Gore would’ve won. And if the Supreme Court had decided the case honestly, Gore would’ve won.

      See, if you try hard, you can admit the idea that there can be more than one factor. The sticking point comes if some Democratic Party “apologist” comes along and says: If Nader had chosen not to run, then Gore would’ve won. Then, all of a sudden, pointing to any one factor is totally illegitimate, because, hey, there are other factors.

      That some Florida Democrats voted for Bush doesn’t mean that we can just ignore Harris’s purge. Similarly, the SCOTUS travesty doesn’t mean that we can just ignore Nader’s candidacy.

      Under the Constitution, Nader had a right to run. Under the Constitution, Trump had a right to sign into law a tax bill that was a huge giveaway to the rich. And under the Constitution, I have a right to say that both of these decisions had bad outcomes.


      @ohiobarbarian
      Just curious, what do you think would’ve happened if Nader had chosen to exercise his undoubted right not to run?

    • #347493
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,304

      @jimlane For example, I’m a huge fan of alternate history novels. Anyway, Ralph Nader would not have run in the first place if Bill Clinton hadn’t been such a terrible President from his point of view, which is very similar to my own. If Clinton had actually delivered on most of his platform instead of breaking most of his promises, I don’t think Nader would have run against his Vice-President. I voted for Nader in both 1996 and 2000.

      Yay me. One of the earliest Dem-exiters.

      If the only change to history in 2000 was Nader not running, there would have still been a Green on the ballot, but they would have received far fewer votes. One of them would have been mine since I was in Colorado and they were on the ballot there.

      In Florida, I don’t think it would have made any difference. The voter rolls would still have been illegally purged. Jeb Bush would have still done everything in his power to deliver Florida for his brother. There might have been slightly different shenanigans, but I think the Republicans would still have found a way to steal that election, and Gore would still have surrendered to the Supreme Court without a fight in the Senate.

      There’s no way for me to prove that, of course, unless you have a crosstime travel machine lying around.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #347525
      Jim Lane
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 828

      @ohiobarbarian

      I appreciate your recognition that it’s at least possible that Nader’s decision to run was a but-for cause of the Bush presidency.  I agree that no such hypothetical can be conclusively shown to be true.  Here’s why I believe that, in this instance, the evidence is very strong.

      The main point is that Florida was so extraordinarily close.

      My recollection is that Nader himself released post-election polling about what his voters would have done without him on the ballot.  A certain percentage would have voted for Gore, and a certain percentage for Bush.  (We can ignore all the others as having no effect on the question at hand.)  My memory is that the difference between those two percentages was 13 points.

      Nader received 97,488 votes in Florida.  If his decision to stay off the ballot had delivered a net benefit to Gore of 13% of that total, it would have meant a shift of more than 12,000 votes toward the Gore-minus-Bush margin.  In the official count, Gore minus Bush was negative 537.  Make it a positive of more than 11,000 and it’s almost certainly beyond the reach of further Republican dirty tricks.  (Remember that Bush’s official margin was 537 even after Harris’s purge of 50,000 Democratic-leaning voters and even after the fiasco of the butterfly ballots.  The Republicans don’t have an unlimited capacity for election theft, or Obama wouldn’t have been able to carry the state twice.)

      An example of problematic is one I alluded to — the New Hampshire complication.  Bush’s margin over Gore was 7,211, with Nader pulling 22,198.  If a Nader decision not to run would have cause a net shift of only 13% of his votes, then Gore would still have fallen short.

      IMO, however, there’s a very good chance that Gore actually would have carried the state.  The 13% figure is based on exit polling conducted at the end of a campaign in which Nader (whom I once admired greatly) had been using his platform to blast Gore.  A typical nonentity Green Party candidate wouldn’t have had that effect.  Furthermore, there was immense resentment among Nader’s supporters over things like his exclusion from the televised debates.  That was the context in which some of them defiantly said they would’ve voted Green anyway or wouldn’t have voted or even would’ve voted for Bush.  I think it likely that, if there had been no Nader campaign at all, the net shift to Gore would’ve been at least one-third of the Nader vote.  That would have been enough to give Gore the state and the White House, regardless of Florida.

      That argument as to New Hampshire is problematic.  As to Florida, though, the case is much, much more clear.

    • #347529
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,304

      @jimlane Like we will never know that if Gore would have won, he would have stopped 9/11 or not invaded Iraq. I don’t think he would have invaded Iraq, but I don’t know. His election could have had ripple effects that changed all sorts of things; some good, some maybe not so good. It is impossible to say.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #347532
      djean111
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 6,277

      whatever happened, that is no reason to vote for the blue no matter who. Thread title still holds true.   Defense of the Democratic Party reminds me of cheesy TV lawyers trying to get their guilty client off on a technicality.  Citing previous cases, otherwise known as whataboutism.  Nope.

      Also “anathema” is a pretty strong word. “Not agreed with” or “not compelling enough to change a vote for the Green to a vote for a Vichy Dem” would be a better description.  And saying Greens can’t win – oh, really?  Fuck!  You don’t say! Hey, no matter if Biden OR Trump wins, we all lose.  IMO, etc. etc. etc.  Oh, and with folks like Debbie Wasserman Schultz here in Florida, making any definitive statement about vote counts is fucking ridiculous.  Ballots go missing, get tossed, ride around in car trunks, and so on.  FFS.  Tossing around counts and percentages based on REPORTED vote counts in Florida is just silly.


      @ohiobarbarian
      @jimlane

       

      America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)

      Everything I post is just my opinion, and, honestly, I would love to be wrong.

    • #347538
      closeupready
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,483

      He knows full well that in America, he’s only got a decent life as long as he sits on his fortune (which we can all agree is an indisputable fact).  Were it not for that fortune, his life would be just a horror, for all kinds of reasons.  So it shouldn’t be a surprise that he’s willing to compromise, like they all do (once they amass a fortune).

      You know, sometimes this discussion about liberalism starts with someone promoting the idea of raising taxes in order to provide more resources for social programs.  Inevitably, an adversary chimes in, “oh, sure, you favor robbing from the rich to give to the poor; you know you can pay every dime you possess to IRS, they’ll take it – just mail them a check! Go for it… (hehehe)”, I like to ask myself, well, I COULD do that.  Are there examples of people who have given “until it hurts”?  Not necessarily in taxes, but in terms of philanthropy?

      As a matter of fact, yes, both Vanessa Redgrave and Jane Fonda gave millions to NGO’s; Fonda ended up personally broke, which is what drove her to do her exercise videos that made her richer than ever.  I’m not as familiar with Vanessa Redgrave’s story, but I know I’ve read that she considers herself a socialist who has given a massive amount of money to humanitarian NGO’s.  She still acts, and her husband is a notable film director, so I don’t think she’s hurting, but it’s funny how Michael Moore is considered some kind of saint, when all he’s ever done is complain and whine, while charging people to hear him do it – I mean, he’s entertaining and he does good investigative stuff.  On the other hand, Vanessa Redgrave and Jane Fonda are two examples of entertainment industry people who really did put their money where their mouths are.

      The opinions and personal views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and should never be taken seriously.

    • #347543
      Captain Arizona
      Blocked
      • Total Posts: 294

      They really get annoyed when I tell them I voted for jill stein in 2016 and will probably vote green party in 2020. They tell me look what you did! I say yes I slowed down the corporate take over of the democratic party and help get AOC, Ilhan Omar and rashida tlaib elected. Also wrecked the republican party.

    • #347572
      Hobbit709
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,496

      In Florida 2000:

      The total number of voters who voted for Nader 97,488

      The total number of Democratic voters who voted for George Bush 308,000.

      Don’t blame Nader for costing Gore in Florida. Why did 300,000+ DEMOCRATS vote for Bush is the question you’re ignoring.

      I don't waste my time teaching pigs to sing.

    • #347584
      Jim Lane
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 828

      @hobbit709

      I’m guessing that your “You keep ignoring this part in Florida” is addressed to me.

      If so, might I respectfully suggest that you read my post before making assertions about what I supposedly ignored.

      Here’s the link: https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/omfg-these-vote-blue-no-matter-who-people-drive-me-up-a-freakin-wall/#post-347432 (tip: search for the phrase “Florida Democrats”).

      I know it’s longer than the average JPR post, but if you choose not to read the whole thing, then you can’t sensibly level a charge about what’s allegedly not in it.

      What you ignore is, for example, the Katherine Harris purge.  You write, “Don’t blame Nader for costing Gore in Florida.”  Your rationale is the bit about Democrats voting for Bush.  Does that mean it would also be wrong to blame Harris?  As I said, I think that a complex event can often have more than one cause.  On that basis, I don’t think that the infamous 300,000 votes requires us to ignore either Harris or Nader.  What’s striking is that the defenders of Saint Ralph never apply the same reasoning to Harris.  No one ever says that criticism of Harris is ill-founded because Gore would’ve won if every single Democrat had voted for him.

      If you accept the view that an event can have more than one cause, then Harris, Nader, SCOTUS, and butterfly ballots are all legitimate subjects for discussion.

    • #347617
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,304

      @satan My compliments to Hell’s databases.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #347644
      Hobbit709
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,496

      Catch Smallpox instead of The Plague-you have a slightly better chance of living.

      I don't waste my time teaching pigs to sing.

    • #347646
      ArtfromArk
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,565

      The Southern Manifesto was a document that was drawn up in the House and Senate in early 1956 in response to the Brown vs. Board of Education ruling. The document pledged to support states’ rights to oppose integration of public facilities. Johnson did not sign the document, along with senators Estes Kefauver and Al Gore, Sr. of Tennessee. Interesting that all 3 of those men would end up having some connection to the vice presidency– Kefauver was Adlai Stevenson’s running mate, LBJ served as vice president under Kennedy, and Al Gore Sr.’s son served as vice president under Clinton.

      “There’s a new spirit abroad in the land. The old days of ‘grab and greed’ are on their way out. We’re beginning to think of what we owe the other fellow, not just what we’re compelled to give him. The time’s coming… when we shan’t be able to fill our bellies in comfort while others go hungry, sleep in warm beds while others shiver in the cold.... And God willing, we’ll live to see that day…” Basil Rathbone,"Sherlock Holmes Faces Death" (Universal 1943)

    • #347649
      not4sale
      Blocked
      • Total Posts: 254

      Be sure to throw your vote away!

    • #347707
      djean111
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 6,277

      to fuck you over, is throwing your vote away.  No matter what you call the other team, this is not a fucking game.


      @not4sale
      – the funny thing is, the Democratic Party IS for sale, and sold itself to the highest bidder a while back,  and continues to auction off its wares to Wall Street.  Hint – we the people were not the highest bidder, and we never will be.  Plus we give them our votes for free!  Such a deal!

      America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)

      Everything I post is just my opinion, and, honestly, I would love to be wrong.

    • #347724
      PolecatHollerer
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,358

      JimLane’s assertions are like a digestive tract- convoluted and full of shit.

      If you give a man enough rope, it will be six inches too short. This is not the nature of rope- it is the nature of man.

    • #347782
      Jim Lane
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 828

      @polecathollerer

      They are, as you say, convoluted and full of shit.

      Unpleasant as they may be, however, they are also necessary.  If you didn’t have one, you would die.

      I hope my posts contribute to the discussion.  Nevertheless, they certainly aren’t necessary to life.  Therefore, while I appreciate your compliment, I must reject your simile as being overly generous to me.

    • #347792
      PolecatHollerer
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,358

      I never said it was COMPLETELY similar, @jimlane.

      It’s certainly not necessary to argue minute points concerning the interconnected causality of an event that never happened.

      All your clever, Biden-supporting sophistry is rendered moot by the historical fact that Gore didn’t lose the Florida vote.

      And when you attempt to sidetrack a fact-based discussion by inserting partisan fiction portrayed as truth, such “contributions” are very unnecessary. I’ll go so far as to say that they are HARMFUL to an honest conversation.

      If you give a man enough rope, it will be six inches too short. This is not the nature of rope- it is the nature of man.

    • #348276
      Bernice Ta
      Blocked
      • Total Posts: 216

      Voting for a person/party that has historically fucked you over, and has openly said they will continue to fuck you over, is throwing your vote away.

      I tried for years to vote blue, no matter what. They were better than the other guys! Except, when I finally opened my eyes and really looked, they weren’t. They were just as bad, they just did things nicer.

      It’s like I tell women in bad relationships, when someone shows you who they are, believe them. These days, the Dems don’t even try to hide it.

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