On the shutdown – and democrats.

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    • #8185
      David the Gnome
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      So, I’m sure we all remember the last government shutdown, due to the dems supposedly taking a stand on DACA and budget issues.  It did not take long though, for them to crumble under pressure – just the hint that Americans might be considering blaming them – and they fell all over themselves to get it back up.  So what is different now?

      Not the President, not the Senate – but the house.  The once again speaker of the house, and a democratic majority.  In years past, the democratic majority might have thrilled me – even now I prefer it to a Republican majority by a mile.  However…

      This shutdown?  Is essentially about giving the stupid orange baboon five billion for his wall – or not.  How much do we lose from the shutdown, each day?  How many go unpaid?  How many services are shutdown?

      Cheeto isnt going to build even a toy wall with five billion.  It’s about saving face.  So the Democrats can blame him for being unreasonable (and to be sure, he is – as well as childish) and the Republicans can say the dems are “weak on border security”.

      Look!  They say, “We sent a new bill!”  They of course, knew that even if it passed Trump would veto.  With everything going on.. they are still..  just playing games.

    • #8192
      Ohio Barbarian
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      maintenance people, etc. are not getting paid at all during the shutdown and most of them won’t even get back pay when it’s over. That can be absolutely crippling. None of those people have been mentioned at all as far as I know.

      Not that I’m in any way special in saying so. My stepdaughter managed the cafeteria in a federal building for a private contractor. When the government was shut down, she got nothing except an eviction notice.

      All that said, should the Democrats cave yet again? After Trump said on live television that he would accept responsibility and then lied about that like he does everything else? I don’t think so. The wall is wrong, and it is Trump who is holding people hostage in a temper tantrum. Congress, and this includes Republicans, should not yield to a presidential temper tantrum.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

      • #8196
        David the Gnome
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        On almost any other issue, I would agree with you.  On this one… I dont expect Trump to give in – if he doesnt – and they dont?  Those people getting eviction notices, not able to pay for gas, food, or medication… their lot doesnt improve unless the wheels start turning again, rusty as they are.

        Should the dems cave?  Absolutely not.  Offer some kind of trade he can accept and brag about.  Let him call himself a deal maker.  Give the idiot his wall money – he isnt going to build any kind of real wall anyway.

        The suffering in economic terms for federal employees – and the contractors who are losing their shirts..  as well as the impact of services going inactive…

        That will have a much, much higher price tag than five billion.  It would be different if I thought the dems were making a stand based on principle – but all they are doing is trying to make Republicans look bad

        Frankly, most Republican and Democrat politicians look like assholes anyway – and some times things are exactly what they seem to be.

        • #8199
          Ohio Barbarian
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          Maybe take it in exchange for a real, and easy, path to citizenship for DACA recipients. If Trump won’t deal, then shut down the entire frigging government. Stop commercial air travel. Stop postal delivery; my, wouldn’t Amazon just love that?

          The Republicans’ donors would tell them to override Trump. Even Fox News would turn on him. If they’re going to play a game, play one with real consequences. Can you tell I’m sick of half measures and baby steps?  🙁

          It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

          Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

          • #8758
            Anonymous
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            • Total Posts: 17

            my limited understanding after hearing a few stories aired in the past week is that DACA kids would be able to stay.    dems could use trump’s demand as leverage to get good legislation – tie the use of funds towards areas of the border where a wall may be useful.   does the $1.5 billion already do that?    would the corporate media tell us if it would?

            other countries have stronger requirements for citizenship – i’m not sure how clear a line should be drawn against stronger border security

      • #8239
        Vanflower
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        • Total Posts: 52

        What could we have had Obama kept his promises and fought for them?

        You mention the D shut down over DACA, T has offered a DAcA deal, for a measly 5billion Ds could have DACA, apparantly they are all talk.

        IDK but I am not afraid to say T has more spine than the entire D party and especially the elites quisling Obama.

        • #8245
          David the Gnome
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          About Trump, at least.  Had he ever intended to keep any kind of promise about the wall, he would be more honest in his presentation.  This may play to his base quite well, however…

          It was never his intention to build a border wall of any real significance.  With such things, you have to look at costs in not just construction, but in numbers of people employed – properly managing and vetting them.  You need, among other things, support staff for them as well – likely support staff for the support staff.

          If you want to do it effectively, you’re looking at a price tag that is no where even remotely close to five billion.  We might start at one hundred for a year – and go from there.  It’s a big border.

          What we might do instead is add border patrol agents, properly train and equip them.  Invest in tech to detect crossings, invest some in medical, legal support staff that can watch over both the patrol agents and those coming over the border.

          It is terribly, stupidly managed – but that is because people like Trump and Pelosi benefit from it.  They benefit by being able to severely underpay undocumented workers by however much they like.  Lots of people – no where near as rich, do the same.

    • #8224
      Babel 17
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      And Focus Group Fever!

      They’ll want to know how people are clumping on this. All the little spots on the spectrum will end up with parts of the electorate.

      And very important is what do swing voters in swing states think, and how strongly do they hold their opinion.

      Complicating matters is that some in Congress are in decidedly purple districts, and some of those also have to worry about primary challenges if they jump the wrong way.

      And there’s what Trump is worrying about. If he feels like rolling the dice then the Republicans in the Senate have to stick with him unless and until the polling gives them the excuse to defy him.

      Pelosi has to stick to her guns for at least a while, and she’ll definitely be watching what the polling means for her Democrats in the House.

      Schumer has his own concerns, and he can’t piss off the party’s Wall Street and Banking donors too much. And there are purple states that will have elections for the Senate in 2020. The border wall could break either way in those states, and the calculation has to weigh who will it just annoy, and for who is it a deal breaker.

      If Schumer undercuts Pelosi, then she could lose the critical mass of needed votes in the House.

      It’s a game of chicken, but with polling.

      • #8437
        Vanflower
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        If you have not been paying attention see the reports on the prototypes already built.  True, I doubt any of those will be built, instead look for a slat steel fence, while not a “wall” it is a permanent barrier…any criticism on this issue is semantics and useful only for idiots who are either woefully ill-informed or against any sort of barrier already.

        The costs will exceed the 5billion for sure.

    • #8226
      David the Gnome
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      Formatting issues, hopefully replying to the OP will make it look better.

      I hear you, seriously.  We have been playing shutdown/no shutdown for years – and in terms of budgeting, they just keep kicking the can down the road, passing the buck, so to speak.

      Yeah, it pisses me off, too – and I am sick of half measures and nonsense.  My concern here though, isnt for the politics or how one side or the other looks.  Let’s face it, my friend, politicians are idiots and/or crooks, for the most part.

      What I worry for is the toll this is taking on tens of thousands of people who now have no money.  People getting eviction notices, going without medication, unable to pay for heat.  We can debate this endlessly, but without wall money, Trump wont budge.  Five billion now… or tens, perhaps eventually hundreds, all told, in cost to individuals, families, services inoperative, etc.

      It’s not even really about the money.  Five billion, to you or I is a ridiculous fortune – but these people deal in hundreds of billions, trillions even.  No wall can be built for that, nor maintained, nor patrolled.

    • #8229
      David the Gnome
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      Babel pointed out some political realities, very accurately.  All the politicians are watching the polls and seeing how voters react.  Playing chicken – but also playing us all for fools.

      No one, not Trump, not the Democrats, not the Republicans…. no one seriously thinks this wall is a good idea unless they are smoking something or just plain stupid.  It won Trump some votes, which is why he promised his “big beautiful wall” that Mexico was going to pay for.

      We could ask the Chinese how a real one worked out.  History’s ultimate example.  Turns out that when you build a ridiculously huge wall… you need a lot of work and money and people to maintain and patrol it, never mind even the original construction costs.

      I can imagine the Mongols thinking much the same, as they looked up at it and laughed.  Impressive, but where are the people who propose to keep us out?  Oh look, within a mile, there are… three? Five?

      The real thing?  It would cost hundreds of billions, eventually trillions, to construct, maintain and police.  To truly, effectively use it would have a yearly price tag that would be staggering.

      In the end, it wouldn’t keep everyone out, either.  Unless we drafted tens of thousands of people to stand watch – and even then.. guards can be bribed.

      The whole thing is just stupid.

       

    • #8231
      Cold Mountain Trail
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      “wall” under discussion today): the secure fence act of 2006 (under bush)

      under Obama, a technological $7B “virtual fence” was planned — the same thing the democrats are talking about now.

      trump wants 5B for a wall — apparently he has cheaper contractors..

      all of a piece imho

       

       

    • #8232
      HIP56948
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      My wife (retired), who used to be a Construction Project Manager pointed out something with these words:

      “5 billion huh, you’ve got to be kidding me!”  “The various groups like the Cato institute put the cost at around 20 billion and MY guess is in the neighbor hood of 25-30 billion”  “I’ve had 32 years experience with this kind of #@$#% low-balling!”

      “This lying piece of dirt knows damn well that his 5 billion is just a start-up fee for what he wants to accomplish”

      Crawling through reality.

    • #8235
      Vanflower
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      • Total Posts: 52

      <p style=”text-align: left;”>Cut a deal on DACA and open the gov back up?</p>

    • #8238
      doh1304
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      • Total Posts: 1,311

      claiming to be from the state department. This morning I tried to call the FTC to report it. I got a recorded message saying that they were shut down.

      There are real consequences. Trump is a race baiting asshole, but the Democrats are playing identity politics while thieves are benefiting. They are the ones who will look bad.

      I was a taxi driver for thirty years, and during that time I lost thousands of dollars because the companies could always use immigrant workers to undercut me – and the previous wave of immigrants. People have long understood that the “immigration debate” is about destroying the fabric of American society for corporate power and profit, and the Democrats are on the wrong side. Trump is trying to aggrandize himself by appealing to racists, but the Democrats are creating racists for the benefit of their corporate masters. They are the greater evil.

      • #8248
        David the Gnome
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        I dont see either party as a “greater evil”, anymore, only two different kinds of evil.  One will play nice, smile to your face, promise you the moon… then grab your wallet and run.  The other comes right to your face, tells you exactly what they really think – and then proceeds to beat the snot out of you, your grandma – and the neighborhood children.

        Metaphorically…. mostly.  Basically, the majority within both parties are some of the nastiest kinds of people.  Idiots, who are extremely sure of themselves.  Trump demonstrates this on a rather extreme level.  Obama was far more subtle, better spoken and so on, but at the end of the day, he’d probably sell his own mother.

    • #8241
      David the Gnome
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      If you look at it in terms of functionality and expenses over time..  well, you need so many people for each section.  In order to effectively keep others out, you need a reliable force – and given the size a real border wall would have – you would need a huge force.  You would need money for frequent maintenance and repairs, paying all associated staff, etc.

      Hundreds of billions.  For five billion, he could build such a thing around one of his towers, maybe even the White House.  But for the entire border?  Uhh… no.  Not even remotely close.

      We would be better served investing in technology for such purposes.

      Theres also the fact that, in this age of human flight via planes, helicopters, jets, etc. It wouldn’t do any damn good against any serious force.  For that, you would need to build something like a dome with missile defense..  over the whole Country.

      Do Trump supporters understand any of this, I wonder?  Some of them must….

    • #8726
      Cold Mountain Trail
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      but it cost more than $5B

      the whole wall thing is a joke

    • #8756
      jerry611
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      • Total Posts: 1,019

      The whole 2018 election was about opposing Donald Trump in every possible way. The problem with that is that Donald Trump is still the president. Any laws or policy you want to pass or implement is going to require his signature (plus the approval of a Republican Senate). So when you run a campaign on nothing else but opposing the President, and you keep that promise, the government is going to effectively shut down. And that’s what is happening.

      Blue states say they don’t want what the red states want. But the red states are saying they don’t want what the blue states want. We are an increasingly divided country. And it’s starting to put a lot of strain and stress on our government systems and institutions. We are likely to see more and more shut downs in the future as each side becomes more and more frustrated with the lack of progress with their agenda.

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