Petition: Abolish The Electoral College

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  • #256173

    Snort McDork
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    @snortmcdork
  • #256229

    The Red Menace
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    • Total Posts: 858
    @twilightsporkle

    Again with this shit.

    Okay so, let me explain a few things.

    First off – just because it’s annoying me – the slogan on that graphic “Land doesn’t vote, people do!” is dumb. The Electoral College has nothing at all to do with acreage. The number of electors a state gets is the same as the number of legislators it has – two senators plus however many house representatives serve that state. Meaning aside from the first two, the electoral college is representational to its population.

    Second, this is a literal fantasy. It would take a constitutional amendment to abolish the electoral college. Such an amendment would die in the legislature and never reach the states. Moreover, it’s a spite fantasy, a bunch of sneering wimps groping themselves to the idea of punishing people they dislike.

    Third, the core argument is this: “It’s unfair that Montana has a whopping three electoral votes while California only has a measly fifty-five!”

  • #256240

    djean111
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    • Total Posts: 3,103
    @djean111

    Nope.  Not as long as the Democrats, in particular, can fuck with the results.    We would have Mad Queen Hillary right now.  The only states’ rights the people who yammer for this want is the right of a big state to fuck over smaller states.  And California is NOT a fucking beacon of progressiveness.

    I will not vote for a Vichy Dem. Period. As always, I decide who is a Vichy Dem.

    Bernie's ISSUES or Bust!

    • #256248

      JonLP
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      @jonlp

      Every time I vote in my state the Republican wins all the electoral votes. My vote counts much less under an EC.

      Both Trump and Clinton are awful so the idea we don’t have Clinton doesn’t make me feel any better especially with this children in cages crap and the mess at our Southern border caused by Trump.

       

      Anyways the system is tyranny by the minority. All these little red states are dictating policies in Washington against the wishes of the majority.

      • #256256

        The Red Menace
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        • Total Posts: 858
        @twilightsporkle

        All these little red states are dictating policies in Washington against the wishes of the majority.

        Hi there. Despite currently living in Washington, I consider myself an Alaskan, having come of age there.

        Please tell me all about the enormous, undue influence Alaska has in American politics. Tell me about how the 730,000 people there are just crushing you under their bootheels.

        And then please explain to me how it is that the federal government will fall over its own ass to suck the cock of a single rich Californian, but will pay no need whatsoever to those 730,000 people who do not want a new leaky-ass pipeline snaking through their state. Since they have SO MUCH influence and exert their tyranny on the poor beleaguered serfs of California.

        And then please, please oh please, explain to me how it is you believe, with absolute certainty, that Floridians, of all people, are thirty times more qualified to decide on policy pertinent to Alaska than Alaskans themselves would be.

        • #256270

          JonLP
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          @jonlp

          Collectively all those red states add up while most people live in the cities. It is also more difficult to vote in big cities than red rural areas.

          • #256422

            The Red Menace
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            @twilightsporkle

            You didn’t even try to answer my questions.

            • #256471

              JonLP
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              @jonlp

              My post was not about Florida vs Alaska but from what I understand the rural red areas especially the area south of Alabama are who turns Florida red.

              I tried to clarify what I meant because you replied to my post. I’m saying all these states Wyoming, North Dakota, Oklahoma add up while most voters are concentrated in urban areas.

              Also Congress isn’t proportional either because of the 435 cap and Gerry mandering.

              I understand the Senate getting 2 Senators each but not the EC.

               

      • #256258

        djean111
        Member
        • Total Posts: 3,103
        @djean111

        So, you do not believe in having individual states?  You believe big states should run things?  That the US should really be just one big entity?  or do you believe that states are fine, as long as the big states get to dictate to the little states?  Why not move to a big state where most people vote the way you do?  A state is just an arbitrary  geographical thing, right?  Not having the EC just means the big states dictate to all.  IMO, just go ahead and abolish states at that point.  Also, holding California up as a state that should run the rest of the country, because it is BIG, is not wishing well for the rest of the country.  California is not stellar or #1 in any category.  Except perhaps cheating in elections.  Not having the EC makes cheating at elections very useful.  Like, say, those millions of extra votes in California.  I don’t think we should abolish the EC unless we can guarantee honest elsections.  As if that is ever going to happen.

        Oh, and Obama built and used those cages.  And deported a record number of people.  And Hillary was, and is, a more murderous warmonger – with receipts! – than Trump can hope to be.   He may get there, but Hillary actually has experience and zest for waging war.  No thanks.  In any event, what you want and what I want is not important.  Big money runs everything anyway, we just squabble in the dust.

        I will not vote for a Vichy Dem. Period. As always, I decide who is a Vichy Dem.

        Bernie's ISSUES or Bust!

    • #256406

      doh1304
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      • Total Posts: 991
      @doh1304

      Right! Right! djean. what is Sen. Markley thinking, making Oregon irrelevant?  Without the EC everything but LA and NYC and maybe a couple other cities – and their (now Democratic machines) will rule the country. Solving today’s problems with today’s thinking will doom us to a future of constant failure. There will always be good and bad political factions, special interests, demagogues, con men. responding to each as they come without fundamental principles is insane.

      In over 200 years we only had 2 occasions where the EC did not agree with the popular vote, Jackson/JQ Adams and Hayes/Tilden. In the second the election was actually stolen and in the first Adams was the far better man.  only recently have we had another two, Bush/Gore and Trump/Clinton. 2000 was simply stolen and Trump… always remember, The Kill Crazy Lovecraftian Horror. Who would you really want to have the launch codes, a con man or a russiaphobic psychopathic killer?

  • #256262

    LiberalElite
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    @liberalelite

    I just signed it because it makes me feel better.  Now I’m on all those Democratic email lists, including Daily Kos, again.  *sighs*  

    I feel much better since I gave up hope.

    "If everyone demanded peace instead of another television set, then there’d be peace." – John Lennon

  • #256304

    RufusTFirefly
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    • Total Posts: 1,654
    @rufustfirefly

    So, should we also abolish giving sparsely populated states like Wyoming two senators?

    It’s the same underlying principle. And, if you know your history, it’s a principle that was instrumental in unifying the American colonies into the United States.

    Rather than abolishing the Electoral College outright (which would require a Constitutional amendment), I favor the proportional awarding of electors, a policy that two states already follow. Unfortunately, this change must be made by the individual states.

    Democrats in winner-take-all red states shouldn’t feel that their presidential votes are meaningless. Likewise with Republicans in blue states. If the electors are rewarded proportionally, these alienated voters will regain their voices without instituting a system that would all but eliminate so-called “retail politics” and restrict most campaigning to “major markets.”

  • #256328

    NV Wino
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    @nvwino

    This big state vs little state argument regarding popular vote is a fallacy in my opinion. Presidential elections affect the entire country. The popular vote is about what the people of the entire country want. It doesn’t matter where in that country they live. It doesn’t matter that California has more people and Alaska fewer.

    And yes, we certainly need better monitoring of elections to insure there is no cheating, and that goes for popular and electoral votes. Cheat the popular vote and you’ve equally cheated the electoral vote.

    “As we act, let us not become the evil that we deplore.” Barbara Lee
    “Politicians and pro athletes: The only people who still get paid when they lose.” William Rivers Pitt

    • #256424

      The Red Menace
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      • Total Posts: 858
      @twilightsporkle

      This big state vs little state argument regarding popular vote is a fallacy in my opinion. Presidential elections affect the entire country. The popular vote is about what the people of the entire country want. It doesn’t matter where in that country they live. It doesn’t matter that California has more people and Alaska fewer.

      It does matter, because of politicla capital.

      Oregon has four million people. So does just the incorproated city of Los angeles. Los Angeles is wealthier though. Los Angeles is the media hup of hte country. its issues are trendier and the focus of news across the nation. its population is more diverse, making for better crowd shots at campaign stops. And frankly the hotels are better.

      So. Why would a politician ever give four million Oregonians the time of day, when they could give that time to four million angelenos who have the same amount of votes, but so much more political capital? Who gets their issues heard? Who gets their needs focused? Four million political wealthy Angelenos or four million politically destitute Oregonians?

      They’re not equal.

      It also matters because these people do not have identical concerns, needs, and issues. I bring up Alaska because the concerns of Alaska are often very separated from the concerns of most people in the lower 48 – the same can be said for Hawaiians, and both flavors of Dakotans – living on the imperial fringe creates a different suite of political needs. needs that are never addressed as it stands right now, and that will absolutely never be addressed in a straight popular vote system.

      I’ve seen a lot of people arguing to abolish the electoral college. here, in other discussion boards, twitter, facebook. You know what I’ve never seen? Any one of these proponents presenting an idea for how to make sure the political minority still has some power, still has their interests represented in some fashion. it is 100% “I want Democrats to be in charge and everyone else can suck it, they don’t matter, fuck them,” across the board, without fail or exception.

      After all. They’re not real people. Just some hicks.

      • #256434

        bazukhov
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        @bazukhov

        So. Why would a politician ever give four million Oregonians the time of day, when they could give that time to four million angelenos who have the same amount of votes, but so much more political capital?

        I was born and raised in Los Angeles.   I moved to Oregon in 1980.   My vote in Oregon didn’t count any less, or more, than my vote in LA.  Now I live in Washington, and my vote still has the same political capital as it did in LA or Oregon.

        We vote for the President every 4 years to run the country…not the public library in Strawberry Point Iowa.   All votes should have the same “political capital”  as in “One man, one vote” in every presidential election.

        Do you think that the Electoral College reflects the “will of the people” when the person elected in 2016 got 3,000,000 fewer votes than his opponent?   Did those 3,000,000 votes have no “political capital”?

        Tell me, great captain, how do the angels sleep when the devil leaves his porch light on? Tom Waites

        • #256436

          The Red Menace
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          @twilightsporkle

          They should have the same weight.

          But they don’t. because people in wealthy, influential places have more worth than people who live in poor, rural areas.

          I’m sure you’re fine with that. like I said, those aren’t real people. Just some hicks

           

          Next i’m sure you’ll be advocating a flat tax.

          • #256447

            bazukhov
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            @bazukhov

            Do they have poll taxes in the “small” states?   Do ballots cost more in Wyoming than New York?  Do people living in under bridges in Houston weigh more than people living in farm houses Nebraska?  Are there no wealthy people in rural states?

            How does that “weight” work when counting ballots?

             

            Tell me, great captain, how do the angels sleep when the devil leaves his porch light on? Tom Waites

  • #256329

    retired liberal
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    @retiredliberal

    Between “Winner Take All”, the people picked to be on the electoral voters and Electoral Collage people being free to vote however they wish, the Electoral Collage has become just more corruption in our election process. There is no reason we cannot vote directly for the President. None This rural vs cities and the rest of it, are nothing more than distraction from the real problem – The deep pockets, moneyed controlling who gets to be President. No other country has anything like an Electoral Collage, so why do we have to put up with it?  The people don’t count for much with the Electoral Collage. Yeah we dodged a bullet last time, but that still doen’t make the Electoral Collage a good thing.
    Hillary? She got the most votes because of a long list of nation wide, Primary and General Election fraud. In a fair and honest election, she would have been an also ran in the primary, never getting to the General!
    This country hasn’t had a honest General Election since 1996. And each year the corruption gets worse and “We the people…” have less and less say in our so-called leaders. We are only allowed to vote because then we think we do have a say. But do we really?

    We are an arrogant species, believing our fantasy based "facts" are better than the other person's fake facts.

    If you are wrong, it will be because you are not cynical enough.

    Both major political parties are special interest groups enabling each other for power and money, at the expense of the people they no longer properly serve…

  • #256334

    David the Gnome
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    @davidthegnome

    @deadpool

    For some reason, this thread keeps demanding authentication from me – username and password.  From PBS, apparently?

  • #256370

    bazukhov
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    @bazukhov

    Damned right it should be abolished.    We’re voting for president of all the people.  Not just the residents of Cow Fly, Wyoming.

    Tell me, great captain, how do the angels sleep when the devil leaves his porch light on? Tom Waites

  • #256378

    mindpilot
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    @mindpilot

    Doesn’t really matter much. Some hicks in Iowa pick the candidates, and then we pretend that our votes actually mean something as we choose between thing one and thing two. And if we do screw up and elect a decent leader, the SC or the EC will fix it for us.

    Slavery was the legal fiction that people can be property.
    Corporatism is the legal fiction that property can be people.

    "If you believe in god, I'm probably smarter than you." -- Tom Leykis

  • #256453

    game meat
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    @gamemeat

    The electoral college saved us from the neoliberals monopolizing the executive branch for the foreseeable future. That’s why the Democrats are pushing this. Without Pennsylvania, et al. checking their power HRC would currently be running for reelection on a typical Obama/Clinton platform. The fact that it also gave us Trump is a result of their failures, not Wyoming’s three electoral votes.

    There would be no second chance at Sanders, no talk of MFA, no nothing. Just more of the same because that’s good enough for California.

    It is not the electoral college that is elitist. In fact, it is the opposite. What’s elitist is sneering at so called ‘hicks’ in rural states that you feel superior to and don’t think should matter.

  • #256458

    Ohio Barbarian
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    @ohiobarbarian

    Well, if we’re going to have a constitutional amendment to change the way the President is elected, why not just change the entire structure of the Executive and Legislative Branches? Go for broke. I would prefer a parliamentary system with proportional representation, myself. Failing that, a real parliamentary system with a President elected by direct popular vote.

    Ranked-choice voting would be icing on the cake. If we’re going to experiment, well, let’s do some serious experimenting then!

    While I’m at it, why not just abolish the Senate altogether? The whole express reason for it was to check the will of the majority. It was put there to represent the already wealthy and powerful. Why keep it?

    I can argue over the ideal constitution all day long. But I’m a weirdo who liked how Plato and Aristotle made me think.

    Getting rid of the electoral college itself isn’t a magic bullet. @gamemeat makes a good point about 2016–the Midwestern states blocked the ascension of a neoliberal sociopath whose policies had already wrecked the lives of the majority of their people. The message they sent to the Democratic Party was clear–NO MORE NEOLIBERAL ASSHOLES!!!

    At any rate, a petition on this subject isn’t going to accomplish anything. I’ll do what I can to help Bernie Sanders and others like him achieve real power and address some more pressing problems first.

     

    We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

    With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

    • #256473

      Maedhros
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      • Total Posts: 450
      @maedhros

      I was going to post in favor of the parliamentary system, but you beat me to it.

      If we’re going to amend the constitution, then let’s use the opportunity to upgrade our democracy.  We’re running Democracy 1.27, while other countries are at least running 2.0.  There are fatal flaws with version 1, including a restriction to two parties and winner-take-all elections, that guarantee the muffling of minority concerns.

      His body recovered from his torment and became hale,
      but the shadow of his pain was in his heart;
      and he lived to wield his sword with left hand
      more deadly than his right had been.

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