Poll question: Trump impeachment

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Was Trump guilty?

All 51 democrats, including Bernie Sanders thought he was guilty based on the hearings.

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  • #1 Yes
  • #2 No
Viewing 21 reply threads
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    • #403455
      salemcourt
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,630

      Given the evidence presented, did you think Trump was guilty of incitement as charged?

    • #403460
      jbnw
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,101

      The U.S. Supreme Court explained in Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969) that “the constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action.”

      https://firstamendmentwatch.org/does-the-first-amendment-protect-trump-on-incitement-to-riot/

      “I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard.”

      https://www.npr.org/2021/02/10/966396848/read-trumps-jan-6-speech-a-key-part-of-impeachment-trial

      If free speech rights had been a major argument in either the House impeachment or the Senate trial, I may have a different opinion.

    • #403472
      beeninthewoods
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 116

      There are at most 50 Democrats in the Senate. Kamala only votes in a tie breaker. SO there should have only been 50 Dems counted as voting.

    • #403475
      closeupready
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,173

      Being refused a second term by American voters in an election with a definitive outcome is punishment enough for being an irresponsible leader, who could have stopped much of this nonsense if he’d made the effort.

      And ask yourself if Nancy Pelosi claims she is doing this for the benefit of the American people, then why did she play political games with the stimulus relief when Donald Trump was willing to give her more than she was asking for? Why did she support Medicare-for-All in 1993, and now during a pandemic in which thousands of Americans have died, she says, “I am not a fan of Medicare-for-All”?

      I get that Beltway insiders hate outsiders meddling in their swamp, those who aim to reform a dirty, corrupt system full of all kinds of legalized bribery, but I don’t care. They should be doing so much more, but all they do is waste time and money, service the 1%, and punish the 99%.

      And on voting on this poll, I did not watch a single minute of this garbage, and further, it would serve no purpose to vote here except to give hate-fodder for those who disagree with my views on other stuff. So no, I won’t vote in this poll.

      The opinions and personal views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and should never be taken seriously.

    • #403476
      Sorbish
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 70

      Three that utterly failed failed around partisan voting patterns, and 2 of them lacked an insider who could testify, with John Dean-like claririty and lead to discovery of the undeniable evidence needed to get around narrative spinning by questionably honest defense lawyers.

      IMO the House Managers never really forged a chain of argument that demonstrated to the American citizenry an undeniable evidentiary link of Trump to the offense for which the article of impeachment as it was written. That left people like McConnell the escape route needed around conviction. McConnell can claim he couldn’t vote to convict of the charged offense based on the failed argument, even though he personally believed that Trump, in all practicality, contributed to the occurrence and duration of the riot, the deaths, injuries, terror and damage.

      Had the House carried out an investigation before writing a resolution on what they saw and felt from their shared experience, McCarthy’s original statement might have been corroborated by many witnesses, and an article of impeachment might have been built that could have been linked to Trump’s depraved indifference and his failure to act to protect the Capitol, the Congress.

      Trump’s intent wouldn’t have needed proving, only his failure to act and corroboration of the McCarthy-Trump conversation. The ridiculous and damaging semantic battle around the word ‘fight’ would never have been witnessed by the American public.

      Ending the pandemic needs a shot in the arm.

      .

    • #403490
      mrdmk
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,875

      During the debates on National TV Trump said, “Stand back and stand by” he was guilty. Trump knew who the people he was addressing, what motivated them, also what they were capable of. Trump only inflamed his followers from that point on.

      Another problem after that was, Trump made the transfer of power hostile. He even said so publicly. So yeah, he is guilty.

      If you cannot dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit WC Fields

      Warning DO NOT CLICK HERE!
    • #403493
      Fasttense
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,535

      Only his filthy rich sycophants saved his fat butt from being found guilty.

      But maybe I should defer to Satan about the Hell part.

    • #403501
      NV Wino
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 7,051

      Which is how I voted. Trump gets so caught up in his own rhetoric that he may not have known he was inciting an insurrection. He most certainly, if he finally figured it out, did not care. His, frequently low-intellect, followers got so caught up in his rhetoric that they were sure it was the right thing to do. They’ve had their (Obama’s going to take away our) guns ready for years, and here was someone who condoned their use. There were other players, of course: those in the capital who did not prepare, those who actually helped. But, if Trump had kept his trap shut, this would not have happened to the extent it did.

      “As we act, let us not become the evil that we deplore.” Barbara Lee
      “Politicians and pro athletes: The only people who still get paid when they lose.” William Rivers Pitt

      • #403702
        Fasttense
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,535

        Tell me something, Do you think Trump sounds like a bad Jerry Lewis comedy or is it just me?

        • #403706
          NV Wino
          Moderator
          • Total Posts: 7,051

          But, yes. I was always told to make sure the mind was engaged before opening my mouth. I think Trump is simply missing the engage lever.

          “As we act, let us not become the evil that we deplore.” Barbara Lee
          “Politicians and pro athletes: The only people who still get paid when they lose.” William Rivers Pitt

    • #403510
      sadoldgirl
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,207

      The question is a partisan one, because impeachment has

      become a rather cheapened political tool. So I won’t go there.

      All politicians rile up their supporters one way or another. It

      is the responsibility of the supporter to judge whether the proposed

      action is legal or not. I refuse to accept “My leader ordered me to do

      this” excuse. Unless you are in the military under orders it is your

      responsibility  to act within the law.

    • #403525
      bazukhov
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,978

      Donnie was voted guilty by a majority of the Senate.   A very solid majority of Americans voted to throw the bastard out.

      The best part is the Republicans are now grimly blaming each other and destroying their party.   My own usually party-line voting Repub rep voted for impeachment and is being blamed by the local party.   But, it was a pretty smart move on her part.   This being a purple district with the urban/suburban dwellers mostly voting Dem or Moderate Republican.    She should draw some Dem and get the urban Repub votes and win easily in 2022.

      Tell me, great captain, how do the angels sleep when the devil leaves his porch light on? Tom Waites

    • #403528
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 19,954

      Therefore I will abstain since I didn’t see the evidence as presented and never will if I can help it.

      Is Trump guilty of inciting insurrection against the United States government? I’d find him not guilty by reason of insanity if nothing else.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #403546
      Joe Shlabotnik
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 972

      but why does the poll add up to 104.76?

      ~ All good things are Wild and Free ~

      • #403708
        NV Wino
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 7,051

        (Because I could.) 😁

        “As we act, let us not become the evil that we deplore.” Barbara Lee
        “Politicians and pro athletes: The only people who still get paid when they lose.” William Rivers Pitt

    • #403566
      retired liberal
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,747

      They know if they try too hard to actually fix the corruption, they will be in some kind of unfortunate accident. Failed brakes at 90 MPH around a curve, or in a small plane that will fall out of the sky, maybe bad shell fish…. Or maybe even be suicided by two bullets in the head.

      We are an arrogant species, believing our fantasy based "facts" are better than the other person's fake facts.
      If you are wrong, it will be because you are not cynical enough.
      Both major political parties are special interest groups enabling each other for power and money, at the expense of the people they no longer properly serve…
      Always wear a proper mask when out and about. The life you save could be both yours and mine.

    • #403576
      incognito
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,574

      Just like it’s against the law to yell fire in a theater, it’s against the law FOR THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES to incite an insurection against his own government. It has NOTHING to do with free speech. Free speech has its limits and this was one of those limits.

      Hopefully someone, somewhere will charge him with a Federal crime, he’ll be convicted and can never run for office again.  He needs to go away. This country cannot survive him running for president again. We’re hanging on by our fingernails here.

    • #403623
      snot
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,174

      I don’t think there’s any doubt he did what he was accused of.

      Free speech, b.t.w., entitles you to say what you want, but not necessarily to keep or get the job you want.  It’s totally irrelevant to this impeachment trial.

      Destruction is easy; creation is hard, but more interesting.

      • #403793
        Cold Mountain Trail
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 12,044

        “Free speech, b.t.w., entitles you to say what you want, but not necessarily to keep or get the job you want. It’s totally irrelevant to this impeachment trial.”

        –Thank you @snot

        Hard to stomach seeing talking points from the Trump defense posted as received wisdom

    • #403670
      Voltairine
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,997

      Do I think US is a tyranny and insurrection is justified? Yes. Did Trump rebel against the tyranny? Nope.

      Aloha!

    • #403686
      MizzGrizz
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,152

      ..with that poorly done political theater.

      But had I been in Congress I would have voted Not Guilty based on the fact that he told the marchers to walk to the Capitol “peacefully and patriotically.”

      It got completely out of hand,but Trump is too scattered and fragmented to have sat down and cooked up a plot for them to riot.

      Does he bear some responsibility?Yes,but not enough to constitute a high crime or misdemeanor.

       

    • #403731
      chknltl
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,287

      I think I must side with those who abstained from voting.

      That said, after four years of the Dems trying to impeach the man…

      …and all of those same four years we watched most of the media hounding President Trump…

      …mix in the fact that his supporters were hyperfocused to this entire mess…

      …now combine with the Donald’s ego,

      ….We will see President* Trump back for a second run at the Presidency.

      I’ve said this here before, President Trump will be back but this time he will be stronger than ever.

      It is the Democratic party who have set that stage for his return and I do not see how the Republican Party can get out of the way.

      Interesting times indeed.

      Of course this is just my opinion.

      *(Whatever came of the custom of calling a U.S. ex-POTUS “President”? President Jimmy Carter wouldn’t be introduced as “ex”President Carter would he? Like him or no, I believe credit is due where credit is due and I will call the man by his title…when I remember to do so that is.)

    • #403743
      jbnw
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,101

      It’s just barely over the 2/3 majority with a number of abstentions which can’t be counted.

      We’re definitely not a pro-Trump group, but many believe that a conviction wasn’t justified.   I just checked; an ABC poll shows that it’s not a 2/3 majority in the county:

      Over half of Americans (58%) say that Trump should have been convicted, which tracks with the 56% who said the same last week before the 57-43 Senate vote to acquit left Trump free to possibly run for office again. Last year, after Trump was acquitted in his first Senate impeachment trial, Americans were evenly split on the outcome, with 49% approving of the Senate’s judgment and 47% disapproving, according to a Monmouth University poll.

      https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/impeachment-trial-solidified-views-trump-conviction-poll/story?id=75892916

      • #403746
        salemcourt
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 2,630
        • #403750
          jbnw
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 4,101

          Or maybe, I hope that we have way more Democrats and independents than Republicans – I expect that many, if not most, of us DemExited after the way Bernie was cheated in two elections.

          I also like that we are thoughtful even if we may hold different opinions 🙂

          • #403790
            chknltl
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 1,287

            To be clear, I see both Parties as two sides of the same coin.

            They are both acutely aware of who pays them to do what bidding.

            The highest bidders get what they want from “our” government.

            For many of these highest bidders, they could care less who is in charge because they will get what they want for pennies on the hundreds of dollars either way.

            In such an environment, the citizenry have no chance-we have no hope of getting fair representation.

            I was once a staunch supporter of the Democratic Party.

            I voted for Humphry I think, later I know that I voted for President Carter, then Anderson,(ok so he was an Independent), twice for President Bill Clinton, twice for President Obama but after team Hillary cheated Bernie I gave up on the party.

            I quit SV back then as well.

            Again, I am neither a Democrat nor a Republican due to the fact that neither side represents me.

            FWIW: Nominee Trump said some things I liked.

            I am anti-war, we really do need to find peace between the East and the West… …again.

            Nominee Trump said many things I did not like but here was something he ran on that I liked.

            He promised to make nice with Russia. He promised to stop funding NATO.

            Nominee Clinton said nothing I liked. Her history shows that she is pro-war.

            I am heartsick that my country is the bad guys here.

            To all who read this: for me the greatest song EVER written is Winds of Change by The Scorpions.

            Did you know that song is considered by many as the Song of the Century?

            No-not here in our country but in Europe and in the old USSR it is an important song.

            It is a song of hope.

            Growing up a child of the Cold War, this song of songs made the greatest impact on my soul.

            While Klause Meinze(sp?) of the Scorpions was performing alongside a few other Western bands in Russia, he noted the winds of change he speaks of in his song.

            Klaus says that he could see among the soldiers and the kids of Soviet Union how they wanted an ending to the Cold War.

            That was his inspiration for The Winds Of Change.

            He actually wrote it before the Berlin Wall came down.

            Now go back and watch the song Winds Of Change played by the Scorpions on YouTube…but don’t watch any ol’ version.

            Watch it with the Scorpions playing alongside the Berlin Philharmonic…

            …or watch a different version of it being played in London for Gorbechev’s 90th birthday…

            … or watch it played amidst some amazing fireworks in Moscow.

            How AMAZING!!!…a German performing THAT song to the Russian citizenry!

            Consider what the Germans did to the Russians just a half century earlier…and Klause is asking them “…and did you ever think, that we could be so close…like brothers?”

            The song still fills me with hope…

            My country has to stop perpetuating war.

            I will NEVER vote for a warmonger.

            • #403807
              jbnw
              Participant
              • Total Posts: 4,101

              @chknltl I will have to watch and listen to Winds of Change – I am reminded that the Scorpions are the favorite band of a friend of mine from Moscow.

            • #403813
              MizzGrizz
              Participant
              • Total Posts: 3,152

              ..his first day in office…he killed the TPP.

              I never voted for him either time,but that was something he did that was truly good.

              • #403859
                chknltl
                Participant
                • Total Posts: 1,287

                @MizzGrizz
                Nominee Trump promised to kill President Obama’s TPP and once in office… he did just that.

                I for one was thrilled at his promise and even happier when President Trump followed through with it.

                Like the man or no, credit where credit is due.

                This poll question has gone far astray and I did my part to push it there. That said, I’ve every confidence that President Biden will put TPP back on the table again.

                Regarding impeachments:

                IMO Impeachments require detailed investigations.

                How I wanted President Bush jr. to face those investigations. Win lose or draw I expected to see unforseen cards placed on the table against President Bush. I wanted his evil empire, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft and etc to be brought to trial for what they did to Iraq.

                We broke it. Now was the time to admit that we broke it and to find ways to prevent such things from happening again.

                Then we took over the House Of Representatives. Nancy Pelosi was made House Speaker.

                The Conservative faction of our media was up in arms! Speaker Pelosi was going to impeach President Bush they wailed…Shit was gonna get done now!…or so I thought.

                Well that was how I saw things/how I felt back then.

                If this poll above was if I felt President Bush jr. should have been impeached my response would have been: HELL YEAH!!!

                But Madam Speaker, perhaps as her first act, took impeachment off the table.

                She stabbed me in the back that day.

                Moving forward, when Pelosi regained the House Speakership I was on to her bull-poop ways.

                I knew that either she would choose to not impeach President Trump or find a ridiculous reason to impeach him.

                Russiagate and that whole Ukranian matter were those ridiculous reasons.

                In the eyes of President Trump’s fans, Speaker Pelosi spent tons of their tax money, not on the Peoples Business but on frivolous conspiracy theories.

                They watched as our mainstream media trotted out their “experts” (Rachel Maddow and etc), telling us how President Trump was going down.

                Those same fans of President Trump have not gone away, the Dems led by Speaker Pelosi today find themselves with an empty bag and at least half an electorate out for blood.

                Where are our stimulus checks Madam Speaker? Had she pushed for those checks instead of this D.O.A. impeachment of an ousted President Trump, the electorate might have been more forgiving.

                Frankly, I am not sure if Speaker Pelosi does not get it or just does not care. I won’t be surprised if her gang finds more reasons to go after President Trump moving forward.

                • #404114
                  MizzGrizz
                  Participant
                  • Total Posts: 3,152

                  @chknltl,I too was happy when Fancy first took over as Madam Speaker,because I too was fool enough to think she would go after George for war crimes,as she should have.

                  But she did not,and she not only lost my support because of it forever but it was the beginning of a serious reconsidering of all I had thought lifelong about American politics.That reconsidering eventually led up,as it did for so many of you,to Demexit.

    • #403857
      Cold Mountain Trail
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 12,044

      @mizzgrizz


      @chknltl

      He signed the bill to kill it, but that was only because it was already dead.  Activism killed it.  They didn’t have the votes after years of trying.

      “If you read the headlines, Donald Trump’s election has killed the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP). The headlines have it wrong.  Donald Trump didn’t kill the TPP. Assuming we see the fight through to the bitter end, it’s the cross-border, cross-sector, progressive “movement of movements” that will have defeated the TPP.

      Together, globally-coordinated progressive coalitions from a host of different countries developed and publicized analyses of the TPP, pushing out leaked texts when our governments refused to tell us what they were proposing….to inform the most active elements of the public about the power grab underway… In the U.S…more than 2,000 organizations had signed statements opposing “fast track” for the TPP by April 2015… before Trump had even announced his candidacy.  An incredibly diverse array of organizations and individual activists were constantly sharing information and strategically coordinating their efforts to pressure key elected officials, such that we built a majority of opposition to the TPP in Congress...

      Check the timeline here. The TPP negotiations concluded in October 2015. The pact could have…been approved by Congress as early as February 2016 if the votes were there to pass it. Progressives’ work ensured the votes weren’t there…”

      https://medium.com/@citizenstrade/no-trump-didnt-kill-the-tpp-progressives-did-884b534542d#.f5tgiojp5

       

      ‘Good News,’ Says Sanders, as McConnell Signals No Lame-Duck Vote on TPP

      “Indeed, added Sanders: “This treaty is opposed by every trade union in the country and virtually the entire grassroots base of the Democratic Party. In my view, it is now time for the leadership of the Democratic Party in the Senate and the House to go on the record in opposition to holding a vote on this job-killing trade deal during the lame-duck session of Congress and beyond.”

      To that end, Reuters notes that earlier this month, Republican House Speaker Paul Ryan “said he saw no point in bringing up the TPP deal for a vote in any ‘lame duck’ session of Congress later this year because ‘we don’t have the votes.'””

      https://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/08/26/good-news-says-sanders-mcconnell-signals-no-lame-duck-vote-tpp

       

      But what the Don did do was “renegotiate NAFTA” (another of his campaign promises), and fold some provisions from TPP into that.

      The Verdict On Trump Trade Policy, Part 1: Fixing NAFTA

      “Yes, the Trump administration did renegotiate the North American Free Trade Agreement and managed to conclude and pass a successor agreement, the USMCA. How big a change was that? Did it solve the problems critics had identified? Was it any good? Small, no, and no.

      Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-IA), Chairman of the Senate Finance Committee that oversees trade agreements, had commented, after the initial USMCA negotiation, “You know 95 percent of what we will be voting on is the same as NAFTA.” Further, many of the more significant updates to North American trade rules that showed up in the USMCA were lifted from the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP)…  President Trump pulled the United States from the TPP almost immediately, though the other countries went ahead with it. So it’s very hard to argue that USMCA was a major change. Or that it will cure previously-alleged ills.”

      https://www.forbes.com/sites/phillevy/2020/08/09/the-verdict-on-trump-trade-policy-part-1-fixing-nafta/?sh=64d811ec5a2f

       

      Trump wanted a quick win after entering office, not a long, noisy fight bringing immediate bad PR.  Rather than have the fight, he killed TPP but put some of its provisions into his renegotiated NAFTA bill, USMCA, thereby fulfilling two of his campaign promises with one stone.

      He’s smart enough to know that most voters never read the fine print, just the headlines.

      https://usmca.com/

       

       

      • #403876
        chknltl
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,287

        Thank you for this @coldmountaintrail

        All this time I figured Trump killed it by not signing it. I just figured that he did this because President Obama wanted the TPP.  That was IMO reason enough for Pres Trump to make hay out of stopping it.

        I did not know that Progressives were making themselves felt across our planet like this. My hat is off to them.

        • #403882
          Cold Mountain Trail
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 12,044

          Thanks @chknltl

          People *can* have impact when they pick their battles, leaders and allies wisely rather than throwing up their hands in defeat

        • #404117
          MizzGrizz
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 3,152

          @coldmountaintrail.You educated me on TPP as well,though I was aware that Trump had taken parts of it and used it for his supposedly renegotiated NAFTA.

          Joe will likely do what his predecessor did—not exactly resurrect the whole treaty,as it has a very bad odor in toto,but fold bits of it into other trade treaties or legislation here and there.Easier to fool people that way.

    • #403888
      Cold Mountain Trail
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 12,044

      Trump Trade Position Is Opposite Of What People Think It Is

      One of Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump’s stronger economic appeals to working-class voters is his position on trade. Trump understands that people are upset that “trade” deals have moved so many jobs out of the country and he offers solutions that sound like he is saying he will bring the jobs back so wages can start going up again.

      But a deeper look at what he is really saying might not be so appealing to voters.

      Trump says the U.S. is not “competitive” with other countries. He has said repeatedly we need to lower American wages, taxes and regulations to the point where we can be “competitive” with Mexico and China. In other words, he is saying that business won’t send jobs out of the country if we can make wages low enough here.

      Trump even has a plan to accomplish this. He has said the way to make U.S. wages “competitive” is to pit states against each other…

      He said U.S. automakers could shift production away from Michigan to communities where autoworkers would make less. “You can go to different parts of the United States and then ultimately you’d do full-circle — you’ll come back to Michigan because those guys are going to want their jobs back even if it is less,” Trump said. “We can do the rotation in the United States — it doesn’t have to be in Mexico.”

      He said that after Michigan “loses a couple of plants — all of sudden you’ll make good deals in your own area…”

      https://ourfuture.org/20160809/trump-trade-position-is-opposite-of-what-people-think-it-is

       

      Donald Trump: ‘Having a low minimum wage is not a bad thing for this country’

      “Now, I want to create jobs so that you don’t have to worry about the minimum wage, you’re doing a great job, and you’re making much more than the minimum wage,” he said via phone on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe.” “But I think having a low minimum wage is not a bad thing for this country.

      Mr. Trump had been asked how he would address flat wages in the country and if he thought the minimum wage should be raised across the board.

      “It’s such a nasty question because the answer has to be nasty,” Mr. Trump said. “You know, we’re in a global economy now. It used to be people would leave New York state and companies would leave New York state or leave another state and go to Florida, go to Texas, go to wherever they go because the wages … you know, all sorts of different things.”

      “Well now, it’s not leaving New York or New Jersey or wherever they may be leaving — now they’re leaving the United States, and they’re going to other countries because they’re competing for low taxes and they’re competing for low wages and they’re competing for all sorts of things,” he continued. “And you know, one of the things that’s happening is China, with what they’re doing with their currency with the devaluations. They’re making it very, very difficult for companies to compete.”

      “So what’s happening now is people are shopping, companies are shopping. I see companies where they have international financiers — people that live in London, they’re not even citizens of the United States,” he said. “They’re shopping their companies to [other] places, and we can’t have a situation where our labor is so much more expensive than other countries that we can no longer compete.

      Mr. Trump said if he wins the White House, he would “make us so competitive as a country…”

      https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/aug/20/donald-trump-having-low-minimum-wage-not-bad-thing/

       

      are we competitive yet?

      • #403892
        chknltl
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,287

        I did not know that this was POTUS nominee Trump’s solution to bringing jobs back to the U.S..

        Literally the plan is a race to the bottom! Competing in wages with Mexico and China is a horrible idea!

        Aren’t most of the products sold here by Wal-Mart built in China by workers who can hardly afford to buy those same products? Was that the plan for the US??? Am I to believe that the plan was to lower wages to the point where we could not afford to purchase the products we make and in so doing THAT would bring jobs back?

        I’ve friends who think 15$ per hr. minimum wage is a bad idea. So far we have agreed to disagree. I will be carefully rereading what you post here in order to add fuel to my arguments.

    • #404182
      B Calm
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,063

      knows President Bone Spurs was guilty!

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