Probably you folks already knew that the Minsk Agreement was a sham.

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    • #502095
      chknltl
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    • #502100
      jbnw
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      • Total Posts: 9,924

      Poroshenko (President of Ukraine before Zelensky) admitted it a couple of months ago, and now these two.

      But it was pretty obvious as soon as it was signed as the Day 1 step was never taken:

      Launch a dialogue, on day 1 of the withdrawal on modalities of local elections in accordance
      with Ukrainian legislation and the Law of Ukraine “On interim local self-government order in
      certain areas of the Donetsk and Lugansk regions” as well as on the future regime of these
      areas based on this Law.
      Adopt promptly, by no later than 30 days after the date of signing of the document a
      resolution of the Parliament of Ukraine specifying the area enjoying the special regime, under
      the Law of Ukraine On interim local self-government order in certain areas of the Donetsk and
      Lugansk regions”, based on the line of the Minsk Memorandum of September 19, 2014.

      It’s straight from the UN at https://peacemaker.un.org/sites/peacemaker.un.org/files/UA_150212_MinskAgreement_en.pdf so it’s about as authoritative as you can get.

      • #502122
        Jim Lane
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,095

        @jbnw

        The UN document – https://peacemaker.un.org/sites/peacemaker.un.org/files/UA_150212_MinskAgreement_en.pdf – simply recites the provisions of Minsk II. It says nothing about why the process broke down. As is common in such cases, each side blames the other.

        And, of course, no discussion of international agreements on this subject can be complete without including the earlier Budapest Memorandum (link). Ukraine agreed to give up all the nuclear weapons in its possession, which it did, and to join the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, which it did. In return, Russia agreed to respect Ukraine’s independence and sovereignty in its then-existing borders (including the Crimea) and to refrain from the threat or the use of force against Ukraine. Russia has blatantly violated the promises it made in 1994. In 2014, before even Minsk I was signed, Russia’s armed forces invaded Ukraine and occupied the Crimea. Russia continues its illegal military occupation to this day.

         

        • #502126
          Yanath
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          when the US destroyed Ukrainian sovereignty in 2014, and Ukraine was offered up as a proxy for US hybrid warfare against Russia. Russia was not going to allow NATO to deprive it of one of its most important military assets in Crimea. The US “rules based international order”, along with its aggressive policies of encirclement and containment of Russia and China, make it clear that the only thing that matters in international affairs anymore, is raw power.

          • #502141
            Jim Lane
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 1,095

            @yanath

            I didn’t know that you had been granted the power to unilaterally nullify treaties signed by sovereign states. I guess I missed the news story.

            Okay, sarcasm aside, the underlying question is whether treaties mean anything. Is it your position that a country that enters into a treaty and later changes its mind can thereby renege on its agreement? If a treaty is to remain in effect only as long as each participant finds it advantageous, then there’s no point to signing a treaty.

            • #502157
              Yanath
              Participant
              • Total Posts: 2,958

              Tell that to your empire, who has never honored an agreement in its entire existence. That propensity is the root of the violence in Ukraine, and indeed, probably the cause of most of the wars currently being fought in the world. Treaties and international law mean nothing, as long as there is a criminal empire raging throughout the world. My “appointment” has absolutely nothing to do with it.

              • #502172
                Jim Lane
                Participant
                • Total Posts: 1,095

                @yanath

                I have said on JPR that George W. Bush, who launched an aggressive war against Iraq, and Vladimir Putin, who launched an aggressive war against Ukraine, are both war criminals under the Nuremberg Principles. Do you agree with that statement?

                I’ll add, in case there’s any doubt, that even without regard to international law, both of these invasions were wrongful acts. Do you agree with that statement?

                As for telling it to “my” empire, well, yeah, I did. In February of 2003, when it was clear that Bush was contemplating his war crime, I joined millions of other people, here and abroad, in demonstrating in opposition to any invasion. I also voted against Bush in each of his campaigns (the general elections of 2000 and 2004). My only regret is that we failed to stop Bush’s imperialism.

                • #502264
                  closeupready
                  Participant
                  • Total Posts: 3,805

                  you did it because you could afford to do so, and you had the opportunity.

                  Did you believe in it, however?

                  Given how frequently you impugn JPR and its members on flimsy or zero basis, I’d have to doubt your sincerity, as a matter of presumption of guilt (I can do that, I’m not a court of law).

                  In addition, hypocrites who successfully peddle (to simple people) the fiction that they are ethical and committed are people who can turn that success into material, career rewards of all kinds. You regularly accuse JPR and its members of being hypocrites, so I’d point at you and accuse you likewise here, if I were so inclined. “Physician, heal thyself” is always a good way of doing that.

                  The opinions and personal views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and should never be taken seriously.

                • #502274
                  chknltl
                  Participant
                  • Total Posts: 1,998

                  Regarding your first statement that both President Bush and President Putin are war criminals:

                  You work as a lawyer, you further know that the U.S. is, (supposed to be), a nation of laws.

                  As much as some of us believe otherwise, I do not think that we have even a single member at JPR who is Judge, Jury and Executioner.

                  Each of us have certain outcomes we prefer but as you know, every defendant deserves his or her day(s) in court.

                  For that very reason I was bitterly disappointed when as her first act as Madam Speaker, Nancy Pelosi took impeachment off the table.

                  IMHO, the entire world needed to see that the U.S. could investigate potential crimes of any of it’s citizens, including a sitting President.

                  For me, yours is a valued opinion, often well researched but an opinion none the less.

                  I find myself in great company when I get to read both opinions I disagree with as well as those I agree with.

                  As an added bonus, I learn new things around here all the time!

                  Furthermore, a tip of my hat to you for actively protesting President Bush jr’s sending our troops back to war in Iraq.

    • #502115
      mrdmk
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,520

      Here is the real case, the Russians had nothing to do with either Minsk I or Minsk II. The Russians supported the agreement, that is it. The Minsk Agreements were signed by Ukraine, France, and Germany. In fact, it is the Ukrainians who lied to themselves. Further, it was the French and Germans who lied to the world and to themselves.

      So to quote a famous movie, “Who is more foolish? The fool or the fool who follows him?”

      If you cannot dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit WC Fields

      Warning DO NOT CLICK HERE!
    • #502159
      chknltl
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,998

      @Jim Lane

      @yanath


      @jbnw

      No, this is not a treaty but an archive of discussions that went on between Priemier Gorbachev and his Western counterparts, President Bush sr. and associates.

      Key here is the West’s assurances that it would respect Russian safety by not expanding NATO into the old Warsaw Pact countries regardless of how things went within the collapsing Soviet Union.

      It is my interpretation that Gorbechev sought something similar to our own Monroe Doctrine here.

      The U.S. had a history of no tolerance to a foreign potential nuclear adversary in the Western Hemisphere.

      I believe Gorbachev wanted a similar buffer zone for Russia.

      Yes, this is lengthy, but IMHO quite germaine to the OP and especially to the thread’s discussion .

      https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

      • #502180
        Mr. Mickeys Mom
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 8,352

        That was a trip back in time, and there is a extremely need for discussion on this in te floors of Congress. Too bad they don’t respond to things like that anymore, cause they’re manipulated little puppets.

        Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

        • #502189
          chknltl
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 1,998

          But it is quite long. Fascinating but long.

          Maybe I should send the link off to Jimmy Dore. Maybe he or his his writers might find something useful from it.

          Edited to add: It doesn’t appear to be a subject suitable for Jimmy Dore.

          So I sent the link off to a different show, one where the host is definitely anti-war: The Tulsi Gabbard Show.

          • #502191
            Mr. Mickeys Mom
            Moderator
            • Total Posts: 8,352

            Tulsi AND Jimmy Dore should be on the same page of knowing that timeline of history. But, this in itself could also be an OP, me thinks.

            Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

            • #502226
              chknltl
              Participant
              • Total Posts: 1,998

              …maybe it got to Kim Iversen as well but not sure if YouTube deleted it as quickly as I sent it to her.

              Some of my words got posted but not all of them nor could I reread the link I added.

              I kept getting “401 ERROR” whenever I tried rereading my entire post to Mrs Iversen.

              ETA: I tried postinging to Sen. Rand Paul but his E-mail Me page refused to accept my E-mail address as authentic.

              It probably wouldn’t have mattered anyway because at the bottom of his page was a small disclaimer stating that the page does not accept attachments.

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