RFK's Remarks to the Cleveland City Club, April 5, 1968…

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    • #323228
      Mr. Mickeys Mom
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 5,085

      Read the entire speech…. please….     Source: JFK Library

      The following speech was transcribed from a news release version, which is located in the Speech Files of the Robert F. Kennedy Senate Papers at the Kennedy Library. For more information please contact Kennedy.Library@nara.gov or 617.514.1629

      This is a time of shame and sorrow. It is not a day for politics. I have saved this one opportunity to speak briefly to you about this mindless menace of violence in America which again stains our land and every one of our lives.

      It is not the concern of any one race. The victims of the violence are black and white, rich and poor, young and old, famous and unknown. They are, most important of all, human beings whom other human beings loved and needed. No one – no matter where he lives or what he does – can be certain who will suffer from some senseless act of bloodshed. And yet it goes on and on.

      Why? What has violence ever accomplished? What has it ever created? No martyr’s cause has ever been stilled by his assassin’s bullet.

      No wrongs have ever been righted by riots and civil disorders. A sniper is only a coward, not a hero; and an uncontrolled, uncontrollable mob is only the voice of madness, not the voice of the people.

      Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

    • #323229
      PolecatHollerer
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,323

      .

      If you give a man enough rope, it will be six inches too short. This is not the nature of rope- it is the nature of man.

    • #323236
      Voltairine
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,997

      That’s how you see our children?

      How about uncontrolled breathing! How about taking off your suffocating knee from our throats…

      How about uncontrolled love and solidarity?

      Aloha!

      • #323239
        Mr. Mickeys Mom
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 5,085

        That is what it is called sometimes… especially in 1968…

        1. A large and often disorderly crowd. See Synonyms at crowd1.
        2. The mass of common people; the populace.
        3. often Mob Informal A criminal organization, especially the Mafia operating in the United States.
        4. An indiscriminate or loosely associated group of things: a mob of boats in the harbor.
        5. Australian A flock or herd of animals.

        I assume you are hearing RFK’s words, not just reading them to associate a mob of people as a criminal organization. I can tell you as a 66 year old that in 1968, typical interpretations was what I just said it was.

        Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

        • #323247
          Voltairine
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 1,997

          Meaning is perfectly clear from the context:

          No wrongs have ever been righted by riots and civil disorders. A sniper is only a coward, not a hero; and an uncontrolled, uncontrollable mob is only the voice of madness, not the voice of the people.

          When Chauvinist violence has it’s knee on our throat, suffocating, those who preach control are those standing by and preventing that “uncontrollable mob”, the “voice of madness” do  what normal people in normal circumstances would do: run to help and physically push the kneeling choker aside.

          That’s what you are preaching with your veiled words. Standing aside, staying under your control, when your thugs are killing us.

          Aloha!

          • #323304
            ArtfromArk
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 1,347

            You come on here, taunt long-time posters, pretend you are some sort of bipolar politico.

             

            Here’s RFK’s ENTIRE speech

             

            This is a time of shame and sorrow. It is not a day for politics. I have saved this one opportunity to speak briefly to you about this mindless menace of violence in America which again stains our land and every one of our lives.

            It is not the concern of any one race. The victims of the violence are black and white, rich and poor, young and old, famous and unknown. They are, most important of all, human beings whom other human beings loved and needed. No one – no matter where he lives or what he does – can be certain who will suffer from some senseless act of bloodshed. And yet it goes on and on.

            Why? What has violence ever accomplished? What has it ever created? No martyr’s cause has ever been stilled by his assassin’s bullet.

            No wrongs have ever been righted by riots and civil disorders. A sniper is only a coward, not a hero; and an uncontrolled, uncontrollable mob is only the voice of madness, not the voice of the people.

            Whenever any American’s life is taken by another American unnecessarily – whether it is done in the name of the law or in the defiance of law, by one man or a gang, in cold blood or in passion, in an attack of violence or in response to violence – whenever we tear at the fabric of life which another man has painfully and clumsily woven for himself and his children, the whole nation is degraded.

            “Among free men,” said Abraham Lincoln, “there can be no successful appeal from the ballot to the bullet; and those who take such appeal are sure to lose their cause and pay the costs.”

            Yet we seemingly tolerate a rising level of violence that ignores our common humanity and our claims to civilization alike. We calmly accept newspaper reports of civilian slaughter in far off lands. We glorify killing on movie and television screens and call it entertainment. We make it easy for men of all shades of sanity to acquire weapons and ammunition they desire.

            Too often we honor swagger and bluster and the wielders of force; too often we excuse those who are willing to build their own lives on the shattered dreams of others. Some Americans who preach nonviolence abroad fail to practice it here at home. Some who accuse others of inciting riots have by their own conduct invited them.

            Some looks for scapegoats, others look for conspiracies, but this much is clear; violence breeds violence, repression brings retaliation, and only a cleaning of our whole society can remove this sickness from our soul.

            For there is another kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions; indifference and inaction and slow decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. This is a slow destruction of a child by hunger, and schools without books and homes without heat in the winter.

            This is the breaking of a man’s spirit by denying him the chance to stand as a father and as a man among other men. And this too afflicts us all. I have not come here to propose a set of specific remedies nor is there a single set. For a broad and adequate outline we know what must be done. When you teach a man to hate and fear his brother, when you teach that he is a lesser man because of his color or his beliefs or the policies he pursues, when you teach that those who differ from you threaten your freedom or your job or your family, then you also learn to confront others not as fellow citizens but as enemies – to be met not with cooperation but with conquest, to be subjugated and mastered.

            We learn, at the last, to look at our brothers as aliens, men with whom we share a city, but not a community, men bound to us in common dwelling, but not in common effort. We learn to share only a common fear – only a common desire to retreat from each other – only a common impulse to meet disagreement with force. For all this there are no final answers.

            Yet we know what we must do. It is to achieve true justice among our fellow citizens. The question is now what programs we should seek to enact. The question is whether we can find in our own midst and in our own hearts that leadership of human purpose that will recognize the terrible truths of our existence.

            We must admit the vanity of our false distinctions among men and learn to find our own advancement in the search for the advancement of all. We must admit in ourselves that our own children’s future cannot be built on the misfortunes of others. We must recognize that this short life can neither be ennobled or enriched by hatred or revenge.

            Our lives on this planet are too short and the work to be done too great to let this spirit flourish any longer in our land. Of course we cannot vanish it with a program, nor with a resolution.

            But we can perhaps remember – even if only for a time – that those who live with us are our brothers, that they share with us the same short movement of life, that they seek – as we do – nothing but the chance to live out their lives in purpose and happiness, winning what satisfaction and fulfillment they can.

            Surely this bond of common faith, this bond of common goal, can begin to teach us something. Surely we can learn, at least, to look at those around us as fellow men and surely we can begin to work a little harder to bind up the wounds among us and to become in our hearts brothers and countrymen once again.

            “There’s a new spirit abroad in the land. The old days of ‘grab and greed’ are on their way out. We’re beginning to think of what we owe the other fellow, not just what we’re compelled to give him. The time’s coming… when we shan’t be able to fill our bellies in comfort while others go hungry, sleep in warm beds while others shiver in the cold.... And God willing, we’ll live to see that day…” Basil Rathbone,"Sherlock Holmes Faces Death" (Universal 1943)

            • #323317
              Mr. Mickeys Mom
              Moderator
              • Total Posts: 5,085

              … and, unless I’m unaware of the copyright status of this speech, it’s best to leave the link to the entire speech from the Kennedy library. I don’t want us to get in trouble for any copyright, so please – go back and portion the emphasis of what you are saying. You don’t expect people who don’t pay attention to pay any MORE attention with pointing it out to them, do you?

              I’ll wait for you to edit, @artfromark (or I’ll have to), okay?

              MMM 🙂

              Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

              • #323324
                ArtfromArk
                Participant
                • Total Posts: 1,347

                Bobby Kennedy was a US Senator  and a presidential candidate at the time of this speech, so there is no problem with posting his speech in its entirety.

                “There’s a new spirit abroad in the land. The old days of ‘grab and greed’ are on their way out. We’re beginning to think of what we owe the other fellow, not just what we’re compelled to give him. The time’s coming… when we shan’t be able to fill our bellies in comfort while others go hungry, sleep in warm beds while others shiver in the cold.... And God willing, we’ll live to see that day…” Basil Rathbone,"Sherlock Holmes Faces Death" (Universal 1943)

                • #323328
                  Mr. Mickeys Mom
                  Moderator
                  • Total Posts: 5,085

                  @sffh @deadpool @landofenchantment

                  Your advice of  copyright on this speech? I’ll leave it meanwhile…

                  Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

                  • #323336
                    ArtfromArk
                    Participant
                    • Total Posts: 1,347

                    when a there is a for-profit intermediary between the politician and the poster. For example, posting a CBS News report of Kennedy’s speech. But posting Kennedy’s speech as it was, without a 3rd party intermediary, is considered public domain. At least, that is my understanding.

                    “There’s a new spirit abroad in the land. The old days of ‘grab and greed’ are on their way out. We’re beginning to think of what we owe the other fellow, not just what we’re compelled to give him. The time’s coming… when we shan’t be able to fill our bellies in comfort while others go hungry, sleep in warm beds while others shiver in the cold.... And God willing, we’ll live to see that day…” Basil Rathbone,"Sherlock Holmes Faces Death" (Universal 1943)

                  • #323359
                    ArtfromArk
                    Participant
                    • Total Posts: 1,347

                    I see no mention of copyright. And I don’t think the Library would object to the publication of RFK’s speeches in full. After all, the purpose of the Library is to further the ideals of the Kennedys, is it not?  https://www.jfklibrary.org/learn/about-jfk/the-kennedy-family/robert-f-kennedy/robert-f-kennedy-speeches/remarks-to-the-cleveland-city-club-april-5-1968

                    “There’s a new spirit abroad in the land. The old days of ‘grab and greed’ are on their way out. We’re beginning to think of what we owe the other fellow, not just what we’re compelled to give him. The time’s coming… when we shan’t be able to fill our bellies in comfort while others go hungry, sleep in warm beds while others shiver in the cold.... And God willing, we’ll live to see that day…” Basil Rathbone,"Sherlock Holmes Faces Death" (Universal 1943)

          • #323319
            Mr. Mickeys Mom
            Moderator
            • Total Posts: 5,085

            I’m not sure of your age, but it’s obvious from Robert Kennedy’s speech that he was addressing the reaction to the extreme times, including the response of the people to the times.  You fail to understand this speech, which makes you take it out of context. Dog knows who you think you’re calling out when you said –That’s what you are preaching with your veiled words. Standing aside, staying under your control, when your thugs are killing us…

            Read history for understanding the turbulent 1960’s and in particular, the year 1968 because you’re stumbling over the meaning and it shows.

            Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

            • #323338
              Voltairine
              Participant
              • Total Posts: 1,997

              FYI, I was born in 1965, my father was heavily involved with solidarity with Vietnam and protesting against USA imperialism. I didn’t quite make it into the Boomer generation, became gen-X instead.

              Can you give direct answer to direct question? Do you advice and demand people to just stand aside and watch, when one of them is being choked, beaten, etc. by cops, as a matter of principle? Do you still categorically swear by consent to the state monopoly of violence? Both in actual situations where matters of life and death can depend from whether you consent or take the path of “civil disorder” in the words of Bobby, try to push aside or otherwise stop a cop who is choking a fellow man?

              No, Bobby does not answer this question, and can’t answer it for anybody else. He’s dead now, just another victim of systemic violence among millions.

              It’s a very hard question, do you consent to the monopoly of systemic violence or do you withdraw your consent and obedience, and choose your actions and tactics very carefully to cause least harm whether by action or inaction, depending on situation?

              Do you understand the question and why it is being asked, from each of us? Not to destroy human society, but to save what we can save from what is left of it from the self-destructive forces of the system, ecological, economical and political forces which all rely on the state monopoly of violence and consent to it to carry out the destruction.

              On my part, I used to be naive and believe in the system, that it could be changed from inside, by voting. Then I became a farther of two beautiful sons, looked very carefully at the world and how it really is, and realized that i can’t trust this system to give our children and their children a fair chance to live a good human life. I withdrew my consent and became anarchist because that’s how I felt my parental responsibility. Our children are now telling us, their parents, the system: Stop killing us! We can’t breath! Stop choking us!

              “Stand aside and vote”, is that all you have to respond to them?

              No, withdrawing my consent does not equal preaching violent revolution, or refusing solidarity in situations where armed resistance in self-defense is already the reality on ground, like in Rojava. There is multitude of tactics and constant innovation of new ways of resistance. The most important work is on the constructive and creative side, imagining, discussing and actualizing ways to build global society that is not anymore based on systemic violence, but sustainability, fairness and world peace. Thinking very carefully, as well as we can, about what concrete steps could lead there with least casualties and suffering.

              Aloha!

              • #323410
                So Far From Heaven
                Keymaster
                • Total Posts: 7,939

                There is one huge difference between this speech and what you seem to think it says @voltairine

                It says, without ambiguity, that mob violence in itself is just as hurtful as that which the mob is acting against. Which is absolutely true.

                If you want to get the yoke off your neck, then you eliminate the yoke and those who use it. but if you use violence as the means to that end, you just create a new group wielding a new yoke.

                It is that simple and it is absolutely true. He (Bobby) had no problems with huge crowds (mobs) protesting against something, as long as they did so peacefully. His problem was when those mobs became rioting mobs.

                Is this your interpretation of this idea in his speech @artfromark and @mrmickeysmom ?

                I can’t remember a single time our protests during the Vietnam fiasco ever worked when the protest became a rioting mob. The mass destruction and lawlessness always worked against us. And gave us today’s policing and laws that stifle us no end.

                Violence ended slavery and replaced it with segregation and hatred on both parts that was now hidden until it erupted into more violence and hatred. And this issue isn’t just about racial hatreds being black against white, either. It goes brown against white like there’s no tomorrow. You don’t suppose those idiots wanting a southern wall are putting the wall up to keep people out for any other reason, do you?

                • #323414
                  ArtfromArk
                  Participant
                  • Total Posts: 1,347

                  @sffh

                  “There’s a new spirit abroad in the land. The old days of ‘grab and greed’ are on their way out. We’re beginning to think of what we owe the other fellow, not just what we’re compelled to give him. The time’s coming… when we shan’t be able to fill our bellies in comfort while others go hungry, sleep in warm beds while others shiver in the cold.... And God willing, we’ll live to see that day…” Basil Rathbone,"Sherlock Holmes Faces Death" (Universal 1943)

                  • #323415
                    So Far From Heaven
                    Keymaster
                    • Total Posts: 7,939

                    @artfromark ?

                    As you can see, I’m still kicking…..

                    • #323418
                      ArtfromArk
                      Participant
                      • Total Posts: 1,347

                      But, damn, I’m getting tired of always hearing about the “new type of corona virus” on the news. Mind you, I still wear a mask when I go into a store or bank, but I hate to think that this will be the “new normal” where everyone thinks they can get a fatal disease merely by being in semi-close contact with others.

                      “There’s a new spirit abroad in the land. The old days of ‘grab and greed’ are on their way out. We’re beginning to think of what we owe the other fellow, not just what we’re compelled to give him. The time’s coming… when we shan’t be able to fill our bellies in comfort while others go hungry, sleep in warm beds while others shiver in the cold.... And God willing, we’ll live to see that day…” Basil Rathbone,"Sherlock Holmes Faces Death" (Universal 1943)

                      • #323422
                        So Far From Heaven
                        Keymaster
                        • Total Posts: 7,939

                        @artfromark

                        But I’m fully compromised, so guess what?

                        LoE laid out the law. No going into a business unless absolutely necessary. Must keep at least ten (10 not 6) foot separation and wear N95 mask and all that stuff. And have sanitizer on hand at all times I’m out.

                        Until further notice from her. Not the doctors, her.

                      • #323428
                        ArtfromArk
                        Participant
                        • Total Posts: 1,347

                        A *little* different. My “state” (prefecture) of 3 million people hasn’t had any new cases for two weeks. I don’t wear them outside anymore, just inside. But

                        the warm weather is making breathing through the masks more difficult even inside.

                        “There’s a new spirit abroad in the land. The old days of ‘grab and greed’ are on their way out. We’re beginning to think of what we owe the other fellow, not just what we’re compelled to give him. The time’s coming… when we shan’t be able to fill our bellies in comfort while others go hungry, sleep in warm beds while others shiver in the cold.... And God willing, we’ll live to see that day…” Basil Rathbone,"Sherlock Holmes Faces Death" (Universal 1943)

                • #323561
                  Mr. Mickeys Mom
                  Moderator
                  • Total Posts: 5,085

                  No truer words were ever written, @sffh ….

                  I’ll have to address your other posts herein. Geez…. I leave for a few hours and my thread blew up.oh no omg GIF by Looney Tunes

                  Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

    • #323369
      Mr. Mickeys Mom
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 5,085

      Here’s some of your nonsense response to the RFK speech, and its message, which seems to be escaping your understanding…

      Can you give direct answer to direct question? Do you advice and demand people to just stand aside and watch, when one of them is being choked, beaten, etc. by cops, as a matter of principle? Do you still categorically swear by consent to the state monopoly of violence? Both in actual situations where matters of life and death can depend from whether you consent or take the path of “civil disorder” in the words of Bobby, try to push aside or otherwise stop a cop who is choking a fellow man?

      Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

      • #323384
        Voltairine
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,997

        I can’t respond to Kennedy speech, I can’t speak with Kennedys – them dead. Hear/Here a song by Dead Kennedys, called Riot:

        “Tomorrow you’re homeless…tonight it’s a BLAST” – Hard to crystallize this situation any better.

        I have nothing else to respond to Kennedys, can’t talk with dead people.

        You are alive, I’m trying reach out have a meaningful and real talk with You, Mom. Not with a regression to 60’s nostalgia, but with you, about the situation and questions we are facing today.

        Aloha!

        • #323395
          Mr. Mickeys Mom
          Moderator
          • Total Posts: 5,085

          Try another post that has to do with rioting, then make it meaningful there, where I’m already engaged, V for Voltarine.

          Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

        • #323417
          So Far From Heaven
          Keymaster
          • Total Posts: 7,939

          that I and Deadpool and Land of Enchantment set for this site @voltairine and give you a warning right here in an active thread.

          If any member espouses the use of violence openly, in any topic or reply to a topic or other member, to be a way to cure any problem, that member will be denied access from that point on.

          That is forbidden.

          Take this as an open warning to every member of this site. I will not countenance the use of violence on my site, and this entire conversation is doing just that.

          Now, just to be fair, I’m calling all admins and mods to my posting of this warning and they can beat the shit outta me if they want to.


          @mrmickeysmom
          @nvwino @ohiobarbarian @janboehmermann @l0onix

          @thompaine
          @punxsutawney @haikugal @landofenchantment @deadpool

          • #323460
            Ohio Barbarian
            Moderator
            • Total Posts: 19,358

            Justifying some violence, maybe, but not calling for it. I’m in the majority of Americans who, according to one poll, think that burning down the police precinct station in Minneapolis was justified. That’s technically pillaging, but the term “violence” is only properly applied when people are victims, not buildings or other inanimate objects. @sffh @voltairine

             

             

            It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

            You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

          • #323582
            Voltairine
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 1,997

            Questioning consent to state monopoly to violence is far from advocating violence. The motivation for the question is preventing violence.

            Which one is more violent situation and outcome:
            a) watching passively murder in progress, when the murderer is wearing a cop uniform?
            b) trying to interfere and prevent the murder with least physical force and harm to anyone?

            It’s a tough question, but IMHO very valid and acute. On my part, I don’t consent to the state monopoly of violence in principle, because that is the philosophical position of anarchism. On practical level I’ve always been advocating against violent revolution and sought ways of as peaceful transition as possible, focusing on thinking and discussing constructive ideas for building alternative, better society that is not based on systemic violence. World peace is my dream and goal, for all our children.

            Nor is DK advocating violence. The song Riot is clearly against violence.

            Aloha!

    • #323421
      So Far From Heaven
      Keymaster
      • Total Posts: 7,939

      @mrmickeysmom .

      I took it upon myself to act like a child, and I may have harmed your incredibly important and wonderfully timely topic.

      My sincere apology.

      • #323570
        Mr. Mickeys Mom
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 5,085

        But, with respect to this thread, I think it started as a way of remembering RFK this day, who died so shortly after Dr. King died, and when reaching out to the recipient of his message, I figured it should include all of us… R E G A R D L E S S   of how that should be interpreted herein. I realize that we are dealing with mega release of our own truths, especially centered in the U.S.  The process of dealing with years of oppression and hate are going to be both painful AND revealing, and if it doesn’t aim itself as purposely being harmful, then releasing that energy we must.

        I don’t blame anyone here for not having the same interpretation of RFK’s speech. They are driven by a different experience, but we boomers are realizing over again that the break-through of fresh ideas was squashed after Jack and Martin and Bobbie and Malcom died. It’s our time to deal with what only got worse since then. Before we shed our mortal shells in this lifetime, I want us to try to have a better understanding of historical obstacles that must fall away, so that all this humanity and compassion has a chance to evolve us to a better state, regardless of our generation.

        Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

        • #323586
          Voltairine
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 1,997

          for trying to continue discussion started in other thread in this thread, intention of which I may have misinterpreted.

          Before we shed our mortal shells in this lifetime, I want us to try to have a better understanding of historical obstacles that must fall away, so that all this humanity and compassion has a chance to evolve us to a better state, regardless of our generation.

          Thank You.

          Aloha!

          • #323634
            Mr. Mickeys Mom
            Moderator
            • Total Posts: 5,085

            Here’s one for you… It ain’t DKs, but it came out in 1968… a most pivotal year that directly connects to you and me, kid…

            Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

            • #323702
              ArtfromArk
              Participant
              • Total Posts: 1,347

              Thanks for posting this

              “There’s a new spirit abroad in the land. The old days of ‘grab and greed’ are on their way out. We’re beginning to think of what we owe the other fellow, not just what we’re compelled to give him. The time’s coming… when we shan’t be able to fill our bellies in comfort while others go hungry, sleep in warm beds while others shiver in the cold.... And God willing, we’ll live to see that day…” Basil Rathbone,"Sherlock Holmes Faces Death" (Universal 1943)

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