Home Topics in Depth Education Sad day for public education in the United States!

  • immoderate (252 posts)
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    Sad day for public education in the United States!

    This was posted on Facebook, by a friend whom I used to work with.

    Sad day for public education in the United States!

    The U.S. House of Representatives has introduced Bill 610. This bill will effectively start the school voucher system to be used by children ages 5 to 17, and starts the de-funding process of public schools.

    The bill will eliminate the Elementary and Secondary Education Act (ESSA) of 1965 which is the nation’s educational law and provides equal opportunity in education. It is a comprehensive program that covers programs for struggling learners, AP classes, ESL classes, classes for minorities such as Native Americans, Rural Education, Education for the Homeless, School Safety (Gun-Free schools), Monitoring and Compliance and Federal Accountability Programs.

    The bill also abolishes the Nutritional Act of 2012 (No Hungry Kids Act) which provides nutritional standards in school breakfast and lunch. For our most vulnerable, this may be the ONLY nutritious food they have in a day.

    The bill has no wording whatsoever protecting special needs kids, no mention of IDEA and FAPE.

    Some things the Elementary and Secondary Education Act (ESSA) of 1965 does for Children with Disabilities:

    -ensures access to the general education curriculum
    -ensures access to accommodations on assessments
    -ensures concepts of Universal Design for Learning
    -includes provisions that require local education agencies to provide evidence-based interventions in schools with consistently underperforming subgroups
    -requires states in Title I plans to address how they will improve conditions for learning including reducing incidents of bullying and harassment in schools, overuse of discipline practices and reduce the use of aversive behavioral interventions (such as restraints and seclusion).

    Please call your representative and ask him/her to vote NO on House Bill 610 (HR 610) introduced by three Republican reps.
    Please copy and paste this post (rather than hitting “share”) so it isn’t limited to the friends we have in common. Thanks for advocating on behalf of our nation’s youth.

    —imm :)

    MistaP, liberal at heart, arendt like this

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    • antigop (799 posts)
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      1. this won't be popular, but here goes anyway…

      I have no problem getting rid of AP classes.  I think just line the pockets of the testing service.

      When I went to high school (many, many years ago), we did not have AP classes.

      I went on to get a couple of advanced degrees along with my friends.  One became a lawyer, one a physician, one a PhD in Speech Pathology, one PhD in microbiology, etc.,etc.

      We didn’t need AP classes.

      That being said…I sure as hell don’t want public education destroyed, though.

       

      • immoderate (252 posts)
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        2. I agree with that.

        But that’s a labeling thing. I’m about lots of reforms, however, for this post, it’s about keeping education, (and most other government function :banana: ) public.

        —imm

      • liberal at heart (1088 posts)
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        3. My daughter took AP Biology in high school and I believe it is the reason

        she is majoring in Chemistry now in college; it was fun, challenging, and engaging. For students that can handle the work load, the curricula goes into much more depth than general education curricula and the students are engaged in critical thinking, not just memorizing facts they have been told will be on the test. Not all students can handle AP classes though and I don’t believe that students should be pushed to take them just to make the school look good. My son is autistic. He is very bright but he learns in a different way than AP classes teach so they would not be good for him and he has never taken an AP class.

        • antigop (799 posts)
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          4. I will repeat. AP classes didn't exist when I was in high school.

          We all went on to college and most of us got advanced degrees.

          No need for AP.  AP enriches the pockets of the testing service.

          There is no need for AP classes.

          You will NEVER convince me of the need for them.

          Go watch the documentary “Race to Nowhere”.

           

           

          • liberal at heart (1088 posts)
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            5. Think whatever you want. I really don't care. I am glad my daughter

            had the opportunity to take an AP class and I will always support AP classes, just as I will always support special education. General education is not for everybody. Some people need more help. Some people need an extra challenge. One of the worst things about our public school system is that students are treated like robots; as if they are all the same. They are not all the same. Other countries know this and treat students as individuals. Not the US. We expect all our children to be exactly the same.

            • antigop (799 posts)
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              6. AP classes line the pockets of the AP testing service.

              “Race to Nowhere” shows the damage that AP classes have done to high school kids.

               

              • liberal at heart (1088 posts)
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                7. AP classes could be done without testing services.

                Believe me, my autistic son suffered a lot because school administrators who were being pressured due to Race to the Top and Common Core were pushing him to perform at the same level as his general education classmates. And I always supported my son’s teachers when they were on strike protesting having their pay dependent on students’ standardized test scores. Testing companies have way too much influence on our schools and get a lot of profit doing it. That does not mean that the AP classes themselves are bad. Like I said, you can think whatever you want. I support AP classes, just as I support special education.

                • antigop (799 posts)
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                  8. "Race to Nowhere". nt

                  • liberal at heart (1088 posts)
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                    9. I have seen Race to Nowhere. I have a daughter who is 22 and in college.

                    and a 18 year old autistic son who is in his senior year of high school. You think I don’t keep up with these kinds of documentaries? You think I don’t have first hand knowledge of seeing my kids go through the school system what is going on? You said in an earlier post that I would not change your mind on AP classes. Stop trying to change mine because it is not going to happen.

                    • FanBoy (7985 posts)
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                      10. how do you feel about vouchers

                      • liberal at heart (1088 posts)
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                        13. I hate vouchers. There is a lot about our education system

                        I hate. It was Obama’s Race to the Top and Common Core education policies that made me decide to stop being a Democrat and become an Independent.

                    • antigop (799 posts)
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                      11. heh, heh, it always strikes a nerve when I point out the truth. Never fails.

                      • liberal at heart (1088 posts)
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                        12. very mature. I can tell you are the kind of poster I just need to ignore.

                        Good bye.

                      • antigop (799 posts)
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                        14. I will keep telling the truth. Truth: there is no need for AP. nt

                      • FanBoy (7985 posts)
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                        15. there are better things to plant your flag on. ap classes have existed

                        since 1955 and are not responsible for the decline of education even if the ford foundation did invent them.

                        maybe you don’t need ap, but is it actively pernicious?  if not, fuggedaboutit

                         

                      • antigop (799 posts)
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                        16. yes, they are "actively pernicious".

                        I never claimed they were responsible for the “decline of education”.

                        Go watch “Race to Nowhere”. It shows how “actively pernicious” they are.

                        Truth: We don’t need AP classes.  Before they were available, people still went on to college and graduate programs..

                        Truth: The AP system funnels many $$$$ to the AP testing service.

                         

                         

                      • FanBoy (7985 posts)
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                        17. ap classes have been around since the 50s; the pressure in the current

                        education environment has little to do with AP, and more to do with the constant testing regimen instituted under Bush2 as “no child left behind” and continued under Obama as “race to the top” — both pressure schools and teachers with sanctions which transmits to students — all in the service of charterization of schools.  put the blame where it’s deserved rather than with something that doesn’t even apply to most students and is voluntary.

                        AP is insignificant in the bigger picture:

                        She and her film blame Advanced Placement courses for some of the pressure. She tells interviewers she has heard that some suburban schools are dropping AP, when in fact the program is still growing and even altering courses to give students more of the depth and choice Abeles says they need.

                        Some students and families overdo AP. Abeles is right to point that out. But AP, like the college pressure that concerns her, is concentrated in only a few places. My annual Challenge Index rankings, moving this year from Newsweek to washingtonpost.com, show that only 7 percent of high schools have AP participation rates higher than what would be achieved with only half of juniors and half of seniors taking just one AP course and test a year. The vast majority of high schools do far less.

                        https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/class-struggle/post/why-race-to-nowhere-documentary-is-wrong/2011/04/03/AFBt27VC_blog.html?utm_term=.eaec428fa2a1

                      • antigop (799 posts)
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                        18. No, take a look at the statistics. Take a look at the AP score distributions.

                        The AP company reaps a ton of $$$ in testing fees.

                        Then take a look at how many students actually get college credit.

                        And making your kid sit for (perhaps multiple) 3- hour exams is inhumane.  The pressure is inhumane.  The students get ONE chance to pass (unless they want to sit through another 3-hour test the next year.)

                        If you want to offer high school students the opportunity for advanced classes and get college credit, there are other ways to do it.

                        It’s time for people to wake up and see what AP is all about.

                        I will continue telling the truth about AP.

                         

                         

                      • FanBoy (7985 posts)
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                        21. Every kid in public school now sits for multiple exams, multiple times a

                        year, and they have nothing to do with AP.  A huge fraction of the school year is taken up with prepping for and taking exams, and documentation to get funding and keep out of trouble. Kids in AP are a very small percent of students.

                        I don’t think you are that familiar with what’s happening on the ground since no child left behind.

                      • antigop (799 posts)
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                        23. I am very well of "what is happening on the ground."

                        I will repeat: “ No, take a look at the statistics. Take a look at the AP score distributions.”
                        “Then take a look at how many students actually get college credit.”

                        It NEVER ceases to me amaze me how people defend AP and can’t answer the basic question: “How many students ACTUALLY get college credit?”

                        If you want to offer high school students the opportunity for advanced classes and get college credit, there are other ways to do it.  We don’t need AP. PERIOD.

                        SO, answer the question if you are going to keep defending AP: “How many students ACTUALLY get college credit?”

                        .

                         

                         

                         

                         

                         

                      • FanBoy (7985 posts)
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                        24. i repeat, only a small percentage of kids have any contact with AP.

                        and it’s been in place since the 50’s; ergo, is if anything, a minor consideration in the overall picture.

                        Regardless of what your movie says.

                        “The statistics” need a context to mean anything — as always.

                      • antigop (799 posts)
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                        26. You didn't answer the question.

                        It’s a basic question:
                        How many students ACTUALLY get college credit from AP?”

                        Look at the AP score distributions available for each AP test.  Those are the statistics.

                         

                      • FanBoy (7985 posts)
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                        27. And what percentage of kids have anything to do with AP?

                        The answer to your question is a subset of the answer to my question.

                        About half of HS’s don’t even offer AP classes.

                         

                      • antigop (799 posts)
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                        28. It doesn't matter what percentage of kids have anything to do with AP.

                        You’re sidestepping the question: “Of the kids who DO take AP, how many actually get college credit?”

                        And your own statement: “About half of HS’s don’t even offer AP classes.”

                        The kids that graduate from those high schools that don’t even offer AP classes can STILL go on to college and graduate school. They don’t need AP classes to go to college and graduate school.

                        So thank you for proving my point.

                        Stop diverting from the question: “”Of the kids who DO take AP, how many actually get college credit?””

                         

                         

                      • FanBoy (7985 posts)
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                        30. i'm not sidestepping any question: i'm demonstrating that AP doesn't even

                        touch the majority of students — but Bush’s No Child Left Behind and Obama’s Race to the Top touch every child in the public schools, every teacher, and every school/district  — with multiple mandatory tests, paperwork, sanctions and defunding.  And it starts in GRADE SCHOOL.

                        Thus my advice to look at the big picture.

                      • antigop (799 posts)
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                        33. Of the kids who DO take AP, how many actually get college credit?

                        Of the kids who DO take AP, how many actually get college credit?

                        Answer the question instead of sidestepping it.

                        But you won’t.

                      • Two way street (1861 posts)
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                        19. There is a need for College Credit hours already started in high school

                        at little to no cost to the students.  AP courses are dual credit for high school graduation and college hours toward a degree.  AP courses are very hard and testing is done to tell the student and parents about what is expected and and the exit AP determines the grade and credit for the high school transcript and College transcript.

                        Please feel free to contact your state education agency to get detailed information on what AP does these days. The state agency may refer you to your local school district for specific information.  It is much different from the past, when I went to school.

                        Respectfully yours,

                        Two way street

                        Liberty - The American Revolution
                      • antigop (799 posts)
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                        20. I know all about AP. Look at the statistics. Look at how many students

                        ACTUALLY get college credit.

                        I repeat: “If you want to offer high school students the opportunity for advanced classes and get college credit, there are other ways to do it.”

                        AP  funnels dollars to the AP testing service. The tests are inhumane.

                        We don’t need AP.

                        And if my tax dollars are taken away from their funding, I will be happy.

                         

                      • Two way street (1861 posts)
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                        22. Now your are making sense to me.

                        https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/01/18/dartmouth-end-use-advanced-placement-scores-credit

                        Its been three years since.

                        Here is another way:

                        https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/articles/2015/05/12/how-earning-college-credit-in-high-school-can-slash-undergrad-costs

                        Then again a student might take one AP exam for credit if they are reading the same books in an English class  in both High School English IV and in Freshman College English.  The rules are being revised.

                        Thanks for your reply #20.

                        Liberty - The American Revolution
                      • antigop (799 posts)
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                        25. Now we are getting somewhere…

                        From your USNEWS article:

                        Currently, students who enter Dartmouth with scores of four or five on the AP test, which is based on a five-point scale, can earn exemption from certain courses, placement into higher-level courses, or credit toward their degrees.”

                        So how many students who take an AP test score a “4” or a “5”?  The score distributions are available for every test.  And now it doesn’t matter at Dartmouth whether you score a “4” or a “5” or not.  You won’t get credit toward graduation.

                        Colleges and universities set their own rules as to whether they will accept AP scores or not and what score you need.

                         

                      • antigop (799 posts)
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                        29. and also from the USNEWS article

                        “The credits earned from dual enrollment “tend to be more portable,” meaning that they translate more easily to college credit,..”

                        With AP you get ONE shot at passing the AP test.  You could have broken up with your boyfriend that week.  A family member could have recently passed away or been sick.  You cat could have died. You could be sick that day.

                        The AP tests are taken on ONE day in an inhumane 3-hour exam.

                        Contrast that to dual enrollment — you have a whole semester worth of work that will go into your final grade.  You can bomb the final and still have a chance of passing the class and getting college credit.

                         

                      • FanBoy (7985 posts)
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                        31. Increased mandatory testing due to Bush NCLB and Obama 'Race to the Top'

                        begins in GRADE SCHOOL, and every child in the public schools must take multiple such tests during a school year — with the schools subject to sanctions and diminished funding and in some cases teacher firing/closing, etc,  This regime continues all through the rest of the students’ school years and makes school more uninteresting, less creative, gives teachers less room to teach to the unique situations of the students they have, and a million other issues.

                        AP is nothing in comparison.  Yet that’s where you think the problem lies.

                        Advanced Placement is voluntary for both school districts and students.

                        NCLB/RTTT rules are mandated, and begin the day ANY kid walks into school for the first time.  They pressure districts, administrators, and students.

                        AP isn’t required by the feds, the state, the district or for anyone.  It’s voluntary on every front.  Which is why most students don’t do AP:

                        The number of African-American students with AP potential, based on their PSAT scores, is higher than those who actually take an AP course, the College Board says. Almost 80 percent of African-American students it considers prepared did not take an AP course last year.  Seventy percent of prepared Hispanic students, 62 percent of white students, and 42 percent of Asian students are also not taking recommended AP courses, the report says.

                        http://www.chronicle.com/article/AP-Test-TakersScores/130711/

                        And that’s a percentage of the students with PSAT scores high enough to be considered “prepared” for AP — it’s not a percentage of total (black/Hispanic/white/Asian) students.

                        But every public school student from grade school forward is going to take the Bush/Obama mandated tests, multiple times a year, every year — and no evidence those help improve student preparation for college or life either — lots of evidence to the contrary, actually.

                        You want to obsess about AP, go right ahead.  Meanwhile, public schooling is under attack on every front.  AP is a creature of upper-middle class districts and magnet schools mainly.  If those folks want to voluntarily assume that pressure, I don’t really care much — they’ll survive and so will their schools.

                        Most public school students in the middle on down will not survive what’s happening on the ground today.

                         

                         

                      • antigop (799 posts)
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                        32. My post is about AP. Answer the question I asked about AP!

                        But you won’t.

                        How many students who take AP actually earn college credit?

                        Answer it.  But you won’t.

                         

                      • FanBoy (7985 posts)
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                        34. Since you're so obsessed, why don't you answer it? I research things I think

                        are important.

                        AP is totally VOLUNTARY.  People aren’t forced to do it, unlike many other things in American life.

                        And it’s mostly an upper-middle class thing.

                        Therefore, since it seems to matter to you so much, why don’t you look into it.

                        The supposedly terrible woes of the upper-middle class climbers are not my thing.

                        You don’t seem to be nearly as upset about the fact that EVERY kid in public school (but not in charter schools) is subject to a testing & prep regimen  much more time-consuming, costly, and damaging than any AP regimen — and it’s forced on them and their schools in the interest of privatization of schooling by the investor class.

                         

                      • antigop (799 posts)
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                        35. So you won't answer the question. Thanks for admitting it. nt

                      • FanBoy (7985 posts)
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                        36. lol. and you won't answer mine or even address them. i addressed yours.

                        so bullshit tactic of yours.

                        I don’t *have to* answer your silly question; it’s irrelevant.  this is a discussion, not a quiz show.  I made an argument as to why AP is pretty irrelevant; you didn’t even address it, just kept demanding I answer your stupid question, which I basically did.

                        Only a minority of students even come into contact with AP.  A smaller fraction take the test and a smaller fraction score 4-5.

                        And no one is forced into AP, and it only happens in HS.  And most are upper-middle-class students with plenty of options and resources.

                        Unlike how all students are forced into the testing regimens designed to destroy public schools (and demoralize the middle class on down).

                        Enjoy your solipsism.

                      • antigop (799 posts)
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                        37. Strawman arguments. My post is about AP. I asked a question about AP.

                        And you can’t/won’t answer it.