Sanders After Corbyn: The Jewish Question

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    • #244287
      ZimInSeattle
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      • Total Posts: 1,907

      The hordes of Democratic Party pundits, anti-Trump Republicans, and former national security state functionaries who supply CNN and MSNBC with endless streams of jibber-jabber, along with their counterparts at The New York Times and Washington Post, are pulling out all the stops — trying to convince Democrats that only a “moderate” can defeat Donald Trump.

      They speak for the dead center, and they are dead wrong.

      They do have a ready audience, however; in part because apologists for the Democratic Party have been fairly successful at passing blame for Hillary Clinton’s defeat in 2016 onto everything other than her corporate and Wall Street friendly politics. Running against Bernie Sanders, Clinton’s politics epitomized moderation.

      Alarmingly many potential Democratic voters just don’t get it. The Democratic Party’s leaders and publicists have seen to that; they peddle their snake oil well.

      More: https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/27/sanders-after-corbyn-the-jewish-question/

      "Poverty is the parent of revolution and crime" - Aristotle "The more I see of the moneyed peoples, the more I understand the guillotine" - George Bernard Shaw "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, will make violent revolution inevitable" - JFK #SurviveAndRevolt

    • #244313
      algernon
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      • Total Posts: 539

      I think the Trump/Centrist discussion buzzed off to erewhon in a dirt flinging contest of CT vs CT.

      WTF is counterpunch getting on about “the jewish question”?  These guys have never been on the side of the likes of Bernie Sanders.  They’re CIA.

      • #244361
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 19,954

        @algernon Counterpunch is CIA?

        Thanks for the absurdity. I needed the laugh.

        It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

        You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

        • #244713
          algernon
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          • Total Posts: 539

          Counterpunch gives me the same vibe as the 5 or 6 Trots in black raincoats carrying megaphones and walking in circles chanting slogans coined in the 19th century during the peace and anti-nuke marches I went to back in the ’70s early ’80s.   I asked someone and they said “oh, that’s the Trots”.  Their purpose was to get media attention for being “radical” cliches, which they did.  Not CIA – that was Canada.  But the same thing.

          Google “counterpunch bernie sanders” and figure it out for yourself whether these guys ever contributed anything positive.  Try to name it.  But they sure are critical critics of the left, which never measures up to their standards.

          Me, I don’t like your political philosophy which would prefer Trump to Warren because, you claim, a Warren win would lead to worse than Trump in 4 yrs.  Same type of ridiculous and defeatist posturing as too often met with in Counterpunch.

          • #244764
            Ohio Barbarian
            Moderator
            • Total Posts: 19,954

            @algernon Well, we just disagree on the consequences of a failed Democratic administration. Biden would give Republicans what they want; Warren would try to do some good, but would give up if she didn’t get the votes. Both would be weak. Both would fail, and I believe that would pave the way for real Fascism.

            That’s not defeatist, that’s just taking the long view.  If Bernie wins, neither one of us has to worry about who is right because Bernie will not be a weak President and hopefully will have some successes that make the rise of another Trump, competent or buffoonish, impossible.

            It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

            You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

            • #244822
              algernon
              Participant
              • Total Posts: 539

              @ohiobarbarian

              You don’t think Trump is a “real fascist”?  You think it’s all pretend?

              Your argument lacks substance.  It’s based 100% on your speculations about future events, 2024 and beyond.  Not about the here and now of a fascist, racist, anti-environmental, anti-educational, monster who’s in a position of almost total power.  But worse than that, your argument is designed to turn away Dems who support Warren, who for whatever reason support candidates other than Sanders.  Do you think a Warren supporter, reading the kind of denigration of Warren that goes on at this explicitly Sanders forum (and some no doubt do pass through, pick up messages like yours and pass the gist of it on to their friends), reading comments that actually campaign for Trump against Warren in a 1-on-1 matchup, will be moved to support Sanders if and when Warren (and others) drop out?  Their minds – the policy similarities, the show of unity in spite of differences that Sanders and Warren have shown on a political/reasonable level – will say one thing.  But you argue against that kind of unity, appealing to unprovable  speculations instead and in reaction I can’t help but think their feelings, their sense of being used and abused by people who’re already eager to knife them in the back, will have a very strong countervailing influence.

              That’s so obvious!  After all, do the thing a person is supposed to do in political/ethical dilemmas and mirror the situation, ask yourself how you’d react to a Warren supporter who argued that in a 1-on-1 matchup Sanders vs Trump they’d cheer for Trump because, say, in 4 yrs Sanders would be shut down and in ’24 people would vote for “real fascism”…  whereas Warren would have served 8 yrs and utopia would have resulted.  That argument is just as well founded as yours.

              • #244852
                The Red Menace
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                • Total Posts: 1,097

                Your belief that there’s a steady throng of Warren supporters peeping in and using statements of opinion made by Ohio barbarian to decide if they will support Sanders in  the general is also an unprovable speculation.

                What’s more, I’m pretty sure you don’t believe this. This is the same silencing tactic we saw from Clinton supporters in ’16; “Bernie supporters better watch their fucking mouths and fawn appropriately else it’s their fault I won’t support Bernie!”

                No one gives a fuck. If Warren supporters want to take someone on this backwater village saying “Warren is weak” and decide they will never support Bernie over that? Fine. Go for it, knuckleheads.

    • #244319
      The Red Menace
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,097

      From the article,

      Trump is as much a symptom as a cause of this sad turn of events, but thanks in part to the bad example he sets, as president of what is still the world’s only superpower, authoritarian politics is taking hold the world over – in Russia, Turkey, Egypt, Brazil, India, Hungary, Poland, and the Philippines, among others. Too bad for the people who live in those places that these are countries in which liberal norms are notoriously less secure than in the US or the UK.

      If all politics really were local, illiberal backsliding could be more easily isolated, minimizing the harm. But politics is not nearly local enough. And since efforts to derail progressive initiatives in the United States have, if anything, intensified of late, and since it is widely believed that the British election is of at least some relevance to American leftists pondering how best to proceed, it is of paramount importance to learn whatever constructive lessons we can from what happened to Corbyn and the Labor Left.

      The trouble that is so often missed is that liberalism does not oppose fascism. never has, never will. Liberalism is entirely about retaining stability and maintaining status for its adherents. it simply has no answer to fascism, which promises those very same things through authoritarian governance and caste systems. Every “liberal democracy” exists at the point of a fulcrum, to either tip left or right, socialism or fascism… and most liberals would rather have fascism, because it promises to maintain their comfort and egos.

      • #244371
        MizzGrizz
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 3,152

        Absolutely,Red Menace.

        Your analysis of the professional class is one hundred per cent correct.

        That’s why they are so willing to be the enforcers for the status quo,to serve in their bureaucracies,work in their banks and corporations,demand political correctness.

        Think Eichmann.

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