Admiral Loinpresser (239 posts)September 1, 2018 at 12:11 pm
Some bolshey-splainin’ for menshey Jimmy.
Bernie ought to be the Vegas-odds favorite for 2020, imo. He has the highest approval rating of all and that popularity means he is the prohibitive favorite to get the nomination, once he declares. The energy in his campaign will be fierce. Millions have been thirsting for this political war: to put Bernie in the White House. So the tens of millions who want Bernie include the lion share of progressives which makes each a Bolshevik, in the Russian lingual sense: “One of a majority.” Bernie 2020 is the bolshey position.
So Jimmy, I love you. You’re like the Will Rogers of our time. Maybe Will Rogers with issues. And I believe you are bolshey on Bernie. You want him in the WH, iirc. That is the only moral view, imo.
Since we are facing extinction, we have the greatest moral imperative of all time, namely save the planet on which we depend. Bernie was strong in fighting for a War on Carbon when he ran before. And he can be trusted to do what he says. Is he perfect? Far from it. His statements on McCain, RussiaGate and other irrelevant stuff are well known. And I wish he would be stronger on opposing militarism. But he is trustworthy, focused on real action on climate change and the most likely progressive to take the WH. So there is a moral imperative to align our actions on getting him elected in 2020 as the Democratic nominee. The fact is, in the highly likely event that he runs in this upcoming cycle, he will run as a Democrat first. Bernie may be our last, best hope for humanity. Because with him leading the world in the right direction for the first time, we may have a chance to avoid extinction, if it is not already too late. Nobody knows whether it is too late, so we all have a moral duty to fight like hell, as you are almost always doing.
But when you say Bernie is “sheep dogging” people into the Democratic Party, I think you are being counter-revolutionary and immoral. That is menshevik (minority). Bernie is going to announce this winter or early spring to keep Warren out and squelch the draft Warren stuff. It is not good for Bernie’s chances when you attack his reputation. He’s not misleading anybody. He is a man of his word. He said he would back the nominee and then he did it, although it was distasteful for him. He said he would continue to fight for the revolution and he has. He has dramatically shifted the debate on M4A and now a super majority of Americans want it. He beat the Donna Brazille gaggle at the DNC and won the right to strip the Super Delegates on the first ballot. Which means he is the favorite to win the nomination, the hostility of the corporate media and many or all state parties and the early CA primary notwithstanding. If Warren is out and Bernie is in, Bernie should win. And everybody has a duty to help him do just that.Pastiche, NothingcleverjustRay, closeupready and 13 othersOhio Barbarian, snot, cui bono, hopemountain, MistaP, 99thMonkey, Enthusiast, PADemD, eridani, Haikugal, Peace Patriot, Marym625, Mabus like thisThe RussiaGate narrative is unmitigated bullshit. The 2016 election was stolen by Kris Kobach via Operation CrossCheck. See Greg Palast for details.
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2 weeks ago #20
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2 weeks ago #42
2 weeks ago #49
Jan Boehmermann (5757 posts) (Reply to original post) September 1, 2018 at 2:14 pm
1. I agree with Jimmy's take on Bernie's "sheep dogging"……..
The DNC hasn’t changed its’ spots!
Admiral Loinpresser (239 posts) (Reply to Jan Boehmermann - post #1) September 1, 2018 at 2:29 pm
2. I don't think the corruption of the DNC is the issue.
To me, the issue is whether homo sapiens and other large vertebrates survive and how we deal with the apocalypse. Given that Bernie is our best shot to survive, I don’t think it is moral to say he is sheep dogging. First he isn’t. Second, he is our best chance to start saving the world, so we need to help him win.The RussiaGate narrative is unmitigated bullshit. The 2016 election was stolen by Kris Kobach via Operation CrossCheck. See Greg Palast for details.
Jan Boehmermann (5757 posts) (Reply to Admiral Loinpresser - post #2) September 1, 2018 at 2:46 pm
4. The DNC is not going to change…….and people are sick of them!
The people are ready for a revolution…… and Bernie Sanders is not giving it to them.
Admiral Loinpresser (239 posts) (Reply to Jan Boehmermann - post #4) September 1, 2018 at 3:32 pm
10. In the interest of nuance,
the DNC is *not* a monolith. A lot of people in the DNC, like Nomi Konst and that West Virginia woman who went on a hunger strike and hundreds of other voting DNC members, wanted to do away with the Super Delegates altogether, but they couldn’t get that. But a super majority of the DNC membership voted *for* the compromise and so no SDs on the first ballot. Given the financial realities of a modern presidential primary, and the fact that no convention has gone to a second prez ballot since 1952, that vote will likely be decisive in 2020. In other words, Bernie is not saddled with that yooge disadvantage he had last time. So given that vote, I think he is the clear favorite if Warren doesn’t get in. I don’t take a back seat to anybody in criticizing the DNC. Perez has to go, no later than July 2020. That will make the DNC much, much better when Keith Ellison (or whoever Bernie’s choice is then) comes in with orders to drain the swamp.The RussiaGate narrative is unmitigated bullshit. The 2016 election was stolen by Kris Kobach via Operation CrossCheck. See Greg Palast for details.
Jan Boehmermann (5757 posts) (Reply to Admiral Loinpresser - post #10) September 1, 2018 at 3:37 pm
Silver Witch (6876 posts) (Reply to Admiral Loinpresser - post #10) September 3, 2018 at 1:35 pm
37. So this will be the FIRST since 1952 that will go to a second vote..
Betting money on it.Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost~John Quincy Adams
SurrealAmerican (1339 posts) (Reply to Admiral Loinpresser - post #2) September 1, 2018 at 2:49 pm
5. To me, it all comes down to this question:
Which will take longer – transforming an existing party, or building a new one?
It’s a gamble either way.
Admiral Loinpresser (239 posts) (Reply to SurrealAmerican - post #5) September 1, 2018 at 3:14 pm
Nobody is really smart enough to know which path is better given our existentialist quandary. We are at war with the corporate rulers of the planet. They are comfortable driving us to extinction as an unintended consequence of their unending lust for profit. Their worldview deludes them into thinking that their wealth can insulate them from armageddon. Bernie is our best political weapon in this war. If we were running third party, I would join that party and work my ass off for him. Since he is running as a Democrat, I will be a Democrat and work my ass off for him, at least until November 2020. The we need to mobilize to lobby the hell out of him, like the left did to FDR in 1933.
Btw, I think there is a better way. I think tomorrow billions of people should organize to peacefully occupy Washington, Beijing, London, Paris, Riyadh, Moscow, etc., in order to disrupt the governmental function and demand radical policies to stop oil drilling, drastically reduce meat production, re-forestation, eliminating extreme wealth inequality, etc. But I don’t think that is going to happen. So our inability to fight collectively for our survival means we have to try for a sea change on the world order by any available means. That is where Bernie comes in, imo. He is our best shot.
Jan Boehmermann (5757 posts) (Reply to Admiral Loinpresser - post #8) September 1, 2018 at 4:33 pm
12. "Nobody is really smart enough to know which path is better…"
Oh? So we’ll watch Bernie get cheated again…..and again…..and again.
Screw that! Lucy pulls away the football once….. Next time Charlie Brown ignores the football and kicks Lucy in the face instead. Lucy will soon learn not to pull that trick again!
The DNC needs a kick in the face……… not sucked up to!
sadoldgirl (2831 posts) (Reply to Jan Boehmermann - post #12) September 1, 2018 at 4:42 pm
13. No, no, it goes much deeper than the DNC. The DNC will be ordered
by the Deep State to make sure that Sanders will lose. I don’t think
that the CIA or the MIC want to have another assassination. Thus they
“convince” the Dems to kick out even a very accommodating Sanders. I
think that Warren will be “persuaded” to run though.
Silver Witch (6876 posts) (Reply to Jan Boehmermann - post #12) September 3, 2018 at 1:39 pm
38. This this this this this this…
eridani (6212 posts) (Reply to SurrealAmerican - post #5) September 1, 2018 at 8:39 pm
15. Building an alternative to the Dems requires a lot of voter contact
Which means that people who are political and policy junkies need to spend lots of time talking to the vast majority who are not. The only serious GOTV operations run by third parties have been Richmond Ca Green-led coalition and Seattle’s Socialist Alternative.You've heard of the Good Witch of the North and the Wicked Witch of the West, right? I'm the Morally Ambiguous Witch of the Northwest.
hopemountain (2673 posts) (Reply to Admiral Loinpresser - post #2) September 2, 2018 at 2:24 pm
31. totally support admiral’s op
every bit of it is balanced & wise & puts forth the revolution’s platform.
further, the revolution is about us. not all of the narcissistic ego driven individuals (jimmy, whom – of late, seems to have gone off the rails for ratings, money, & ego stirring shit just to stir it). their intent is not much different than that of the self centeted orange glob in the wh.
sure, if one has a real or fact driven argument against the social, economic, & environmental justice platform of the revolution, bring it.
in my view, sheep calling bernie is not only weak, it is shortsighted and underhandedly attacks the platform & a movement, & the very ones who seek justice . “who’s side are you on?” – and why?"economic and environmental justice is spiritual work." ~ tom b. k. goldtooth .... only~love~prevails.
Silver Witch (6876 posts) (Reply to Admiral Loinpresser - post #2) September 3, 2018 at 1:34 pm
36. HomeSapiens time has come…
And if Bernie is willing to play with the DNC and DEMS there is little he can do so save us from the greedy and deniers that keep us from solving the problem.
I hope this not the new guilt plan for 2020 – because frankly I believe Mother Earth is within her right to shake us off like pesky fleas.
Admiral Loinpresser (239 posts) (Reply to Jan Boehmermann - post #1) September 1, 2018 at 10:10 pm
18. To Jan B., sadoldgirl and Blackspade:
apparently I can’t reply individually due to tech problems, so I’ll reply collectively here:
1. Jan B. regarding post #11, so I said immediately above post #11 that the DNC is not a monolith. This statement is objectively true. In responding, you reached into the lizard area of your brain and pulled out a snarky, nonsubstantive response: so it is OK to falsely smear Bernie by accusing him of sheepdogging, because…DNC? This reminds me of Hillbot lizard brains when they say “Hillary would have won because…Russians!” You have yet to use any logic or facts in responding.
2. Sadoldgirl at post #9, you claimed the real problem is “for all of us to rely on one man to change our system.” I disagree. I don’t think many people are doing what you claim. The progressive activists collectively (people working to get progressive Dems, Greens, DSA candidates, etc., elected in 2018) do not think of Bernie as a messiah. He is a vehicle for the revolution, a revolution that has been building since at least Occupy Wall Street. I talk to a lot of activists and most appreciate that the revolution can only succeed ultimately by action in the streets, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t work like hell to get a progressive in the WH in 2021 in order to optimize our chances of saving the world. Even in the larger base of pro-Bernie voters, I don’t think your claim is a big problem.
3. Blackspade at post #16, you say “Holding politicians feet to the fire is neither counter-revolutionary or immoral.” I consider you an ally and speaking in good faith, so I assume your problem is reading comprehension. If you go back and read the OP carefully, you will discover I never claimed or implied anything like your quoted language. In fact, I implied criticizing Bernie is fine, when based on legitimate criticisms.
My position is that a) putting Bernie in the WH in 2021 may be our last, best hope of avoiding human extinction. That is objectively a credible argument given the article I linked in the OP coupled with the assertion I made regarding Bernie’s unusually high credibility for a politician; b) everyone has a moral duty to be aligned with the goal of getting Bernie in the WH and I think that statement speaks for itself given that the threat of extinction is very real; and c) given that moral imperative, to falsely smear Bernie with the accusation of sheepdogging people into the Dem Party diminishes his chances somewhat and is therefore counter-revolutionary and immoral. I stand by that. Do you have anything to challenge a), b) or c)?
Jan Boehmermann (5757 posts) (Reply to Admiral Loinpresser - post #18) September 2, 2018 at 1:10 pm
28. Lizard brain vs. numbskull……… (-;
Bernie won’t be on the Democratic party ticket in 2020.
Albert Einstein famously said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
BillZBubb (3881 posts) (Reply to original post) September 1, 2018 at 2:36 pm
3. I don't know. I have no problem with people pointing out when Bernie errs.
I’ve certainly been disappointed lately, but if Bernie runs I’m all in for him.
I have no doubt the DNC will do everything in its power to make sure there is a second vote at the convention. Warren isn’t the only one they can trot out to deny Bernie delegates.
Bernie will get a plurality but not a majority of the delegates. Then comes the knife in back.DemExit! Don't give the Democrats a dime. Don't identify as a Democrat. Drop Democratic identification below 20%. Only then will they support true progressive policy. Until then, corporate money rules.
Admiral Loinpresser (239 posts) (Reply to BillZBubb - post #3) September 1, 2018 at 2:57 pm
I don’t have a problem with anyone criticizing Bernie. I do my share, especially about getting tougher on perpetual war and the military and intelligence budgets. But to say Bernie is sheepdogging, as in this context: “Bernie Sanders is a false prophet who is neither genuinely socialist, nor genuinely independent, according an article recently published in the World Socialist Review.” https://www.huffingtonpost.com/blake-fleetwood/bernie-sanders-is-a-faux-socialist-and-a-sheepdog_b_9292618.html
Anybody who has studied Bernie’s life should know that he is extremely honest, relative to almost any other US politician, including only a very few others like Barbara Lee. Sheepdogging implies he is dishonestly trying to steer people into the Dem Party as part of some nefarious conspiracy. That is categorically false. Maybe some may people say it in good faith, e.g. Jimmy Dore, but it is still false. And it is a smear. And in my view, it makes him less likely to win in 2020 and therefore, immoral, for the ecological reason given in the OP.
sadoldgirl (2831 posts) (Reply to Admiral Loinpresser - post #6) September 1, 2018 at 3:28 pm
9. The real problem is for all of us to rely on one man to change
our system,One, Bernie does not truly want to change it; two: He won’t be allowed
to run successfully. In that respect the article is just wrong. Jimmy is correct to criticize
him, if he sees that Bernie is doing or saying something, which contradicts what has been
called a “political revolution”. Sanders had the opportunity to stand up against the “fast
track” confirmation of 15 conservative judges, yet, he did not. Whether he made a bargain or not
we don’t know; however, we do know by now that the Dems cannot be trusted. We also know that he
will not join a new or different party. He said that often enough. In that sense, since he appears
to be that popular, the inference has to be the one Jimmy offered.
Again, in the end leaders will have to follow a movement, one politician cannot do it. The question
by now is: Is there still a movement?
Haikugal (7584 posts) (Reply to sadoldgirl - post #9) September 1, 2018 at 5:58 pm
14. Good points…Bernie stood in front of thousands and asked if w were ready for aONE FOR ALL AND ALL FOR ONE.
Robert From NC (538 posts) (Reply to sadoldgirl - post #9) September 2, 2018 at 12:48 pm
26. What do you mean by "Bernie does
not want change”? Are you saying you don’t believe a lot of the things that Bernie is for would help or go far enough? Also, how are they going to prevent him or any other progressive from running successfully? Sure the DNC will favor and work for someone else, but their help won’t be needed anyway, and how could they deny him the nomination if he gets the most votes? Maybe if it was very close and we have a runoff/recount situation like Florida in 2000, sure, but other than that, how could they steal the nomination? At least without a contested convention and superdelegates anyway, which would be suicide for the Dems.
One thing that should work in his or any other progressives favor is that there are probably going to be many candidates running in 2020, dividing up the vote, and no prohibitive favorite like Hillary in 2016. We just need to make sure that there is only 1 progressive candidate running for the presidency.
Nevertheless, I do agree with the sentiment that leaders will have to follow a movement, one politician can not do it alone. We can’t rely on one person."Socially Liberal, Fiscally Progressive" "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin "Formerly known here as Robert Thomas 85"
sadoldgirl (2831 posts) (Reply to Robert From NC - post #26) September 2, 2018 at 1:02 pm
27. Yes,, Sanders wants to change some things. but not our ghastly system,
He would like to go back to something like the FDR solutions, which we know
by now can be reversed. Just look at Glass- Steagall, which was happily
undone by Bubba.I have not heard Bernie talk about going back permanently
to paper ballots and hand counting, for instance, which is one of the most important
The party has claimed in court – and up to now successfully – that it is a private
entity, and can change the rules whenever and however. This gives them the power
to exclude a Bernie candidacy by whichever means they deem feasible. And he made it
very clear that he would only run within the Democratic arty system.
Robert From NC (538 posts) (Reply to sadoldgirl - post #27) September 2, 2018 at 1:22 pm
29. What solutions do you favor
then? All solutions/systems of governance/economics can be reversed or changed depending on who is in power. Just look at China and the former USSR for example, sure it was not what Marx had in mind, but those countries did change dramatically back over to private ownership of the means of production in a capitalistic society. There are many other examples throughout history of types of government and economic systems changing. Regardless, I will admit that I am someone who thinks FDR solutions are the best, but even if I didn’t, I would still happen to believe that FDR type solutions are the best that we can hope for from a left wing point of view in our country. Those solutions also did help people tremendously.
If the Democratic Party really does want to cheat Bernie or any other progressive out of the nomination or even prevent him from running, all I can say is they better be prepared to lose in 2020."Socially Liberal, Fiscally Progressive" "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin "Formerly known here as Robert Thomas 85"
sadoldgirl (2831 posts) (Reply to Robert From NC - post #29) September 2, 2018 at 2:19 pm
Marym625 (30745 posts) (Reply to original post) September 1, 2018 at 3:00 pm
7. On The Daily Radical
Thank you!Take Action #StopFCC https://www.battleforthenet.com/breaktheinternet/ "Once the decision was made to go into Iraq as an invader and occupier, it’s like our nation lost its conscience. And it has not yet gotten that conscience back." Madfloridian
Blackspade (4462 posts) (Reply to original post) September 1, 2018 at 8:47 pm
16. Holding politicians feet to the fire is neither counter-revolutionary or immoral
I like Bernie and will vote for him if he runs, but he doesn’t get a pass when he says or does things that are questionable.
joentokyo (1097 posts) (Reply to original post) September 1, 2018 at 9:24 pm
17. Bernie will never be selected as the president of the United States.
Anyone who believes a change in American governmental policies or that the yoke placed around the necks of the 99% by the corporatocracy will be removed as the result of an election probably believes in the tooth fairy.
John Prine provided the answer years ago:
“Blow up your TV, throw away your paper
Go to the country, build you a home
Plant a little garden, eat a lot of peaches
Try to find Jesus, on your own.”
Or, if you prefer, Voltaire in Candide says that “tending one’s own garden” is not only a private activity but also productive (1759)“Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.” ~Albert Einstein
Silver Witch (6876 posts) (Reply to joentokyo - post #17) September 3, 2018 at 1:46 pm
39. This I agree is the best plan..sans Jesus…
Coldmountaintrail (8493 posts) (Reply to joentokyo - post #17) September 3, 2018 at 9:14 pm
40. problem is, tending one's own garden requires one to have a garden to tend.
most people don’t, because most people don’t have the capital to buy land to plant on.
i.e., 40% of the population can’t pay an unexpected bill. remove what’s left of the social safety net and see that jack up to over 50%. only the upper middle class can tend their own gardens. maybe.
I realize it’s not literal language, but it still requires capital to enact even the spirit of the thing, for all but the madly enlightened. nothing like poverty, fear, danger to kill the spirit.
Admiral Loinpresser (239 posts) (Reply to original post) September 2, 2018 at 1:00 am
19. To joentokyo:
Hi Joe, I can’t reply in the usual way due to apparent tech difficulties, so I am doing this “out of order.” Generally I agree with you on most threads and consider you a comrade. I really want to know what you meant in post #17. I get your first statement. Apparently you believe that sinister forces would be able to prohibit Bernie either from getting the nomination or from winning the general. That is not beyond the realm of possibility. However, millions of us are dedicated to proving you wrong. In 1932, FDR was viewed as a class traitor and a threat to the American Establishment and yet it could not prevent him from being elected. If I believed the Establishment was omnipotent, I would agree with you and just give up on any plan of action. But I believe the American Establishment is neither monolithic, omniscient nor omnipotent. In every election for almost a century, every major party candidate has been acceptable to most of the American Establishment. But in 2016 that was not true. A clear majority of the Establishment wanted HRC and a minority wanted Trump, so the crumbling empire was caught off guard by a glitch in the process. The fact that Trump got elected, despite a concerted majority of the Establishment considering him dangerous or unacceptable, is one of many contradictions in a collapsing system. I also believe that as long as we exist as a species, there is a moral duty to mitigate and adapt to the changes due to climate change. I believe the best plan is to boycott Late Stage Capitalism corporations wherever possible (including corporate media) and organize the direct-action takeover of all major national capitols, with the demands outlined in my post #8 in this thread. Sort of an Occupy The World strategy. I hope we get enough woke people to make that happen in the near future but I’m not holding my breath. In the mean time, if/when Bernie announces that he is running, I am going to work for him, as will millions of others. That is the bolshey position, by Russian linguistic definition.
As to your second (compound) statement, I truly am not sure what you mean. Are you saying if Bernie is elected that there will not be radical changes in domestic federal policy? Such a claim is preposterous on its face, so perhaps you mean something else. With respect to the second clause concerning a yoke around the necks of the proletariat, I agree. Electing Bernie would not be a panacea, but it would be a damn good start. The political arena will not be decisive but it is highly relevant given that there has not been any leadership by heads of state, ever, on climate change. I believe that would change under Bernie and if he has a Congress with enough progressives in it, I believe he can pass M4A, $15, free college, etc. That may not remove the yoke, but that would indeed be a damn good start. I don’t believe one election will change everything. But anybody who doesn’t believe that the elections of 1932 and 1964 did not result in major changes in economic and social justice is a goddamn fool. Change is inevitable and right now radical change is probably coming sooner than we think. I remember clearly when the Soviet Union collapsed. Nobody was talking about it and then Gorby made some correct moral choices and allowed the Baltic states to withdraw and all of a sudden history changed radically.
As to the John Prine lyrics/Voltaire quote: first, having studied Voltaire a little, I believe he would side with me, i.e. that it is worth fighting for the survival of human beings and avoiding extinction. The extinction of most large fauna would probably be close to the worst of all possible worlds, in his view. As to John Prine, are you saying fatalism is the appropriate response to our dire circumstances? I really want to know. John can keep writing to Dear Abby as far as I’m concerned, because I have to keep fighting. As Chris Hedges recently put it, he isn’t fighting the fascist world order because he believes he will win. He is fighting them because they are fascists! That is my choice. If I were just to sit on the couch, I would get depressed and have self-contempt. When I fight the bastards, I am truly a free man and living the life I choose, rather than throwing in the towel, as the Koch brothers want everybody to do. You probably have a differing philosophy to explain what and why you do things. That is fine. Everyone must find their own answers. I am advocating that we fight the bastards as if our lives and the lives of the next seven generations depend on it, because I believe they do. So although I love Jimmy Dore, when he calls Bernie a liar and says he is sheepdogging my response is this: Jimmy, since you want Bernie to be president, why slander him with your lizard brain? Get rid of your sandbox politics and fight for him! If human extinction can still be avoided, it might require Bernie to win in 2020, so Jimmy, use your rational brain on this topic!!
I expected this OP to be controversial. I’m attacking a figure beloved figure on JPR. He is beloved here for good reason, but my attack is correct, imo. The people of JPR exhibit a high degree of critical thinking skills, but there is still plenty of lizard brain in evidence. People are stating that mysterious Deep State figures are controlling who runs for president by giving them orders (I’m not saying this about you). Anyone with a cursory knowledge of American politics knows this is absurd. Most candidates consider their funding sources in the donor class, look at polls, consult with their families, colleagues and advisors and then make a decision. Bernie is going through a similar process except he doesn’t have to worry about the donor class. But some people see me attacking Jimmy and immediately consult their lizard brain and go tribal. The real world is complex and nuanced, not cartoonish in the ways reflected upthread.
joentokyo (1097 posts) (Reply to Admiral Loinpresser - post #19) September 2, 2018 at 6:24 am
20. What I meant was as long as we participate in the system things will continue as
they are. The elections at the national level are fixed. There are no honest brokers involved.
The POTUS is a purely public relations office. Whether hated or loved he/she/it is there to distract us from the fact that the military/security/industrial/congressional/complex decides all and does all.
The best we can do is withdraw our participation. We are on a down hill slide to oblivion, and the powers that control the future care not because they think they can make some shekels in hell.
I guess to you that sounds cynical and defeatist, but I really don’t think voting in rigged elections is an answer.“Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.” ~Albert Einstein
Major Hogwash (4684 posts) (Reply to joentokyo - post #20) September 2, 2018 at 3:15 pm
32. If you really feel that way, then you surrender your voice to be heard.
Which is why I don’t agree with that particular point of view, which is nihilistic.
Apathy is the greatest threat to democracy, or to a democratic republic.Trump moya marionetka ~ Putin
Coldmountaintrail (8493 posts) (Reply to Major Hogwash - post #32) September 3, 2018 at 9:18 pm
Enthusiast (15314 posts) (Reply to original post) September 2, 2018 at 6:29 am
21. I don't know what to do besides supporting Bernie.
He’s far from perfect. I will acknowledge that.
Powerful forces are aligned against Bernie or anyone that would promote the interests of the planet or regular American citizens. If not Bernie what viable alternative is there? There are none."I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country." Thomas Jefferson
joentokyo (1097 posts) (Reply to Enthusiast - post #21) September 2, 2018 at 6:41 am
22. Judging by his behavior at the convention, I have begun to think that either the
movers and shakers in the party have something to blackmail him with, or they threatened harm to him and his wife. He seemed quite shaken when he came out to endorse their worst choice candidate and to ask his people to support her when there was no chance in hell they ever would do so.
By the way, I hope my analysis in previous reply is 100% wrong. I just think that the corrupt powers that are in control can control the elections. I certainly don’t recommend violent revolution which just replaces one set of bullies with another.“Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.” ~Albert Einstein
MistaP (10209 posts) (Reply to joentokyo - post #22) September 2, 2018 at 11:12 am
24. but that was when the Establishment was both on the verge of total victory
and horrified that it might slip away by the skin of its teeth: Brazile was knocking on doors and thinking of calling in Biden; the authoritarian shit we saw at Philly (turning off lights, arranged mobs) wasn’t just from their tyrannical machine-pol instincts (not to dismiss that, the last time I saw a meeting that authoritarian it blew up Hosnian) but desperation–they had to get to the vote and to his endorsement to tie the knot
problem is nobody on this thread’s really wrong, we just have to work out a solution that can fit all sides of the debate–it’s like waterskiing: that’s the Sanders Difference, that the people backing him are treated as adults rather than mushrooms
sadoldgirl (2831 posts) (Reply to joentokyo - post #22) September 2, 2018 at 11:17 am
25. No,I think that your analysis is correct. I would just add the
corporation/Wall Street components; after all “Check out the money” is
the basic rule. Of course, all of their efforts may prove to get a serious
disappointment once the Petra-Dollar is worth nothing. When that happens
all bets are off.
99thMonkey (4677 posts) (Reply to original post) September 2, 2018 at 6:58 am
23. You state your case well Admiral. It is well worth considering, deeply.
thank you for sparking this great conversation.
Like someone once said, “when everyone it thinking just alike, no one is thinking very much”.“The manufacturing aristocracy which is growing up under our eyes is one of the harshest which ever existed in the world; but at the same time it is one of the most confined and least dangerous. Nevertheless the friends of democracy should keep their eyes anxiously fixed in this direction; for if ever a permanent inequality of conditions and aristocracy again penetrate into the world, it may be predicted that this is the channel by which they will enter.” ~Alexis De Tocqueville (1835)
FugitiveBirdie (2021 posts) (Reply to original post) September 2, 2018 at 5:04 pm
33. One's opinion is just that
I respect Jimmy Dore’s opinion, and he may be right. But it may also be part of a strategy.
Those who are not quite woke yet need a jolt of reality and I think Jimmy Dore is giving it to them with the sharp statement about sheep-dogging.
On the other hand Bernie needs to appeal to the woke and non-woke alike. The non-woke expect Bernie to work within the system to win a position of power. Not to just run off with the ball and start a new party. The reasonable non-woke heard already that something odd happened during the 2016 primary and will join the woke in having their eyes wide open next time.
Should they see that things truly go off the rails again with their own eyes, that will be the time that a majority of Democrats will favor starting a new party and leaving the old party behind. Without this we will simply be a splinter of the Democratic Party with only the power to make it lose (and we already know they are fine with that).
I always said we don’t get to start a new party before we made every last attempt to reform the old one or destroy it in trying.
I wanted to see Bernie accept the nomination of the Green party in July 2016, but that was just me. The other 75% of the population would have thought that is a sore loser!
It would have been a three way race with Trump, Hillary and Bernie. Trump would have won and we taken the blame. Instead they have had to out their whole criminal cabal trying to deflect their blame for losing to their chosen rival.
We have to make the case to everyone, which is more important than one person’s opinion.
Admiral Loinpresser (239 posts) (Reply to original post) September 2, 2018 at 6:50 pm
34. For FugitiveBirdie:
I assume you know from other posts that I’ve lost the ability to reply directly to anyone, but am saying it again, just in case.
Your post #33 is spot on, imo. I don’t mean to single anyone out, because I think there have been many incisive posts discussing the complex morality and the existential crisis we face. But your post touches on a lot of issues. Although I don’t think third party is the way to go yet, if Bernie decides to do so later because he gets locked out, then I will definitely follow his lead. Alternatively, if Bernie doesn’t run for some reason, I would be willing to support a nominee like Tulsi Gabbard, I could enthusiastically support her, because she is also committed to the politics of existential survival. Warren would pose a more interesting question because I don’t believe she is committed to the politics of survival. She is too cautious and climate change is not as high a priority as the first tier potential candidates (Bernie, Tulsi or Barbara Lee).
I agree that there may be a silver lining to the current third party effort. For example, the vote to eliminate Super Delegates on the first ballot may have been bolstered by the fear of what would have happened had they not done so. In Animal House, John Belushi’s frat was placed on “Double Secret Probation.” That is the status of the Dem Party in my view right now, and even that is only because Bernie will run first as a Dem. Otherwise, there would be little rationale for supporting a leadership which remains fundamentally corrupt. For the record, I voted for Stein in the general (since HRC, Trump and Gary Johnson all represented various flavors of the politics of death), then I was part of DemExit in 2016, and finally part of DemEnter in 2017 due to a Chicago progressive conference where Nina Turner and Bernie presented a vision where the current insurgency in the Dem Party could save it from the electoral and moral catastrophe which it has become. Key to that is a trustworthy progressive winning the nomination, replacing Perez with Keith Ellison or another suitable replacement, with orders to go in and drain the DNC swamp regarding the parasitic consultants, financial and procedural transparency, etc.
So now that the first ballot SD hurdle has been eliminated, Bernie should be able to win, even having to once again fight the ACM, most or all state parties, voter suppression, etc. One thing Jimmy has not spent nearly enough time on is focusing on Kobach and his presidential commission to strip as many likely Dem voters as possible from the rolls. He stripped over a million in the last cycle and that number is now at two million, according to Palast. The actual number of registered voters in America is actually *declining,* Palast said recently. That is because they are stripping voters faster than all efforts to register new voters. And of course in most states they don’t even count mail in ballots and/or provisional ballots, because the ACM will declare a winner on election night and then the officials in charge in a given state then shrug, stonewall and usually defeat any litigious challenge with a Republican judge.
Silver Witch (6876 posts) (Reply to original post) September 3, 2018 at 1:32 pm
35. Bernie is completely and totally“sheep dogging” people into the Democratic Party
He even spoke at McCain’s death party and said he liked McCain and they were friends. IF that is not hawking for the Dems – nothing is. I gues I misunderstood his goals and dreams and got tricked yet again….bummer.
Ohio Barbarian (10893 posts) (Reply to Silver Witch - post #35) September 4, 2018 at 7:39 am
42. It is a longstanding American political tradition to say nice things about one's
political adversaries when they die. Respect for one’s political opponents is necessary for a peaceful handover of power, and it works both ways; IOW, it’s an essential component of representative democracy. That is all Bernie and AOC did when they said respectful things about John McCain. It is absolutely meaningless from a political policy perspective; IOW, it has nothing to do with what Bernie actually wants to see happen.
There is an annoyingly strong tendency of Americans of all political stripes to see things in absolutist terms that only serves to keep We The People divided and the ruling kleptocracy in control. IMO, you, and many others here, are making much ado about absolutely nothing.Ignorance is the foundation of tyranny.
Illegal Smile (530 posts) (Reply to Ohio Barbarian - post #42) September 4, 2018 at 5:23 pm
45. You can't see how praise of McCain could rub someone the wrong way?
The man caused a great deal of damage in his life and said some unforgivable things. Don’t expect everyone to forgive and forget, that’s seeing things in absolutist terms.
I know there’s a lot of stuff we do as a society because we do that stuff, that doesn’t make everyone OK with it always, sometimes the rituals hurt for reasons that are also hurtful to even talk about. It’s not compassionate to slam people who are having a particular problem with a blatantly public ritual, a little understanding would go a long way to keeping the friction down.
Ohio Barbarian (10893 posts) (Reply to Illegal Smile - post #45) September 5, 2018 at 3:55 pm
48. I understand it. Why do you think I hardly watched any news at all for a week?
I didn’t want to see and hear that shit. I just don’t think it’s worth getting upset over when some politician does what polite traditions of old-fashioned civility requires of him on this specific occasion. It’s…American political ritual. I think it’s pretty harmless in the long run.Ignorance is the foundation of tyranny.
Silver Witch (6876 posts) (Reply to Ohio Barbarian - post #42) September 4, 2018 at 5:56 pm
47. You and I are usually in agreement.
On this one I must respectfully disagree. He could have remained silent or stated the factMcCain was a long serving Congressman. End of sentence. But he went on and on and on about how swell McCain was and how they were FRIENDS. FRIENDS.
Sorry if I go to a funeral it is out of respect for the dead. It is not necessary then to stand and state bald-faced lies about the man.
Death does not erase evil
Ohio Barbarian (10893 posts) (Reply to Silver Witch - post #47) September 5, 2018 at 3:58 pm
49. Ah, hel, SW, do you think I would have actually gone to McCain's funeral? Nah,
I didn’t think much of him and never would have voted for him. To me, this is just American political ritual, though they really have exaggerated it in the last 20 or so years, haven’t they? I understand being sick of hearing nice things about McCain spoken in reverent tones; that’s why I avoided TV news for about a week.
I just don’t think any politician participating in this ritual means anything of significance, that’s all.Ignorance is the foundation of tyranny.
Silver Witch (6876 posts) (Reply to Ohio Barbarian - post #49) September 6, 2018 at 8:32 pm
53. Hear you OH and believe you are accurate…
Sorry I am tightly wrapped of late.
Ohio Barbarian (10893 posts) (Reply to Silver Witch - post #53) September 7, 2018 at 2:30 pm
54. I empathize. Marijuana works for me when I get like that.Ignorance is the foundation of tyranny.
Ohio Barbarian (10893 posts) (Reply to original post) September 4, 2018 at 8:08 am
43. A most logical and powerful teleologically moral argument. I like it. Thank
The discussion is most enlightening as well, in that it brings out some of the divides that exist on this site in particular and on the American Left in general. There’s the whole Deep State thing rearing its nonsensical CT head, going all the way back to the false premise that the CIA or someone like them assassinated JFK because he was going to destroy them and leave Vietnam if re-elected, in spite of absolutely no evidence in declassified government records to support that claim; I’m with Noam Chomsky on that one and will elaborate at length later.
Then there’s the fatalistic assertion that humanity is already doomed and in fact deserves to die off, the Great Extinction naturally occurring after its proponents peacefully depart this mortal coil after living their morally comfortable lives above the nasty political and economic fray. I’m a Norse pagan, so I totally get fatalism, but to sit back and say that humanity as a whole deserves extinction is in itself immoral to my way of thinking.
If there’s anything you missed, it is that the DNC rules changes enable the DNC to rule, on its own, that a candidate is not a Democrat and therefore can’t be nominated. (I know that’s a Fox News story, but reasonably accurate). This, I shall call it the nuclear option, could still be used to deny Bernie the nomination on that basis. To do that, however, would be not only unprecedented, but very public, and would IMO guarantee the destruction of the DNC itself in short order. That little change got very little attention, and the fact that Bernie won the Democratic nomination for Senate without even trying may negate it. We shall see.
I agree with you that Bernie Sanders and the movement that he started are our best hope right now, and that, at the moment, the Democratic Party is the best vehicle for obtaining real political power. Personally, I don’t like either of those facts, especially the second one, all that much; but there it is. If this movement fails, then there is always the alternative of violent revolution and civil war, which the effects of climate change and kleptocratic capitalist collapse may trigger anyway; who knows? I certainly don’t.
At this time, I support your position, for whatever that’s worth, if an admiral will accept the support of an old enlisted sailor, that is.Ignorance is the foundation of tyranny.
closeupready (2768 posts) (Reply to original post) September 4, 2018 at 8:10 am
44. I'll vote for Bernie if he is the DNC nominee – otherwise, I'll write in
Mickey Mouse. Unless of course, somehow miraculously someone is found like Bernie or who I feel can effectively implement progressive changes.
I am 100% serious about that. No more voting for a corporate sellout, which is nearly every single Democratic official, including Elizabeth Warren.The opinions and views expressed herein are solely those of the author.
Illegal Smile (530 posts) (Reply to original post) September 4, 2018 at 5:53 pm
46. I think he's telling the truth as he sees it and isn't about to stop
I watched an interview Dore did on Rogan, he talks some about his motivations. He’s either genuine or one of the best actors I’ve ever seen, take your pick.
Jimmy has a strong sense of the absurd, the way he just stops and looks at the camera waiting for you to reach your own conclusion.
That being said he seems to think that the fire department internet throttling issue had to do with net neutrality when it really doesn’t directly. But then practically everyone thinks that but he’s supposed to be an independent thinker.
U4ikLefty (461 posts) (Reply to original post) September 5, 2018 at 7:56 pm
50. So when Bernie loses (gets screwed out of) the nomination
will you urge us to vote for the Dem candidate?Proud to be a spoiled brat
Admiral Loinpresser (239 posts) (Reply to original post) September 5, 2018 at 8:35 pm
51. Reply for U4ikLefty:
Re post #50: Nope. If Bernie doesn’t get the nomination (or Tulsi), I have said many times that we should burn the Dem Party to the ground. I voted for Jill in the general because I will never vote for a corporatist war criminal. Nature bats last. We need a progressive prez to team up with Corbyn when he becomes PM, to avoid the path of extinction we are currently on.
U4ikLefty (461 posts) (Reply to Admiral Loinpresser - post #51) September 5, 2018 at 9:21 pm
I agree about not voting for a hawk or neo-lib,we need a true progressive.
I think Jimmy is correct in the sense that Bernie is keeping the Dems close to ensure his ability to run in 2020. He has to play ball, and sometimes it makes me feel dirty (pushing the Russia narrative being a good example). As much as I love Bernie, I fear the cards are stacked against him if he runs as a Dem. I really hope that I am wrong and he pulls out the nomination.Proud to be a spoiled brat