The ‘Lab-Leak’ Theory Is Not Of Equal Value – Promoting It Furthers The China Hawks

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    • #425859
      ZimInSeattle
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,461

      It is a sad experience to see that several writers I like and often agree with are now propping up a Russiagate like conspiracy theory about the origin of the novel coronavirus.

      Let’s start with Kit Klarenberg who, in a lengthy cherry picking ‘lab escape theory’ essay, quotes approvingly from a Technology Review piece:

      [Computer modeling] generated a startling result: the spike proteins studding SARS-CoV-2 bound more tightly to their human cell receptor, a protein called ACE2, than target receptors on any other species evaluated. In other words, SARS-CoV-2 was surprisingly well adapted to its human prey, which is unusual for a newly emerging pathogen.

      Huh?

      ~snip~

      Said differently:

      If the question is “are both hypotheses possible?” the answer is yes. Both are possible. If the question is “are they equally likely?” the answer is absolutely not. One hypothesis requires a colossal cover-up and the silent, unswerving, leak-proof compliance of a vast network of scientists, civilians, and government officials for over a year. The other requires only for biology to behave as it always has, for a family of viruses that have done this before to do it again. The zoonotic spillover hypothesis is simple and explains everything. It’s scientific malpractice to pretend that one idea is equally as meritorious as the other. The lab-leak hypothesis is a scientific deus ex machina, a narrative shortcut that points a finger at a specific set of bad actors. I would be embarrassed to stand up in front of a room of scientists, lay out both hypotheses, and then pretend that one isn’t clearly, obviously better than the other.

      Besides the hazy science, there is an undeniable political aspect to this argument. When violence against Asian people in the US is spiking, it’s naive at best and violent gaslighting at worst to pretend that supporting an evidence-free hypothesis that clearly adds fuel to the idea that China inflicted COVID-19 upon the world, that they did this to us, is noble scientific dispassion. There’s a choice being made here between two ideas — one that falls neatly within the world of biology, and the other that knots together conspiracy theory, political intrigue, and xenophobia.

      More: https://www.moonofalabama.org/2021/05/the-lab-leak-theory-is-not-of-equal-value-promoting-it-furthers-the-china-hawks.html

      "Poverty is the parent of revolution and crime" - Aristotle "The more I see of the moneyed peoples, the more I understand the guillotine" - George Bernard Shaw "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, will make violent revolution inevitable" - JFK "If wars can be started by lies, they can be stopped by truth." ~ Julian Assange #SurviveAndRevolt

    • #425862
      Bearian
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 907

      Why was it closed then reopened then closed again?

      • #425866
        Cold Mountain Trail
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 12,932

        Following the cease and desist order from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) in which the USAMRIID laboratory at the base was shut down for at least two ‘breaches of containment”, the announcement to resume operations on a “limited scale” was made on November 25, 2019. The two breaches reported to the CDC by USAMRIID staff demonstrated failures of biosafety level 3 and 4 protocols in the Army laboratory to “implement and maintain containment procedures sufficient to contain select agents or toxins”, however the commanding officer of USAMRIID Colonel E. Darrin Cox states that “breach is a loaded word… no one was exposed to any agents or toxins”.[29]

        After approximately eight months of closure and restrictions, the USAMRIID BSL-4 lab had been authorized to resume full operational status by April 2020, to the applause of Maryland lawmakers including Senator Ben Cardin, who stated “it is a relief to have USAMRIID fully operational with the current COVID-19 outbreak”‘.[30][31]

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Detrick

         

        Veterans Gate Fort Detrick is open Mon-Fri from 6 am – 2 pm. at which time it closes to all traffic.  Nallin Farm Gate and Old Farm gates will remain operational for entry and exit. Nallin Farm Gate will be open 24/7 at Fort Detrick and any vetting operations at Fort Detrick will occur at Nallin Gate.

        Old Farm Gate is open Monday – Friday from 6 a.m. – 6 p.m. and on weekends from 9 a.m. – 6 p.m.

        At Forest Glen, Linden Lane Gate is closed until further notice. Brookville Gate will remain open 24/7 and any vetting operations at Forest Glen will take place at the Brookville Gate.

        https://home.army.mil/detrick/index.php

    • #425865
      Pam2
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 10,553

      “that clearly adds fuel to the idea that China inflicted COVID-19 upon the world, that they did this to us, “

      No, it doesn’t. Nobody said it was leaked intentionally. Bottom line- the pandemic started in Wuhan, there is a virology lab there. The possibility of a leak needs to be investigated. It’s nothing like Russiagate which was made up out of nothing by the DNC.

       

       

    • #425868
      soryang
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,314

      It wasn’t a cover up so much as an information war. There were scientists who challenged the suppression of the lab leak hypothesis from the very beginning. So it was never some airtight “coverup” so much as a lack of scientific or forensic evidence for either hypothesis. One of the Chinese foreign ministry spokespersons remarked yesterday, that the US isn’t sincere in its demands for a transparent investigation; if it was it would open up Fort Dietrick lab records and those of other biological warfare labs to international inspection. It’s really unrealistic to think that either nation would subject itself to foreign intrusion like this. In the case of China, especially so, considering its experience with colonial powers humiliating it for over a century.

      惑世誣民 혹세무민

    • #425870
      NV Wino
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 9,235

      It has been my theory all along that there was an accidental leak at the Wuhan Lab, which we know was doing research on that type of virus. By the time we discovered the deadliness of the virus, everyone went into “the dog ate my homework” mode, and without transparency from the Chinese, we can only speculate and theorize about the specific origin.

      “As we act, let us not become the evil that we deplore.” Barbara Lee
      “Politicians and pro athletes: The only people who still get paid when they lose.” William Rivers Pitt

    • #425871
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,384

      “It is a sad experience to see that several writers I like and often agree with are now propping up a Russiagate like conspiracy theory about the origin of the novel coronavirus.”

      Please show me what the two actually have in common.  I’ll wait.

      And here we come to the real mountain of horse shit:

      “Besides the hazy science, there is an undeniable political aspect to this argument. When violence against Asian people in the US is spiking, it’s naive at best and violent gaslighting at worst to pretend that supporting an evidence-free hypothesis that clearly adds fuel to the idea that China inflicted COVID-19 upon the world, that they did this to us, is noble scientific dispassion. There’s a choice being made here between two ideas — one that falls neatly within the world of biology, and the other that knots together conspiracy theory, political intrigue, and xenophobia.”

      No.  These are separate issues.  There has always been violence and xenophobia – and during the pandemic, yes, they have grown worse.  There are certainly some who blame Asians, or Chinese people in general.  Those people are idiots.  They were always idiots – and they were always going to idiotically find blameless people to bully, hurt and harass.  That is what idiot bullies do.

      It is not evidence free.  Simply on the surface – as Pam2 pointed out, there is a virology lab in Wuhan.  There were Doctors working for this lab who were quite specifically working on gain of function research that quite specifically had to do with coronavirus.  They were attempting to further enable transmission.  Now perhaps that is all just a ridiculously huge coincidence.  Perhaps it is coincidence that there was, almost immediately following the outbreak of covid19 – an enormous PR campaign to convince everyone that China was blameless, that they had no fault, that it could not possibly have been a lab leak.  At the very least, anyone who suggested otherwise was ruthlessly mocked and belittled.  Now we have learned that there were at least three people who worked at the Wuhan lab, who became ill with covid19 like symptoms in November of 2019.  Perhaps that is a huge coincidence too.

      Perhaps it is a huge coincidence that Dr Shi’s records (an individual working on precisely the kind of research applications that may have caused this) were immediately sealed.  Perhaps it is a huge coincidence that China was remarkably more prepared for this virus than any other Nation.

      When you throw enough “huge coincidences” together, it reads like: BULL SHIT

      Honestly, I’m disappointed in myself that I didn’t put that together sooner.  That I believed the people telling us it was all just some accident of nature – and not something that people should have been leaving the fuck alone, instead of trying to manipulate.  Hey, perhaps its a huge coincidence, too, that Fauci has been an ardent supporter of gain of function research.

      Sorry, too many coincidences for me.  It is not gas lighting to ask these questions, nor to mention the many seemingly huge coincidences.  It has nothing to do with being a China hawk.  It has to do with learning the truth.  I am certainly not alone in thinking that, if it was indeed caused by a lab leak, the U.S. was almost certainly involved.  Officials throughout the world who head massive organizations were almost certainly involved.  It would not require every doctor, researcher and government official being in on it.  Only a few at the top to manipulate and distribute the information as they saw fit.  Much like with every type of “state run” media.  Like ours.

      So, no.  It is not an evidence free hypothesis, even if you simply apply your common sense and a very little bit of critical thinking.  It may not be proven as fact – yet.  All those huge coincidences though, they add up.  In order to do something about this kind of problem – before it happens again, it might help to be aware of it, to have a firmer control or international agreement that… well, fuck, maybe we shouldn’t be trying to create these things that kill millions of people, that we can neither cure nor control.  IF – and I will stress the – IF – because I am not completely convinced yet – but if this is indeed a lab leak, then that needs to be known in order for the appropriate actions to be taken.

      Of course those responsible would lie about it.  Of course the leading officials would lie about it – they do not want us looking too closely at what they actually do.  Therefor, every single one of them should come under a microscope.  I am well past the point where I would consider trusting these officials at their word.

    • #425879
      JonLP
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,584

      Crossfire Hurricane was the code name for the counterintelligence investigation undertaken by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) from July 31, 2016, to May 17, 2017, into links between Russian officials and associates of Donald Trump and “whether individuals associated with [his] presidential campaign were coordinating, wittingly or unwittingly, with the Russian government’s efforts to interfere in the 2016 U.S. presidential election“.[1] Trump was not personally under investigation until May 2017, when his firing of FBI director James Comey raised suspicions of obstruction of justice.[2]

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossfire_Hurricane_(FBI_investigation)

      Also Robert Mueller isn’t the DNC either. In fact he is a Republican.

      I liked this article though. Read further down and it criticizes both Greenwald & Dore.

      Let this radicalize you rather than lead you to despair - Mariame Kaba

      Like many public systems, GOP want to rip the battery out + say the whole car doesn’t work, so they can sell it for parts - AOC

    • #425881
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,384

      (1331) Robert Mueller on Iraq War and WMD’s – YouTube

      Nope, he’s not with the DNC.  He’s with a different corrupt acronym.

    • #425911
      closeupready
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,494

      Rigorously examine all plausible theories advanced?  Are you for REAL?  It is absolutely plausible that China’s lab in Wuhan leaked a virus under examination there, with sloppy safeguards, lack of security.

       

      The opinions and personal views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and should never be taken seriously.

    • #425914
      closeupready
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,494

      That’s a more general point.  And you’ve posted links to that pro-DNC Sludge Report more than once, unfortunately.

      But people will take it seriously, if it confirms their biases.

      The opinions and personal views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and should never be taken seriously.

    • #425921
      Cold Mountain Trail
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 12,932

      Having read the MoA piece, I’ll say that the fact that ‘journalist’ Nicholas Wade’s promotion of the lab leak theory doesn’t inspire confidence.

      Wade used to be a science writer (Science, NYT), now retired and recently put out a book (A Troublesome inheritance) that explains various facets of human development and abilities (including e.g. IQ) as genetically based, shades of Charles Murray (The Bell Curve) who, unsurprisingly, praises Wade’s book — which cites Murray, of course.  Wade was prep school at Eton y’all.  The playing fields of Eton.  From there to Cambridge. 

      Born in the incubators of privilege.  Where, you know, folks tend to intermarry, leading to phenomena like the Hapsburg lip and congenital idiocy.

      So we’re back to “Some folks are dumber than others, they can’t help it, it’s genetic” — every 20-30 years the same schisse comes back like a bad penny, to infect those who haven’t yet developed immunity to schisse.

       

      Wade argues in another book (The Faith Instinct) that religious behavior evolved via natural selection….it’s selected for because it benefits the group.  So all you JPR folks saying religion makes people kill each other…take that from elite brainster ‘science’ person Nicholas Wade!  No, it’s naturally selected for and ensures survival!!

       

    • #426018
      eridani
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 11,670

      Unless possibly they were thinking about possible benefits of reducing their own population.

      Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

    • #426020
      Cold Mountain Trail
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 12,932

      I’m thinking that if the chinese stats on cases are correct, they’ve been able to do a way better job containing the virus than the US has.

      That seems to conflict with the supposedly (some claim) sloppy standards and lack of containment/security in their biolabs.

      https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/china/

      316 current active cases in the whole country, 91K cases during the whole pandemic. <5K dead.  Case counts more or less flat since Mar 2020.

      Doesn’t make sense to me they’d run labs so differently.

      But I guess people’s biases are different depending on their politics.

    • #426046
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 24,441

      Very basically, he assumes that when anything bad happens, that the CIA or some other American, or at least Western, intelligence agency is behind it. If not the intelligence agencies, then the corporations buying off corrupt government officials. It’s always Western imperialism at fault, which means that the rivals of that imperialism, such as the Russians and Chinese, are always innocent and have the best of motives at heart.

      IOW, he’s an example of typical American dualism. If the American government is bad, then its rivals must be good. It’s a pattern that goes back since I’ve been seeing people post this guy. This time, the Chinese must be entirely innocent because it’s all some deep, dark, CIA-or similar agency plot.

      It ain’t necessarily so.

      Never let your morals stop you from doing the right thing.--Isaac Asimov

      The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them.--Julius Nyerere

    • #426059
      ZimInSeattle
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,461

      posts, even those items I may post here. But it makes for good conversation. My view on these new investigations into the source of of the corona virus is a lot more about casting blame & sticking it to China than finding the truth. Whether it be a natural occurrence, which I believe, or it was lab leak is pretty much irrelevant at this point. For all we know, or will ever know, the virus could have been brought from Ft. Detrick to China  by CIA and purposely infected people there so as to make it seem like it originated there.

      For what it’s worth @closeupready & @ohiobarbarian some of the independent journalists that follow MoA include Sy Hersh, Aaron Mate, Matt Taibbi, Caitlyn Johnstone, Patrick Lawrence, Dan Cohen, Anya Parympal, Kevin Gosztola, Scott Ritter, Rania Kalek, and many others. Whether they think MoA is ‘authoritative’, IDK. Maybe they follow just for shits & giggles.

      "Poverty is the parent of revolution and crime" - Aristotle "The more I see of the moneyed peoples, the more I understand the guillotine" - George Bernard Shaw "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, will make violent revolution inevitable" - JFK "If wars can be started by lies, they can be stopped by truth." ~ Julian Assange #SurviveAndRevolt

      • #426064
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 24,441

        Just pointing out a bias he clearly has, that’s all.

        Never let your morals stop you from doing the right thing.--Isaac Asimov

        The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them.--Julius Nyerere

      • #426069
        closeupready
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 3,494

        I would reiterate OB’s view that MofA has a ‘hate America first!’ bias to which I do not subscribe – never have, never will.

        On your rhetorical point that the virus could have been implanted in China by the CIA as a false flag operation …  did you consider the possibility that China has assets in the US who put that false flag operation in operation?

        The opinions and personal views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and should never be taken seriously.

    • #426082
      lownslow
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,237

      Everyone has biases. If you think you arent biased in some way,,,well,,,. Also, in my view america is the biggest shit stirrer in the world with the biggest propaganda machine of all time. Who else has 7-800 bases scattered everywhere? MoA is a good source. Mabye some of you have a pro america bias.

      • #426127
        Yanath
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 2,815

        Seeing wingnut talking points regurgitated here, can be really irritating at times, but you have to be willing to tolerate that shit.

    • #426083
      Pam2
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 10,553

      “Whether it be a natural occurrence, which I believe, or it was lab leak is pretty much irrelevant at this point. ”

      No, it’s not irrelevant. If it was a lab leak, they need to change what led to the leak so it doesn’t happen again.

       

    • #426084
      lownslow
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,237

      Whats really interesting, is we get to discuss  a “conspiracy theory” out in the open on the main page of jpr just because the cia controlled msm tells everyone its ok. And yes, im very aware of my own bias (of which there are many) The point is be aware of your biases and act accordingly. A Great Weekend to All!! 😆

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